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  #31  
Old September 4th, 2015, 02:23 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post


There is no good in war. Fall of Mughal empire was a result of inept later-mughal who followed Aurangzeb, in all essence, it was like fall of Mauryan empire, you want to down a squadron of Aircraft, just have an inept Wing commander as incharge. The last mughal was Bhahdur Shah Zafar.
this is typical secularization of history---where students nowadays are taught that the marathas and their contribution to history amounted to not much etc because they are hindus .

just do one thing---take out the marathas from history , and imagine post aurangzeb history of mughal empire without them . immediately the empire regains all its provinces south of delhi and becomes powerful . it is the marathas who above all contributed to the fall of the mughal empire , but today's historians deliberately want to eschew that part .
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  #32  
Old September 4th, 2015, 02:35 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
this is typical secularization of history---where students nowadays are taught that the marathas and their contribution to history amounted to not much etc because they are hindus .

just do one thing---take out the marathas from history , and imagine post aurangzeb history of mughal empire without them . immediately the empire regains all its provinces south of delhi and becomes powerful . it is the marathas who above all contributed to the fall of the mughal empire , but today's historians deliberately want to eschew that part .
btw, I don't remember reading much of Maratha history in high school, for sure we read in detail about the Mughals though.

Last edited by sarv_shaktimaan; September 4th, 2015 at 02:46 AM.
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  #33  
Old September 4th, 2015, 03:39 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post




The act of Shivaji and of Sikhs was more of civil disobedience by violent means as I understand it and so repercussions were in the same tone, equally violent.
so is it right to paint the british as villains ( as is painted in our history books ) when gandhiji launched civil disobedience movement against them , but if shivaji and sikhs launch civil disobedience against aurangzeb , it is aurangzeb who is great .

story same in both cases---but villains are only british . the reason being---they did not leave any minority behind to take care of their interests ; so they can be demonized .
on the other hand , mughals are painted as good rulers because they have left a huge and growing muslim minority to take care of their interests .

is there any greater proof of appeasement politics than this ??
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  #34  
Old September 4th, 2015, 04:16 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
this is typical secularization of history---where students nowadays are taught that the marathas and their contribution to history amounted to not much etc because they are hindus .

just do one thing---take out the marathas from history , and imagine post aurangzeb history of mughal empire without them . immediately the empire regains all its provinces south of delhi and becomes powerful . it is the marathas who above all contributed to the fall of the mughal empire , but today's historians deliberately want to eschew that part .
whatever -rization of history, the stated fact remain same.
Marthas contribution was as religious as mughals and had as political objectives as Mughals. Mughals were local people, as local as Marathas. Even if Marathas are in history Both Abdali and Nadirshah invaded India and massacared Delhi. Marathas took over the Mughal empire, the empire was led by inept ruler, if Aurangzeb had continued for another 50 years he would have had held empire together with no Abdali and Nadirshah daring to look at Delhi.
Marathas contribution is immense in revolt of 1857, no doubt on that, Tatya Tope, Nana Saheb, Rani Laxmi Bai etc were just heroes.

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Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan View Post
btw, I don't remember reading much of Maratha history in high school, for sure we read in detail about the Mughals though.
In CBSE High School, in 2001 when I was studying, Class X had Modern World history starting from Imperialism and ending in Cold war era.
This episode of history was in class VIII,First chapter about Later mughals and from 2-4 about this episode


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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
so is it right to paint the british as villains ( as is painted in our history books ) when gandhiji launched civil disobedience movement against them , but if shivaji and sikhs launch civil disobedience against aurangzeb , it is aurangzeb who is great .

story same in both cases---but villains are only british . the reason being---they did not leave any minority behind to take care of their interests ; so they can be demonized .
on the other hand , mughals are painted as good rulers because they have left a huge and growing muslim minority to take care of their interests .

is there any greater proof of appeasement politics than this ??

Don't put words in my mouth. I have nowhere stated that Aurangzeb was great person. I have talked only about his able administration and military generalship and little impact of his adversaries.

Gandhi launched civil disobedience but how many people got killed except Chauri Chuara, Mahatama had far reaching impact than Shivaji or Guru Gobind singh and his message was altogether new and simply wonderful.
Mughals were both good and bad just like any dynasty in the world.
Brits took away Indian wealth to England, where did Mughal take their wealth to? Brits created artificial famine in Bengal, what was the situation of Famine in Mughal India.
in just a generation of existence Indians want UK and US to treat them as naturalized citizen but a 6th generation mughal king was an outsider to right-wing hindu history.

tell me is there any greater proof of Hindu nationalistic jingoism that this.

The point which I always raised in this thread was, why our tax money is being used in something as flimsy as renaming roads and signpost instead of controlling price rise and our general troubles.

It looks good in Maharashtra to name VT as CST even though it is Victoria's rule which founded Bombay instead of Chattrapati Shivaji who even didn't know about Bombay. In context of Delhi, it is like renaming Red Fort as Pandav Mahal because Pandavs ruled from Delhi.

jeetIAF
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  #35  
Old September 4th, 2015, 05:46 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
if Aurangzeb had continued for another 50 years he would have had held empire together with no Abdali and Nadirshah daring to look at Delhi.

jeetIAF
how long was he supposed to live ?? he had already lived a long life . but the system he left was incapable of holding out after his death because he has wasted all the mughal treasury in a fruitless war on marathas . unlike akbar , who left a strong system behind , aurangzeb only left a weakened system behind . in his own life he was able to hold the empire together because of force of personality , but unlike akbar he was not able to leave behind a sustainable system for his successors .
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  #36  
Old September 4th, 2015, 05:50 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post


In CBSE High School, in 2001 when I was studying, Class X had Modern World history starting from Imperialism and ending in Cold war era.
This episode of history was in class VIII,First chapter about Later mughals and from 2-4 about this episode

the textbooks were changed around 1990 when the ram janmabhoomi movement cropped up . before that congress govts themselves used to authorise textbooks which painted aurangzeb as villain . i grew up in that era . but they were changed when the vote bank of congress was directly threatened by the rise of hindutva .
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  #37  
Old September 4th, 2015, 05:53 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
Marathas contribution is immense in revolt of 1857, no doubt on that, Tatya Tope, Nana Saheb, Rani Laxmi Bai etc were just heroes.
the textbooks only glorify maratha contribution against british because it is convenient to paint british as villains , but dont glorify maratha contribution against mughals because it is politically inconvenient to paint mughals as villains .
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  #38  
Old September 4th, 2015, 06:00 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
in just a generation of existence Indians want UK and US to treat them as naturalized citizen but a 6th generation mughal king was an outsider to right-wing hindu history.
the indians in UK and US want to adapt to the laws of the country , not change them or bend them according to their own will .

the sixth generation mughal king was enforcing jizya tax on the majority population of the country , and you want us to treat him on par with naturalised citizens of US and UK !!
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  #39  
Old September 4th, 2015, 06:16 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
in just a generation of existence Indians want UK and US to treat them as naturalized citizen but a 6th generation mughal king was an outsider to right-wing hindu history.
Will rop people living in India for generations first stop siding with Pakistanis, waving Paki flags, pay respect to India as motherland?
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  #40  
Old September 7th, 2015, 05:44 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
4. Aurangzeb pretty much held empire together, contained Shivaji in his hills and no abdali/Durrani had guts to attack India then
In whatever Sikh History i read in Classes 5 and 6, Aurangzeb is the number 1 villain. And Pakistani historians love both Aurangzeb and Abdali in equal measure. So, try praising Aurangzeb before some fellow Sardarjis.

I do vaguely remember reading Benazir Bhutto also commenting adversely on Aurangzeb (after all, Zia used the same mechanism to execute her father). i will see if i can pull that up.

My question is, who was the guy who named it Aurangzeb Road in the first place.

If i had my way though, i would rename it to 'More acceptable muslim Ruler' like say, Razia Sultan and rename Krishna Menon Marg as Abdul Kalam Marg.
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  #41  
Old September 7th, 2015, 07:00 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

Most roads around there are named in a pattern after all mughal and other rulers.. Tughlaq, Suri, etc
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  #42  
Old September 7th, 2015, 08:01 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by sgars View Post
In whatever Sikh History i read in Classes 5 and 6, Aurangzeb is the number 1 villain. And Pakistani historians love both Aurangzeb and Abdali in equal measure. So, try praising Aurangzeb before some fellow Sardarjis.

I do vaguely remember reading Benazir Bhutto also commenting adversely on Aurangzeb (after all, Zia used the same mechanism to execute her father). i will see if i can pull that up.

My question is, who was the guy who named it Aurangzeb Road in the first place.

If i had my way though, i would rename it to 'More acceptable muslim Ruler' like say, Razia Sultan and rename Krishna Menon Marg as Abdul Kalam Marg.
Jeetiaf is half Muslim. So your arguments may fall on deaf ears
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  #43  
Old September 7th, 2015, 08:44 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Jeetiaf is half Muslim. So your arguments may fall on deaf ears
May be half Muslim but definitely full sickular.
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  #44  
Old September 7th, 2015, 08:47 AM
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Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan View Post
Most roads around there are named in a pattern after all mughal and other rulers.. Tughlaq, Suri, etc
Sher Shah Suri actually built the road named after him.

But my question was it Britishers who named it or some one from Independent India.

The history we learnt during the Congress period said that All Muslim rulers were fine except Aurangzeb.

The TV version of Discovery of India penned by the original secular Nehru was also critical of Aurangzeb.

So, which Congressi named it, if it were not the british.

Even Marvi pai doesnt seem to like Aurangzeb.

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Rahulwhatever hates hindu extremism does not mean he hates hindu. it means he loves hindu as other loves.. see extremism in religion mixing with politics is dangeorous, islam is an example not only in midleast but in india too since aurangzeb time.. i know that i can not xplain you as much as i have to.. coz i am not good net bloggr on the contrary may be i am worst among echans
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  #45  
Old September 7th, 2015, 08:15 PM
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Talking Re: Online petition opposes renaming of Aurangzeb road

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Originally Posted by sgars View Post
In whatever Sikh History i read in Classes 5 and 6, Aurangzeb is the number 1 villain. And Pakistani historians love both Aurangzeb and Abdali in equal measure. So, try praising Aurangzeb before some fellow Sardarjis.

I do vaguely remember reading Benazir Bhutto also commenting adversely on Aurangzeb (after all, Zia used the same mechanism to execute her father). i will see if i can pull that up.

My question is, who was the guy who named it Aurangzeb Road in the first place.

If i had my way though, i would rename it to 'More acceptable muslim Ruler' like say, Razia Sultan and rename Krishna Menon Marg as Abdul Kalam Marg.
What made you think You will get an unbiased account of Aurangzeb in Sikh/Martha History ?

I did praised Aurangzeb in front of lot of Sardar's in my college days, No one argued much with me, First I thought It's my wits and charm, later I realized it had more to do with my strength

Now what I am saying is in general not just about you sgar. 'You' would mean a bunch of guys who are not getting my points.

Before you guys jump to conclusion that I am half/full/double Muslim, Neither of my parents are Muslim and I am from a Traditional landlord family in Rajasthan, though very educated (4 Generation back people in my family were getting scholarship for oxford). My family wouldn't object if tomorrow I say I am going to convert to another religion, Guess that's benefit of being from Traditional yet Highly educated family.

Now Aurangzeb was a human, just like Humans he made mistakes and he also did good. He's neither as bad a person as Hindu/Sikh Hardliners wants him to portray, neither as good as Muslim hardliners are trying to portray. He rules India longer than anyone else, He made India superpower on Economic and Military front, He didn't loot people/states of their money ( I wish I could say same for many of his adversaries )

Despite what jadunath sarkar said, His Biography of Aurangzeb is nothing but Bunch of lies, he was among pioneers of people who communalized history. Taking his accounts seriously, would be a dumb mistake. If you do that, Next level is Taking P. N. Oak seriously, Be advised by the time you would have no claim over sanity P.N. Oak was kind of guy that If Nasa said we found kind of something which looks like an old destroyed building on Pluto, he would jump saying that was our temple, destroyed by Muslim/Christians/Aliens
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