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  #16  
Old August 17th, 2011, 05:11 AM
GameOn GameOn is offline
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

the middle class(supporters of tingu dada i.e. anna) are in the middle for a reason...and now I am going to get lynched but anyway here goes...

they are middle because they think they are to smart to lead a carefree life like those that work 14 hours a day, then drink/smoke/intoxicate themselves for 2 hours and sleep for the remaining 8 hours...i.e. ''dark and dirty poor'' class...

and too innocent and morally pure to lead a dream life like the gulfstream class...

so they end up in the middle and make a tasty sandwich filling for everyone from the NRI who lands the boombastic middle class chick to the tingu dada and yoga yogi types who milk them of their ''hard earned'' rupaiyas and productive time...or both...

the self named middle class needs to grow out of its strange sense of values and smell and drink the coffee(and have the donuts) in order to be healthy and practical...

the lokpal is just another layer of bureaucracy...allowing tingu dada corporation a backdoor entry into the corridor of power...
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  #17  
Old August 17th, 2011, 06:46 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
JaiSpeaks bhau, please, have you read what I posted. Please read that. Lets leave Congress and BJP out of it for the moment and lets just look at what the Lokpal bill as demanded by Hazare would mean. Please can I beg your attention span for going through the articles I posted. Please.
Just read the first article . Author says what Anna is doing is blackmail .
But Congress is listening . Looking at the reputation of Congress , this fast-unto-death is what is making Congress get on the edge . And maybe that is what the idea was to get Congress riled up . Bring them to the table for negotiations.

There was a protest not to long back on reservations. What happened ? Congress so easily handled them .
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  #18  
Old August 17th, 2011, 07:33 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by swami View Post
The long term effect of this bill is that congressis would have to leave their corrupt habit.
I have read both the bills and find Anna's bill superior and for the nation.
Imagine you boycotting the police to bring laws to check you randomly,If you are clean you should not object to be checked.Same way if congress is clean they should not object to having a lokpal.
Lokpal is another RTI Act which the congress is dreading.
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Originally Posted by BKN View Post
yea kal Anna(kisan) Hazare Bolega.....PM step down as I want it else I will do ANSHAN ...then.....and who will be Lokpal..some corrupt Indians ..same story exploitation of the Power and law in hand...

No better than a BMC Chaprasi who ask 500Rs to give the file to his boss in Building department...and The Boss happily gives 500Rs to same Chaprasi to get him the file....check out if not believe
swami ji, that is what a police state is where the police have powers to 'check you randomly' and according to you, if you are clean why fear? Yes, now who challenges the police if they go corrupt on you and demand money else they throw you in jail for being 'un clean'? Do you run to Lokpal?

Right now such extreme cases seem reasonable but when they do get enacted, then see what happens. You think having Lokpal will make the police clean and corruption free? Oh how naive you are.

It will be like those Pakistani rangers, who are the judge and jury and shoot people instantly. Only because one of their shooting was captured on film, did we learn of their unjust ways.

Yes, you can all have your police state under the aegis of Anna Hazare. Also remember that according to Anna a 'clean and corruption free' environment is where there is no alcohol and other forms of entertainment. Now in his own village of Ralegaon Siddhi, he does not allow liquor bars. Why? Who the fuck is he to dictate how people should live? He does not allow any 'tamasha party' in his village which is the rural form of entertainment. In cities you have multiplexes. Why? Why should people not go to a tamasha for entertainment?

Okay all your Congress haters might give up liquor. Good for you. But as Anna's vision of a Gandhian state are enforced by Lokpal bill, do count the number of freedoms that will be curbed.

Anyway, since Indians want this law, so be it. We NRIs are fortunate to escape this 'police state' and 'Anna dictated Gandhian way of life'.
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  #19  
Old August 17th, 2011, 07:48 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

Lokpal or not, arresting Anna has sent a VERY wrong message to the people which is that you are not allowed to voice your opinion in a non-violent way in the largest democracy of the world

If Anna would have done this when elections were round the corner, either the govt would have dealt with it completely differently OR faced severe repercussions from voters.

Anna has turned out to be much stronger than what an average Indian thought him to be.

I salute him for whatever he is doing.

In this country, it is not easy to speak openly without being appropriately 'connected'.
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  #20  
Old August 17th, 2011, 08:20 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

I don't think Anna is anti-progress. Also, he is responsible for banning not only alcohol, but all forms of tobacco in his village. And there is no super-police, nor will be.

If the opponents of the Jan Lokpal are so sure of this bill being bad, why not let it happen and then watch it fail ?? Then you can all say "I told you so"

Also, there is an argument that let the government's Lokpal Bill become a law first, then you can make amendments in it to make it stronger. But amendments can work two ways, right ? You can make the Jan Lokpal Bill a law, then use amendments to dilute it


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  #21  
Old August 17th, 2011, 05:39 PM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

Aim high...and at least the govt will bargain down to something more reasonable.
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  #22  
Old August 18th, 2011, 01:43 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

Cha Pai,

The order of links may be wrong. And the order is important because many a times first impression is last impression. The second one is most crisp and clear. Then comes the third.
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  #23  
Old August 18th, 2011, 02:43 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
Anyway, since Indians want this law, so be it. We NRIs are fortunate to escape this 'police state' and 'Anna dictated Gandhian way of life'.
Yes sir. We all sacrifice a bit for our limited circles of freedom. Here we don't have any security officers probing our insides and if it were ever to happen, we would feel violated. Elsewhere in the world the citizens gladly submit to it and feel more secure..
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  #24  
Old August 18th, 2011, 08:01 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by shruthi_ks View Post
Cha Pai,

The order of links may be wrong. And the order is important because many a times first impression is last impression. The second one is most crisp and clear. Then comes the third.
After a long time, I agree with you on something. Thanks for reminding. I should have posted the FAQ first.
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  #25  
Old August 18th, 2011, 08:32 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
Anyway, since Indians want this law, so be it. We NRIs are fortunate to escape this 'police state' and 'Anna dictated Gandhian way of life'.
this is purely my personal opinion: its time for you to return to des. or some day in future u will wake up in bed wondering 'is this me?'

on a side note, 'lokpal will not clear corruption completely' is admitted time and again by Anna. and lokpal is not the only thing he is protesting for. its for overall deep rooted corruption everywhere. the issue has taken a different shape now - a non-violent gandhian is not being allowed to protest
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  #26  
Old August 18th, 2011, 10:08 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

That's right Peaceseekerbhai. Getting the politicians and officers in the Lokpal's reach is only the first step. Then Anna has to go after the larger catch - the public. The whole nation's mentality needs cleansing. Maybe Anna's next target should be 100% voter turnout.
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  #27  
Old August 18th, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by raniraja View Post
That's right Peaceseekerbhai. Getting the politicians and officers in the Lokpal's reach is only the first step. Then Anna has to go after the larger catch - the public. The whole nation's mentality needs cleansing. Maybe Anna's next target should be 100% voter turnout.
One quick way of doing that is by having a 'No Vote' option and then fining everyone who stands for elections if they do not get a minimum number of votes. And this is very simple to implement and can easily cleanup our political parties.
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  #28  
Old August 18th, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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One quick way of doing that is by having a 'No Vote' option and then fining everyone who stands for elections if they do not get a minimum number of votes. And this is very simple to implement and can easily cleanup our political parties.
Exactly. It looks simple. But even that would need some kind of laws to be passed, get EC's approval and what not.. and you know the inertia of our politicians, specially about anything regarding elections. It took them damned near 20 years to implement the EVM..

Even if we put a "No vote / None of the above" option, will that really attract the voter to the polling booth ? A few, maybe, but most of them will still want their paid holiday or whatever.

You don't hear Congress canvassing about "you must go and vote, for whoever, but vote you must". This must be a part of their strategy, with low voter turnout built in their equations. Congress is election savvy (as Cha has repeatedly pointed out in his ruminations about Congress .... couldn't resist it).


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  #29  
Old August 18th, 2011, 10:35 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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One quick way of doing that is by having a 'No Vote' option and then fining everyone who stands for elections if they do not get a minimum number of votes. And this is very simple to implement and can easily cleanup our political parties.
What purpose will a no vote option serve ?

Suppose the total vote in a constituency is 50000 votes with 7 candidates contesting the election and the leading 2 get 10000 and 10000 votes and the balance is no-vote what should be the result ? You would say re-election and in how many constituencies do we go for re-election and how many times ?

Why cant the people who want the no vote option either contest the election or support a candidate of their choice instead of wasting time and money of the common man ?
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  #30  
Old August 18th, 2011, 10:40 AM
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Re: Why the Lokpal bill as demanded by Anna Hazare would be the wrong thing to demand.

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
One quick way of doing that is by having a 'No Vote' option and then fining everyone who stands for elections if they do not get a minimum number of votes. And this is very simple to implement and can easily cleanup our political parties.
'minimum percent of votes' condition is already there. the candidates lose their deposits if they do not score the minimum.

in indian democracy, the winner is the one who gets max votes. which in most cases is not majority [i.e. >50%]. 'no vote' option wont be effective without change in this methodology.

even though the 'candidate with max votes is winner' appears flawed on the surface, it actually a reflection of extreme democracy wherein any number of candidates can stand-up for elections. so for every pro there is a con and vice versa
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