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  #1  
Old December 15th, 2000, 11:46 AM
proudhindustani proudhindustani is offline
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It’s my view that most of the people who visit this site would be software professional and working in US (or some other countries, thanks to god, we people do have more options now). I would like to share your views regarding following problem Indian software professional face while working in US.

I recently came across a new and surprising problem during my last bench period, while interviewing if the person whose taking the interview is a Indian, selection chance are very less, while discussing the same with few friends I came across following fact :

- They react funny, asking question, which is not related to job description.
- Their first concern is always be to show “How much they know”, rather to know how much candidates know.
- Instead of having a high level of interview (I think everybody in US at least having minimum 2 yrs of experience), they used to take interview for college fresh outs like asking syntax and all funny things.
- In some case, it’s due to North/South/East/west theory. Is it true?????
- Some case, the Interviewer think, this guy know more then me, its not good for me if he'll be in my team.
- As we all know, Indian will always prepare well before interview, even though after few hours rolling and grilling and indeed performing well, Interviewer wont give him chance saying "I am looking something else....." or some other excuses.
- Surprisingly people express happiness when they know that interviewer is not a "Desi"

I found some of my friends experience is far difference, they found Indians are more helpful, please share yours experience and thoughts on this.
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Old December 15th, 2000, 12:46 PM
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Talking Excellent topic and observations

My inference on this matter has been logically resolved as follows:

1(a). If the Indian Interviewer is acting like a jerk and does not select you, that is because he ran away from India in the first place to escape the Indians. He just does not like Indians.

He is suffering from an inferiority complex. His mind is always having the question:
"Agaar meri polll pakdi gaieee to kya hoga?"

translated, it means: What if the other indians who get close to me find out the real truth about me? Obviuously, he has something to hide from his indian past.

1(b).
If the Indian interviewer acts like a jerk, it is because he thinks that since he could come to the USA or Europe, that he is the Greatest Indian till date. He suffers from Superiority Complex.


2. If the Indian interviewer does not act like a jerk, that is because he had no intention of running away from his country and countrymen but Fate and wealth brought him here.
So he will conduct interviews per your experience level and play fair.


Simple Answers to difficult Questions

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Old December 15th, 2000, 01:07 PM
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Indian Interviewers

While I largly accept your opinions I wish to add that the Indian guys not just here but even in India are Jerks.I remember the time when I was scouting for a job in software
I scanned the whole of Mumbai city..I even went to small companys where there were only 4 or 5 employees..even here
the interviewers used to ask me such complicated questions
for hours together and at the end of it used to offer me a salary of Rs 2000 or in some cases even lesser.But this was
if they were kind enough I have also come across cases where
I was rebuffed by the interviewer where he said that I was not even fit to be a software engineer!.If that was the case could I be here in the US?!!!

Indians(certainly not all)are sometimes saddists!.Thats all I can say.My current boss is an American and her qualities are exemplary.I for one have not faced any racism which some of the Indians advertise so much in the USA.
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Old December 15th, 2000, 01:08 PM
proudhindustani proudhindustani is offline
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Talking dont u think they should atleat give a chance

My mean of chance here is atleast let him/her give a chance to perform well and decide, rather then before interview they decide (sometime by name) that this guy rejected.
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Old December 15th, 2000, 02:22 PM
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Wink Proud Hindustani

you surely can be credited for starting an interesting topic, but your views on the topic seem to be hazy or vague or may be you are not able to gather your views properly before posting them. I would advise you to do so.
this is a sincere advise and please don't consider me a jerk.

Thanks
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Old December 15th, 2000, 02:28 PM
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Talking This happened in reality

I was fine tuning the Database and I got some parameters set wrong and t he system would not come up. So I called up the Hotline for help and guess what?

there was an Indian on the other end at the help desk. Iwas very happy but my happiness was short lived. When I tell him what happened, He retorts at me "Who told you to change the settings".

Well I am supposed to change the settings to improve performance not to stare at the settings. He is there to help me out not to Gaand Marvafie.

That was a real jerk. Above that, even he did not have a solution to my problem. Finally, an eurpoean expert helped me out.
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Old December 15th, 2000, 03:00 PM
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not really about Indian

I've had both kinds of experiences

i have had this experience and many times felt so funny and pitied the indian interviewers.

this Indian guy from Brience comes to campus and asks me some vague Java interfaces. who the **** cares what the interface does?? if i need it i'll go the the sun website or a book...

i wished USG had posted this a few days earlier to that so i could have "prepared" for the interview. http://www.gandmasti.com/forum/showt...threadid=22207

But at the same time, talking with an Indian in the Bell-core research group over the phone, more of an informal chat.. and got an offer!
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Old December 15th, 2000, 03:14 PM
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Cool Okay let me tell you my side...

I have been in the microprocessor and software field for about 8 years now. I have 5 years of working experience in India and 3 years in the USA.

I work for a good American consulting company, in their Bay Area branch which outsoruces professionals to big clients like IBM, CISCO, Motorola, Nokia, Qualcomm, Sun, Javasoft, Rational, NEC, Philips and many others. We even have smaller companies and startups as our clients.

Our BayArea branch is run by Indians and there are lots of Indian employees. I also work at a big client's site on web related projects. My company regularly asks me to conduct interviews of candidates in India looking to come here and also of candidates in USA looking for a change in their job. I get many of of both.

Based on my past 2 years of interviewing candidates I have found distinct trends in candidates. If you will allow me, I would like to shar them with you.

My interview style is never that of a professor interviewing a student in a Viva-Voce exam where you have to know all the formulae and equations.

I make the candidate feel very comfortable by chatting on general topics and then tell him/her that imagine you are representing my company at a client's site. You are facing the Business Manager or a Senior Technical Manager there. You are being told a business process or technical problem that the company is facing and are being asked to provide a solution. You have to present your solution and make a pitch as to why your solution is better than any other solution from a technical stand point.

I have found that almost all candidates like this approach. It allows me to have role playing, where I can be the client asking all kinds of questions and letting the candiate suggest me solutions. I never go for petty syntax unless I feel that the candiate is quite fresh in experience and coding.

I usually ask a generic business problem like giving multi-level user access to a web enabled application.

Based on this I have found 5 types of candidates
1) those who really know their stuff,
2) those who know a little less but are quite adept at thinking in the right direction and providing a solution, 3) those who dont know anything and have fake resumes and 4) those who only know the tehcnology or sepcific sections of that technology (like just Java RMI) which they have used in their last project and have not taken pains to learn anything new related to their field.
5) Candidates who are good technically but dont have the right attitude

Of these five types, candidates of type 1 are very easy to detect and I hire them right away. They ask you all the right questions and have a clear solution to the problem. SOmetimes more than one with argumenst to point out the pros and cons of each approach.

I am optimistic but careful with candidates of type 2.
I try to carefully listen how they apply their logic to the whole problem. Then I help them on the way so as to prod them on in the right direction. Many candiates are very proactive and they immediately display their eagerness to learn new things and are eager about new challenges. They ask me a lot of questions. They ask for more details. This hows that they know theri stuff. All that it will take is to train them a little and they will hit the road running.
I hire these but after careful listening to them and their committment to learning!

Candidates of type 3 are so easy to detect.
I usally finish my interviews within 5 minutes and they never get hired by us. Such candidates write things like ASP or JSP in their resumes and will not know what methods or objects JDBC or ADO provide for data access. Easily detectable by looking at their resumes... and confirmed when they are unable to answer basic questions like what is a browser session or how cookies work. Yes, it sounds unbelievable but I ahve come across such types a lot.

Candiates of type 4 are really pitiful.
They only stick to their guns like I did this in my last project. I used this application server and we did this and we did that. Okay, if you ask them what about say Java and Servlets. They will answer but we used only JSP and HTML and not Servlets. I ask them that did they try to atleast browse though the Servlet documentation and they again start thei rant about what was used in the last project. I hate it when you just talk about your past glory. Your past achievments are important but please dont start every senetnce with" In my last project I did this in this way... " Puhleeeezzzeeeeeeee spare me the boring details over and over again.

I honestly find such folks technically challenged. These people can only be mediocre and can work best under constant supervision and spoon feeding. I never hire such candidates.

Candiates of type 5 are a real insult to anybody. These will know the stuff and think they are the boss! They forget one simple trait required in everyday life and even in business - courtesy and politeness. The way they present themselves and the way they ask questions, it feels that they are doing me a favor. I never hire such candidates because being a team player is very essential in big teams. Having a different opinion does not mean you rub everyone the wrong way. Also, they relly know that I am talking to them on technical issues yet they will constantly ask for HR related details. Despite politely telling them to consult our HR dept. for such matters these people are more interested in what benefits the company offers and all that. well, our HR people send a complete information package and we have everything on our website. Then these candidates always give conflict and disagreement of ideas as the reason for quitting their last job. I try to stay away from such people. After all just being a good programmer is not enough for success of a project but the right attitude is. Such candidates are rejected by me

I have found some of these traits not only in Indians but also in others.

Now imagine if some of the types mentioned above dont get selected by me, they surely must be getting hired someplace else. Now if such people are one day in a position to interview you then you will realise it yourself what type of technical person he/she is.

All the best with your job interviews.
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Old December 16th, 2000, 02:16 AM
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Arrow both side of coins

-There are both case, in some case indian use to help but in most cases, the experience you had is true about these people.

-Confidence of those people matter a lot, they themself are not confident. if person is confident about his ability, he do not mind any one comming in his team, but if he have doubt about himself then their is problem. Grouping does exist in team and sometime they decide that if they want to take this person or not even before interview begine.

-I have seen one important thing that most of tamil people do not help north indian at all(at least 90% case is true) they have real attitude problem but they will balme you as due to majority(not anymore) in most places. Reason behind this is most of them brought here by some of third class consultancy with fake degree and/or by training them least in technology, since they had english, they think they are inteligent thats why they are here more in number from north indian people. Most of such firm have charge handsome money from them to do h1, some of them have openly admit this and I know.

-I think this is how attitude is working in Industry here, but for sure if guy is confident in his ability he will not behave like you mentioned, if you are competent he will help you to get in. Thats all my exp in this animal farm, for which some of people on echarch have expressed, how inteligetn they are to make this software carrier in US
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Old December 16th, 2000, 02:47 AM
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big theory...

I disagree with you echarcha on candidate Type1 and Type5. How you can decide if a person having sound technology and really intelligent makes you reject them.

All in all how one can decide once attitude during interview firmly that person is not having right attitude and if say you have selected then how you can be sure that person does have right attitude unless he actually start with projects.

Your theory seems quite big, in my view you just tone down and stop looking only brightest, give some chance to people unless you are not interviewing for a VLSI/Microprocessor designer or critical system programmer... the type2 person can also work well and their should not be any Type5. For doing JSP or something like that one does not need to be sound in technology after all

Type1 : Sound in attitude and Technology
Type2 : Sound in Technology and doubt in attitude
Type3 : Having fake resume for the technology they have submitted their resume, hence their skills does not match, dont call them zero in technology unless they did not reach here by those third class consulting by paying money. Surely people coming from reservation is always much better than these people as they have taken the benefit to just get admission in Eng. college, but these people are getting reservation(money) to make it in software industry
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Old December 16th, 2000, 05:33 AM
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Hmmm... interesting discussion.

I have been in the US a fairly long time >7 years, and the points you guys bring out are valid based on which side you are looking from.

There is one characteristic among Desis in the US that I have noticed a lot .. a superiority complex.. How many times have you heard or yourself said .."Kahan kahan se aa jaate hain yeh log?" .. or .. "Yahan to kisike ko bhi visa mil jaata ha". I have heard this many many times, and I admit, have said the same in my early years here. When you see a desan wearing petticoat and blouse (no saree) and plastic chappals while walking in the park, it does trigger that kind of reaction.

A lot of desis think that the are in the US because of their hard work and intelligence, but the next guy is here because of a fake resume. An old joke is ..

What is the first thing a desi says when he gets off the boat??

He turns around and shouts .. "Go back home you bloody foreigners"


So a lot of the attitudes that are listed in this thread stem from that superiority complex. The interviewer thinks that he is superior to the candidate, and judges and categorizes him based on that (a la echarcha). The interviewee thinks that he is superior to the interviewer, so if he gets rejected, he thinks that the interviewer is a dick (a la proudhindustani).

Bottom line, we are all professionals. If you get rejected, maybe it was your fault after all. Proudhindustani, if you were so good, why were you on the bench at all ?? Surely there is a great demand for people with exceptional skills.

I do agree with echarcha though. In a lot of the interviews I have done, I look for attitude first, then skills (whether I am interviewing a desi / chinese / gora whatever). Skills can be picked up. Attitude stays with you your whole life. Proudhindustani, when you say you were asked questions not related to job description, that is probably why.

A couple of years back I got to interview my own boss-to-be
That was a trip
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Old December 16th, 2000, 09:49 AM
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Okay let me clarify

People, I may be less experienced in USA as I have been here for 3 years only. Before that I worked 5 years in India. Yes, I did get to work on some US based projects while in India.

I am pretty sure that I never sound nor intend to be superior to the candidate... Smeelyfinger you read it wrong. I meant that I dont behave like a professor at your viva-voce (oral) exams...

If you are talking of interviewing for the sake of a job, then offcourse technical skills are the first thing I will look for as an employer. Maybe the wide spread pratice in the indutry is to get people here with lower or sub standard skill sets and then expect them to learn on the job at the client's expense. Well, my company is not like that, otherwise its so easy to jump jobs in the valley.

As to what Real Deal is saying... you may have been interviewing others for longer than me maybe or maybe not at all. But I know for sure that I have never had any complains about people I have hired for my company. Somehow my instincts plus way of interviewing has always struck gold and we have never had any mediocre or not so good candidates.

I stand firm by what I have said. Maybe I should have said that Type 1 candidate is one hwo knows his/her stuff really well and is also a swell person.

Have you ever spoken to someone who starts talking in such a tone that you start feeling who needs the job here? You or me?? Its not to say that the candidates have to come crawling on their hands and knees and beg for a job! Basically even if you are real good at your stuff, dont let that make your ego bloat or make your head lighter. Always try to be courteous whether you like the job offer or not.

And what do you mean by saying a JSP programmer does not really require skills but a VLSI designer does? Agreed that JSp or ASP or PERL are easy to learn and quickly get a job based on them. But mind you, if you are not good at all the aspetc that go ionto Web development you never really get those 3 figure hourly rates or that great salary plus stock option deal. Even if you know VLSI, does not mean you know it all. I have worked with firmware development for microprocessors which is equally tough and non-glamorous unlike some real cool Web stuff. But buddy, a good programmer can always do a good job - whether in VSLI or JSP.. And again, this is USA, where you can demand the best and get paid the best. Why should my company get mediocre people on board and get less than what they should. After all all of us have vested interests in making oru company run better and be surrounded with bright people... stock options

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Old December 16th, 2000, 11:56 AM
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Smile Echarcha.. one question

I work in a software field that does not require me to do JAVA / HTML / C, C++ , Assembly coding, ASP, VB nor OracleD2K. I also do not know either of them in detail.

Rest assured that I am a class1 engineer and have been working on computers since 1992.

Suppose if I applied to your company, what would be your reaction?
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Old December 16th, 2000, 03:19 PM
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Lightbulb S complex...

Quote:
echarcha :
Agreed that JSp or ASP or PERL are easy to learn and quickly get a job based on them. But mind you, if you are not good at all the aspetc that go ionto Web development you never really get those 3 figure hourly rates or that great salary plus stock option deal
-Is getting stock option and three figure hourly rate is an standard and measure for good technology. Sun does not provide stocks to its employee

-Well! a sales man also get stock option in company, not a technical guy. Infosys peon and driver in India have stock option too.

-Sir meaning of stock options was never for good technology, its an overall company performance and ofcourse a critical and important programmer make it more than other but that does not mean other don't have stock options.

-I admit your view smellyfinger, and lets see that if Indian can improve with this S complex dilemma

[Edited by The Real Deal on 12-16-2000 at 11:49 PM]
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Old December 16th, 2000, 06:05 PM
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Red face Okay Real Deal

Okay Real Deal let me further spell it out

See my company has clients who have a specific need - enterprise level software development and since the last few years e-commerce. So we do not design VLSI chips nor do we design GIS systems. We do whatever is necessary to let a company build a enterprise level applications using tools like SAP, PeopleSoft, Oracle apps, Java, EJB, Java RMI, IPlanet Server, Lotus Domino, WebSpehere, Micrsoft DNA, etc. etc.

Our focus is on these areas. For other needs like VLSi design our clients must be going to other consulting companies if they need it.

So when we go in and charge the cleints by the hour, we are delivering the best possible service and expertise and quality - otherwise we wont be in business!

About stock options - right now the stock market is all downwards, so stock options may not sound meaningful.

I dont know what other companies as you mention do about stock options, but we (my company and I) are here to do business and make money! We are not ashamed to make money!! We (my company) are all in it here (maybe not you) for the money!! And to make that kind of money and be in the market requires that we provide the best possibel service.
And yes, our clients are not fools who will accept substandard work, so we take care to give the best people


Stock options were and in many palces still are the instruments to attract and retain the talented people in a company.

Okay we do not design VLSI chips and program PLD's or design netwroking gear! But mind you, the very companies that make VLSI chips or Server Hardware or other high-tech stuff also require business tools which run on the software paltforms I mentioned above.

I really do not understand your argument -
We (my company) want the best possible people with us so that our clients can get the best services from us and we can get the best possible rates for our services. We give stock options because we wish to retain our best talent and make more money for all of us!!

And mind you the best skilled candidates are also not here with us for charity! They are in it for the money too. So we all have a common goal - get paid the best possible which we deserve for our good talents and skills.

(Again - we means our company )

I cannot be more simple that this: We love making money, however shallow it may sound to you or some folks out there,
and if it requires recruiting the best - then so be it!


Cheers and chill out a while dude!!
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