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  #31  
Old January 14th, 2019, 02:09 AM
Shringarey Shringarey is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

My take is that reservations should be given to people who were historically oppressed - provided the oppression is SEVERE!

Who are these people?

Historically, those who were oppressed by caste system converted to Islam, Christianity or Buddhism (Ambedkar's conversion is case in point). Those who remained Hindus, might have suffered oppression, but it was not SEVERE, as they saw no need to convert.

IMHO, only Muslims, Christians and Buddhists should be given reservation - no one else. I know that this sounds a bit crazy. People might argue that it will make more people move to other religions. So have a cut off date, say 2000 or any other. Any conversions after that will not get reservations.

That seems to be the only fair way out of this.

My 2-cents
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  #32  
Old January 14th, 2019, 02:46 AM
kkkk kkkk is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

does that mean that the obcs and NTs and SCs and STs and all flavours of Marathas (proposed) and Muslims who already get reservation under some other categories will also get reservation under this category if they have prove their income or real estate ownership? hmmm....
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  #33  
Old January 14th, 2019, 10:18 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
My take is that reservations should be given to people who were historically oppressed - provided the oppression is SEVERE!

Who are these people?

Historically, those who were oppressed by caste system converted to Islam, Christianity or Buddhism (Ambedkar's conversion is case in point). Those who remained Hindus, might have suffered oppression, but it was not SEVERE, as they saw no need to convert.

IMHO, only Muslims, Christians and Buddhists should be given reservation - no one else. I know that this sounds a bit crazy. People might argue that it will make more people move to other religions. So have a cut off date, say 2000 or any other. Any conversions after that will not get reservations.

That seems to be the only fair way out of this.

My 2-cents
That is like jumping into the fire to escape the frying oil
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  #34  
Old January 14th, 2019, 07:54 PM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
does that mean that the obcs and NTs and SCs and STs and all flavours of Marathas (proposed) and Muslims who already get reservation under some other categories will also get reservation under this category if they have prove their income or real estate ownership? hmmm....
Jisko pehle se kisi category me reservation hai.. usko yeh waala nahi milenga.. You can't frikkin double the discount coupons.
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  #35  
Old January 15th, 2019, 04:10 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan View Post
Jisko pehle se kisi category me reservation hai.. usko yeh waala nahi milenga.. You can't frikkin double the discount coupons.
how does the exclusion get implemented though? If there is overtly lot of competition from an area in OBC for example, what is to stop a poor OBC from claiming EBC reservation?
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  #36  
Old January 15th, 2019, 05:00 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
My take is that reservations should be given to people who were historically oppressed - provided the oppression is SEVERE!

Who are these people?

Historically, those who were oppressed by caste system converted to Islam, Christianity or Buddhism (Ambedkar's conversion is case in point). Those who remained Hindus, might have suffered oppression, but it was not SEVERE, as they saw no need to convert.

IMHO, only Muslims, Christians and Buddhists should be given reservation - no one else. I know that this sounds a bit crazy. People might argue that it will make more people move to other religions. So have a cut off date, say 2000 or any other. Any conversions after that will not get reservations.

That seems to be the only fair way out of this.

My 2-cents

I would say the opposite Shring - purely based on your argument. (keep aside the argument for a few minutes about some people's pride in their religion)

Those who were historically oppressed enough, according to your logic, changed their religion to Christianity, Islam and Buddhism and in doing so alleviated their status in the society and were oppressed no more... so these are the people that should be excluded from reservations. The historically oppressed who stayed back in whatever their original religion/caste was, have not managed to alleviate themselves out of the situation and therefore need the benefit of reservation more - these should be the only people who are given reservation? What say?
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  #37  
Old January 15th, 2019, 08:03 AM
Shringarey Shringarey is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

kkkk,

That is the argument given by BJP to exclude Muslims/Christians from reservation. But the argument is simple - ONLY those who suffered a lot changed religions, others did not. The VERY FACT that they did not change their religion shows that they were not subject to EXTREME deprivation. They may have faced some deprivation, but not EXTREME. That is why they did not shift their religion.

Simble!!!
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  #38  
Old January 15th, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
kkkk,

That is the argument given by BJP to exclude Muslims/Christians from reservation. But the argument is simple - ONLY those who suffered a lot changed religions, others did not. The VERY FACT that they did not change their religion shows that they were not subject to EXTREME deprivation. They may have faced some deprivation, but not EXTREME. That is why they did not shift their religion.

Simble!!!
So, you think conversion to another religion happens or happened only because of oppression? Iím flabbergasted.

So many Sikhs and Hindus overnight became Muslims in Pakistan during partition so as to grab deserted properties and uplift status.

Do you think all Christians in India coverted from Hinduism because of oppression?

Many more examples I can cite.
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  #39  
Old January 15th, 2019, 01:46 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by BABU_HYDERABADI View Post
My thinking is that the reservation should be at max 25%. This should include all SC/ST/OBC/EB-UC.
I think there should be 0% reservation. It should be merit based. Each school should be free to choose how they want to allocate their seats. However, there need to be laws against discrimination.

It should be a level-playing field for everyone.
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  #40  
Old January 16th, 2019, 03:38 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
kkkk,

That is the argument given by BJP to exclude Muslims/Christians from reservation. But the argument is simple - ONLY those who suffered a lot changed religions, others did not. The VERY FACT that they did not change their religion shows that they were not subject to EXTREME deprivation. They may have faced some deprivation, but not EXTREME. That is why they did not shift their religion.

Simble!!!
bhau, move ahead a couple of steps from what you are saying, dont get stuck....

what I am arguing is one step further to what you are saying on the basis of assumption that what you are saying is true.... the whole point is Reservation is to uplift the downtrodden - based on your logic, those who changed their religion are uplifted and not downtrodden anymore, so they don't need reservations!

Reservations are not supposed to be for those who suffered extreme deprivation in the past but are comfortable today, no? Hence the Creamy layer concept.
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  #41  
Old January 16th, 2019, 06:30 AM
Shringarey Shringarey is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

kkkk,

By your OWN logic, there is no need for reservations. Let people who are oppressed just change their religion. Simble.

Your own logic is for conversion of people.!!!!
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  #42  
Old January 16th, 2019, 08:52 AM
kkkk kkkk is offline
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
kkkk,

By your OWN logic, there is no need for reservations. Let people who are oppressed just change their religion. Simble.

Your own logic is for conversion of people.!!!!
except there are people (you probably don't understand this?) who don't want to change their religion, whatever the cost.

so, conversion of people to get out of oppression is your logic. my logic (based on yours) is give reservations to people who are still oppressed, as you say, but have not converted.

Good try in interpreting a different conclusion from my post btw - abject failure though. There is too much difference between what you are saying my conclusion is and my real conclusion.
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Last edited by kkkk; January 16th, 2019 at 08:58 AM.
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  #43  
Old January 16th, 2019, 09:00 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
except there are people (you probably don't understand this?) who don't want to change their religion, whatever the cost.

so, conversion of people to get out of oppression is your logic. my logic (based on yours) is give reservations to people who are still oppressed, as you say, but have not converted.
Agree, but with certain caveats.

First, if head of household has received reservation benefit, then offspring can't claim it. I don't know how this can be enforced without using comprehensive data analytics.

Second, in some manner, the economic status has to be a factor in any reservation system, may be a formula or a points system of sorts. Example from my engineering days, many of those reaping benefits of reservation were hardly under privileged other than belonging to the supposedly backward sections of society.
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  #44  
Old January 16th, 2019, 09:16 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

This video is quite symbolic of the discussion at hand.. look at the desperation with which the bahujan samaj wants a piece of the cake.

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  #45  
Old January 16th, 2019, 10:24 AM
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Re: what do u guys think about the 10% Economically backward among Upper Castes

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Originally Posted by Shringarey View Post
kkkk,

By your OWN logic, there is no need for reservations. Let people who are oppressed just change their religion. Simble.

Your own logic is for conversion of people.!!!!

But bhaya... people do not change even for humanity's sake. Even when science says there are no gods, people still want to continue on in their merry religious ways. You think they will change religions because of a little oppression
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