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echarcha
July 10th, 2001, 05:24 PM
The July 2001 Indo-Pak meet over Kashmir: Your opinion?

As the meet unfolds, please contribute your views here.

Please limit your responses to what happens at the summit and your reactions to that.

There are other threads for discussing related but other issues.

Thanks,
Sunit

tantric_yogi
July 10th, 2001, 09:15 PM
Opinion? How and what? we want Pakistan to accept Kashmir as an Indian territory and Pakistan wants India to let go of Kashmir! Where and at what point could they possibly agree on?..If Vajpayee gives any concessions he can say good bye to next elections, General gives away anything then hi might never be able to go back home.

How about opinion of former PM Benazir Bhutto:

"Former Premier Benazir Bhutto has pooh-poohed the Indo-Pak summit saying that Pak President Pervez Musharraf was going for it just to please the international community and in a pessimistic note added that nothing will come out of it.

Bhutto said, "I think that neither will there be any relief on the Kashmir issue nor in the intensity of violence in the troubled territory as a result of the parleys," and claimed that India and Pakistan were meeting "under pressure from a strong international power," whose name she did not disclose.

"The main objective of Musharraf's meeting was to please the international community in order to show that he is making peace efforts to defuse tension between the two nuclear powers over Kashmir," the former Pak PM told the Gulf News from London.

Musharraf was a military dictator who did not have the mandate and represented no one as he did not enjoy the support of the people of Pakistan, Bhutto added.

"Democracy is the main course of our politics in Pakistan. We do want peace in the country and cannot accept a military dictator holding talks which should be held by the democratically elected government with full mandate of the public," said Bhutto, who is now in self-exile in London. She said, "He lacks the moral authority to represent Pakistan at such important occasion."

She pointed out that issues like Iran-India gas pipeline, redeployment in Kargil, nuclear war threat and trade would be discussed at the summit but "there would be hardly any major development on the key issue of Kashmir."

"Neither is Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee going to agree with what Musharraf wants nor is Musharraf willing to listen to what Vajpayee wants him to do - defuse tension in Kashmir," Bhutto said.

Talking about her own government's effort to make peace with India, she said, "When we tried to make peace with India in 1989, Parliament approved our agenda for peace but the General Head Quarters of the Army said it was against national security and the government was sacked."

"Our government was doing everything the generals are doing now but with dignity and honour. The question now in Pakistan is who should decide what constitutes national interest and security, Parliament or the GHQ?" she stated.

Let's keep our fingers crossed...something positive might just come out of this summit...

CumuloNimbus
July 12th, 2001, 05:02 AM
Following column sums up my apprehensions about this summit quite well: Noble mistakes (http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010716/tavleen.shtml)
Killing through kindness comes to mind...
Admittedly this column deals with a broad range of issues but the final point is striking nevertheless:
But the prime minister is a generous man, so generous that we need to perhaps worry about what he will give General Pervez Musharraf as a farewell present. Kashmir?

Netra
July 12th, 2001, 05:28 AM
I don't think that the PM can take a decision as to what can be given away and what can be kept. He needs to put it up before the Parliament.

I am still wondering how Nehru could decide that a plebiscite would be held in Kashmir.

GpeL
July 12th, 2001, 08:47 PM
my two two words..

status quo..

We will be back to square one with nothing achieved. Reason? the military estabilishment of pakistan survives on the kashmir and the animosity towards India. If India and Pak were to shake hands.. the generals will lose all their funding (and importance). Unless a "real" democrazy is set up in pakistan there is little or no chance of any sort of lasting peace. All this is an international eye wash on a grand scale.

I am rightnow not expressing my views.. I met a lot of people here in India and not just general people, think tanks too.. and the opinion is unanimous.

Rest when I come back to the US of A. The connections here are painfully slow (yaa.. I used to use the same band width but of late T1 and Cable modem have spoilt me :p)

IndiaHater
July 12th, 2001, 11:06 PM
Nothing much is expected from the summit.
As long as India remains stubborn over Kashmir and doesn't stop its "atoot ang atoot ang" chorus, nothing's gonna change.
Indians will continue to die like dogs on the streets of kashmir and
dhoti clad babus in delhi will keep on telling the people that "everything is under control and we have all the necessary resources to combat militancy".

videsee
July 12th, 2001, 11:35 PM
This is a site for intelligent discussions. Not the puerile bilge you spout!

Go away and return after your brain transplant surgery. Hope the mouse lives!!!!!:D :smash: ;)

CumuloNimbus
July 13th, 2001, 12:44 AM
IndiaHater (rather one-dimensional name you have ;)),
please stop blaming everything on India, which shows you are not inclined to meaningful discussion. To every dispute there are two parties, so both are involved, both are to blame. India's 'stubbornness as you like to call it is equally reflected in Paks inflexibile and warmongering attitude. I would be delighted to hear you explain how a military dictatorship is more peaceful than a maturing democracy!

Netra
July 13th, 2001, 01:16 AM
Well Indiahater, if you take an average Pakistani, he has Kashmir foremost on his mind, whereas with an average Indian this is not the case. Indians might be stubborn about Kashmir, but Pakistanis are obsessed with it.

Indian
July 13th, 2001, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by IndiaHater
Nothing much is expected from the summit.


Do you think we are stupids to believe that, a solution will come out of this summit ? :D

you pakistani hate monger ..listen whats gonna happen

With this summit

--> Musharraf arrives in agra, goes round taj mahal , eats Biryani and kebabd.
--> During his stay in india Musu says ..kashmir belongs to pakistan.
--> Vajpayee reciprocates saying ..kashmir belongs to India.
--> Finally --------------->No Solutoin<------------------------
--> Mushu takes next flight to pakistan .
--> With this india will show the world that it is a peace loving country and it is this STUPID COUNTRY PAKISTAN which is creating problems in kashmir and not willing to discuss.(world knows about the initiatives on Indian side ..ceasefire,unconditional invitation to pak)
--> USA lifts sanctions over India , while sanctions on pakistan continues.
-->Pakistan will be further alieanated in international politics
-->Indian army in will CRUSH HARD the militants in kashmir.
-->Pakistan's economy continues to detiriorate.
--> Paki Tribals in Sindh , groups in Punjab, MQM, SHia Sunni groups will start fighting for seperate lands.
-->Frustrated mushu and pakistan will attack on kashmir with the help of Let and Hizbul in kashmir.
-->India this time decides to HIT HARD on PAKISTAN ..cracks down on militants and pak army ..drives them away from kashmir as well as Pak occupied kashmir.
-->During this war ..world countries will support India ..because of their earlier stance on kashmir issue.
-->India recaptures whole of kashmir .
-->There will be a fear of Nuclear war ..but sensible Indians will never dare to use Nuclear bombs, while some paki mullahs will advise mushu to use Nuclear bombs ..some wise army people in ISI and pak will not allow that ..because they know that India can nuke whole pakistan in a minute..if pak dares to do that.
--> Pak is chickened out..with this war ..FINALLY !
--> Indian government will ban article 370 of indian constitution.
--> Finally ..Kashmir will be an un seperable part of India.
--> Tourism in kashmir will gain back its momentum ,kashmiri people will start a fresh life ..all again.


PEACE

charo taraf shanti :cool:

videsee
July 13th, 2001, 10:46 AM
This post by Indian Hater. I have met a lot of Indians & Pakis. They are brought up on a diet of hatred for India!!! From childhood they are taught hatred!

We Indians certainly detest them. But do not award them that kind of importance!!!

Had those wars not been fought with India, they too could have developed their country. But a country that was a gross error to begin with never got their act together!

Hamara namak kha ke hamare saath namak haraami karte hain!

India should isolate them completely. Stop all this hypocritical bullshit. In my opinion, they are beyond redemption.:smash:

Ghasiyara
July 13th, 2001, 12:03 PM
Indian....... you didn't complete the cycle.

---> Another coup in pakistan, Mushyrat killed or runs away to London.

---> Another dictator, go to step 1.

echarcha
July 13th, 2001, 12:34 PM
look what eCharchan arun has to say:

http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2354

echarcha
July 16th, 2001, 11:25 AM
Any new news and views on the ongoing summit??

manohar
July 16th, 2001, 06:10 PM
Now that the summit is over, the onus of its failure can be squarely put on India's shoulders. What prompted Ms. Swaraj to omit the mention of Kashmir? Was she trying to create a rift between the president and his people back in Pakistan? These moronic tricks must stop. Especially when the president had shown his ardent desire to bend. He repeatedly stated that he knew Vajpayee's constraints and begged the Indian side to understand his. He went so far as saying "If I don't talk about Kashmir, I can very well buy back Neharwali Haveli and stay here". He spoke so frankly and sincerely. Probably he is the only Pakistani head of state who has not spoken with a forked tongue. Even Advani was impressed by his plain-talk. He is not a diplomat, neither does he pretend to be one. I know it suits us to keep the Kashmir problem unsolved for the time-being, but trying to backstab a guest who had come with lots of hope and a real open-mind will be hard for ordinary Indians to digest.

Netra
July 17th, 2001, 04:52 AM
Manohar, I visited the BR Forum and found that everybody was hailing Sushma Swaraj's statement. Why does your attitude give me the feeling that you wanted ABV to hand out Kashmir to Pakistan on a silver platter?

CumuloNimbus
July 17th, 2001, 05:36 AM
Please let us not jump the gun here apportioning blame on one side. It has been barely 12 hours after the 'no common declaration' statement was made. If it was only India to blame why didn't the Pak. military strongman leave much earlier? Why the second day of negotiations? If he was so flexible why didn't he want the part "stopping incursions into Kashmir" to be put on paper (don't forget the whole world except the Taliban (;)) is accusing him of that). That seemed to me that the Pak position had been hard-line as always. Prove me wrong!

BTW manohar, who is the back-stabber here?!!

viking
July 17th, 2001, 05:52 AM
I agree that if Pervert Bhai Musharraf cannot return to pakistan if he does not talk Kashmir but that is not reason enough for India to sympathise with him if the local Pakistani populace is so obsessed about Kashmir then they should be prepared to lose their balls over it let em come out of their holes and fight us on that....we are not gonna take it anymore!.

The very fact that the arrogant Musharraf who is nothing but a war criminal talks with so much humility is a definate indicator towards things seriously wrong in Pakistan viz a viz their economy!.Drain the suckers dry that should be Indias policy.

Randheer
July 17th, 2001, 06:46 AM
echarchans,
Have Pity on Musaraff,He has to show extra Pakistani because he is a Mujahir

Netra
July 17th, 2001, 06:55 AM
He is an idiot. The moment he came to know that talks were failing, he should have demanded assylum in India.:D :D

manohar
July 17th, 2001, 10:45 AM
I am not against India's insistence on including the phrase 'cross-border terrorism'. It was in fact necessary to ensure the impasse. Neither am I saying Kashmir should be solved immediately, or given to anyone on a platter. I support India's stand of leaving Kashmir as it is for now. But Ms. Swaraj's statement triggered an avalanche of mistrust. It showed the president (already in a tight corner for being a Mohajir) that the Indians were eager to drive a wedge between him and his people. That he stayed even after that and carried out several more interactions shows his faith on Vajpayee and his eagerness to reach a common ground. Musharraf has been repeatedly insulted by us in the past and he has absorbed all that to allow our Kargil wound to heal. Now that it seemed we had gotten over Kargil, the IB minister shows she has not.

Musharraf was supposed to return empty handed; that was inevitable. We could not have given him anything that he could have shown his people in order to reduce the influence of the fundamentalists on their society. But breaching the delicate balance of trust and souring the environ is something we could have done without.

akash
July 20th, 2001, 01:10 AM
I think we Indians have blamed pakistan on kashmir issue.

Right from 1947 we havent played our cards correctly.our leaders havent displayed the kind of passion that we want them to show whern it comes to dealing with pakistan on kashmir issue.

How many of you think that if pakistan wins a war against India and goes on to capture whole of kashmir valley ,It will return us the kashmir valley just as we returned lahore and parts of POK in 1971 war. It will never .we all know that.

I get a feeling that (i might be wrong) most of the indians dont care about kashmir any more.Ask a group of indian and i am sure thet more than half of them wont be able to tell the exact nature of the problem that kashmiris and whole of kashmir faces

Do you guys know that POK has 24 hours electricity supply while in our kashmir there is hardly any power supply .

I understand that pakistan is causing problem and indulging in crossborder terrorism but i believe that we are as much responsible for the plight of kashmiris as the pakistanis.Remember guys that self determination struggle was started by the kashmiris themselves.most of these people were educated .They were doctors,engineers,lawyers .

Initially their fight was against the administrators the local government (just as we feel like fighting against the corrupt leaders).Its only afterwards that foreign mercenaries took over the movement.

My gut feeling is that our leaders are not capable of solving the kashmir peoblem because i feel that very few have analysed the real cause of uprising.They are eversoready to blame pakistan for teh uprising but they are only partially correct.

Its we who are responsible for the present plight of kashmir and we have to find a way.However costly and time consuming it might prove to be.

DesiBaba
July 20th, 2001, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Indian


Do you think we are stupids to believe that, a solution will come out of this summit ? :D

you pakistani hate monger ..listen whats gonna happen

With this summit

--> Musharraf arrives in agra, goes round taj mahal , eats Biryani and kebabd.
--> During his stay in india Musu says ..kashmir belongs to pakistan.
--> Vajpayee reciprocates saying ..kashmir belongs to India.
--> Finally --------------->No Solutoin<------------------------
--> Mushu takes next flight to pakistan .
--> With this india will show the world that it is a peace loving country and it is this STUPID COUNTRY PAKISTAN which is creating problems in kashmir and not willing to discuss.(world knows about the initiatives on Indian side ..ceasefire,unconditional invitation to pak)
--> USA lifts sanctions over India , while sanctions on pakistan continues.
-->Pakistan will be further alieanated in international politics
-->Indian army in will CRUSH HARD the militants in kashmir.
-->Pakistan's economy continues to detiriorate.
--> Paki Tribals in Sindh , groups in Punjab, MQM, SHia Sunni groups will start fighting for seperate lands.
-->Frustrated mushu and pakistan will attack on kashmir with the help of Let and Hizbul in kashmir.
-->India this time decides to HIT HARD on PAKISTAN ..cracks down on militants and pak army ..drives them away from kashmir as well as Pak occupied kashmir.
-->During this war ..world countries will support India ..because of their earlier stance on kashmir issue.
-->India recaptures whole of kashmir .
-->There will be a fear of Nuclear war ..but sensible Indians will never dare to use Nuclear bombs, while some paki mullahs will advise mushu to use Nuclear bombs ..some wise army people in ISI and pak will not allow that ..because they know that India can nuke whole pakistan in a minute..if pak dares to do that.
--> Pak is chickened out..with this war ..FINALLY !
--> Indian government will ban article 370 of indian constitution.
--> Finally ..Kashmir will be an un seperable part of India.
--> Tourism in kashmir will gain back its momentum ,kashmiri people will start a fresh life ..all again.


PEACE

charo taraf shanti :cool:

FANTASTIC!:)
SUPERB!
AWESOME!

tere mouth mein ghee-shakkar mere Indian bhai...God bless u :up: