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  #211  
Old March 19th, 2018, 10:06 AM
Aashika Aashika is offline
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
Human mind is more rational and intelligent than primates though... if any animal can make the decision to give in - it will be humans.
I think its sending wrong message; I mean, think about it, it will end up being one of those scenarios where the victim is simply expected to comply or die if you expect him/her to submit because the accused is causing a mortal danger to the victim.
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  #212  
Old March 20th, 2018, 06:29 AM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
I think its sending wrong message; I mean, think about it, it will end up being one of those scenarios where the victim is simply expected to comply or die if you expect him/her to submit because the accused is causing a mortal danger to the victim.
I agree with Saneless in this case. the stigma needs to be removed. As painful as the topic is......

there should also be effective deterrence which we are missing at this time....
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  #213  
Old March 20th, 2018, 03:09 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
Sane, I dont think giving your body up can be equated to giving your purse away for your own safety. Human mind is not wired that way. Resistance is the primal instinct when someone tries to assault you.
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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
Human mind is more rational and intelligent than primates though... if any animal can make the decision to give in - it will be humans.
Looks like, Aushuka tai, you haven't watched too many National Geographic videos... or have turned away when animals start these things on the street or in the zoo. But mostly animal sex-scenes start out as rape... and then the female of the species gives in. And this is the case in most remote tribes (human) too... like African or Eskimo tribes.

Compare this to food or brood... an animal can kill for food. Rarely do you find an animal share its food... or let you touch its brood. In fact, try snatching food from a dog... or try tying your shoe-lace in front of a hen with its brood. You will see how possessive they are.

Somewhere along the line, some religion or cultural society came in and changed that... mostly by shame and degradation. And this not for the criminal... but for the victim. They made sex, and correspondingly woman, into an object... just like food or brood or a purse. Where sex devalues the object... and rape basically weakens the victim into death.

This needs to change. Rape should just be taken as a precursor to sex. Yes, we are so far gone that this will come as a shock... and an outrage. But that outrage is because of how society has changed the human mind. It has changed human mind such that the victim fights for his/her life in a rape-situation... while the rapist goes to the extent of mutilating the victim to show his/her vile and vilifying power. This should not be the end-result. The end-result should stop at sex... mutual and satisfying sex. And it will take eons to go back there... maybe never
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  #214  
Old March 20th, 2018, 04:31 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

What is going on here? What that policeman said was downright lecherous.
He commemorates a girl's rape/murder by commenting on the mother's physique then extrapolates it to deduce girl's physique. And signing off, he asks girls to surrender. This will surely encourage rapists and discourage girls.
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  #215  
Old March 21st, 2018, 07:01 AM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
Looks like, Aushuka tai, you haven't watched too many National Geographic videos... or have turned away when animals start these things on the street or in the zoo. But mostly animal sex-scenes start out as rape... and then the female of the species gives in. And this is the case in most remote tribes (human) too... like African or Eskimo tribes.

Compare this to food or brood... an animal can kill for food. Rarely do you find an animal share its food... or let you touch its brood. In fact, try snatching food from a dog... or try tying your shoe-lace in front of a hen with its brood. You will see how possessive they are.

Somewhere along the line, some religion or cultural society came in and changed that... mostly by shame and degradation. And this not for the criminal... but for the victim. They made sex, and correspondingly woman, into an object... just like food or brood or a purse. Where sex devalues the object... and rape basically weakens the victim into death.

This needs to change. Rape should just be taken as a precursor to sex. Yes, we are so far gone that this will come as a shock... and an outrage. But that outrage is because of how society has changed the human mind. It has changed human mind such that the victim fights for his/her life in a rape-situation... while the rapist goes to the extent of mutilating the victim to show his/her vile and vilifying power. This should not be the end-result. The end-result should stop at sex... mutual and satisfying sex. And it will take eons to go back there... maybe never
Maybe you have a point that I am unable to understand. My mind surely is conditioned to think that if an undesired touch comes my way, I should (and will) resist it.
The way I understand is that, rape and sex are completely different things. Sex is when you want pleasure. Rape is when you want control, have the need to humiliate and over-power the victim. I think we both agree its not a male-female thing. Usually its female as men tend to over-power women with ease most of the time but its not limited to women alone.

Now, is the need just sex? if yes, then eliminating the degradation part may help. If the need is not just sex, then dont we have a bigger issue? Dont you think the need is far more than pleasure?
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  #216  
Old March 21st, 2018, 08:02 AM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
Maybe you have a point that I am unable to understand. My mind surely is conditioned to think that if an undesired touch comes my way, I should (and will) resist it.
The way I understand is that, rape and sex are completely different things. Sex is when you want pleasure. Rape is when you want control, have the need to humiliate and over-power the victim. I think we both agree its not a male-female thing. Usually its female as men tend to over-power women with ease most of the time but its not limited to women alone.

Now, is the need just sex? if yes, then eliminating the degradation part may help. If the need is not just sex, then dont we have a bigger issue? Dont you think the need is far more than pleasure?
The problem is, desire is a fickle thing. Exists one moment, gone the next or vice versa. It does not take into account the reactions/desires invoked, which may not switch on/off in sync.
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  #217  
Old March 21st, 2018, 08:20 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
Maybe you have a point that I am unable to understand. My mind surely is conditioned to think that if an undesired touch comes my way, I should (and will) resist it.
The way I understand is that, rape and sex are completely different things. Sex is when you want pleasure. Rape is when you want control, have the need to humiliate and over-power the victim. I think we both agree its not a male-female thing. Usually its female as men tend to over-power women with ease most of the time but its not limited to women alone.

Now, is the need just sex? if yes, then eliminating the degradation part may help. If the need is not just sex, then dont we have a bigger issue? Dont you think the need is far more than pleasure?
That is exactly what I am saying. Rape, as observed in the natural world, is all about sex and pleasure. But humans have degraded it into a power-play. And this has happened because of the shaming culture in human societies. If we adapt and evolve ourselves away from this humiliating culture, we can once again make it a game of pleasure and fun.
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  #218  
Old March 22nd, 2018, 10:39 AM
Aashika Aashika is offline
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
That is exactly what I am saying. Rape, as observed in the natural world, is all about sex and pleasure. But humans have degraded it into a power-play. And this has happened because of the shaming culture in human societies. If we adapt and evolve ourselves away from this humiliating culture, we can once again make it a game of pleasure and fun.
currently you are giving me a choice between getting raped and killed.
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  #219  
Old March 22nd, 2018, 04:50 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
currently you are giving me a choice between getting raped and killed.
Not me... society. Put the blame on the right person. Society and culture and religion is to be blamed most for this unnatural usage of rape as a power play. Because of societal shame, the woman has to struggle extremely... which frequently ends up in a life-or-death matter.
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  #220  
Old March 22nd, 2018, 08:10 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
I think its sending wrong message; I mean, think about it, it will end up being one of those scenarios where the victim is simply expected to comply or die if you expect him/her to submit because the accused is causing a mortal danger to the victim.
In case of the 2012 victim, she apparently put a resistance and died. The police chief probably had that in the back of his mind. The justice system should work such that women never get into such a situation. The death sentence for the perpetrators should go some way in this.

Though not sure how far it will go.
People still think that wearing stylish dresses (not necessarily revealing) invites rape

BTW, i am still not sure the message Sangliana was trying to convey. But if it is what media is trying to put in his mouth (rather comply than die), isnt that what Swara Bhaskar was also saying sometime back w.r.t. Padmavat
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Last edited by sgars; March 23rd, 2018 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Added 2012
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  #221  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 01:09 PM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by sgars View Post
In case of the victim, she apparently put a resistance and died. The police chief probably had that in the back of his mind. The justice system should work such that women never get into such a situation. The death sentence for the perpetrators should go some way in this.

Though not sure how far it will go.
People still think that wearing stylish dresses (not necessarily revealing) invites rape

BTW, i am still not sure the message Sangliana was trying to convey. But if it is what media is trying to put in his mouth (rather comply than die), isnt that what Swara Bhaskar was also saying sometime back w.r.t. Padmavat
I am not too sure sgars. I mean, I will easily part with my car or my purse. If you tell me they will spare the life of my kids and me if I let them have their way, then maybe i will comply. But whar are the chances of me getting alive out of this?

The point I am trying to drive home is that, do not put the responsibility on the victim. Whether it is asking her not to step out during night or not to wear what she wants or suggesting to comply or die.
I think the answer lies in a swift and severe punishment to the crime. without exceptions, across the country.

I honestly feel Sane's logic is flawed. I mean, take US for example. its supposed to be a country where victim is not looked down upon if she comes out and says she has been raped. So why do we still have so many rapes happening in US?
I feel its because there is simply no swift justice system.
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  #222  
Old March 24th, 2018, 10:18 AM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

Yeah, maybe India needs more of that - coming out of rape victims. I mean in the current cases, not historical ones.

Also, that #MeToo should be extended to kids of either gender.
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  #223  
Old March 25th, 2018, 09:49 AM
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Re: Delhi gang-rape case

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Originally Posted by Aashika View Post
...

I honestly feel Sane's logic is flawed. I mean, take US for example. its supposed to be a country where victim is not looked down upon if she comes out and says she has been raped. So why do we still have so many rapes happening in US?
I feel its because there is simply no swift justice system.
I am sorry, but I am not saying that rape criminals should not be punished... or the victims do not suffer. I am just saying that human rapes are distinctly different than other animal rapes. And this distinction comes from the formation of societies... whether based on religion or otherwise. Even US is society based on religion... a religion that victimizes the victim. A society that actually stoned the victim in days long gone by. Such genes do not go away within the few generations that we have lived.
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