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  #1  
Old April 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM
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Thumbs down Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

'Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster'

Way to go with reservation policy! Let us all screw the last few institutions of higher learning with appeasement policies like reservations. Yippeee!!

Vive Le China! I wish China all the big success that it rightfully deserves. We Indians dont deserve any!


Quote:

'Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster'
April 03, 2006 20:50 IST


Tired of defending its autonomy time and again, the Indian Institute of Management-Ahmedabad Monday said it really needs to use its resources for education than waste it on making the government see reason.

"Freedom and autonomy are the key elements necessary for the smooth functioning of educational institutions," IIM-A Director Bakul Dholakia said, adding that institutions like IIMs and IITs were, however, currently more pre-occupied with "managing governments" instead of focussing their resources on education.

"It is unfortunate. Managing governments should be our least concern," he added.

The outburst comes in the wake of the centre's proposed move to create quotas for recruitment of teachers and students in the IIMs and Indian Institutes of Technology.

"The government has so far not interfered in the selection of teachers. However, the new proposal for reservation in IITs and IIMs will inevitably bring that freedom to an end," said professor P V Indiresan, former director of IIT-Madras.

"Teachers are the seeds of intellectual crop of the future; they have to be the best," he said, adding that deciding the salaries and remuneration of the teachers was another area where educational institutions needed more autonomy.

Dholakia felt the representatives of the premier institutes could not argue beyond a point with the government on matters related to finance, autonomy, or others.

"Sometimes I feel there is a complete lack of rationality on the other (government's) side," Dholakia said.

Prof Indiresan was more vocal about the 'interference' of the government in the affairs of premier institutions.

"Senior political leaders have argued that the government had nurtured institutions like IITs and IIMs during their infancy; they have supported them for long years and hence they have the right of ownership," he said.
"However, that does not mean that we should be bound to the government forever," he added.

"IITs and IIMs have repaid investments the government has made in them. Now they have repaid their debt, they should be freed from their bondage, should be left free to grow as in the same way as we let our children to make their own life even though we nurtured them in their infancy," Indiresan, who was also a former faculty at IIT-Delhi, said.
He also expressed his distress at the new policy of having bureaucrats on the board of IITs.

"However competent or sincere they may be, bureaucrats are servants of the government and they are bound to take orders from their ministers which could subvert the welfare of the institutions," Inderesan said.
On the proposed reservation for students in IITs and IIMs, Indiresan said the move would be a "disaster".

"The proposed 49.5 per cent reservation for students in IITs and IIMs will be a disaster, because reservation at a late stage (in a student's life) is ineffective and inappropriate as these institutions cannot correct years of neglect and irreparable damage that has been done to the student," he said.

The government needs to adopt the UK-model and select students from backward classes when they are young and nuture them, instead of neglecting them at a primary stage and give them special privilege of reservation when it is too late, he remarked.

"Having caught the reservation bug, the central government will destroy the IITs and IIMs, the same way as the state governments had destroyed their own universities," he said while citing an example of Allahabad University.

"Once reservation is enforced at faculty level, communal canker will spread, political interference will become unmanageable and collapse is inevitable," the professor said.

"The politicians are able to gain an upper hand because IITs and IIMs have chinks in their armour- they have not done enough for the poor," Indiresan added.

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Old April 3rd, 2006, 01:28 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

This quota and reservation issue will never ever die in India....
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Old April 3rd, 2006, 01:38 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan
This quota and reservation issue will never ever die in India....
I think I should track China's progress and in future invest in China. I think China will deliver consistently. India.. Well I am an Indian but I dont think we Indians are ready yet to deserve the fruits of a booming economy brought about my merit and competence based hard work and increasing quality of performance. I think China deserves it. Infact, I feel their dictatorial regime is a much better way to control such a huge population. I can imagine, why their government does not want democracy. Look what happened to us.
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Old April 3rd, 2006, 02:01 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

What a shame....ab to kuch bach hi nahi gaya lagta hai jaha reservation na ho.
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Old April 3rd, 2006, 02:35 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

IMHO...govt. is only namesake in India....India is being run by Defense forces, Supreme Court and the private sector...mess with these 3 and its all over...
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Old April 8th, 2006, 06:58 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Man,this is getting more and more pathetic by each passing day.Even more shameful is the fact that political leaders are doing it for votes and none of the political parties(except ShivSena) is opposing it.The people who are getting benefit are going to feel happy as usual.
I guess letting them implement increased reservation and seeing its hazards is not going to change anything.We have many people who just see their benefit and nothing else.Even if all of private sector companies withdraw from India ,noone is going to advocate the eradication of reservation.Situation looks grim.
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Old April 8th, 2006, 09:35 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

there's an online petition going on to prevent this....dont know if it'll make any difference....The worst thing is that it'll be very tough to revert back to the original state...but u can try... http://www.petitiononline.com/No_Quota/petition.html
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Old April 9th, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Some time last year I had (in the forum about 50% reservation in private sector) compared the congress to the Commedo Dragon.
You see this prehistoric lizard can't 'catch' its fleet footed prey(the deer and wild buffaloes) that share the island with these Dragons.So these lizards slowly sneak upto their 'victims' who,confident that they can always easily outrun these lizards don't bother their approach as long as it is SLOW.Now,when the lizards sneaks up close enough,it suddenly lunges at their victim,and the much quicker victim easily 'moves' out of reach of the sneaky bastard.But,many a times,the lizard does manage to 'nick' the victim with its sharp teeth!--and herein lies the rub!
The lizard's mouth is extremely foul--about as foul as all those hindu-haters parading as 'seculars'---and so deposits some of the microorganisms in the wound it's sharp teeth make.The victim 'escapes' on that 'immediate' ocassion,but the wound festers,and a severe infection develops eventually which brings down the greatly sickened and weakened animal---and that's when the Dragons feast on it!
The congress nicks sections of Hindu society and deposits the dirt of reservations----those sewctions heave and haw for some time, but eventually offer easy pickings at the hustings!
And when you realize that a majority of Indians are 'Dumb And Dependent'(that's why we continue to be a backward 'Third World(ie Third Class)country even six decades after independence!),is it any wonder such a cannibalistic policy and attitude works?!
But this time the congress has goofed it up.None of the 'usual suspects'bit the bait and opposed the bill/ordinance;in fact casteist parties lioke the SP,JDU,RJD etc..will claim these measures are not enough!So,none of these parties will be overtly affected by this 'quota strategy',while the congress will be stuck with the stigma of being the reservation party of India.
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Old April 10th, 2006, 10:21 AM
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Reservation quota: Who gains? Who loses?

Read this excellent take on the Reservation issue by an IIM, B'lore alumni.....
Quote:
Reservation quota: Who gains? Who loses?
Saurabh Agrawal

I graduated from IIM Bangalore last year and am now currently working with HSBC, Investment Banking in London. I read about the possible 49.5% reservation in the central universities (including IIMs and IITs) on your website and will like to share my views on it.

I believe the best way to arrive at any conclusion is to do a 'stakeholders analysis' of the decision to reserve 49.5% seats in the central universities. The analysis is based on my personal experience at IIM Bangalore, hampered by the limited knowledge of other institutes, most of my analysis is based on the educational pattern in an IIM hopefully this will be relevant to other universities as well. In my view the key stakeholders of this decision should be:

1. Central Government, 2. The institutions, 3. Prospective candidates (further broken down in general and backward classes, for the sake of analysis), and 4. Society in general (primarily compromising of corporates recruiting at these universities).

Here is what these stakeholders gain or lose from the proposed policy:

The losers:

- Prospective candidates (backward classes): The institutes of higher education, like IITs and IIMs, are centres of excellence in India, primarily because of the quality of students joining them. With the amount of time that a candidate spends in these places (around 1.5 years in academic studies in an IIM) it is impossible to change the fundamental knowledge level of a student. These institutions rely more on the initial knowledge base of the students and build up on that by a open atmosphere for discussion among peers and quick inputs of theory by the high quality faculty. If a candidate has not received proper education and/or, does not have a initial knowledge base to build on, he will find himself completely out of the place. It is next to impossible for these institutes to change the candidate completely at the later stage of his life, which would eventually lead to a total loss for those candidates, who didn't had a proper education beforehand.

Besides, the ultimate aim of a candidate is to find a good job offer after their university education. The reservation may help these candidates in getting admission in the universities, but if the companies are not convinced with the quality, they would rather go empty handed than recruiting them- which once again leads to waste of some crucial time for these candidates.

- Prospective candidates (general class): Every seat given to less deserving candidate because of the politics of reservation, implies a deserving candidate from the general background is being penalised for being born in a particular caste- something which is out of his control!

- The universities: As already mentioned the methodology employed by the institutes like, IIMs and IITs, is to build up on the already high knowledge base of the candidates (This commitment to quality of input is so severe that IIMs are at times criticised as just being a screening point rather than an educational institute). A significant amount of learning in these institutes is through peer to peer interaction in and outside the classroom. A compromise on the quality of students would imply a total loss of the component of learning from peers. Taking the liberty to use an example from the operations management, the limiting factor (the process having least capacity) determines the throughput rate of the entire system.

The knowledge gained through group work/ projects etc. will diminish if people are not at similar level of knowledge base. This will have a major impact on the overall quality of education being imparted by these institutes- both inside and outside the classroom.

Also, a major factor in determining the ranking and reputation of these institutes is the placement after the programme. If merit is not the only criteria in admissions, the placement figures are bound to go down having adverse impact on the reputation of these institutes.

- Society (particularly corporates recruiting from these institutes): With the Indian economy growing at a fantastic rate, India Inc needs an ever growing supply of competent management and technical grads from the top quality institutes in this country. Compromising on meritocracy means restricting the supply of competent grads for the Indian companies.

The sole winner (?):

- Government: The UPA government will have a short term benefit in terms of gaining the vote bank of the SC/STs and OBCs. But even in the long term they will lose out due to the adverse impact of the policy.

Conclusion: A policy which has adverse impact on all the major stakeholders, being forced through to gain some votes by the our central government. On this auspicious occasion of Ram navmi, I just hope that Ishwar provides some intelligence to our political leaders!

Alternative suggestion: If the development of the backward class is the real agenda of the government, which in my view is a legitimate concern, I suggest starting a new program for them. It can be say, 1 year pre program training for them or, may be a different program of longer length than the normal one. But all of these will be short term measures, the real need is to tackle the problem from where it originates, right at the primary educational level, i.e. ensuring that all the children of this nation irrespective of caste or religion getting high quality education from their childhood!

source: expressindia.com
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Old April 10th, 2006, 10:11 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Hmm... I think the loser will be India Inc.

India was coming up in world economy and before the dream can be realised completely, the whole thing is on a downhill. I have never seen such skill at spoiling what is good. I mean even the most evil person will have to think a bit before screwing up his enemy. Here our politicians are so expert that even the vilest villain will feel ashamed.

I really feel sad that this action now will screw our educational institutions and fuck all the 'stake holders' permanently.
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Old April 10th, 2006, 11:11 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

S_S has quoted an intelligently written article by SA--but in Marathi there is a saying:Gadhva Pudhey Waachlee Gita Un Kaalcha Gondhal Bara Hota!
Such arguements work amongst decent folks,not cannibals and parasites!
And I have yet to come across a mosquito that's stopped living off the blood of people simply because some die of Malaria,Filaria,Brain-Fever etc..
Because of these bozos, Public Sector went down the drain---they don't give a damn.Because of them we have a system that couldn't convict anyone for murdering a hapless Lall in front of 20-30 people---they don't give a damn.Because of them passengers die in innumerable train accidents(most of the times due to 'human error')---they don't give a damn.
These guys hacked India for the sake of power and pelf.We have to be rank idiots to expect any 'noble' and responsible behaviour from them!
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Old April 10th, 2006, 11:15 PM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

What is the way out of this mess?What do we do then?
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Old April 11th, 2006, 12:49 AM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Ultimately, does quota help?
Manish Chandra Pandey
Lucknow, April 10



Reserved category students found wanting when it comes to performance

AS THE great ‘reserve vs deserve’ debate rages across the country, statistics reveal that deserving candidates who make it to management/technical or academic institutes on merit have performed far better than the ones who take the reservation route.

But that’s a part of the story. The reality is that quota merely helps in getting in, not in sailing through. The loss thus is two fold. One, the meritorious candidates are unable to get in because of reservation and two those for whom the quota system ostensibly is aimed at, don’t benefit either.

Whether it is at IIM Lucknow, BHU, GSVM Medical College, Kanpur, Allahabad University or Allahabad’s Motilal Nehru Institute of Technology, everywhere one thing is clear: that in the ultimate analysis it is class that prevails over caste.

As a senior IIM teacher said, “In the long run quota actually harms the students simply because through reservation one might get in but then there is no guarantee that the student would be able to survive on various parameters during his/her stay on the campus.”

In 2004-5, at IIM-L an abnormally high number of students after being found wanting on various parameters, had to repeat the postgraduate programme I (PGP I) class. Some ‘dropped out’. Majority of them were ‘quota’ candidates.

In fact, in general surgery department of BHU’s Institute of Medical Sciences (IMS), out of 50 students, 38 are admitted under general category while the remaining 12 get their admission under SC/ST quota.

“While majority of the candidates admitted under the general category were very good, the performance of 8 of the 12 candidates admitted through the quota was bad. The other four were average,” Dr SK Gupta, reader, General Surgery, IMS BHU told HT on phone on Monday.

In Kanpur, the academic record of the Ganesh Shankhar Vidyarthi Memorial Medical College is on the decline due to poor performance of students who get admission under reserved category through Combined Pre-Medical Entrance Test.

This year alone 50 per cent students of Schedule Caste category failed in the MBBS final year examination. Astonishingly, out of the remaining 50 per cent, over 35 per cent had to be given grace marks to get through, says a senior faculty of the medical college.

However, students under the Other Backward Classes (OBC) have performed better than the students of general category. This year’s result shows that 9.6 per cent OBC students failed in the final year examination against the fail percentage of 15.7 per cent of medicos of the general category.

According to records, over 50 per cent SC students do not make it in the main batch examination conducted every year.

In the year 2005-6, a total of 184 candidates appeared in the final year MBBS examination conducted by the GSVM college. Out of 32 SC candidates, 16 got failed. Many of them failed in four subjects like medicine, paediatrics, surgery, obstetrics and gynaecology.

On the other hand, OBC candidates have proved that they no longer rely on any reservation to get through to the medical entrance test. This year 42 OBC candidates appeared in the exam and only 4 got failed.

At the Allahabad University (AU), the scene is no different.“We have observed that 60 per cent of the SC/ST students appearing in the final exams fail in BSc, half of them fail in B Com. Even in BA, the fail percentage is as high as 40 per cent. Students of other categories do much better,” admitted Prof HS Upadhyaya, Controller of Exams, AU.

“Imagine this was the scene when the quota was 22.5 per cent for SC/ST and 3 per cent for handicapped. Now, if the government were to include the OBC quota too, the entire IIM and IIT system would collapse,” a senior IIM teacher remarked. Teachers say that they are easily able to distinguish between the quota candidates and the general ones. “Through experience, responses, conduct and performance you are able to make that out,” a senior IIM teacher remarked.

Echoing similar sentiments, a faculty member in the Chemical Engineering Department of IT-BHU Dr PK Mishra said the institute now conducts special one-year ‘preparatory classes’ (since 2002) for the students of SC/ST category to get the reserved seats filled.

He said before 2002, most of the seats allocated under reserved category remained vacant as the candidates could not get through the competition (though marks percentage in the entrance examination for these candidates was kept lower than the general candidates).

“Therefore, while on the one hand the general students study for four years to get his BTech degree, the SC/ST students study five year to get the same degree,” he said. Ironically, he too admitted that pressure was on them when these candidates did not perform well even after expiry of the deadline for obtaining degrees. “Ultimately we are left with no option but to ensure their smooth passage in the examination,” he said. Giving a general picture of this ‘category’ scenario, he said only 20 to 30 per cent students of reserved category were found average or above average and got good jobs while the remaining 60 to 70 per cent failed to even get a job. He said instead of enhancing reservation, the government should extend better facilities at the primary stage to enable them to fight the competitive examinations on their own.

Source

Last edited by 2gud; April 11th, 2006 at 12:51 AM.
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Old April 11th, 2006, 01:54 AM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

There must be 49% reservation seats for SC/ST/NT & OBC in IIM
There must be 49% reservation seats in IIT and in IIT GATE/ M. TEch also.
Otherwise How the downtroden people will learn higher education????
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Old April 11th, 2006, 04:17 AM
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Re: Quotas in IIMs will be a disaster

Another interesting article - source


Luck, not merit can beat quota
Team DNA
Saturday, April 08, 2006 22:09 IST

For two days, Rohit Ahuja has been chewing over a question on electromagnetism from IE Irodov’s Problems in General Physics. Rohit, 17, who will take the IIT-JEE next year, is confident that if he cracks 50 per cent of Irodov’s problems, he will make it. What he isn't sure of is that if the number of seats for general candidates goes down by 50 per cent, whether Russian rigour in Physics will be of any help. “Absolutely brilliant guys are going to take this exam. If you lose out on just one mark, you may lose a hundred ranks. If so many seats are taken away, I have to be really lucky to beat those geeks out there,” says a troubled Rohit, who is in class XII in St Mary’s High School, Lucknow.
Increasing the luck factor in IIT-JEE and IIM Common Admission Test is just one fallout of Arjun Singh’s proposal to increase OBC representation in Central institutes. The other bad effects could be negative brand perception, decrease in salaries offered during campus recruitment, and reserved category students not being able to cope with tough curricula.
Says KRS Murthy, former director of IIM Bangalore: “When the whole world is moving towards a merit-oriented system, increasing reservations will affect the image of our premier institutes.”
The quality of education in these institutes will go for a toss, says Amal Dhru, president of the IIM Ahmedabad Alumni Association. “The brand value of IIT and IIM will go down.” Murthy, however, says salaries won't be affected. “When it comes to recruitment, companies don’t go by just institutes. If they find the right candidate, they pay good salaries, no matter if he or she is from IIM, IIT or Harvard.”
Will quota students be able to cope with the academic pressure? No, if one goes by Aditya Kashyap, governing board member of IIM Kolkata. “Even the present quota for SC/ST candidates does not get filled. Not much quality there. And the students who get in have a tough time. The institute runs extra classes for them before the session.”
In their report, Indian Institutes of Technology — An Experience in Excellence, PV Indiresan, former director of IIT Madras, and NC Nigam, former director of IIT Delhi, stated that the IITs are unable to fill about half of the reserved 15 per cent of the seats for SCs and 7.5 per cent for STs.
But there are voices of optimism. Says Prof Anup Sinha, dean, programme initiatives, IIM Kolkata: “Why assume that an OBC student will do badly? Also, not all general category students perform well. The best will continue getting the best jobs.”
Nandini Goswami in Kolkata, K Raghu in Bangalore, Shyam Parekh in Ahmedabad
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