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  #46  
Old January 10th, 2013, 03:03 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Ugh! The point I was trying to make was the the argument is not antiquated and is very much relevant....probably more so than during the British times.

If you want to remain thick headed, then so be it.
abe chu** my response was about your post about gandhi being pro-guns and what that quote referred to.

perhaps the argument about allowing free access to guns is not antiquated, however saying that allowing free access to guns will reduce crime and murder rate is naivete at the best - same logic as making it rain will reduce murders. to think that corruption, police apathy, casteism and social issues will get eliminated just by allowing free access to guns borders on stupidity.
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  #47  
Old January 10th, 2013, 07:11 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
abe chu** my response was about your post about gandhi being pro-guns and what that quote referred to.

perhaps the argument about allowing free access to guns is not antiquated, however saying that allowing free access to guns will reduce crime and murder rate is naivete at the best - same logic as making it rain will reduce murders. to think that corruption, police apathy, casteism and social issues will get eliminated just by allowing free access to guns borders on stupidity.
It may not reduce crime rate, but at least it will level the playing field no? Why should only the bad guys have guns?

The law of unintended consequences though means that this will lead to more family murders using guns - but I think we have gotten pretty creative in India in that respect. Hanging, burning alive, drowning, stabbing ..

There will never be a consensus to this debate - just opinions that cannot be reconciled.
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  #48  
Old January 10th, 2013, 03:12 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by smellyfinger View Post
It may not reduce crime rate, but at least it will level the playing field no? Why should only the bad guys have guns?

The law of unintended consequences though means that this will lead to more family murders using guns - but I think we have gotten pretty creative in India in that respect. Hanging, burning alive, drowning, stabbing ..

There will never be a consensus to this debate - just opinions that cannot be reconciled.
Will it level the playing field? I don't think so. The badness or goodness is in the mind. Good guys will probably not use guns even if you give them freely, bad guys will use them even if you restrict/prevent access.
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  #49  
Old January 10th, 2013, 07:52 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
Will it level the playing field? I don't think so. The badness or goodness is in the mind. Good guys will probably not use guns even if you give them freely, bad guys will use them even if you restrict/prevent access.
I think you are very much mistaken here. Good guys will use guns if they are cornered and feel it is the only way out... heck, they may not even need to be cornered... just the thought that a bad guy will get his/her due will be reason enough for the good guy to use the gun
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  #50  
Old January 11th, 2013, 04:22 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
I think you are very much mistaken here. Good guys will use guns if they are cornered and feel it is the only way out... heck, they may not even need to be cornered... just the thought that a bad guy will get his/her due will be reason enough for the good guy to use the gun
is that what you see happening where gun access is not controlled? do you own a gun? are you prepared to use it even if you 'felt' cornered?


after the school massacre (btw there have been atleast TWO other reports of people just shooting other people since that incident that I know of. one from yesterday where someone shot some students with a shotgun) there was a news item where a student brought a knife/gun to the school being paranoid - he had to face disciplinary action.... I dont have links to hand but if you guys have not heard about this I can search for the news and post here.
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  #51  
Old January 11th, 2013, 09:30 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
is that what you see happening where gun access is not controlled? do you own a gun? are you prepared to use it even if you 'felt' cornered?


after the school massacre (btw there have been atleast TWO other reports of people just shooting other people since that incident that I know of. one from yesterday where someone shot some students with a shotgun) there was a news item where a student brought a knife/gun to the school being paranoid - he had to face disciplinary action.... I dont have links to hand but if you guys have not heard about this I can search for the news and post here.
Whether the good guys choose to use a gun or not is irrelevant. Let each person make that choice for himself/herself. The problem is that right now people don't have a choice.

Please don't compare crime in the US with India. I'll rip that argument apart six ways from Sunday. Let's just talk about India.
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  #52  
Old January 11th, 2013, 09:47 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Whether the good guys choose to use a gun or not is irrelevant. Let each person make that choice for himself/herself. The problem is that right now people don't have a choice.

Please don't compare crime in the US with India. I'll rip that argument apart six ways from Sunday. Let's just talk about India.
how is the use of gun irrelevant? It is more relevant than your debate about gandhi's opinion about guns.

obviously to effectively consider relaxing gun control you have to look at what happens in places where gun control us relaxed.

choice to hai abhi bhi. whether legal or illegal scores of people have guns despite such a lot of control in India on arms - from desi kattas to AK47s. if people want to use arms, they can and will simply even use kitchen knives. that doesnt rid you of crime - whether in India or US.

sidha bol de na, kuchh bacha nahi hai debate ke liye.
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  #53  
Old January 11th, 2013, 10:04 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
how is the use of gun irrelevant? It is more relevant than your debate about gandhi's opinion about guns.

obviously to effectively consider relaxing gun control you have to look at what happens in places where gun control us relaxed.

choice to hai abhi bhi. whether legal or illegal scores of people have guns despite such a lot of control in India on arms - from desi kattas to AK47s. if people want to use arms, they can and will simply even use kitchen knives. that doesnt rid you of crime - whether in India or US.

sidha bol de na, kuchh bacha nahi hai debate ke liye.
Okay...let me explain in more simple terms. Legalize guns. If the good people want to use it, they will use it. If you don't want to use it, they won't. At least they will have a choice. Right now, even if they want to use it, they cannot, since guns are illegal.

You say that people who want arms can always find a way of getting it. By saying that, you are advocating breaking the law, since the law is against gun ownership. If you are telling me that the law is just naam ka, then why bother having such a law?

I have tried to say this earlier, which you probably haven't understood so far is that gun ownership goes beyond just an individual acquiring a gun. It allows companies to manufacture and sell guns legally. Gun ownership give access to the arms industry, which is a huge industry.

If you still don't get it, then forget it. I can't continue this argument, because you seem to be stuck on one point that if guns are available then everybody is going to shoot each other and crime will go up. I will just live with the fact that you are incapable of seeing the big picture.
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  #54  
Old January 11th, 2013, 10:28 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

3 posts from Mr Kalidas, the first and the last few...

first post - allow legal access to guns, they prevent crime, US example for controlled crime, afghanistan example of uncontrolled crime.

second post (in the list below) - allowing legal access to guns is about choice, dont compare US example about relating guns and crime

last post - gun control relaxation is more than about crime, it is about getting access to arms industry which is huge industry.

Finally after having run out of arguments, some more personal slur....


hmmmmm India spent 2.7% of her GDP on arms industry in 2012 thats 46.8 billion dollars! we already have enough access to arms industry and have many more issues to tackle which should be prioritsed over the issue of gun control.

thank you for stopping the argument.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
It is just frustrating to hear about all the rapes, terrorist activities, hooliganism, extortion cases, etc etc in India. There is anarchy in India...the citizens are too dumb to realize it.

India has to allow law-abiding, responsible citizens access to guns. Contrary to popular perceptions, Guns are a very effective deterrent to crime.

The US is a good example. US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world. In fact, US-based NRA is probably the second best equipped and trained organization in the world; the US Army being the first. I cannot fathom a situation where a terrorist sprays bullets randomly in a tourist site and then survives for 3 days (like the Mumbai attack). Most likely, somebody carrying a gun (legally with a conceal and carry weapon license) would get him much before law enforcement officials.

In the US, it is easy to get trained in the use of weapons. You have plenty of places for target shooting, duck hunting, deer hunting, skeet, etc. It takes time and practice to use a weapon effectively. You can't just hand somebody and gun and assume they are prepared.

Take the example of Afghanistan. The country has been invaded by so many powerful armies, but nobody was able to sustain themselves...that is because the Afghanis are equipped and trained in the use of weapons at a very young age.

Please don't bring us scattered cases like the random school shootings in the US as an example of the issues with gun ownership. India has a structural problem, while US has social problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Whether the good guys choose to use a gun or not is irrelevant. Let each person make that choice for himself/herself. The problem is that right now people don't have a choice.

Please don't compare crime in the US with India. I'll rip that argument apart six ways from Sunday. Let's just talk about India.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Okay...let me explain in more simple terms. Legalize guns. If the good people want to use it, they will use it. If you don't want to use it, they won't. At least they will have a choice. Right now, even if they want to use it, they cannot, since guns are illegal.

You say that people who want arms can always find a way of getting it. By saying that, you are advocating breaking the law, since the law is against gun ownership. If you are telling me that the law is just naam ka, then why bother having such a law?

I have tried to say this earlier, which you probably haven't understood so far is that gun ownership goes beyond just an individual acquiring a gun. It allows companies to manufacture and sell guns legally. Gun ownership give access to the arms industry, which is a huge industry.

If you still don't get it, then forget it. I can't continue this argument, because you seem to be stuck on one point that if guns are available then everybody is going to shoot each other and crime will go up. I will just live with the fact that you are incapable of seeing the big picture.

Last edited by kkkk; January 11th, 2013 at 10:30 AM.
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  #55  
Old January 11th, 2013, 11:27 AM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Okay...let me explain in more simple terms. Legalize guns. If the good people want to use it, they will use it. If you don't want to use it, they won't. At least they will have a choice. Right now, even if they want to use it, they cannot, since guns are illegal.

You say that people who want arms can always find a way of getting it. By saying that, you are advocating breaking the law, since the law is against gun ownership. If you are telling me that the law is just naam ka, then why bother having such a law?

I have tried to say this earlier, which you probably haven't understood so far is that gun ownership goes beyond just an individual acquiring a gun. It allows companies to manufacture and sell guns legally. Gun ownership give access to the arms industry, which is a huge industry.

If you still don't get it, then forget it. I can't continue this argument, because you seem to be stuck on one point that if guns are available then everybody is going to shoot each other and crime will go up. I will just live with the fact that you are incapable of seeing the big picture.
Although its not as simple as that. From a cost standpoint guns are going to be out of reach for most of the people in India. So you get back to rich or well off people only having access to guns. A decent (safe) handgun costs anywhere from 50K upwards. How many people can afford this? And unfortunately, the ones that could use the protection of the guns the most are the ones who wont be able to afford them. Kinda gets you back to square one.
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  #56  
Old January 11th, 2013, 01:50 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
3 posts from Mr Kalidas, the first and the last few...

first post - allow legal access to guns, they prevent crime, US example for controlled crime, afghanistan example of uncontrolled crime.

second post (in the list below) - allowing legal access to guns is about choice, dont compare US example about relating guns and crime

last post - gun control relaxation is more than about crime, it is about getting access to arms industry which is huge industry.

Finally after having run out of arguments, some more personal slur....


hmmmmm India spent 2.7% of her GDP on arms industry in 2012 thats 46.8 billion dollars! we already have enough access to arms industry and have many more issues to tackle which should be prioritsed over the issue of gun control.

thank you for stopping the argument.
What the fuck are u reading?

Yes, guns help prevent crime since they are a very effective deterrent. Yes, guns ownership goes beyond just crime prevention. It helps with protection of property rights and keeping governments in check. Yes, arms industry is very good for the economy. The bloody 2.7% GDP number u have quoted is mostly imports. India does not have a thriving arms industry. How many more arguments do you need in favor of gun ownership?

Last edited by kalidas; January 11th, 2013 at 01:55 PM.
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  #57  
Old January 11th, 2013, 01:53 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by smellyfinger View Post
Although its not as simple as that. From a cost standpoint guns are going to be out of reach for most of the people in India. So you get back to rich or well off people only having access to guns. A decent (safe) handgun costs anywhere from 50K upwards. How many people can afford this? And unfortunately, the ones that could use the protection of the guns the most are the ones who wont be able to afford them. Kinda gets you back to square one.
That is no justification to implement gun control. Would you rather have rich, responsible people with guns or goons?

Just because the poor cannot afford guns, does that mean rich,law-abiding people should.be deprived of their right to defend themselves.
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  #58  
Old January 11th, 2013, 03:46 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
That is no justification to implement gun control. Would you rather have rich, responsible people with guns or goons?

Just because the poor cannot afford guns, does that mean rich,law-abiding people should.be deprived of their right to defend themselves.
What the fuck are you high on? Why dont you just stop the argument as you said you will?
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  #59  
Old January 11th, 2013, 11:54 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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What the fuck are you high on? Why dont you just stop the argument as you said you will?
I'm glad you are convinced India should allow gun ownership.
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  #60  
Old January 12th, 2013, 05:12 PM
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Re: Allow gun ownership in India

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Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
I'm glad you are convinced India should allow gun ownership.
Abe tune bola tha argument nahi karega.... you still on and on? Your word has no value?

I will take advice from smelly's signature now.
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