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  #16  
Old August 16th, 2000, 05:14 PM
krantiveer krantiveer is offline
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Unhappy Nothing has been ever achieved by saying balls or by ringing bells!!

No Kids, No.Never run away from your responsibilities by saying balls or ringing bells.

Krantikari thanks for telling in detail about how a pundit(pujari) takes his bath(snan) and performs (useless,if u don't mind)pujas.I do have to admit that I couldn't resist laughing by your anology between a surgeon performing his surgery and a pundit performing his puja(not to mention in front of his own fantasied idol).

But dear kid what I didnot understand is how you tried to get away by saying that this was misused by some people.You didn't mention who were these some people.How & why they started misusing it.Untouchability as an evil is the one where people were not allowed to see/read/learn your so called vedas(any religious texts) or allowed to join any schools.Where people were not allowed to enter temples,forget about their(brahmin) houses.Where they were not allowed to fetch water from common wells.Where they were not allowed to stay with them(brahmin) but were asked to stay aleast 500ft away from their villages.Where even there touch(no matter what time) was considered impure.Where they were asked to donate their first girl child to god(indirectly to them) in the name of god(that is how devadasi/prostitution started).There is long list but I don't want to waste time on that.Please tell us what you think who they were and why/how did they do that.If you don't believe what I said try to find out for yourself how many non-brahmin/women pundits/pujaris are there in india now and also find out how many were there some 25 years ago.Please atleast try to give a rough guess of both.

Looks like there were lots of questions floating around some of them already answered.Most the questions have a single answer and you will have to look for it yourself with unbiased minds.

Now again lets see what is the population of brahmin/bania(brahmins <5%,total <<15%).First find this out from your sources.Next find out how much percentage of bharat maa's resources(politics/media/business..) is there in their hands.If you don't agree with 90% let say atleast 80%.This must have answered few of your questions.Next who encourages spending on unwanted things like temples/yatras/yagnas/conversions.
Go find out the percentage of brahmins/banias in VHP/RSS/BD/BJP...Again please let me clarify that I am not saying that all brahmin/bania are rascals or whatever you called(I am sure the ones in present forum are not the one's I am talking about when I say brahmin/bania) but the majority of the rest of them.

Why don't you realise that GOD(if he had existed) must have anyway died by eating/smelling/accumulating things which have been already offered to him from years.If not by those things she/he must have died by the seeing the foolishness of the being he has created.So please wake up and look around yourself and you will find answers to all the questions.Either consider GOD has dead or as within you all the time and direct all the revenue to the right place and see to it everyone does that not for me or you but for that beggar(child) that are waiting for that.Who is to blame(who has atleast 80% resources or who has <20%).Does that matter????

USA is a developed nation not just because it is advanced in science/economy but because nobody sleeps empty belly there(provides food coupons to needy).Because there are free libraries everywhere.Because they have dignity of labour.Because Women has all the freedom she is entitled to.Mostly because everybody share the right attitude.

Those who are just concerned about reservations I advice them get rid of the reservation complex and try to develop right attitude and work more harder next time.
Try to give bharat maa the chance to provide free education/free food/free shelter to each one of its child.

Jai hind.


Note:When reading the URL don't read it with a conditioned(biased) mind.Don't go for the title of the URL.Read what is in it along with the dates and names of the newpapers provided and if possible try to visit one of those places.Remember what Swami Vivekananda said "Do not believe until you see with your own eyes and find out the truth yourself".





[Edited by krantiveer on 08-16-2000 at 11:01 PM]
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  #17  
Old August 16th, 2000, 05:45 PM
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echarcha echarcha is offline
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Question So what should be the solution?

I have been following this thread and reading what krantikari and krantiveer both have to say. I also read other users' views. One thing is clear - a lot of water has flown under the bridge since Independence over the reservation issue. This has been a really good discussion.

But now we should move to the next level - action plan?

So the questions now are:
  • 1) How to erase or reduce the social/mental rift created between upper and lower caste due to reservations?

    2) How to ensure that neither upper caste nor lower caste gets cheated out of their rightful admissions to college or government jobs?
These are just two questions popping up right now in my mind. Please feel free to contribute and provide possible solutions.
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  #18  
Old August 16th, 2000, 09:16 PM
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krantikari krantikari is offline
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Talking

Hay Echarcha,

Krantiveer uncle says forget reservation policy . He has been all along giving some numbers (everybody knows no one can verify) 15%, 80%, 20%, 15% and so on ... . Now let me give him some numbers. This <<<15% of the Brahmin/Bania samaj is responsible for the 95% of the total income tax deposited with the government. We are WASTING, mind the term, I am using a very harsh word here, WASTING, this precious resource in so many societies who call themselves social organizations for the underprivileged. Let's say, 20%? Not to mention all the money that is wasted as a result of reserved seats for the professional qualifications like Medical, Engineering etc.. Let us say 50%. If You do not believe me, then go an check it yourself Krantiveer uncle. Now lemme see how much money we are losing by the way of recruiting incompetent SC/ST ppl at responsible positions ... about 15%? Now lets add em up.... 20+50+15 = 85%, 10% goes to the pockets of corrupt politicians. Only 5% is left which is used to pay off debts. 85% Geez, what you doin with all that money?

Now Krantiveer uncle, you should be very grateful to the Brahmin/Bania samaj for supporting the undah-pre-villaged klass. I have all along said that I do not deny the fact that there have been instances of misuse of religion. But Krantiveer uncle, you seem to conveniently *not*look*there* and again raise the same issue. If you still think that religion is to blame, well, you know you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. You yourself have to remove the mental block you have. No one can do it for you. So far as untouchability goes, I strictly feel it is individual's preferance, I feel like touching anyone, I will go ahead and touch him/her. Go ahead and declare, you are never going to touch me and will not allow me near 500ft of you. I will be the happiest person.

Now, for a change, I would like to see a good chunk of Undah-pre-villaged klass to come out and perform, compete at the same level of general category. Inspite of all the privileges they have acquired as reservation in innumerable fields, they do not stop cribbing. They do not take this opportunity to study hard and be at a responsible position. You know in govt. jobs, even promotions come to the reserved candidate faster than to the general class. Again I ask the same question, still, why is it that the undah-pre-villaged not in the top positions as rightly pointed out by Krantiveer uncle? The answer, I gave in my earlier posting, I am repeating...... THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED.... THEY DO NOT WANT TO WORK ..... THEY WANT EVERYTHING FREE .... THEY WANT RESERVATION EVERYWHERE .... Very soon they will be asking for .... MORE AND MORE RESERVATIONS AND YET MORE....

Finally Krantiveer uncle, I want to share a joke with you... now be a sport and laugh with me....

On the wall of the urinal of my collage, these were the words written ....

Who can raise to the highest ?
There was a line drawn and there was a caption to the line.

----------------------- Latest record


About half way below that... there was another line...

----------------------- For SC/ST only
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  #19  
Old August 16th, 2000, 10:31 PM
krantiveer krantiveer is offline
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reply to echarcha

(sorry to mention but I didn't go thru krantikari's previous mail yet)

I think the best solution would be to make education(with food/boarding/other facilities) absolutely free.Also make education compulsory till the age of eighteen(This is already done in countries like Germany).This can be easily done if enough awareness is generated to redirect all the money(which is spent on unwanted rituals & building more temples,daily collections of temples/churches/mosques,money from various scams) into constructive things like this.No matter what background(economic/social) if everybody has equal opportunities from birth things will be much better.


Anybody who can afford should atleast make it a point to build atleast one free library in their village/locality freely accessible to everybody.In my 4 room house I have made one room as a library with lots of books I could afford & donated by friends.This is open for anyone interested.Well, not to mention but this is maintained by my sister(a brahmin).By this I not only provide resources to the needy but also technical help whenever I can.

It must be made compulsory that each & every temple/mosque/church will be kept open round the clock and will be accessible to everybody(poor students for studies/slum dwellers & beggars for shelter/general public for peace & meditation).

Not to mention we all need to change our attitudes.

Note: Reservations for minorities/women do exist in USA.It is called as “affirmative action” in USA( http://www.now.org/issues/affirm/affirmre.html).

Jai Hind.
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  #20  
Old August 17th, 2000, 02:23 AM
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krantikari krantikari is offline
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Like I said, they want everything free. Free? What comes for free? Somebody has to pay. So the government....? Means, indirectly the taxpayers.... means the <<<15% of the Brahmin/Bania society? As if so much reservation was not enough. That is very kind of you to have a library etc.. You indeed are doing a service to the society. Please keep up the good work. I surely am inspired by people who are selfless and unselfish. But I do not at all agree with your opinions. Especially your opinion on Hinduism.

You very conveniently said, you did not read my prev posting... I wonder, do you really want to? I have come up with some questions and their answers... answered some of your questions ... I also in one of my previous postings asked you some questions which also I presume you so very conveniently did not read.

That is a very good idea. I will too conveniently not read any or all portions of your posting and reply. I assume that will be very fine with you.
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  #21  
Old August 17th, 2000, 11:31 AM
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echarcha echarcha is offline
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Cool I am really happy to have you guys on echarcha

Hi Krantiveer and Krantikari,

I am really happy to have you guys on echarcha. I have rarely seen such postings where each party has debated the issue at hand with cool and logical reasoning. Usually after a few posts and replies, folks tend to get irritated and start using foul language. Glad that I have two serious users.

I believe that with the rapid advent of Internet in India, a much greater awareness and change can be ushered in via this new digital medium. This is the reason that echarcha was put up. To let people voice their opinions and make suggestions. I am sure that as time goes by, this heightened awareness will bring about the positive change that India needs.

I would like to also invite you to start discussions on other problems facing India - viz. external threats to our national security.

Looking forward to your 'charcha' on eCharcha
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  #22  
Old August 17th, 2000, 03:53 PM
krantiveer krantiveer is offline
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Thanks a ton eCharcha.

I really appreciate you echarcha not only for eCharcha.com's professional management but also for
your concern for bharat maa and its problems.I agree that proper understanding of the issues with logical reasoning will be very healthy for each one of us.You are indeed doing a great job.Don't forget to mail me if someday you come up with some good project(like eCharcha) for children of our bharat maa.I will try my best to provide you all the help I can.

By the way,I am already 26(twenty six) years old and I realize that there is still a lot I have to do and time remaining is very less.I owe a lot to bharat maa.

Jai Hind.

Note for Krantikari: Sorry kid,I might have not answered some of your questions but I swear that was not intentional.Most of your questions didn't look like questions to me but they rather looked like supportive statements for whatever I have been saying right from the beginning. Lets try to give our best to bharat maa.Please do pen down if you had any other solutions in mind to questions posed by eCharcha earlier.Thanks.

"Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has. "-- Margaret Mead

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything.They just MAKE the best of
everything!"

"All (just)religions are made for man and no man is(was) ever made for a particular religion.If we want to organise, consolidate and be successful in this world, we should change the current notion of religion(hinduism)".
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  #23  
Old August 18th, 2000, 06:03 AM
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Hinduism, Is a very just religion. Every action and rituals are properly justified in the scriptures. One has to put efforts into getting access to the right scriptures. Often, scriptures are misinterpreted. And then the problem starts. Often, one does not understand the scriptures properly. Very often, scriptures are translated improperly to satisfy the vested interests of some ppl. That doesn’t make Hinduism untrue. It is the ppl who are wrong.

I agree with Krantiveer on the fact that we ppl have to change ourselves, .. we who call ourselves a Hindu, should try to be a true Hindu. Religion is absolute, thus cannot be changed. People are relative... so have to change.

One more thing... Making libraries .. free education facilities ... etc.. sound very good. Even if made practicable somehow, will not solve the problem. Not unless the under-privileged DESIRE to get ahead. I can be given a 100 books to read... If I do not read them .. then nobody can help.

So it is not just the <<<15% Brahmin/Bania who should become a proper Hindu/OtherReligion, It is the >>>85% Underprivileged who should have the desire to compete and florish.

Do you really think Krantiveer, without the desire, and with everything you listed out and more... the underprivileged can prosper? Tell me, how many(%) people from your village seriously come and read your books in the library? How many(%) just take the book and return without even attempting to read? Please find out.. You do not have to give me the figures.

Desire to succeed will take a person to dizzy heights. This holds true for everyone. It is true that most Brahmin/Bania have the desire .. so they succeed. Most under-privileged ... just keep wishing and don't desire ... so they do not succeed. See ... Dr. Ambedkar desired ... he succeeded.
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  #24  
Old August 21st, 2000, 01:43 PM
vivek_lahoti vivek_lahoti is offline
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well,
i am not the kind whos sober and will tell krantiveer that he is just a kid or something.
he is a complete idiot who is just anti BJP or something. i dont think hinduism or anyone who is practising it does any harm to it.
whats your problem if anyone wants to show his sentiment or gratitude towards god by praying, even if its in the form of a yagnya or a havan.
and whats up with ur brahmin/baniya talking.
if you are going to talk like that, i dont think we can call you SECULIAR.
i dont think BJP ever stopped anyone from reading the koran or doing namaz.
infact, i got a lots of muslim friends whose parents voted for bjp coz no other party was giving good governance.
just imagine if we had that scene of unstability still, what we had b4 this government, only people like mayawati and lallo would benifit (and maybe you, coz i guess you are their kind).
frankly, the image you put up by by showing all those links is that you are some SC, ST, BC, OBC or a narrow minded muslim.
(muslims are not narrow minded. i dont want to offend the community. they are good people. but this particular young man is pathetic).
yeah, tell us about ambedkar. i wonder if his thoughts ever matched with whatever you said.
ramayana doesnt make any sense to you and it preaches blind faith and social eveils. you probably have forgotten your values or your prents didnt teach them to you. or you find playboy a better piece of literature coz thats how your mentality seems.
regarding brahmins maintaing the top positions, well, if you got some little brais in your head, why dont you work hard and get where they are.
you are a moron.
or an SC ST.
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  #25  
Old August 21st, 2000, 02:07 PM
cestmoi cestmoi is offline
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Angry Please Don't Waste Your Time In Replying To This Idiot

HEY people please don't waste your time in replyying to this krantiveer he just seems to attract attention and thats all.

We all have other good things to debate about and it's just a wastage of time to discuss such baseless issues .

I wonder how this moron just succedded in attracting ur attention .

Hey echarcha please close this thread now we have had enuff and we don't want more .

You can see for urself no one has supported this krantiveeer anywhere.

Suggestion:

hey ehcarcha if u are really keen to make your dotcome venture a sucess i suggest that you should have 15% of the forums reserved for the Scheduled Caste

7.5% of the forums reserved for the Scheduled Tribes

25% forums reserved for the Backward Castes

37.5% of the forums reserved for the Other backward tribes (OBC's)

This way since these untouchable's who constitute 85% of the Indian Population Pollution and Corruption will have no complaints at all for ur being least concerned about them .

And since they are in the majority so u have to make these reservations otherwise You'll be court Marshalled

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  #26  
Old August 21st, 2000, 02:20 PM
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Wink Hi cestmoi

Hi cestmoi,

I take note of your points but you see that this is a site for free and open charcha. So even if krantiveer has no supporters amongst the registered users on this site, I cannot take sides

So let krantiveer air his views - all of you are free to reply to him. Thats what echarcha is for

On a serious note, I feel that reservations in India should be on a economic basis. A poor man should have a greater chance to compete with his not-so-poor peers. I do not like to distinguish people just becasue they are of a certain caste. Since some castes were oppressed, they have been provided special reservations. Now things shoudl evolve with the changing times. I feel that for the furture, economic basis should be the criteria for reservations.
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  #27  
Old August 22nd, 2000, 12:32 AM
cestmoi cestmoi is offline
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Ok echarcha

Ok echarcha I have got the answer that you too support us all but u can't take sides.

Your silence has said everything .

Thanx for welcoming me if only i was welcomed in the way u welcome the gandu's in gandmasti.....



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