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  #16  
Old July 30th, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
we are tying ourselves into knots are we? what would one call it? paradox? contradiction?

so we are weak, as a nation, we cannot apprehend, try and punish someone who has broken the laws of our country. you wish that we were powerful enough not to be played with like this - however, you do support whole-heartedly someone, who pisses all over our justice system, over us as a nation and shows us his skinny white azz with his govt refusing to extradite him? (incidentally, Danish govt refusing to extradite this man has nothing to do with his beliefs or why he did whatever he did! if it was about that then atleast we would have an argument!)
The justice system is broken too. There is no justice within the Indian justice system worth noting. My admiration was the spirit of his actions, not the act itself. I believe this act happened with the active consent of RAW. All of this extradition drama is just a natak for the general public.

You got to realize that Indian justice has no meaning for the common man. You will get justice here only if you are rich, powerful or well connected. Otherwise good luck for your next twenty years in court.
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  #17  
Old July 30th, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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honestly! do you guys think this is about religion! someone has come from outside, broken my country's laws! I want him cowering before judges like every other criminal, thats it....
There a million criminals within our our system who break the law everyday and are scot free plus get garlanded by their supporters. At least this guy did it for reasons beyond mere money and corruption which dominates our national soul here.

Keeping dreaming about that justice.
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  #18  
Old July 30th, 2012, 12:00 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

No nation can afford to lose its capacity for violence. A part of this capacity is having citizens well trained in the use of weapons and combat skills. All of us sleep soundly only because other men are ready to commit violence on our behalf (actually the Indian government and the elite's behalf, but somehow that benefit surprisingly trickles down to us in crumbs and bits.) My admiration was in this spirit, that some people in India possess skills in terms of using advanced weapons such as those armsdropped in this case.
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  #19  
Old July 30th, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

If the courts in India had been effective as those in the west. India would be a great place. We have good laws, but terrible implementation and even worse judgement.

Much of India's problems is because of lack of justice, not excess of violence.

A man can be violent and just. A man can be non violent and yet utterly immoral. All our politicians are just of the latter mould.
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  #20  
Old July 30th, 2012, 12:16 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

Either this happened with RAW's consent or some other conspiracy. I'm not sure myself. But Kim Davy is a courageous man no doubt. Lets applaud the spirit of actions no matter if he is our enemy or friend or neither. He believed in something, whether Ananda Marg motivations, anti communism, Hinduism, anti India whatever, whatever it was, he risked his life and limb to try accomplish it. Men of his deeds and convictions made this world today, good or bad. Most of us are not 1% of this.
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  #21  
Old July 30th, 2012, 01:16 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

so, we should be strong - from inside and for the outside as well.. agreed 100%

for me that means getting people who have wronged us to stand trial by our rules.

if we dont manage this and such incidents (can one forget bhopal? we actually helped the responsible/Accountable escape!) in our favour how will we be the strong nation that you want us to be?

yeah Kim is courageous, so is Kasab by that yardstick...
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  #22  
Old July 30th, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
so, we should be strong - from inside and for the outside as well.. agreed 100%

for me that means getting people who have wronged us to stand trial by our rules.

if we dont manage this and such incidents (can one forget bhopal? we actually helped the responsible/Accountable escape!) in our favour how will we be the strong nation that you want us to be?

yeah Kim is courageous, so is Kasab by that yardstick...
The first step to becoming strong is to respect strength, both physical and mental.

The next step to this process is to respect our enemy and his strengths. This is the part where we admire and respect the spirit of our enemy. Respecting the spirit of our enemy is not automatic respect for his actions. We can keep both separate. Both of these statements are true.

Kasab is man who risked his life for the cause he believed in (radical islam)

Kasab is a terrorist who murdered innocent people.

So here one statement is not in contradiction with another. If we overlook statement 2, we miss the evil of actions. If we overlook statement A, we miss the basis for his motivations. If we pick and choose between the two statements, we are always in danger of missing key vital information which lets us identify the enemy. Many people have murdered many people, but unless we identify what caused them to behave that way, we will go down the wrong path and lose the way. To know and defeat our enemy, we must respect him and his capabilities. Unless we realize this, we can never break our enemy.

It is the prime reason why Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. Both the Americans and Soviets went into the war not respecting the Afghan fighter. They just saw him as an ignorant hick with guns who can be killed anytime with bullets, airstrikes and drones. Both failed to realize his true strength i.e. an ideology which has stood the test of time and innumberable conflict over a thousand years. By respecting Kasab, we do not give legitimacy or honor to his evil deeds, we rather just acknowledge the fact that he is motivated by an ideology that will make him sacrifice himself by taking us all with him, the spirit of the Jihad. If we consider and lump Kasab as just an ordinary psychotic criminal, we have neither diagnosed the problem nor devised a solution to neutralize the likes of him. Again respect your enemy otherwise it is doom for all us. You must recognize the spirit behind his act and learn to fight it rather than Kasab the person.

Believe me, I share your hope and ideals for our justice system. Nothing would be sweeter than seeing the enemies of our nation stand in the dock, humiliated, sentenced and sent to the execution chamber. But believe me, it is not going to happen. Until then justice is only that which we can claim for ourselves by own efforts, violent or non violent.

We let people like Kasab kill us, we let people like Anderson poison us and escape and we allow all of this to be done to us because we are fundamentally weak. We have neither capacity to give justice to ourselves nor take it because the stomach for violence has been robbed out of our very will. Remember the law only exists when there is a implicit threat of violence following its violation. If there is no such threat, no one will respect or obey it. This has what has exactly happened in India, Indian justice is a toothless tiger.
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  #23  
Old July 30th, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
Kasab is man who risked his life for the cause he believed in (radical islam)

Kasab is a terrorist who murdered innocent people.
here's the thing. Both the statements can never be true from the view point of one person. Someone who believes in first statement will not call whta he did "murder". Anyone who calls what he did as "murder" will rubbish the cause. One person will never deem a terrorist as a martyr and one person will never deem a martyr a terrorist.

you cannot want a nation to be strong but at the same time hope a criminal of the nation to go free.
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  #24  
Old July 30th, 2012, 02:13 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
Remember the law only exists when there is a implicit threat of violence following its violation. If there is no such threat, no one will respect or obey it. This has what has exactly happened in India, Indian justice is a toothless tiger.
is it an irony then, that Kim is not being extradited because of voilent record of Indian system - police, justice and prison.
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  #25  
Old July 30th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
Nothing would be sweeter than seeing the enemies of our nation stand in the dock, humiliated, sentenced and sent to the execution chamber. But believe me, it is not going to happen. Until then justice is only that which we can claim for ourselves by own efforts, violent or non violent.

how will it happen as long as we have doubters amongst ourselves? what is pressurising our system to push for and achieve the extradition?
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  #26  
Old July 30th, 2012, 09:11 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
how will it happen as long as we have doubters amongst ourselves? what is pressurising our system to push for and achieve the extradition?
Reality is not about latent intentions, convictions or lamentations. Reality is all about those who acted on these feelings. They made the world. Not we who sit in this forum and just debate.
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  #27  
Old July 30th, 2012, 09:12 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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is it an irony then, that Kim is not being extradited because of voilent record of Indian system - police, justice and prison.
All of these are just excuses. There is more to this we are not able to see.
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  #28  
Old July 30th, 2012, 09:14 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
here's the thing. Both the statements can never be true from the view point of one person. Someone who believes in first statement will not call whta he did "murder". Anyone who calls what he did as "murder" will rubbish the cause. One person will never deem a terrorist as a martyr and one person will never deem a martyr a terrorist.

you cannot want a nation to be strong but at the same time hope a criminal of the nation to go free.
No, both the statements above are objective. What you and I believe is subjective observation based on our biases. Do not confuse emotional feelings with objectiveness, the truth stands distinct from it. This emotional impulse characteristics has been the curse of Indians all along. Do not fall prey to this trap.
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  #29  
Old July 31st, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
All of these are just excuses. There is more to this we are not able to see.
perhaps... but then I refer to your earlier post -

Reality is not about latent intentions, convictions or lamentations. Reality is all about those who acted on these feelings. They made the world. Not we who sit in this forum and just debate.
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  #30  
Old July 31st, 2012, 12:20 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
No, both the statements above are objective. What you and I believe is subjective observation based on our biases. Do not confuse emotional feelings with objectiveness, the truth stands distinct from it. This emotional impulse characteristics has been the curse of Indians all along. Do not fall prey to this trap.
yes both statements are objective, but a person who regards both statements as his views at a give point of time needs to undergo treatment for bipolar disorder or multiple personality disorder.
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