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  #16  
Old September 17th, 2015, 11:08 AM
ashdoc ashdoc is offline
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker View Post
How? Shivaji's reign was mostly limited to Maharashtra while Bajirao took it far beyond.
shivaji created the system that bajirao later used . shivaji created a kingdom out of nothing in the face of mighty sultans and mughal emperors , facing many difficulties in his task . the mughal empire was at its height during his reign and he had to face its full might . he himself toiled hard to create the military system to face it and his creation was nothing short of genius .

when bajirao came to power , the mughal empire was much weakened . the credit to the weakening of the mughals goes not to bajirao but to his predecessors like shivaji , shivaji's son sambhaji , shivaji's second son rajaram and later rajaram's wife tarabai---also to generals like santaji and dhanaji who fought for rajaram .

so bajirao had a relatively easy task ahead of him---attacking the moribund mughal empire . the army and military system for that purpose---he had already inherited it from his predecessors and he got it readymade and didn't have to create it . in the initial stages his succeeded brilliantly , and conquered gujarat , malwa , bundelkhand . also his other generals conquered vidharbha and gondwana ( chattisgarh ) during his reign . but you get the feeling while reading about his campaigns that his task was easier than that of shivaji's . he defeated his adversaries with a ease that was not possible for shivaji because during shivaji's reign the adversaries were at peak strength , while they were much declined at the time of bajirao . and he didnt innovate or create anything new . cant be called a genius .

in the final analysis , shivaji was irreplacable---if he was not born there would have been no maratha kingdom . but if bajirao had not been born , the maratha kingdom would have still expanded into north india though less spectacularly .
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  #17  
Old September 17th, 2015, 12:33 PM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by sgars View Post
A question on Chhatrasal. There is aroad named after him in Delhi plus remember an Amar Chitra Katha cmic on him. Who was he and what was his contribution.
chhatrasal was the rajput from bundelkhand , who revolted against aurangzeb in his younger days . he went to shivaji to get help but shivaji was in no position to help him as he could not afford to lead an expedition to north . but chhatrasal kept the flag of rebellion alive for decades in bundelkhand , giving no peace to the mughal forces .

he lived a long life and was alive to see the mughal empire weakened . but his revolt against the mughal empire was not successful as mughal general bangash trapped him . he sent a latter to bajirao asking for help , saying that his condition was same as the mythical elephant gajendra who was caught by a crocodile in the foot .

bajirao marched to bundelkhand in a lightening march and surprised and defeated bangash . the much relived chhatrasal then became ruler of bundelkhand . as inheritance he divided his kingdom into three parts---two parts he gave to his two sons and the third part he gave to bajirao accepting bajirao as his third son .

and he married his stunningly beautiful daughter mastani to bajirao . unfortunately she was born to his muslim wife who was a courtesan before she met chhatrasal . the mother had trained mastani in the arts of pleasing men by dancing in front of them , making them drink wine and alluring them by enticing movements . mastani was probably a 'sex kitten' and gave bajirao the pleasure in bed that his orthodox brahmin wife could not...

in the words of the great historian sir jadunath sarkar ' mastani had the morals of a viviandre '---which means she was a loose woman . she kept bajirao hooked by satisfying his lust . but she antagonized any sardar who came to visit him by talking rudely with the sardar and made bajirao further unpopular among his captains . her maids too were loose women who behaved rudely and in an uncouth manner to anybody who visited him and the whole atmosphere of mastani mahal was like a kotha. in that day and age when brahmins were forbidden to eat nonveg mastani made bajirao eat nonveg food and antagonized brahmins . not a great influence on him....
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Old September 18th, 2015, 09:38 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
shivaji created the system that bajirao later used . shivaji created a kingdom out of nothing in the face of mighty sultans and mughal emperors , facing many difficulties in his task . the mughal empire was at its height during his reign and he had to face its full might . he himself toiled hard to create the military system to face it and his creation was nothing short of genius .

when bajirao came to power , the mughal empire was much weakened . the credit to the weakening of the mughals goes not to bajirao but to his predecessors like shivaji , shivaji's son sambhaji , shivaji's second son rajaram and later rajaram's wife tarabai---also to generals like santaji and dhanaji who fought for rajaram .

so bajirao had a relatively easy task ahead of him---attacking the moribund mughal empire . the army and military system for that purpose---he had already inherited it from his predecessors and he got it readymade and didn't have to create it . in the initial stages his succeeded brilliantly , and conquered gujarat , malwa , bundelkhand . also his other generals conquered vidharbha and gondwana ( chattisgarh ) during his reign . but you get the feeling while reading about his campaigns that his task was easier than that of shivaji's . he defeated his adversaries with a ease that was not possible for shivaji because during shivaji's reign the adversaries were at peak strength , while they were much declined at the time of bajirao . and he didnt innovate or create anything new . cant be called a genius .

in the final analysis , shivaji was irreplacable---if he was not born there would have been no maratha kingdom . but if bajirao had not been born , the maratha kingdom would have still expanded into north india though less spectacularly .
Shivaji's created a kingdom out of nothing?? Was he not from some royal lineage himself? I read about Jijabai but don't remember reading anything else (I even played Shivaji in one of school annual gathering event & got huge applause )
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  #19  
Old September 18th, 2015, 10:45 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
shivaji created the system that bajirao later used . shivaji created a kingdom out of nothing in the face of mighty sultans and mughal emperors , facing many difficulties in his task . the mughal empire was at its height during his reign and he had to face its full might . he himself toiled hard to create the military system to face it and his creation was nothing short of genius .

when bajirao came to power , the mughal empire was much weakened . the credit to the weakening of the mughals goes not to bajirao but to his predecessors like shivaji , shivaji's son sambhaji , shivaji's second son rajaram and later rajaram's wife tarabai---also to generals like santaji and dhanaji who fought for rajaram .

so bajirao had a relatively easy task ahead of him---attacking the moribund mughal empire . the army and military system for that purpose---he had already inherited it from his predecessors and he got it readymade and didn't have to create it . in the initial stages his succeeded brilliantly , and conquered gujarat , malwa , bundelkhand . also his other generals conquered vidharbha and gondwana ( chattisgarh ) during his reign . but you get the feeling while reading about his campaigns that his task was easier than that of shivaji's . he defeated his adversaries with a ease that was not possible for shivaji because during shivaji's reign the adversaries were at peak strength , while they were much declined at the time of bajirao . and he didnt innovate or create anything new . cant be called a genius .

in the final analysis , shivaji was irreplacable---if he was not born there would have been no maratha kingdom . but if bajirao had not been born , the maratha kingdom would have still expanded into north india though less spectacularly .
Great reply... tried to rep but need to spread

Now that is how I like a post presented, simple words and great explanation. Not like some "broadcasts from the entire world" we see from some so called "full of it" new posters here
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  #20  
Old September 18th, 2015, 12:20 PM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker View Post
Shivaji's created a kingdom out of nothing?? Was he not from some royal lineage himself? I read about Jijabai but don't remember reading anything else (I even played Shivaji in one of school annual gathering event & got huge applause )


shivaji's first prominent ancestor is his great grandfather babaji bhosale who was nothing but patil of few villages near devgiri---the ancient yadava capital( yadavas were the ancient hindu rulers of maharashtra )....but this was the time of the muslim sultans of ahmednagar and the capital had now been renamed daulatabad .

babaji's son maloji made the bhosale family really prominent . he claimed to have had a divine vistation of goddess bhavani in his dreams who told him of a buried treasure . he immediately dug it up and became rich and prominent , and was able to marry his son shahaji to jijabai , who came from a family of higher status than himself .

higher or lower status---both jijabai's and maloji's family were second and third rate nobles toiling for the muslim sultans of maharashtra . their ancestors' greatest achievement had been to be in the part of the muslim army which had destroyed the hindu empire of vijaynagar---so these craven hindus worked daily to expand muslim power against that of their own people ( hindus ) and were grateful for the crumbs that the sultans threw at them .

the dug up treasure that maloji got---according to the great historian grant duff who wrote the first comprehensive history of the marathas in the 19th century ( which is still considered a classic ) , no goddess bhavani had appeared in maloji's dreams but the treasure was gotten as a result of highway robbery . but the sultan himself was a robber and he gladly raised maloji to the rank of a second rate noble from his earlier rank of third rate noble as he ( the sultan ) was probably bribed by part of the loot---and thus maloji's family became equal in status to jijabai's father who was second rate noble himself
note---first rate nobles could only be muslims , no hindu could dare dream of that position .

shahaji ( maloji's son ) was thus married to jijabai . but soon the sultanate of ahmadnagar was invaded by the joint forces of the mughals from the north and that of the bijapur sultanate from the south . shahaji then proved saviour of the kingdom by fighting brilliantly for the ahmednagar sultan for years . but ultimately the ahmadnagar sultanate came down . shahaji was offered to become a first rate noble of the bijapur sultan---a rarity for a hindu and a tribute to his bravery . he was given a jagir at pune . but he was considered to brave to be kept in maharashtra and was sent to a second jagir at bangalore in karnatak . there he married another woman and worked to attack the hindu kingdoms of tamil nadu---the nayaks of tanjore , madurai and tiruchirappali . this he was toiling for the traditional task of maratha nobles---extinguishing hindu kingdoms for his master the sultan !!

to control his jagir in pune he kept his first wife jijabai and a trusted brahmin called as dadaji kondev . the jagir was to be inherited by his son from jijabai---shivaji .

but jijabai was a woman of different calibre . her heart was rent by the injustice suffered by her hindu brethren at the hand of the cruel muslim rulers . she brought up her son shivaji on the tales of injustice that the hindus were suffering , and the remembrance of the past glory of the hindus---the greatness of ram , and the genius of krishna . the battle of kurukshetra in mahabharat and the march of ram on lanka !!

her son shivaji resolved to put an end to the suffering of the hindus , and create a hindu kingdom and restore the lost glory of the hindus . he collected a band of loyal friends and took a oath at the tender age of fifteen to free his country---at the shrine of lord raireshwar . to this end he began gathering around him a tribe called mavale who roamed practically naked in the forests of the sahyadri mountains . he ( a maratha by caste ) was able to win the undying loyalty of a wild tribe called mavales who were on the fringes of hinduism by his fiery speeches and his charm and his own personal courage . his ideas were not just brainwaves but brainstorms , and his ambition was nothing short of himalayan . out there in the wild tracts of maharashtra among wild people a storm was brewing---and the storm was strong enough to one day blow away much of the terrotiries held by muslim rulers in the subcontinent . shivaji had unsheathed his sword which was said to be given to him by goddess bhavani herself---and the rest as they say , is history....!!

but that does not change the fact that he was born to a lineage of third rate nobles who had converted themselves to second rate by the means of highway robbery , and were toilers for muslim sultans who used them as tools to destroy other hindu kingdoms.....
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Old September 18th, 2015, 03:58 PM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

Great thread and informative posts by Ashdoc
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  #22  
Old September 19th, 2015, 02:01 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

postscript

In 2012 the centuries old feud between the peshwa's family and mastani's descendants came to a happy end

but i was out of echarcha at that time , so could not post it

copy/paste---



Families that have been warring ever since Baji Rao Peshwa I married Muslim girl Mastani come together, make peace over kaju katlis and rasagullas.

In Pune When he knocked on the heavy wooden front door of the sprawling bungalow on Prabhat Road, Umar Ali Bahadur could barely contain his excitement. When the door was opened by the elegant septuagenarian Vinayak Vishwanath Peshwa, Bahadur felt an immediate connect. Before the door opened he tried to imagine how his host would look.

"The man before me looked just like Bade Abba - my father's elder brother," Bahadur beams. "He embraced me with affection and I could feel it was my blood," recalls Bahadur. All of 25, Bahadur has come to Pune in search of his roots and this meeting on Monday night was momentous. He was meeting family.

The 73-year-old Vinayak Vishwanath Peshwa, a practising Hindu Brahmin in Pune and Bahadur, a devout Muslim from Bhopal are both eighth generation descendants of Baji Rao Peshwa I, a noted general who served as the Prime Minister (or Peshwa) of the fourth Maratha emperor (Chhatrapati) Shahu, between 1720 and 1740 (when he died). The two trace their lineage to the two wives of Baji Rao: Kashibai and Mastani.

The two families have had little to do with each other over the past generations, as Baji Rao's Hindu family disapproved of his marriage to a Muslim woman. Legend has it that Baji Rao's mother Radhabai connived with his brother Chimanji Appa and tried to send her into exile.

Baji Rao's son Balaji too put Mastani under house arrest when he was away on a military campaign. Baji Rao lived with Mastani in his palace - Shaniwar Wada - for a while but later moved her out to a house he built in Kothrud. Earmarking this site, today, is a Mrutyunjay temple on one of the city's thoroughfare - Karve Road.

There are various versions both about Mastani's origin and death. The most accepted (now even by both sides of the family) is that she was the daughter of Maharaja Chattrasal of Bundelkhand and his Persian wife. She was offered in marriage to Baji Rao, along with a third of her father's kingdom (including Jhansi, Sagar and Kalpi) after the Peshwa saved her father from a Mughal invader - Mohammad Khan Bangash.

Similarly, while it’s known that Mastani died soon after Baji Rao's death, there are stories that she either committed suicide by consuming poison or jumping into his funeral pyre.

Cut to present day. History and generations have erased any bitterness that may remain between the two families. Bahadur is a sales officer at DSK Motors Ltd, at Hadapsar. His distant cousin Peshwa is a Remote Sensing Consultant to the Government of Maharashtra, Irrigation and Seismicity Projects. Bahadur had called Peshwa on Sunday to set up the meeting.

Peshwa did offer him dinner, but having already had his dinner on his way back from work, Bahadur preferred to concentrate on catching up on lost time. He called his elders back in his village - Pihor - 35 kms from Bhopal and got them talking to Peshwa. This was done over a box of kaju katli that Bahadur had brought with him and the rasagullas his host offered.

"It was a meeting that took place as Umar was keen to meet me. He and his family members are part of the Peshwa family," says Peshwa. He enthusiastically introduced his son to Bahadur. "We knew that Mastani family has been living in and around their ancestral home in Bundelkhand, but we had no communication." What changed this was a book on Mastani by Kusum Chopra. Bahadur met Chopra at the Peshwa family's Ganpati temple at Sarabaug. It was she who gave him Peshwa's contact.

"The Peshwa has promised me full support in restoration of Mastani shrine at Pabal. Besides he has pledged support to me in all my endeavours to preserve the shrine of Mastani and Peshwas, which are in dilapidated conditions," Bahadur adds. "I want that the interactions of our family must increase further and our age old ties to strengthen every day. The marriage of Bajirao with Mastani itself the set the trend of liberalism in India and we are proud to cherish the legacy each day," he adds.

Peshwa has now invited Bahadur to attend Baji Rao's birthday celebrations at Sarasbaug next Sunday. "We have invited him for our family meeting in the temple as Umar is our family member," he said.

Bahadur, who calls himself a Konkanastha Brahmin Muslim, is all ready for the big day.

http://oldphotosbombay.blogspot.in/2...shwas-and.html
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Old September 19th, 2015, 09:20 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

Nice educative post doctor
I had read about the 'reunion' news when it made news.
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Old November 18th, 2015, 10:14 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

An interesting name for a porn movie (or a sex tape)
"Baburao Mastani"
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Old November 18th, 2015, 10:26 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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An interesting name for a porn movie (or a sex tape)
"Baburao Mastani"
I thought that was what the movie was about. Wasn't it
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Old November 18th, 2015, 11:29 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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I thought that was what the movie was about. Wasn't it
It still is to be made. if this is what this movie is going about, it will be first 'such movie' to put me to sleep.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 02:12 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

maharashtrian brahmins from pune are outraged over song in which the peshwa's legal wife is shown dancing like an item number girl along with the mistress---mastani

http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/w...l-2511398.html
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Old November 19th, 2015, 07:18 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
maharashtrian brahmins from pune are outraged over song in which the peshwa's legal wife is shown dancing like an item number girl along with the mistress---mastani

http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/w...l-2511398.html
He seems to have lifted it from his own Devdas. I just saw that drivel for a few minutes. The saving grace of that was Madhuri Dixit, particularly one dance sequence choreographed by Birju Maharaj.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 11:46 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
maharashtrian brahmins from pune are outraged over song in which the peshwa's legal wife is shown dancing like an item number girl along with the mistress---mastani

http://www.firstpost.com/bollywood/w...l-2511398.html
Puneri people are famous for being in a constant state of outrage Thats what my non-Puneri Mahrashtrian Brahmin friends tell me.
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Old November 20th, 2015, 10:22 AM
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Re: Bajirao mastani---Sanjay Leela bhansali's ambitious venture

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Puneri people are famous for being in a constant state of outrage Thats what my non-Puneri Mahrashtrian Brahmin friends tell me.
bajirao's descendant mohini karkarey hits out at bhansali in open letter---

http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainmen...ansali-2146623
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