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  #1  
Old November 20th, 2000, 05:30 PM
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Dear Prime Minister Vajpayee ji,

With all due respects, I feel that instead of offering cease fire for a month due to Islamic holy celebrations, you should give away this Kashmir and once and for all end this issue. It will be very shameful and salt added to injury as many soldiers have given up their life for this piece of land.

Separatism in India is on the rise in almost all corners of the nation. All those in your NDA government will never let you take firm steps towards Kashmir or any other separatist movement.

We cannot even nab a forest brigand in our backyard... so why worry about preserving Kashnir which is devoid of any people who really want to be part of India. Those who want to be, have already fled for fear of their lives and settled somewhere else.

Basically people of India do not want the concept of a majority party as ruling party and minorty parties in Opposition. So be it... Why do you worry so much? When people dont realise that a majority party in power is really needed to decide on certain policies, especially foreign policy and then take steps to implement it. If people dont care... why do you struggle and offer peace and ceasefire for a month?

Whether BJP or Congress or any other party is a majority at the center, it will allow atleast smoother ruling and implementation of policies - however daft these policies of a particular ruling party may turn out to be. If the people suffer from it, then they will have a definite chance to ouster the majority ruling party in the next elections. This is much better than the current chaos. Any constituent member of your NDA can demand anything and you have to bow down. Forget it... The people have made a choice to let chaos rule the center without realising that India is yet too immature for coalition governments... You relax and take care of your health. You have done enough for the nation, now its time to sit back and relax! WHy worry? Be Happy?

You might think that I am linking two irrelevant issues, but please dont blame me... I too am confused like many Indians.

I really dont understand whether we should attack Pakistan all out or attack terrorist camps in Pakistan or just talk peace all the time or let our soldiers die in vain or give up Kashmir or something else. I just dont understand our policy towards Kashmir except "We will negotiate" repeated so many times by you and the governments before you. So I am confused.Call me dumb if you will.

But one thing I do understand. I understand that if we (we means all in the government - whether in opposition or NDA) dont have any firm policy or plan of action about separatist movements, then one day I will require a visa to visit New Delhi or Punjab or Assam or Kashmir or for that matter any part of the current geographical landscape of our country from my home town Mumbai!

I say you just get rid of the whole problem - give away Jammu and Kashmir. Khel khatam.. Paisa Hazam!
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  #2  
Old November 20th, 2000, 07:00 PM
The Real Deal The Real Deal is offline
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Give up Kashmir :)

There are two possibility about your this attitude, either you are instant Pakistani supporter or you are not capable to fight with situation.

If such step will start from government then surely you will need visa for Kashmir and so in every part of India where ever Muslim are in majority.

As I said in my earlier post somewhere, that the problem with Muslim is not the religion but the less educated people who misguide equally educated masses.

The time of medieval history is in vein and then even Christian were also fighting in same manner but Muslim are still living in same medieval age.

You may wonder why I expressed these things in this thread, well this is the reality which is not going to change and one can easily observe the recent movement in Pakistan during Gurunanak birthday while lot of Sikh visited.

Then you will come and ask Vajpayee (with equally due respect showing like you really do) that give up Punjab, and take rest .

Indeed, sometime I wonder people eat and live in India everything they share equally and think about other nation
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  #3  
Old November 20th, 2000, 08:55 PM
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Unhappy You failed to see my point

Hi Real Deal,

You failed to see my point as I was sarcastic about the whole thing!

Dont you get it? I am not asking for separation but being caustic and sarcastic to the present government about the lingering J&K problem.

Where does Muslim and religion and all that come here?

Dont you see the sarcasm? I am confused as to what the government really intends to do beyond the oft repeated "we will negotiate and peace" mantra! I am surprised by your failure to see this sarcasm
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  #4  
Old November 20th, 2000, 09:24 PM
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Question caustic and sarcastic

Understand you point usg and sorry. Anyway, I read your post again and as for its being caustic and sarcastic, my post may not be relevant for latter (may be not ok with this thread but have one view so I'm not going to delete that) but its still relevant for former.
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  #5  
Old November 21st, 2000, 08:08 AM
Siraj Siraj is offline
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Sade hue ang ko fenk dena hi achcha hai?

It is said that the Kasmiri people need freedom. Pakistan being a Muslim country supports it, with very obvious interest, to take over Kasmir.

If as suggested by USG, we are ready to give up Kasmir (Only Some Districts of J&K, not Ladakh), it will create some interesting chaos in the Kasmir and in the Pakistan.

Pakistan, all of a sudden will become happy to receive this gift, and as usual become mad, people will come on the streets and celebrate. The Kasmiri people from both ends will all start celebrating the things.

Once the celebration is over, there will be big fight between Kasmir and Pakistan. Pakistan will try to keep Kasmir with it, and Kasmiri people will try to have separate nation. There should be lot of blood for this.

India, watching catefully this thing will support the freedom of Kasmir and will become friend nation of Kasmir and will earn faith of the people of Kasmir.

If India get success in the Freedom of Kasmir, it will be huge political victory (of course loosing Karmir as a state is big shame but..), and for Pakistan it should be begining of further partitions. The next agenda for India should be Sindh.

Pakistan after loosing Kasmir will try to add fuel in the separate Khalistan movement, I don't know, how it will get success, but it will be definately able to increase the violence in that part of India.

India will need to keep pakistan busy in the internal politics, by supporting Sindh, Pakhtunistan, Baluchistan etc.

The Ladakh people may also raise their voice of having separate nation, which India may give, with the same status as Bhutan.

So, the bottomline is that even after giving up Kasmir there is no solution.

The people from both the countries are good. The blame should go to the politics which adds fuel to the fire.

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  #6  
Old November 21st, 2000, 11:32 AM
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Siraj,

A good movie can be made on this, amazing story....

This way a day is not far where all states of India will ask for freedom. That's what you want???

You:
"The people from both the countries are good. The blame should go to the politics which adds fuel to the fire"

I never knew that politics came directly from Andromeda galaxy and not from people. I haven't seen a single instance of protest from people of both country regarding this ongoing struggle. You need to visit some Pakistani
discussion forums, they might open up your eyes regarding junta's stand.


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  #7  
Old November 21st, 2000, 01:23 PM
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Pakistani people??!!

I agree completely with Me I was once chatting with a Pakistani medical student she is known there as Mohajir
and looked down upon she told me something which simply
amazed me!.Once their professor asked them the name of the
country which has the largest number of diabetes patients in the world.No one could answer finally one of the Pakistani students got up and said the answer is India!The teacher accepted the answer as correct..on that
the whole class got up on their feet and clapped!!shouting Pakistan zindabad!!.Siraj this is the Pakistani student crowd for you.They are not taught secularism like us Indians.They dont even think of us as humans we Indians are
Kafirswho are to be killed!.(even if you are from the backward castes)

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  #8  
Old November 21st, 2000, 01:43 PM
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My dear friend I am Partially agree with Siraj that once
Kashmir is given Freedom the pakistan involvment will be in Khalistan .But the first and prime question is Why Pakistan should interfere in Kashmir only because muslims are in majority there .
I think politicians should not be balmed for this because all indians want kashmir in India and vice versa .
BAsicallly this problem is bound to happen .This is not because of Pakistan but it is because of Islam .Islamic terrorist has been the point of concern all over the world .
Just by the name of Allah they are ready for any kind of Jehad .From the time immemorial u will find that the forced conversion was practised only by Islam .
History says it was Muslims who attacted india and that the reason of muslim population in India .
Whole over the world 99.99% terrorist will be Islam sponsered by big rich country .
India support Phalestine but u talk to any Phalestine ,I bet they support Pakistan only because they are Islams.
My dear friend I bet this problem will be there .What
india goverment should do is
(1) Kill all the Millitant who are in Jail
(2) Evacuate Kashmir and shift all the People to Millitary control area
(3) If one soldier is killed kill 10 kashmiries
and blame on Millitant
(4)Donot worry for Human rights commission and Pakistan
(5)Do the above and u can see the results in 3 months
I bet











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  #9  
Old November 21st, 2000, 02:02 PM
Siraj Siraj is offline
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I have also some experiences of the Pakistani people. All of them in a sigle voice said that the people of both the countries are having same look, same food, same language then why two separate nations? Why both are fighting? This is because of politics. One shop owner lady said that give me a gun I will kill all politicions.

I don't agree with her in totality, but just to stress that the hate amogest the people is generated by the politics.

Yes, as a whole we share same thing. We hate Pakistan and the same way they hate India. I don't think it should translate to the people.

We (Indians) are very much broad minded and very acceptive about the things. That is why even after 5000 years India is still there as a nation.

Kasmir is like crown over the Mother India. I can't imagine India's map without Kasmir. I saw such maps in Pakistani texts and it really hearts me. But the world is changing. If Quebec can vote for some peoples demand to have separate nation, if East Timor is about to be separate nation from the Indonasia, we should also be ready to accept the voice of the people. Provided the voice is of the people, not from the terrorist.

I agree that the Ideas suggested by Aksuman will solve the problem for now, but it can not be a permanant solution. Why should we kill innocent Kasmiri people?

Me, when I was writing that I did not realize that it can be a amazing story. Should we start refining the story?


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  #10  
Old November 21st, 2000, 02:06 PM
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Thumbs up

I completely agree with aksuman!!
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  #11  
Old November 21st, 2000, 02:26 PM
aksuman aksuman is offline
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Thank You Tsunani .
I have written all this because what I have experienced in my life
I am from REC Trichy and there was some J&K reserve seat .
I swear coming from remote place in Bihar I never had any feeling towards Muslims because I had very good muslim friends there.
But in my college some 4 people + 1 girl joined us .Some two of them were good friend of mine .But I was surprised one day when I was discussing with them about Pakistan .
I thought that at least these gentle man ,Educated one will support India in any issue but nothing happen like that.
The fucking kashmiries sala khate hain India ka aur gate hain Pakistan ka.
They must be treated well unless they become true Indian.
Bye
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  #12  
Old November 21st, 2000, 08:40 PM
The Real Deal The Real Deal is offline
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agree with aksumans and partially with Siraj

I completely agree with aksumans idea and that will really be a good solution but in practical its not possible in today's world given the fact India is democratic nation. However the case would have been different if we would have some Musharraf or China Legacy.

Well I can also partially be agree with Siraj. But don't you think that peoples sentiment is simply mislead by our parosi creating different circumstances. There was a time when even Virginian have fought for their identity in US. Can anyone even imagine it today.

My friend this all are just shit. Kashmir either you count history (any ancient or modern) or in anyway, Pakistan can never claim about it just because its having more Muslim. And if this theory is acceptable then all Muslim should be in Pakistan(no offense pls. remember if). Neither they should interfere about it. A princely state was meant to merge with any nation of their choice and in past its ruled by King Ranjit Singh and in ancient past it was Takshila area. Modern it is ruled by Harisingh (doesn't matter if he bought it or win it, he was just King and it was princely state)

Pakistan even misguiding people(Sikh) who only came in existence to protect Hindu society from Muslim. Any manipulation is possible in this world and what other best example I can give you other than Virgina case.

So one can manipulate always by saying Assmeses are then Naga are different then Bangalis are different then Jharkhandi are different then Udriya are different then Tamil are different then Telgu are different then Kannada are different then Malyali are different then Marathi are different then Gujariti are different then MPs(Bhil) are different then Rajasthani are different then Himanchali are different(Pahadi) then Uttaranchali are different then Goan is different the Delight are different then Kasmiri are different then UPs are different.

When all these will finish then it will start that in Kashmir Jammu is different then laddakh is different and similarly in Bihar I herd their are couple of languages their and so people will start differing them by Bhojpuri, Hindi, etc. etc. It will never end. Its just acceptance and Muslim from their history don't have this acceptance (Hindu too but not that aggressive they accept thing)

That is why their is sect problem at intense level with Balauchi, Panjabi, Sunni, Shiya, Ahamadi etc (Hindu too but as a whole if leave Bihar behind then their isn't that much fight but attitude problem does exist)

So simply at any cost we can not give up Kashmir and their is no theory which can prove that Kashmir is of Pakistan or even Kashmir are different than other Indian people, What ever difference theory they may give that exists all over India and that is the reality with India so that theory in Indian context is void, although Paistan differ people by their consitution and their is intense fight between Mohajir, Panjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, Ahamadi etc. etc. and theory can be applied with them so the part of kashmir they have they can not claim for that by any thoery other than Muslim majority


[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-21-2000 at 11:52 PM]
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  #13  
Old November 22nd, 2000, 07:03 AM
aksuman aksuman is offline
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Why cannot I see next thread
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  #14  
Old November 22nd, 2000, 07:12 AM
aksuman aksuman is offline
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Very Good Real deal Very .I agree with u very much .
Pakistan can never claim that the Kashmir belongs to them .
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  #15  
Old November 22nd, 2000, 09:40 AM
Siraj Siraj is offline
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The logic behind keeping Kasmir with India is right. In case of Kasmir it was the king who decided to merge it with India. There is very well-known history behind that. However what people were thinking that time? To merge with India or Pakistan? Remember majority of them were muslims.

In case of Junagadh it happened other way. The king wanted to merge with Pakistan, but majority of the state people were Hindus (90% or more), so the King had to leave the place and the people won the battle and it merged with India. The same happend to Nizam.

If we look at that perspective, Pakistan can claim Kasmir. I do not say that the claim is right, as it was agreement between Maharaja Harising and India, and no one should challenge it.

We are very much thankful to Saradar Patel for his great work of merging all the small and big kingdoms to India. Without that the current map of India might not be there.

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