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  #46  
Old August 3rd, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
Here is a vivid mental imagery.

Once I accompanied my mother to Siddhivinayak Temple in Mumbai. In the middle of the temple, there was an electronic signboard proclaiming that the Bhagwan of Hindus is the same as the Allah of Muslims and God of Christians.

A noble sentiment of course. But it has no place in a temple and if it did, then it has to hang inside every mosque, dargah and Church inside India.

Would the Christians and Muslims allow such a thing? Why should Hindus be subject to this inside their very own place of worship?
OK. I looked up in google for a few facts about the Siddhi Vinayaka temple. Apparently, Siddhi Vinayaka Temple in Mumbai is the second richest in Maharashtra after Shirdi.

If you have a problem with some sign in the Siddhi Vinayaka temple, you should complain to the temple trustees.

Let's see now.

Siddhi Vinayaka temple has been controlled by the Maharashtra govt since 1981 (presumably by appointing members of the temple trust/management).

Now you want to prevent the govt from prying its nose into temple affairs, right? Fair enough. No issues with that. Govt does not control managements of churches, mosques, or gurudwaras. This is in keeping with the spirit of separating religious affairs from governmental affairs.

The Shiv Sena-BJP combine was in power in Maharashtra. They could have passed a law removing govt control over the Siddhi Vinayaka temple. They passed no such law.

So would you call the BJP or the Shiv Sena pseudo-secular too? After all, they didn't change the law when they could have.

No point blaming the Congress alone for this law that allows state govts to control temple managements. Other political parties are not really interested in changing the situation either.
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  #47  
Old August 4th, 2012, 09:06 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
we are not talking about India... we are talking about how denmark has shown double standards. the title is White Man's justice.
India will be continued to be treated like shit everywhere until she learns to bite.

Power respects only power, this is an immortal truth.
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  #48  
Old August 4th, 2012, 09:07 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
OK. I looked up in google for a few facts about the Siddhi Vinayaka temple. Apparently, Siddhi Vinayaka Temple in Mumbai is the second richest in Maharashtra after Shirdi.

If you have a problem with some sign in the Siddhi Vinayaka temple, you should complain to the temple trustees.

Let's see now.

Siddhi Vinayaka temple has been controlled by the Maharashtra govt since 1981 (presumably by appointing members of the temple trust/management).

Now you want to prevent the govt from prying its nose into temple affairs, right? Fair enough. No issues with that. Govt does not control managements of churches, mosques, or gurudwaras. This is in keeping with the spirit of separating religious affairs from governmental affairs.

The Shiv Sena-BJP combine was in power in Maharashtra. They could have passed a law removing govt control over the Siddhi Vinayaka temple. They passed no such law.

So would you call the BJP or the Shiv Sena pseudo-secular too? After all, they didn't change the law when they could have.

No point blaming the Congress alone for this law that allows state govts to control temple managements. Other political parties are not really interested in changing the situation either.
Congress is not to blame, the blame rests entirely on Hindus.
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  #49  
Old August 4th, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
There are plenty of other such examples including government control over temples while minority institutions have no such control, the opposition to Uniform Civil Code which will give rights to everyone irrespective of religion instead of Hindu law, Muslim personal law etc.
Why worry so much about the Uniform Civil Code when the criminal justice system is totally broken?

You have a police force that routinely uses torture instead of interrogations and investigations. You have investigators who are incapable of sound investigations. The criminal justice system here is not capable of gathering evidence and putting a good argument before a judge. When the criminal justice system is so utterly broken and that is the case in every state, why worry so much about a Uniform Civil Code? It's far more important to fix the criminal justice system first. Meantime, if Hindus, Muslims and Christians are regulated differently in matters of marriage and inheritance, it's not such a big deal.

The RSS talks about the Uniform Civil Code. It's fine to have a Uniform Civil Code. But it's much better to have a working criminal justice system. A lot of the BJP leaders come out of the RSS, but they do nothing to fix the criminal justice system in their own states (in this respect, they are similar to the Congress-wallahs). Law and order is a state subject.

Also, AFAIK, there is the intention to modernize the Civil Code. Some of the statutes date back to pre-independence. One example is that daughters are routinely disinherited. But if you want to change inheritance laws, there will be an uproar from Hindus as well. Because traditionally, it's been seen as okay to disinherit daughters. Muslims will also resist a Uniform Civil Code as of now. Other groups resist too. Everyone seems to want their own inheritance and marriage and divorce and alimony laws.

AFAIK. Don't know much about this Uniform Civil Code business.
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  #50  
Old August 4th, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
Why worry so much about the Uniform Civil Code when the criminal justice system is totally broken?

You have a police force that routinely uses torture instead of interrogations and investigations. You have investigators who are incapable of sound investigations. The criminal justice system here is not capable of gathering evidence and putting a good argument before a judge. When the criminal justice system is so utterly broken and that is the case in every state, why worry so much about a Uniform Civil Code? It's far more important to fix the criminal justice system first. Meantime, if Hindus, Muslims and Christians are regulated differently in matters of marriage and inheritance, it's not such a big deal.

The RSS talks about the Uniform Civil Code. It's fine to have a Uniform Civil Code. But it's much better to have a working criminal justice system. A lot of the BJP leaders come out of the RSS, but they do nothing to fix the criminal justice system in their own states (in this respect, they are similar to the Congress-wallahs). Law and order is a state subject.

Also, AFAIK, there is the intention to modernize the Civil Code. Some of the statutes date back to pre-independence. One example is that daughters are routinely disinherited. But if you want to change inheritance laws, there will be an uproar from Hindus as well. Because traditionally, it's been seen as okay to disinherit daughters. Muslims will also resist a Uniform Civil Code as of now. Other groups resist too. Everyone seems to want their own inheritance and marriage and divorce and alimony laws.

AFAIK. Don't know much about this Uniform Civil Code business.
I have said it before. The spirit of the act matters as much the act itself. Even If the uniform civil code is implemented, it will not be of much use to Indians. But trying to do itself will make India is a bit of a better place and that means a lot here.
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  #51  
Old August 5th, 2012, 04:37 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
Well, you have to understand the depth of the political nexus in the justice system. The white-men know that Kim will not be treated the same as Kasab... why because there is no white-man vote-pocket in the country
Davy, if at all brought to be tried in court in India, will be treated okay. He's a citizen of Denmark, after all, and will have consular access to Danish officials.

What is worrisome is the brutal way Indian citizens are treated by the Indian state if you are unlucky enough to get caught.

Here is a vivid example. Have you followed the Aarushi Talwar murder case? She was a teenager murdered in a Delhi suburb in 2008 and the case grabbed national attention here. Aarushi's parents were both dentists. Right after the murder was reported to the police, the UP police (this was Noida) allowed the crime scene to be contaminated by allowing dozens of people into the house where the murder took place. See what great investigators we got? Now these stupid cops, who are so incompetent that they contaminate the crime scene, accuse the Talwars of murdering their daughter. There's no physical evidence linking the parents to the murder, but the cops persist in slandering the parents. The cops' theory is that the girl was murdered because she got intimate with someone, or some other similar crap theory. Haryanvi Jats might possibly have a penchant for honour killings; why would two Delhi dentists do that? I absolutely refuse to believe that the parents would murder their only child, a girl they doted on.

OK. Now coming to the point I wanted to make. They had sent the father, Rajesh Talwar, to jail. When he went to shit in the lavatory, he apparently found the bathroom slippery because ... the entire floor was covered with shit. This is the kind of lavatories they provide in this jail, apparently. But if Rajesh Talwar were a netaji ó does not matter if he is affiliated with the Congress-wallahs or the BJP-wallahs or any of the other shitty political parties we got here ó you can bet your last dollar that they would not have dared to treat him this way; they would have given him decent treatment, may be even 5-star treatment. If you are just a normal person, they screw your ass. Kafka couldn't have conjured this hell. This is how the Indian state operates.

Here's the link where I got the bathroom info from:

Worse than a Daughterís Death, BY Patrick French, 5 February 2011
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  #52  
Old August 5th, 2012, 09:07 AM
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Origmos Origmos is offline
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
Davy, if at all brought to be tried in court in India, will be treated okay. He's a citizen of Denmark, after all, and will have consular access to Danish officials.

What is worrisome is the brutal way Indian citizens are treated by the Indian state if you are unlucky enough to get caught.

Here is a vivid example. Have you followed the Aarushi Talwar murder case? She was a teenager murdered in a Delhi suburb in 2008 and the case grabbed national attention here. Aarushi's parents were both dentists. Right after the murder was reported to the police, the UP police (this was Noida) allowed the crime scene to be contaminated by allowing dozens of people into the house where the murder took place. See what great investigators we got? Now these stupid cops, who are so incompetent that they contaminate the crime scene, accuse the Talwars of murdering their daughter. There's no physical evidence linking the parents to the murder, but the cops persist in slandering the parents. The cops' theory is that the girl was murdered because she got intimate with someone, or some other similar crap theory. Haryanvi Jats might possibly have a penchant for honour killings; why would two Delhi dentists do that? I absolutely refuse to believe that the parents would murder their only child, a girl they doted on.

OK. Now coming to the point I wanted to make. They had sent the father, Rajesh Talwar, to jail. When he went to shit in the lavatory, he apparently found the bathroom slippery because ... the entire floor was covered with shit. This is the kind of lavatories they provide in this jail, apparently. But if Rajesh Talwar were a netaji ó does not matter if he is affiliated with the Congress-wallahs or the BJP-wallahs or any of the other shitty political parties we got here ó you can bet your last dollar that they would not have dared to treat him this way; they would have given him decent treatment, may be even 5-star treatment. If you are just a normal person, they screw your ass. Kafka couldn't have conjured this hell. This is how the Indian state operates.

Here's the link where I got the bathroom info from:

Worse than a Daughterís Death, BY Patrick French, 5 February 2011
Do not get surprised by any perversion in our justice system, Sanjayji. This is India where the common man is shit, not just the bathroom floor. These is absolutely no justice in India. As I said before, the problem with India is not excess violence, violence is all over the world including the great USA. The problem in India is absolute lack of justice, especially the common man.
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  #53  
Old August 6th, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
Do not get surprised by any perversion in our justice system, Sanjayji. This is India where the common man is shit, not just the bathroom floor. These is absolutely no justice in India. As I said before, the problem with India is not excess violence, violence is all over the world including the great USA. The problem in India is absolute lack of justice, especially the common man.
This is a pointer to how broken the criminal justice system in this country is. It's not as if this kind of thing is an exception to the rule.

Police in this country do not have the ability to do proper forensic investigations or do interrogations. Bad training and bad policing culture. They do not mind using beatings and torture though.

No wonder the terrorism investigations are shoddy too. If you do good criminal investigations, you are likely to do good terrorism investigations too. And the inverse is true as well.

These are well-known problems. Nothing new here. Most of these issues have to be addressed by state govts because law and order is a state subject. But no one is much interested in fixing these things ó not the Congress-wallahs, not the BJP-wallahs, not anybody else. They must be busy with other important things.
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  #54  
Old August 6th, 2012, 04:09 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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But no one is much interested in fixing these things ó not the Congress-wallahs, not the BJP-wallahs, not anybody else. They must be busy with other important things.
They do not want the justice system to succeed. If it does, then justice will be dispensed faster and that's bad news for them. Why ever get convicted under an efficient court of law when they can ensure all cases gets dragged on nearly forever?

This is deliberate sabotage. This was their plan all along.
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  #55  
Old August 9th, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
They do not want the justice system to succeed. If it does, then justice will be dispensed faster and that's bad news for them. Why ever get convicted under an efficient court of law when they can ensure all cases gets dragged on nearly forever?

This is deliberate sabotage. This was their plan all along.
Right ... the way I see it ... using Jayalalitha as an example.

Say Jayalalitha, CM of TN, decides to really put some effort into modernizing the police force with better training and minimizing political interference in investigations.

If there are vigorous investigations, her own colleagues will get caught and jailed. These are men on whom she depends to get votes and win elections.

So she risks her own political career by modernizing the police force.

The line between politician and criminal has become blurry ... both the Congress and BJP have real criminals as Lok Sabha MPs. Other parties like SP, BSP, RJD, etc. have even worse standards.
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  #56  
Old August 11th, 2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: A lesson on the white manís justice

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
Right ... the way I see it ... using Jayalalitha as an example.

Say Jayalalitha, CM of TN, decides to really put some effort into modernizing the police force with better training and minimizing political interference in investigations.

If there are vigorous investigations, her own colleagues will get caught and jailed. These are men on whom she depends to get votes and win elections.

So she risks her own political career by modernizing the police force.

The line between politician and criminal has become blurry ... both the Congress and BJP have real criminals as Lok Sabha MPs. Other parties like SP, BSP, RJD, etc. have even worse standards.
There are many other ways of doing this too. Not reforming the judiciary for instance. Our judges adopt the tradition of old British colonists than as servants of the people. Also the government deliberately floods the system with spurious cases. Half the cases clogging the justice machinery in India are something filed by the government in one form or another. Has any one of these cases benefited the people of India?
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