View Full Version : Crime against Dalits in India.

November 14th, 2000, 03:25 PM
Dear Friends,

These are the Crimes committed on Dalits from April 2000 to October 2000, reported in National Daily's. Hundreds of Such crimes go unreported. If you find any such crimes happening in your neighbourhood, please send the details of such crimes to us. news@ambedkar.org

Please check this page for updates. Meanwhile THINK what YOU can do to stop this madness.


To start of, forward this mail to at least 10 friends of yours.

Let there be equality in this world.


The Real Deal
November 14th, 2000, 09:10 PM
Dear Rakhwala,

Is it something sin to be Dr. Ambedkar Ki aulad. Well what Ambedkar Ki aulad want, good question. Will be able to do naya.

OK these people want you guys make an excuse for the atrocities you have done all over history and share your all money which you made by doing atrocities on these people, keeping them out of everything land, property, business, education.

Oh! that was not a reservation:) was that? Are you willing to give these people such kind of reservation;)
Man just give hundred year of same kind of reservation;) to these people which you followed for centuries:) Are you willing to do this.

You cry like you intelligent people;) suffering due to reservation. What about great Nishad Eklavaya wasn't he intelligent, numerous similar example have never been written. Even after every reservation in ancient time and all over history, you wont be able to match Chandal;) Valmiki(Ramayana) or for that matter Nishad Vayas Ji(Mahabharat).

Get life and do some sole searching that how intelligent you are, how your forefathers have acquired all lands forcefully and have done atrocities until recently and in many villages its still continue.

November 15th, 2000, 06:59 AM
Dear friend,

Reservation is not a Charity given to us. It was deal made with Govt. of India, as "Pune Pact", in place of seperate electorate for Dalit.

If the Pact is broken, we will revive our call for seperate electrorate

I am proud to be Son of Ambedkar.

With metta

[Edited by Dalit on 12-15-2000 at 10:59 AM]

November 15th, 2000, 12:32 PM
Hey guys take it easy...

I like the fact that each one is airing their views openly though I dont necessarily subscribe to nor condone the style and language. Just wanted to let you know that keep it cool and keep it like a charcha... ;)

November 15th, 2000, 12:36 PM
I will be happy if all Dalits go to separate nation. Which on you like? Bihar? UP? What you want?

The Pune act was not charity, but favor towards the balanced development of India. If Dalits are not able to understand, then the charity is useless.

November 15th, 2000, 12:56 PM
Its shocking to hear that people can be so much myopic as to demand for a separate nation. I think they have seen dreams where people have prospered after fulfulling such demands. Dalit, serious and sensible thoughts are required to solve this problem and not your whims.
"Driving out Arayans..." is really prepostorous.

Real Deal, I think for substantiating your point, better not use Eklavya and Muni Vyasa. People like me don't give a damn to mythology/religion.

It sounds so pathetic that my great, great....great grandparents commited some atrocities on your great....great
grandparents so I should be suffering.

As of crimes posted on Ambedakar.org, I don't deny that it won't be happening but there's a necessity to know the source of the news. I saw that links to hindustan times were given in some articles but on following them , I couldn't get anything. Also some of the articles have no valid source mentioned. If you know those people who maintain ambedkar.org please ask them to provide some authenticity of sources.

November 15th, 2000, 01:02 PM
Dear Rakhwala,

Looks like you have a lot of hatred in your heart. Its a not good for you. And by the way, our first effort will be to throw the Aryans out of our Country.

Looks like you have a very low opinion about Dalits, please change it buddy, for every uppercaste so called intelligent person, i can show 10 Dalits that are better then them. But we lack opportunity that's all.

By the way, the reservation was there for just 10 years, its because you guys like you, who have hatred for Dalits, and not implementing the constitution, reservation had to extend for 50 years.

With Metta

November 15th, 2000, 01:06 PM

I would like to add that whatever the issues, we can resolve them by discussions, negotiaions and action. But please dont talk of further dividing India and seprate nations.

Already, thanks to vested political interests, we have Jharkhand and then Uttranchal and then we might have Farkhand, Bumkhand and Shrikhand ;)

I would relly hate to see India falling into pieces and I will really oppose any breakups of our nation. I love India despite all its problems.

Lets keep this nation united and not break it into pieces.

November 15th, 2000, 01:13 PM
Dear Me,

Every single news in the http://www.ambedkar.org is an authentic one. If you are a regular on Internet, you must know that some sites, don't maintain their URLs. HT states sections keep changing every day.

Its just that you don't want to believe that, there is some much crime committed on Dalits even now.

In fact after BJP took over the Nation, the crimes have increased.

My Opinion, is all these crimes will stop, only if we Dalits start ruling India. And it will soon happen.

Until now only Banias and Brahmins where ruling,(20 % of the population) its time the Bahujans( 80%) start ruling.

I seek all the non-Banias & non- Brahmins to unite and start taking the country affairs, before we get sold to US, like the way 300 years back we got sold to British by Banias and Brahmins

With metta

November 15th, 2000, 01:17 PM
hey Dalit,

Seems that you have defined term 'Aryan' . I am a ignorant, dumb student who didn't know about its upper caste lineage until the result of 12th standad. Believe me that reservation has not affected me at all, if one door closes I look for other. so if you want India for yourself, tell me beforehand I'll knock doors of other countries.

My humble request to you "Please define 'Aryans'" I have to fight if its just your whim.

I see that you have been using terms like 'we' , 'lacking oppurtunity'.... I see that you are based in US as sw engg,
So did that opportunity just came out of blue? ARe you the one maintaining Ambedkar.org?

November 15th, 2000, 01:30 PM
Please read the book


I have taken some excerpts from the same. This may prove my point.

Indus Valley civilization was not of Aryans

The present Brahmanic scholarship is bent on proving that Aryans are the original residents of India and that there was no "Aryan Invasion". They try to prove that Aryans were a civilized people and were the builders and not the destroyers of Harrapan Civilization. What is the reason, that they wish to somehow prove this? To us, it appears that, since Mahatma Jotirao Phule criticized the "Arya Bhats" for the atrocious behaviours of these people towards "shudras and ati-shudras", in this "Land of Bali" - Bali Sthan -, and organized the masses against the Aryabhats, the latter felt that they will loose the supremacy, which they had achieved and very jealously guarded. So it became eminent for them, they prove that they are not aliens, they belong to the soil, and that Aryan Invasion is just a myth. Voluminous literature is being created by them and every method is being used to promote through the media, print as well as electronic, to put forward their view. Not withstanding all this, it was the Naagas who were the original residents of this land and Aryans were the invaders. That is the verdict of the history.

November 15th, 2000, 02:34 PM
Dear Dalit,

I am posting the material from my previous post on the so called Aryan Invasion to India.

It was pure crime to the humanity from the Europen Historians who were not prepared to belive that there can be most civilized society possible. They not only depressed the hinduism and Indian culture but also devided the hindus of India as Aryans and Dravids. Later on the same thing used as a political tool to prove European's entry to India correct by comparing it with Aryan's (so called) entry.

Unfortunately most of the Indians believed whatever the Max Muller and team wrote, including great Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. Our real great leaders like Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Gopal Krishna Gokhle, Swami Vivekanad opposed this, but not one was there to listen.

(Can we believe that the Europens will accept their history written by any Indian?)

Now fortunately, there are some nutral (or with other interests) Historians (mostly from the US) started questing this, and their quotes are really interesting.

There is a certain amount of controversy surrounding the exact history of the Veda, the most ancient of Hindu scripture, which was first translated into European languages in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. At this time, it was the contention of the expanding scientific, philosophical and religious doctrines of western European culture, that these writings simply could not be more ancient than the classical roots of European civilisation. Whereas this hypothesis was strongly held by the expanding western educational regime, in recent times there has been cause to re-examine its claims.

The Aryan Invasion and Racial theories, and Aryan-Dravidian conflicts are a 19th century fabrication by some European scholar. They are being exploited even now for political reasons.

The hymns of Rigveda had been composed and completed by 3700BC, this can be scientifically proved.

The language of the Indus script is related to Sanskrit, the language of Vedas.

The Indus valley civilization should be aptly called as Saraswati Vedic civilization, as the new evidences and right interpretation of the archaeological findings indicate.

There is now strong evidence that the movement of the ancient Aryan people was from east to west, and this is how the European languages have strong association and origin in the Vedic Sanskrit language.

The ending of Indus Valley and the Saraswati civilization was due to the constant floods and drought in the Indus area and the drying up of the Saraswati river. This had caused a massive emigration of the habitants to safer and interior areas of the Indian subcontinent and even towards the west.

There was no destruction of the civilization in the Indus valley due to any invasion of any barbaric hordes.
The Vedic literature has no mention of any invasion or destruction of a civilization.

There is no evidence in any of the literature which indicate any Aryan-Dravidian or North-South divide, they were never culturally hostile to each other.

The population living in the Indus valley and surrounding the dried up Saraswati river practiced the Vedic culture and religion.

November 15th, 2000, 06:32 PM
As a South Indian Tamil Iyer, I can certify that the biggest discrimination in India today is in Tamil Nadu, where Brahmins are discriminated against. Everywhere you go, (and my complexion is on the fair side, so it is a dead giveaway) you are discriminated against. In stores, even in megastores, you have to stand unattended and it is done on purpose.

I would call on Mr. Dalit to also comment on this *factually* while talking of the killing of Dalits.

Besides discrimination, TN has the dubious distinction of having reservation (around 85%) for the 90% of the populace.
Do 90 % of the people need reservation to compete ?? If so, it is a sad state of affairs

And talking of oppression, it is true that in the recent past lower castes were discriminated against, in fact severely, but talks of revenge and of a seperate nation is like hanging someone for his grandfather's crime. As far as the last two generations were concerned, there has been reservation (of course, it is misused; i know a OBC whose
parents are a doctor and a high-ranking bank officer, who, despite rich, still use the reserved quota), but there have been efforts to provide equal opportunity since independence.

People using the reserved category should strive to make the grade without reservation, only then can they really make progress. Reservations just boost your ego but in reality it does not make the community stronger. As it is said, respect cannot be demanded, but earned.

I think they are aware of the fact. That is why anyone who is from reserved category in any college feels ashamed of admitting it (to someone of not reserved category).

People who have come through on their own steam, on the other hand, have more self-respect. It took magnanimity to offer reservation, not compulsion.

You guys (Dalits etc) can critize me, causterize my post but it does not make a difference, for I have come through on my own and I am proud of myself !!

I wonder how many of you can say that....you may be proud to be sons of Ambedkar who gave you 'reservation' but you cannot be proud of yourself unless you can succeed without the 'crutch' of 'reservation.'

[Edited by TheMan on 11-15-2000 at 08:40 PM]

November 16th, 2000, 07:44 AM
Dear Friends,

My intention of putting up the http://www.ambedkar.org/crime.htm was to educate people about the problems in India.

If people choose to ignore it, I feel very sorry. But I am not going to stop here, I will fight until all my(Indians) people are treated equal.

From the discussion I had till now on this forum, I have just reaffirm that, uppercaste still have hatred towards Dalits. First it was because of their birth and now its because dalits becoming equals due reservation.

Whatever it is, we have a problem on hand. If any one has a constructive idea towards this, then please air your opinion. I will be glad to discuss.

I apologize, if I have hurt anyone sentiment. I was a bot over reactive in my comments. As a Buddhist, I should have behaved as one.

Lets us see to that we remove this social evil from our society. and have country that free from hatred.

I wish you all well,

May you all be happy.

With Metta

November 16th, 2000, 08:17 AM
Mr Dalit
Why are you backing off ?? Can't you reply when you are
asked to comment on things *factually* ?? After all, your
site is a *fact* site.

So please air your views on my previous post (just before your latest one) and tell us what you think of the discrimination and hatred by reservation-holding 90% of the populate in TN against 2% of brahmins !!

I also offered a simple solution, 'hard work'. If Dr. Ambedkar could do it, you, as sons of Dr. Ambedkar should be able to work hard too. Is working hard to qualify for exams and having economic reservation too much to ask ???

And saying "may you live in peace" and going back to your closed hate-filled world will not solve the problem. The problem is out here and has to be addressed !!

So, please come back and answer all our questions !! If you believe in yourself and are proud be a son of Ambedkar and if you have self-respect, you should !!

November 16th, 2000, 12:58 PM

Dalit Sahab, shayad aab firse reservation leke aapke jawab dene ke liye aayenge.

When he has not stood on his own foot, still using the name of great Amberkar badly, how can he answer the questions?

Forget him, forgive him.

Kshama virasya bhushanam!

November 16th, 2000, 06:37 PM
I did not know that Ambedkar was a buddhist. But being a budhhist and asking for reservation is unheard of. Even the true buddhists, people from tibet, who live in exile in India, and have reached here after hardships, do not ask for special treatment.

The Real Deal
November 16th, 2000, 08:04 PM
The Man : Besides discrimination, TN has the dubious distinction of having reservation (around 85%) for the 90% of the populace. Do 90 % of the people need reservation to compete ?? If so, it is a sad state of affairs

-That is why Tamil Nadu is now more prosperous than other northern part of India. All people need equal opportunities. Why this reservation. Well give free education to these people to whom you have oppressed all history until recently and still continue. If hundred people have money backup and their hundred children are going to school, paying money for different coaching, books etc. also getting benefit of their educated parents AND other hundred having no money, no environment of education, can not join highly demanding schools. And even after that if they are able to manage five out of hundred get educated, then its much better than your 50 out of hundred.

-Not all of you manage to get greatly, if your brother doing goonda gardi, he is already have his carrier reserved or you can easily put your son in business all money you have by making people fool. AND how your great great great parents(me) got these money and how your parents are rich and other poor. The divide made by making people fool and doing atrocities and now talking that these are history and you do not want to return favor is your pathetic attitude which is part of your forefathers legacy.

-Compare yourself with equally prosperous(money and education both) 100 backwards son, you will find your place easily. It is opportunities which is limited to these people not that you are intelligent. An intelligent peoples son can be fool and fools son can be intelligent. Binding them by cast and stopping their progress by a nexus played by Brahman. In Hindu society Brahman are greatest sin and they made themselves so safe by writing and teaching others god knows, what all that.

-If they are poor, everyone have to give them DAN, Oh my god greatest beggar, begged everything from different King then slowly started acquiring land by taking DAN then setting themselves King then what all... If one gets succeeds as Eklavaya, all get together and destroy them, by whatever means. This sin is far cruel than anywhere in this world whether that was Naji Hitler or American Slavery.

-Dear Dalit, Its our nation, their is no need for separate nation, just their time is over now and we need to throw
them out following their ancient legacy which is still continued, Hence I can be agree with your view and I also invite all friend of 80% population come together and be together, that could be the only best solutions.

-Keeping their mind and attitude and now BJP/RSS nexus trying to teach us what BRAHMAN have teaches other in past by every means. These are socalled intelligent people could not save our nation from slavery, infect their coverdice have thrown it to slavery, they are covered people, when some big blow come you will find them sitting and doing pooja instead fight. They are foolish people. To acquire everything they made rules for themselves only and to fight (because covered can not fight), to do all hard worked business (because they are really 'kamchor') so that they can get feed, their have to be other people to serve them, how selfish their legacy is.

-Their legacy, which is followed by BJP and they do not want to say that its wrong. How Bajpayee basterd can be great if he follows a legacy and never says its wrong which discriminate people.

-Well I did not intend to write such harsh word but some Rakhwala of their legacy want this language.

-Anyway, Manu Bastered was not anyway great at all,he was just super bastered:)

[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-16-2000 at 10:50 PM]

November 16th, 2000, 09:30 PM
Most pathetic discussion I have ever seen. Just a humble suggestion from my side :

Rakhwala, I don't think you know what you are saying. I may not be an authority on issues but Buddha was far above your level. Don't try to use abusive words.

Discussion on religion has taken place before where Vedas have been doubted. Better search for that thread and go through it once.

Furhter it seems that all those against reservations and people like Dalit, Real deal .. , don't like caste system.
Great, why don't we make our goverment or next goverment pass a bill where there's no caste system in Hindu religion.
And obviousily with the consent of so called authorities on Hindu religion.

Na rahega baans, na bajegi bansoori.

The Real Deal
November 16th, 2000, 10:32 PM
That would be the best solution. Then legacy of reservation needs to be changed. I personally will support and I'm sure their are lot people out their of my opinion.

But it needs to be strict, like it should have some provision to punish people if they show any hegemony by showing their cast. Or following marriage by openly declaring same cast (without declaration it will continue but to declare it at least their will be a fear) advertisement etc. any many more similar provision. Its done here, lift the reservation their, a new system instead be deployed free education and training to poor people.

November 17th, 2000, 11:37 AM
This thread really has taken a life of its own.

Okay, I will just add one thing - in India we have caste system, in USA and other western parts of the world there is racial discrimination, in Pakistan there is the Shia and Sunni and Mohajeer.

Basically, I feel that man cannot live without these things like caste, race, religion. These things were created a long time ago in every part of the world and have been imbibed into each one of us since time immemorial. It is very very difficult to ask people to give up theri faith and religion. But one can definitely strive for realistic things like awareness about others and acceptance of the differences in society while still keeping one's own religion and faith.

Just by passing a law to abolish castes in Hindu religion will not work as people need to accept it. Here too (in USA), there are laws against racial discrimination but as recent as yesterday Coca Cola had to settle for about 150 milion dollars and more in racial discrimination lawsuits filed as a class action lawsuit by its African American employees.

Basically, how you and me can accept each other as we are and learn to live with our differences will make the changes happen. Just by making laws, it not going to happen. Just taking away concept of caste and religion will not happen. Dowry is a crime as per Indian Penal Code, but still there are dowry victims, right?

What I am seeing in this thread is blind fanaticism towards one's own caste or creed and blind hatred for others - all at the same time.

Both sides - in this case upper caste Hindus and Dalits - need to understand and bring about enough self-awareness to resolve these issues. History should not be always the harping point. Lets see how we can create a new future and not get into minute details of yesterday. Else, there will always be a feeling that just because I am of a upper caste so I missed my college seat or just becasue I am of a lower caste I did not get the job.

[Edited by echarcha on 11-17-2000 at 01:39 PM]

November 19th, 2000, 12:08 AM
I have been following this discussion for quite a while and could not resist when people have started showing little bit of inclination towards what we can do about it, now that we have this legacy.

Somebody suggested that you need to be proud of whatever caste you are from. Let me answer that. American says I am proud to be american, indian says I am proud to be indian, and I am proud to be muslim, I am proud to be hindu, I am proud to be gujrati, and I am proud to be freakin idiot. Even pschyos are proud in their freakin world. All we are trying to prove each other by priding is that I am freaking better then you. What the hell is that? Can't we just for a moment accept that everybody is good enough? There is nothing good acheived if we divide ourselves and pride upon that !!

I believe it is inherent to the human nature to identify oneself with a class, religion, race, region, country and sometimes same town. We can see for example that you would probably more often greet an indian as compared to non-indian in US. Or if you are working in indian firm, you are more likely to have friend from same reigion or city. I have seen sometimes all marathi gang and all gujrati gang and all south indian gang, and an IIT gang and a bombay gang.

It probably started when civilization needed to survive based on each other's helping hand. Very few people and few culture has come out of this social bonding to become individualistic. You cannot achieve this state untill you think you are inferior and you need some help hand, be it just a friend from same region, religion, class, town, etc. Quoting from my one of my friends pschyology studies, most of the people still have inferiority complex, one or of another kind, which leads to this kind of identity crisis where one needs to identify with some group. This might be therapeutic only to a certain extent, but in the long run does nothing then dividing people.

We can talk about changing attitude of the society, but unless we try to change ourselves it is going to be bit difficult.

India is a classic example of this division, and probably that's why britishers just wanted to continue this divide and rule.

As far as reservations are concerned, I believe that genuine effort needs to be made for the upliftment of lower caste people to get rid of this caste devil. Just making some laws and shouting about it is not going to make any bit of difference. Also let it be very clear that current political situations will never allow to do that.

If you remove reservations without these geniune efforts the division and anymosity will continue. If you keep it then also it will continue. Let's except that the fact there are some examples of attrocity based on caste. I have seen with my eyes as you have seen nothing with yours. We can argue about that some other times though !

The fallout of this situation is the widening economic difference between the wealthy and the poor. After the 91 economy policy shift, this gap is expanding. I don't believe in communist attitude, but strongly believe that it is not healthy economic sign. This can continue only for some time, may be 10, 20, 30 years, but then it can only lead to serious disasters like civil uprest in the long run. History has ample evidence of this. If you look at any civil war more often this is the case. Even in recent past indians got kicked out of many african countries only because of this huge economic gaps. Tamils had problems in sri lanka. Fortunately becuase of divisions in india, it can hold may be little longer but cannot hold indefinetly. We need to except this fact and make efforts to reduce this gaps, because it is not good for anybody. Why do americans have affirmative actions (more or less like our reservations)? It is because they have started realizing the fact that if whole society does not grow up then there will be many more thugs, who generally come from poor mass.

I don't believe economic reservations would help to much extent, because the attitude of the people does not change.

Lower caste is not going throw out reservations without any serious efforts to bridge this gap. We can all shout about it but it ain't gonna happen, guys. So unless somebody comes up with better suggestion, lets not just say get rid of reservations. We need to propose better alternatives. And given the political scenerio, it better be good.

Till now only Ambedkar tried to do something about it, because he himself came from that class, might not be right might be the best he could do, but I have yet to see any other indian leader do anything about it. Lower caste people believe in him, cause he identified himself with the pains that the lower caste used to face then. And I believe he proposed it only for some fixed period not indefinetly, believing that the caste evil would have then vanished. It is our problems that we could not get out of it. So lets not give any gaalis to anybody, because as much it is democratic, it is uncivilized also.

November 19th, 2000, 04:04 AM
[/quote]19. I renounce Hinduism which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion. [quote]

The Buddha , did not ask Buddists to say all this crap . Buddhists that i know in India are peace loving people , who just mind their own business . Most dalits convert to another religion , to get out of the caste system which affects their live sas a Hindu . If even after becoming a Buddhist , he chooses to belive in all this Crap , I feel sorry for him ..

Dalit ,I dont deny that there is no opression against Dalits in India . caste wars are still Rampant in the north , there is a lot of caste based politics in the south . Lower castes are looked down upon , and there is a growing resentment against Dalits among the various high castes .
Putting up a website , and advertsing your woes to the world is not going to help you . Reservations were introduced only for a period of 10 years .. Its only licking up to the dalits that has caused it to be extended for so long !

I dont blame the others , for their views on Dalits and reservation . Why should a Meritorious student lose out on good education , to somebody else who gets in purely on the basis of his or her caste ???

Mr. Dalit , end of the day I care 2 hoots if my country is ruled by a Dalit or a Brahmin or a muslim or a Xian , as long as that person is doing his job to run this country properly .dalits who look up to Laloo , mayavati , and BSP leaders as their sole hope are barking up the wrong tree . They are in politics strictly for the money . They dont care a damn if a 12 year orl dalit girl gets raped , by another dalit . they would on sensationalise the issue by saying that she was raped by a Brahmin . It serves ther purpose of existence . They get more votes , and they get dalit support , in their politics of hatred .

I'm sure if u are smart enough to put up a wesite to air your greviances, and to to log on to a discussion forum
, then you cant be that dumb a person as to understand that reservations and Hatred against other castes, does not make any sense in this day and age !!


The Real Deal
November 19th, 2000, 11:49 AM
Yeh! now you want that people should stop saying about your glorious legacy. Its little modern time when lot of people have already come forward otherwise the case would have been different. The fate of people raising voice wouldn't be much different the fate of RIGHT THUMB of eklavya :)

November 20th, 2000, 07:27 AM
Kancha Ilaiah

Kancha Ilaiah teaches politics at the Government Women’s College, Koti, Hyderabad. Active in the Dalit-Bahujan [Scheduled and Backward Caste] movement, he is a prolific writer in both Telugu and English. His latest book, Why I Am Not A Hindu, a critique of Hindutva from a Dalit-Bahujan perspective, turned out to be a best seller. Here he talks to Yoginder Sikand about how ‘Dalitisation’ alone can effectively challenge the threat of Brahminical fascism parading in the garb of Hindutva.

Q: Tell us something about your background. How did you come to be involved in the Dalit-Bahujan struggle?

A: I was born in a village in a forest area in the Warangal district of Andhra Pradesh. The entire area had been given by the Nizam of Hyderabad to Mahbub Reddy, a local landlord, as his fief. My family belongs to the sheep-grazing Kuruma Golla caste. They had earlier migrated from Warangal proper to the forest belt. My grandmother had settled the village. After her death my mother took over the leadership of the caste. I was born three years after the Police Action in 1948. The communists were then very active in our area. In the course of the Telengana armed struggle they killed two people in our village—both were village Patels. Because of the struggle, Mahbub Reddy began selling his lands off, and our caste people, who, till then owned no land at all, began buying small plots. So this was a time when the feudal system had begun disintegrating. Later, at school I came into contact with Marxists, with Marxist literature, and became involved in the students’ movement, and that is how I got involved in the struggle for justice.

Q: What or who has been the major influence on your thinking and your politics?

A: The most important influence on my life was the village in which I was born. As a child in the village I learnt how to breed sheep, till the land and make ropes, but what was particularly instructive was the interactions and contradictions between the different castes within the village—Kurumas, Kapus, Gowdas and Madigas. And it is this personal knowledge of the dynamics of caste that is central to my thinking and all my writings.

My mother exercised a seminal influence on my thinking, too. She was a strong woman and the leader of our caste. You see, among the Dalit-Bahujans, women have an important role within the family and the caste. They set the moral norms themselves, through interaction with the productive process and in the process of struggle with nature, unlike among the Hindus [Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Banias], where women do not work in the fields, and whose norms are dictated by an external agency—the Brahminical texts. My mother was in the forefront of the struggle against the forest guards who would constantly harrass the Kurumas and not allow them to graze their animals in the forest. In fact, she died in one of these confrontations, being fatally beaten up by a policeman while protesting against their brutality. She was then only 46 years old.

I’ve written a Telugu piece about my mother. It’s called The Mother’s Efforts And Her Struggle. There I have tried to show that it is not simply the big ‘political’ struggles against the state which alone are important. Rather, one should look at everyday struggles as well—in this case, a mother’s constant struggle to educate her children, challenging patriarchy, struggling with nature in the productive process, sustaining the culture of the caste. Most Marxist texts look only at grand ‘political’ struggles, party mode of struggles, struggles led by men. In my writings I have sought to also focus on micro struggles, the stories of ordinary people, including women.

Q:How would you characterise contemporary Hindutva? What is the relationship between Hindutva and the Dalit-Bahujans?

A: As Dr.Ambedkar says, Hindutva is nothing but Brahminism. And whether you call it Hindutva or Arya Dharma or Sanatana Dharma or Hindusim, Brahminism has no organic link with Dalit-Bahujan life, world-views, rituals and even politics. To give you just one example, in my childhood many of us had not even heard of the Hindu gods, and it was only when we went to school that we learnt about Ram and Vishnu for the very first time. We had our own goddesses, such as Pochamma and Elamma, and our own caste god, Virappa. They and their festivals played a central role in our lives, not the Hindu gods. At the festivals of our deities, we would sing and dance--men, women and all-- and would sacrifice animals and drink liquor, all of which the Hindus consider ‘polluting’.

Our relations with our deities were transactional and they were rooted in the production process. For instance, our goddess Kattamma Maisa. Her responsibility is to fill the tanks with water. If she does it well, a large number of animals are sacrificed to her. If in one year the tanks dry up, she gets no animals. You see, between her and her Dalit-Bahujan devotees there is this production relation which is central. Likewise, in the case of Virappa, the caste deity of the Kuruma shepherds. His task is to ensure the well-being of the animals. If the flock increases he is offered many sheep as a sacrifice, but if a disease strikes the flock, he gets nothing. Our gods, like us, are productive beings. This is not the case with the Brahminical deities, who have nothing to do with the productive process, but are frozen in the scriptural texts as an external agency. So you can see how the Dalit-Bahujan religion and Brahminism are two distinct and mutually opposed religio-cultural formations, two completely different religions.

In fact, many Dalit communities preserve traditions of the Hindu gods being their enemies. In Andhra, the Madigas enact a drama which sometimes goes on for five days. This drama revolves around Jambavanta, the Madiga hero, and Brahma, the representative of the Brahmins. The two meet and have a long dialogue. The central argument in this dialogue is about the creation of humankind. Brahma claims superiority for the Brahmins over everybody else, but Jambavanta says, ‘No, you are our enemy’. Brahma then says that he created the Brahmins from his mouth, the Kshatriyas from his hands, the Vaishyas from his thighs, the Shudras from his feet to be slaves for the Brahmins, and of course the Dalits, who fall out of the caste system, have no place here. This is the Vedic story. But Jambavanta says that this is nonsense. He says that prakriti [nature] created him and Shakti [the female power principle], and through his union with Shakti, the trimurti [Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva] were born. And then he goes on to say that although Brahma was born as his own offspring, he has not been faithful to his way of life, and that is why the Madigas have kept the Brahmins away from them. Here he talks about the superiority of the Madiga way of life over the Brahminical--of beef-eating over vegetarianism, of manual labour, working with leather and making shoes, as opposed to a parasitic life of living off the labour of others. And then Brahma is defeated, because he has no answer to give Jambavanta.

Q: And then what happens to Brahma?

A: That is most interesting. You see, Jambavanta defeats him by argument, not by killing him. In the Dalit-Bahujan tradition there is no defeat by killing your enemy, which is so central to Brahminism, be it the Gita or the Puranas. This Dalit-Bahujan tradition of overcoming your enemy through logical persuasion runs right from the Buddha to Ambedkar. The understanding is that you must establish your philosophical superiority and defeat the enemy on the moral ground.

Q: What you are perhaps suggesting is that Dalit-Bahujan religion can be used to effectively counter the politics of Brahminism or Hindutva. But Brahminism has this knack of co-opting all revolt against it, by absorbing it within the system.

A: It is true that although Dalit-Bahujan religious formations historically operated autonomously from Hindu forms, they have never been centralised or codified. Their local gods and goddesses have not been projected into universality, nor has their religion been given an all-India name. This is because these local deities and religious forms were organically linked to local communities, and were linked to local productive processes, such as the case of Virappa and Katamma Maisa whom I talked about earlier. But Brahminism has consistently sought to subvert these religious forms by injecting notions of ‘purity’ and ‘pollution’, hierarchy and untouchability even among the Dalit-Bahujans themselves, while at the same time discounting our religious traditions by condemning them as ‘polluting’ or by Brahminising them.

Q: Then would you say that religious conversion to a major codified religion could be the way out of the dilemma, as Ambedkar thought?

A: Historically, it was in the struggle of the Dalit-Bahujans against the Hindu order, the Brahminical system which had captured the state and used it as an instrument to impose the caste ideology, that Dalit-Bahujans converted in large numbers to Buddhism, Sikhism,Islam and Christianity. These were social protest movements to gain social rights and self-respect. The whole Buddhist phenomenon in our early history was a story of Dalit-Bahujan protest. The Buddha says, ‘Just as various different streams flow into a river and become one, so, too, the different castes, when they come into the sangha [ the community of the Buddhist faithful], they join the sea of colourless water’. This stress on social equality is, of course, in marked contrast with Hinduism, which cannot be defined in terms of a universal religion with a universal social rights’ concept. It is simply another name for oppression. I have serious problems with Brahmin writers who say Hinduism is ‘a way of life’. As I understand it, it is nothing but a means for exploitation of the Dalit-Bahujans.

To get back to the point I was making, conversion to Islam and Christianity was for many Dalit-Bahujans a means for social liberation. In the medieval period, conversion to Islam afforded some Dalit-Bahujans a means to enter political structures for the first time. In fact, the whole Shudra emergence dates back to this period. Akbar instituted what could be called a ‘reservation policy’ for Shudras in landlholdings—groups such as Jats in north India or Reddys in Andhra. You do not see Shudras as major landowners in the pre-Akbarian period. In the entire period of Hindu rule, you have the agraharam sort of landholding system, with Hindu kings donating vast tracts of lands to the Brahmins.

In the colonial period, of course there was massive economic plunder, but the Christian missionaries did a lot for the Dalit-Bahujans—education, some amount of economic and social mobility. Many Backward Castes which did not convert to Islam or, later, Christianity, are suffering today, the reason being that there is no educated elite among them.

Q: But, then, does conversion have any relevance today?

A: My own feeling is that if the Dalit-Bahujan movement proves unable to propel the Dalit-Bahujans to state power and to place them in politically hegemonic spaces, educated Dalit-Bahujans will increasingly look to religious conversion as a major alternative as a means of mobilisation and protest.

Q: How do you see the demonisation of Muslims and Christians in Hindutva propaganda?

A: It is obvious that the real threat that Brahminism faces is not from the Muslims or Christians but from the growing awakening of the Dalit-Bahujans, who now refuse to accept Brahminical supremacy. And that is why Dalit-Bahujan wrath is being craftily sought to be displaced from their real oppressors onto imaginary enemies in the form of Muslims and Christians.

Q: There’s been much talk about Dalit-Bahujan-Muslim unity. What are your own views about this?

A: It is important to remember that Dalit-Bahujans and Muslims, particularly indigenous converts who form the vast majority of the Muslim population, share much in common in terms of culture. Both belong, in contrast to the Hindus, to a meat-eating culture, and in a society where what you eat determines, in a very major way, your social status, this is crucial. Then, Islam champions social equality, and there is a total absence of the feeling of untouchability. Take a very simple thing—the Hindu namaste, folding your hands to greet someone—is a very powerful symbolic statement. It suggests that I recognise you but you should not touch me. In contrast, the custom that the Christians introduced of shaking of hands is a touching relationship, while the Muslims go even further and physically embrace you. Even today in the villages the Muslims are the only people who actually physically embrace the Dalit-Bahujans. Of course, the Brahmins and Banias don’t let them do that to them, but that’s a different matter. You must remember that the human embrace is itself a very liberating symbolic act for the Dalit-Bahujan victims of Brahminism.

There’s a lot else that Dalit-Bahujans share with Muslims. Scores of Dalit-Bahujans continue to participate in the Muharram rituals and visit Sufi dargahs. Further, in the productive process the bulk of the Muslims find themselves in the same position as most Dalit-Bahujans, as peasants, agricultural labourers, as cobblers, weavers and so on, and in that capacity they share a common culture.

Q: But can mere cultural similarity or commonality serve as a platform for a wider political unity between Dalit-Bahujans and Muslims?

A: My point is that we urgently need to explore and expand these spaces of cultural unity, and only on that basis can political unity come about. Brahminism or Hindutva or call it what you like, seeks to deny this unity, and plays up only on the differences. We, on the other hand, must focus on the elements of unity, and try to expand these sites of unified life into the political domain. Because of our faulty western Marxist methodological training, we start from political unity, straight away trying to unite Dalit-Bahujans and Muslims on the political plane, without an appropriate cultural back-up. And then when attempts at political unity fail, you give up. I feel that this is not the way of doing the job. You must start by exploring existing sites of cultural unity as well as what could be called productive unity, unity that follows from Muslims and Dalit-Bahujans being placed in similar or common niches in the broader productive process. Build up this consciousness of social and cultural unity and then a lasting political unity will easily come about.

Q: What role do you see Dalit-Bahujan spiritualities as playing in all of this?

A: Let me begin by saying that Brahminism is more afraid of the Dalit-Bahujan thought process than of political challenge. It can manipulate or even kill off any number of Eklavyas or Shabukas, but it cannot face the challenge of Ambedkarite thought. They may conspire to kill me off, but they can’t do a thing with my book [Why I Am Not A Hindu]. And it is in this realm of the cultural that Dalit-Bahujan organic intellectuals have a lot to do. We need to retrieve and revive our own histories, traditions, cultures, religions and knowledge systems, all of which are organically connected, in contrast to the Brahminical, with the productive economic process, with the dignity of labour.

Q: But here you seem to be assuming that Dalit-Bahujan traditions have remained static. Is it not the case that they, too, have fallen victim to the process of Brahminical co-optation?

A: I think the process operates both ways, and there is a major way in which Hindu structures themselves are getting Dalitised, which has not been written about. Take, for instance, the Ganapati festival. Earlier the festival was centred around the Brahmin priest, but now most of those who participate in the festival are probably Dalit-Bahujans. And no longer is the festival Brahminical in the classical sense. With the Dalitisation of the festival has come dancing, drinking and singing and loud filmi music! To take another example, some Dalit-Bahujans are demanding that prayers be said in the temples not in Sanskrit but in the languages of the people themselves and that they, too, should be allowed to become priests. Whatever one might otherwise say about this, this is a means to challenge Brahnminism from within its own structures, a process of Dalitisation whose ultimate culmination can only be the destruction of Brahminism.

Q: Do you see what you call the Dalitisation process operating in other spheres as well?

A: This is evident everywhere—the fact that a Brahmin doctor is willing to treat a Dalit patient is a reflection of this process, as is the willingness of a Brahmin woman to divorce her husband or smoke and drink in public or a Brahmin widow going in for another marriage. You must remember that smoking and drinking , divorce and remarriage have never been problems for Dalit-Bahujan women, in contrast to Brahmin women, so all this is nothing but Dalitisation in action. M.N.Srinivas and other Brahmin sociologists wanted to bolster Brahminical hegemony by claiming that India is getting Sanskritised. But when we asked them what is all this surge in drinking and smoking and women’s emancipation all about, they said it was Westernisation, when actually it is nothing but Dalitisation. Of course, they do not want to admit that because that will mean recognising that it is from the Dalit-Bahujans that others are learning.

My point is very simple. If you go on saying that India is getting Dalitised, Brahminism will die a natural death, but if you keep harping on the theme of India getting Hinduised Brahminism will gain added strength. So many books were written in the wake of the Babri Masjid affair selling the argument that India is getting Hinduised. But where were all these historians and sociologists when ten lakh Dalits converted to Buddhism in 1956 along with Dr. Ambedkar? Did they then say that India was getting Dalitised or Buddhistised? Had they done so we would have had a very different history today. So, I say, write history from the point of view of the Dalits, showing how while Sanskrisation and Brahminism are historically unproductive, a burden on the system and a legitimation for exploitation, Dalitisation, in contrast, is historically a productive, creative and constructive process because it is rooted in the dignity of labour.

Q: How would you envisage this project of writing Indian history from the point of view of Dalit-Bahujans as subjects, as the central actors?

A: To be honest, I am seriously opposed to the writing of what is called the ‘history of sorrow’—simply narrating all the oppression and sufferings that the Dalit-Bahujans have had to suffer under Brahminism, although that, too, cannot be ignored. But I feel that the more you cry, the more the enemy beats you. If you want to defeat the enemy, you cannot remain contented with merely critiquing him, because even in that case he is the one who sets the terms of discourse and you are playing the game according to the rules that he devises, so naturally it is he and not you who wins in the end. Thus, rather than dwell simply on our historical oppression or the dangers of Hindu fascism, keep the focus on the process of Dalitisation, and thereby set the terms of discourse and debate yourself. For that you have to present a Dalit-Bahujan alternative as a workable and better solution. If you don’t do so, and restrict yourself to simply criticisng Brahminism by quoting slokas from one Brahminical text or the other, they will put forward yet another sloka to disprove you. But if you write from the Dalit point of view they have no way to rebut what you want to say.

Central to that task would be re-writing Dalit-Bahujan history to show, for instance, their knowledge systems, their role in the productive process, their great contributions to the development of technology or in the realm of spirituality or how their societies afford women a much higher status than the Brahminic. Sati and dowry have historically been specifically Hindu problems never ours. So history re-writing will have to be informed with Dalit pride. You have to show that Dalitisation, and not Hinduisation, is the answer to our ills, because unlike Brahminism, which is rooted in texts that do not spring from real-world experience in the productive process, Dalitisation reflects the interaction of human beings with nature in the labour process.

Unless you present Dalitisation as a superior alternative, you can’t win the battle. Take the Buddha, for instance. His greatest contribution was not his critique of Brahminism, important though that was, but his founding of the egalitarian community of the faithful—the sangha—as a superior alternative to Brahminical caste society. Or take Marx for that matter. To my mind, his greatness lies not so much in his critique of capitalism but in his presenting a superior alternative in the form of a communist society.

Q: Have you attempted anything of this sort yourself?

A: I think you can see this in most of my writings. To give but one example, I wrote this piece on the leather-working Madigas titled ‘The Subaltern Scientists’ and another piece on the Madiga Dalits called ‘The Productive Soldiers’. Presently, I am working on a book dealing with the discoveries and inventions of certain Dalit-Bahujan tribes and castes. There’s so much to be done to recover Dalit-Bahujan knowledge systems. I mean, for instance, you would have to trace industrialisation in India not to Lancashire but to the Madiga wadas [localities], where the Madigas first perfected the art of turning raw leather into shoes, or to our barbers who invented the knife.

Q: One last question. What made you give your book the title Why I Am Not A Hindu? How was the book received?

A: I thought it was important for Dalit-Bahujans to make a powerful statement against the Hindutva propaganda that we, too, are Hindus. As for how the book was received, well, Dalit-Bahujans, of course, were very excited about it. Predictably, orthodox Brahmins were angry, but so too were some ‘socialist’ Brahmins. Actually, that did not surprise me at all, because they read Marx’s Capital just as they read the Vedas—reciting it—not a critical reading. But I did get quite a few responses from Brahmins in Tamil Nadu They wrote to say that they had read a lot of Periyar, but he had only criticised them but never told them where they had gone wrong. They said that it was after reading Why I Am Not A Hindu that they discovered what was wrong with their religion and culture and how they must change if they are to survive.

Related link

November 20th, 2000, 12:16 PM
Hello Dalit,

I welcome your recent post about the book you mention. This will now give a opportunity for other echarcha members to learn more about what you have to say and express their views about it.

I feel users like rakhwala should always first cool-headedly listen to what the other party has to say and then respond with arguments for every point that you disagree on. This truly enhances the discussion and gives it a meaningful flavour. Just inflammatory statements do not serve any purpose.

This is just my suggestion, but as I sadi before - Each one is free to speak their mind and in a style they choose.

The Real Deal
November 20th, 2000, 08:22 PM
That was really nice post Manish ^|

Dalit : The same Title book was already written by Ramendra Nath a very good Philosopher. Link was placed in this forum where we have discussed about religion issues, where I meant to unite the society only but some have labeled it that how deep inferiority complex we have :)


People needs to look thing in positive manner about the problem in our society and reform that to make a big culture instead breaking it every day in bits and piece

November 21st, 2000, 02:47 PM
I dont think these dalits follow buddhism. They follow a new religion called dalitism.

I read the 22 vows that Ambedkar took.
out of which i think these ones are very easily overlooked by the dalits.
9.I shall believe in the equality of man.

10.I shall endeavour to establish equality.

If they beleive in equality then why the hell to they want reservations.Let their children struggle equally like we the children of the "upper caste " do.

And since they have changed the religion why the hell do they still want to be treated like "dalits".why do they still want to be called as "dalits".They are now Buddhists.They are no longer the oppressed class of the Hindu society.So they no longer must enjoy the benefits of the lower castes.As lower castes only exist in Hindu religion.

November 21st, 2000, 03:23 PM
Respected Sir/Madam,

Dalits are not lower castes, they are out castes. In that way, they were never Hindus.

For your kind information, sir/madam reservation is there for making people equal.

As a Dalit, even I would like the government to take reservation away legally. I am saying legally because, if you want reservation to go, the govt. has to see that the society is equal.

Its unfortunate that we still have reservation. If the govt. had made the right effort, the reservation would have been a thing of past. We could have got rid of reservation 40 years back.

So, point

9.I shall believe in the equality of man.

10.I shall endeavor to establish equality.

are still relevant to this day.

I request you to give away your hatred towards Dalits and do something constructive in the society, so that your grandchildren don't have live in the world of reservation.

With Metta(loving kindness)

November 23rd, 2000, 07:19 PM
I don't understand the word 'hatred' that Mr. Dalit uses every now and then. Whenever there is a point made against
them, he says, 'give away your hatred against Dalits'

No one is here to throw mud on their face, no one here is with hatred in their heart, what he must understand that everyone has a point, and the more he runs away from addressing the questions posed and harping about 'hatred', Ekalavya etc, the more ridiculous your point of view seems.

This is a classic case of using the shield of the 'oppressed classes' against any question posed. Or like Azharuddin saying that he was being accused because 'he was from a minority community'. Being oppressed does not mean a person is unanswerable to society, but I guess that is what Mr.Dalit and his cohorts want. and he still has not answered the question about TN though someone else has and here is my reply to that:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To The Real Deal-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
About Tamilnadu being prosperous, it is not because of reservation, but because of a generally higher level of education in the South that has caused a boom in the IT industry. Karnataka, AP are equally and if not more prosperous and they too have almost equal level of reservation. Kerala has a problem with overpopulation and a anti-industry govt and even with reservation, has not been able to advance.

I do agree that a person coming from a 'oppressed' community
getting 60/100 when someone else gets 80/100 is ok. but 5 and 50....recently, in UP, several seats went free because, no reserved quota candidate got above 20, then they reduced the margin and finally they took all who got 0 and above ...(-ve marks were possible as it was an enterance test). In the end, people who had returned the answer sheet back **blank** were given the seats. Contrast this to someone of the forward class, who is from a very low-income family, who gets 60 and is rejected..he has every right to feel cheated.

If there should be reservation, it should **Only** be for the economically lower classes.

To Real Deal (another point)
Continuing about TN, the prosperity is **despite** politics and cinemas being the only thing on their minds. We had guys
in hostel, who would put up life-size Jayalalitha posters on their doors and burst crackers everytime Rajnikanth spoke in a movie in the open air auditorium. And they were part of the reserved quota and as far as I know, are still there in
college after 7 years.

The Real Deal
November 25th, 2000, 02:06 PM
All your BS talking is at one place, first I want to ask about your reasoning.

Rakhwala : If Dalits dont believe in Hinduism as a religion, then why do they harp about Hindu mythology of Eklavya?

Well good, lets say Eklavay story is Hindu mythology, going in same direction, then Dronacharya, Vshashistha is also Hindu mythology and Mahabharat is Hindu mythology then for that matter Geeta is Hindu mythology.

Where is this Hindu religion then SIR, how come Geeta and Mahabharat is true and when it comes to Eklavaya it becomes Hindu mythology. Is it because its written by (Nishad Putra)Vyasji.

I also observe one thing in our socity, people give much credit now to Tulsi Ramayan while orginal Ramayan written by (Chandal Putra, outcast people) Valmiiji is mostly in history. What this all shows SIR that this Brahaman Theory started with time, it was never at a level of birth earlier. People were free to become Rishi/Muni regardless of thier current situation or if their parents outcasted, then latter it same outcast people have been fixed and became Achhoot. When a Brahmna have written Ramyan again it accepted in socity, while in any religion people beleive in orginal thing only, but why it happen in medival age itself, not because of Hindu Religion is progressive but a sense of shame made this to happen;)

No its OK with you intelligent guys I shouldn't question about your IQ, because this is what your forefathers are practicing from centuries and you are product of their BS Selfish Theory.

It says when it comes to you then its all true and history but where it goes against you it becomes Hindu mythology ;)

And now, let me tell you again, by definition of your BS Theory, I am of a cast which comes under OBC and I never have taken its benefit. Do not talk this BS everywhere that you got 93% and other 12% and you did not get admission.

I accept their are some difference but not that you exaggerate. Not that a person got 99.99% and did not get admission in CS because only one seat were available. Any person can understand your this BS talk.

How come a college have only one CS seat. As for Tamil Nadu is concern, you can see people are totally getting against Brahman and then talking all that what goes against country. Why the heck you understand this and start lobbying to government, Brahman Organization, RSS, BJP to finish this cast system asap.

No its never going to happen, why because you are great, your caste is great, upper than other human, you are above human. May be you are human then they are animal as your Manu text says ;)

Don't expect any curtsey, if your such attitude will continue then it will only increase and increase in future. Its not in north yet at same level but as soon as it will be in north also at same level in TN then just imagine what will happen. Your BS theory will die automatically but one worst thing will happen, it will divide people for always.

Attitude change is needed, not just economy as some of you stated. Even with lot of money in Germany their are Nazi and other, in Gulf their is divide between Shia and Sunni and oftenly they fight. All Pakistani in US have money and living well but many of you have expressed that if you visit their Bulletin Board then you will find attitude. I recently visited one of them and find their is a fight between Shia American and Sunni American Pakistani.

My friend attitude change is important, and then economy and a sense of equality is very important for everyone. For your own benefit stop manipulating things now and accept the historical reality and accept the peoples situations in our society. Their can be some discrimination from both side but we only need to work out these thing and who can play this role at great level is a combined effort of [b]Political Party/RSS/Shiva Sean like organization and other Brahman Organization at all India level.

Why we can not erase the past miss-believing while a single handedly work of Ram Mohan Ray erase the Sati Pratha form this society which was also a Brahman theory. Support this cause in my other thread ...


[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-25-2000 at 04:31 PM]

November 25th, 2000, 02:21 PM
So, you do justify discrimination against Brahmins/upper-castes in Tamil Nadu


The Real Deal
November 25th, 2000, 02:43 PM
I never visited TN and dont know the level of hatred. One thing I tell you that look all with proper perspective. If its increasing then it will increase more if people beleive that you think them unequal, they will treat you in similar manner. Its all tit for tat SIR. However, discrimination of poor caste by the creator BS(Brahman Selfish) Theory is much worst ;)

[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-26-2000 at 01:52 PM]

November 25th, 2000, 09:18 PM
let me answer some of the points raised by rakhwala:

Rakhwala : Okat answer the following without ONE reference to that mythological Eklavya story:

1) Despite having reservations early on in junior college, why dont you score high marks like evryone else at the 12th standard exams? You have the same lecturers in college as the upper caste students, so what is wrong here? Do the upper caste not let you study in college?

For a moment if we forget all this stupidity and think rationally, there is no reason to believe that only upper caste people have good brains and get good marks, although the grades and percentage show otherwise. I accept that in general people from our community do tend to get little less grades, although not to the extent that you have exaggerated. And I will tell you why.

Today I am a successfull person working in US in software business and in near future I plan to start on my dot.com for which I have managed to rope right people and infrastucture. I did use reservation quota to get into Engg college, but today I am well known technical architect in our company of 400 peoples. I have designed and architected some well known sites. I never had to use quota to prove that I am good architect.

But to get to here, my family had to go through real tough times. My mom used to stitch clothes and made 60 Rs a month, which I had to give to my Class teacher for tution fee or otherwise he wouldnot teach me and one point threatened me with a failure. The local community where I come from people hardly have money to make ends meet forget about tution and all. I think everyone would here agree that generally lower caste people are econmoically poor also ( on a proportional basis ). They don't have any family money unlike your forefathers who had atleast good peice of land or some business. Most of this people are still farm labourers and some are maybe clerks and some in government job. Even if you go into metro cities the ecomonically poor people are generally the lower caste people. Lets forget about the caste for a moment. Baring exceptions people in engg. college are generally from atleast the middle class ( economically ). Why is that the middle class who makes up about 20% has all the students. Why are you not seeing people who constitute the rest 80% in these colleges. And the answer is that you need infrastructure and support systems that people from these segment can also come up. It is NOT because this 80% people can't get enough grades. It is becuase they don't have the support that it needs to get those grades. Grades are not inherent qualitites of a caste ( Although some people like to behave that way :-) ). And the support which I am tallking about is not the regular scholarship and all. I am talking about things like my mom not having to stitch cloth, all my cousins not troubling me when they couldnot find labour work, not affording "brilliant material" for JEE, not having to succumb to peer pressures of looking good and decent which I could not afford, not having a pressure of buying that sports shoes when everyone has that. Because these are the things that shape your social outlook and career when you are in that adolescent stage.

So on one end you have this economic hardship on top of the usual stuff that everyone else is shouting about. Unless you provide the right infrastucture people from this segment cannot come up on their own. As I said in my last post, society is by and large beneficial if you have lesser economic differences.

Rakhwala : 2) Has opression for so called thousands of years by upper castes left some brain problems? After 1947, you were allowed to have acccess to all the educational institutes which were once barred to you. So since 1947, what went wrong? What happened? Did your brain chemistry alter that you capuld not study?

Why did all these ruckus started now if we had the reservations for last 50 years. As much as you would like to believe, the case is that lower caste people started using it only for last 10-15 years. There are no insitutes barring us, but the econmic shape that your forefathers have put us in will take probably longer then 50 years to make us economically strong, and one day people from lower caste who constitute more then 60-70% of the india will start getting better grades as much as you guys. I won't be surprised if becuase of the proportion basis it maybe that upper caste might need reservations! ( I am just kidding, no offence please ). If it makes you feel better I have seen in gujrat that reserved categories in engg and medicine are now generally only 5-6% behind in closing points. That is the case in more progressive state like gujrat, though. Give us a few more years and I assure that lower caste people will be as qualified as you guys are, if not more. But for now we have to pretty much accept this is one of the viable options and stay with it, unless somebody has better suggestion.

Hope this answers your question, without any references to Eklavya story !


BTW to the site admin: I get this browser error every now and then on your site and hope that its not a software glitch.

and the page not found error. Using IE 5 on NT4.0 Server

[Edited by manish on 11-25-2000 at 11:37 PM]

November 26th, 2000, 01:39 AM
Dear Mr Real Deal after reading what you have written I'am convinced thatYou have been educated beyond your intelligence!!:D because you dont even know what you write about your arguments are so out of context!.

Why dont you do us all a favour?? rename yourself as Mr Eklavya....considering your fixation for the Eklavya story that name will suit you just fine!.:D

November 26th, 2000, 08:59 AM
I really liked what our new user manish has to say about this hot topic.

Basically, if you look at all my posts, I have always said that economy makes the world go round and the stronger the economy the faster your world will spin!

I have been following this thread and other topics concerning reservations on echarcha. What I noticed is that at some point of time, folks like rakhwala have been stung by the reservatiosn systems in colleges. On the other hand I see some people like manish who had great potential but needed that extra support to make it.

What this tells me is that when it comes to open competition, people are competing with a lot of zeal and feel cheated when instances as cited by TheMan.

I fully agree that resevrations, if any, should be purely on economic basis. I have interacted with some Mumabi Municipal and Mantralaya officials for some work for my late father way back. I saw that there were all castes of people working as ordinary clerks and peons.

The problem with our government and the overall attitude is that they have classified people over castes and not their needs! We dont have a economically backward class but a backward caste. Whether upper or lower caste, I feel that economic situation is more important and what really matters.

manish, your teacher threatened to not teach you. Well, I am sorry to say that teaching in India is no longer a selfless and noble profession as it used ot be. Coaching classes and extra tuitions are the norm. I have had to take tuitions from a particualr professor to pass a subject, though I was good. Greed and avarice does not distinguish between any caste.

Well, what I wanted to say was that this kind of discussion by the new and current generation of India will bring about a change. Our buffons in power in every Vidhan Sabha and the Parliament will never be able to bring about any real change in this aspect! You and me need to strectch out our hands to each other and hold them on. We need to wipe the bitter taste from the mouth of every rakhwala and the feeling of being cheated from every RealDeal.

After all we are all Indians first and I am proud in the USA when the name Indians is associated with hard-working, law-abiding, well-educated, technology-savvy and most-affluent-immigrant community of people.

PS: manish, that error you get is most likely from a ad that is being served. I have no control over that ad server. Please try again and let me know if it occurs for a particular ad on the front page or on every page? And hey, I would like ot know more about your dot.com plans ;)

November 26th, 2000, 10:21 AM
I am not sure whether you guys have thought about consequences of reservations based on economical conditions. Upper Middle class will just get frustrated.
I had a friend of mine, from heavily rich family and they were in a state of showing that they are economically backward. If this problem wasn't so widespread , do you think India would have any problem in Income tax collection.

Instead Make more municipal schools for economically backward, give quality education so that they can fair well in competitive exams but don't give reservations in education. And if at all required give minimal reservation. Primary education I believe is free even now in muncipal schools, but quality there is pathetic.

You may want to have some reservations in jobs but after that promotions should be based on performance only. 60% and 70% reservation is just not justifiable.

As of Gujarat, let me recall what I had heard some two years back. There these reserved seats remain empty since very few turn up in those categories. Gujarat board in such cases doesn't lower down the entry criteria but transfers all seats in open category. I have seen admission interviews being held twice.

The Real Deal
November 26th, 2000, 12:07 PM
Vicking : Where exactly you did not understand. By the way Eklavya is mentioned because story and opperassion is not written at the level it was. Eklavaya is jst a means, same thing we can talk abouy Dr. Ambedkar when he was denied for drinking water and all his childhood. These are just those about whome all know.

Its just meant to show credibility of the statement, otherwise folks will start saying that their were no opperassion at all ;) May be if we wouldn't have any such story.

Even though the story exsit in the form of our history, folks on board have labled that its mythe :)

Can be understood ;) Dron are just myth so the whole story of Mahabharata, same with associated story of Krishna is myth then Geeta is myth ;) Wehere exactly you did not understand Dear Vicking :D

November 26th, 2000, 06:20 PM
To the proponents of the economic reservations I wanted to add something.

It is definetly one of the viable alternatives but the implementation has some issues which I thought needs to be pointed out.

As I mentioned I come from gujrat which is considered progressive by the intellectual folks. Even in this cases we do tend to find discrimination based on caste. Not in schools or jobs but sometimes in your regular life as well. Although my example can be discounted as exceptions it is still worthwhile to take lessons out of it. My dad was the union leader for AG Office, SC/ST union. He fought upto supreme court to get the backlog seats numbering approx 120, to be appointed with SC/ST candidates. An officer had just converted them to open category saying there are no candidates available. Now, the only qualification you need is freakin' graduate, just BA, B Com will do. It is really hard to believe when so many people who are BA, B Com are hunting for jobs that somebody is not able to find graduate candidate. The point is even after reservations people just don't want to implement the rule of law.

This is not limited to just SC/ST. Same kind of castism is existing between Patels and Kshyatriyas. Fights are regular scene between these two guys. Today's TOI, ahemedabad section, wrote that there is too much Patel-Brahmin in the political scene, which is not good for prospects of BJP. So it is not just my view that this nexus does exist.

There was another guy in Bhavnager who had succesfully made himself a businessman. Just becuase of his lower caste, he was thrown with industrial technicalities and was incurring daily loss running in thousands, with approx. 2-3 corers business completely shut down.

And I would like to tell you what the problem is. It is hardly a .01% people like you and me who thinks rationally, who ask always does it makes sense, who have proabably come up above all this nonsense. But the rest of the folks are still tied to the same fucking mentality. And this people that I am talking about have decent education, live in big cities and have comfortable life styles. But no they want to vote for Patel, why, becuase he is our patel, doesn't matter if he is crook, he is patel. Among patels then they have kadva and leuva. If all the election candidate would have been patel then they would say, Ok this guy is kadwa, so I will vote for him.

The thing is it does not matter if you are SC/ST or patel or brahmin, the caste factor is always going to be there. And as long it is there, there will always be discrimination. Some might ask what about the dicrimination between patels and kshyatriyas. Well that is also going to be there. But given a choice, patel would like to stick to kshyatriya then the lower caste. They can live with them but not with us. Cause our lot is generally poor and pathetic. who would like to stick to these kind of people?

Now even if you provide economic reservations who can gaurantee that there will be no discriminations. If it is difficult in place like gujrat, forget about bihar, UP and all. We can make laws about it, but given the way indian judiciary works it is as good as nothing.

When I went for engineering college the scholarchip income limit was 17000 rs/annum ( in 1987 ). Who can send a kid to engg college if his family is making 1500 bucks a month. Forget about sending, that guy will not be able to clear 12th standard with that kind of income. ( And then there will be people like rakhwala who will come right out shouting, that f___er had just 50% and he is in CS !! Just kidding, don't take it personally man.) So there will be issues like income limit and all.

In my view, the only sensible way is to hasten this process of uplifting these people, that instead of another 25-50 years, they themselves should be in such a position that they are getting same kind of grades in another 10 years. And they themselves ask for removing reservations, becuase there is no difference in open and reserved category.

I think all the contentions started becuase some guy who was not disciminated against, as viewed normally, gets into good schools with lesser marks. But I have came to believe that, looking at castism in politics and in general, that it is now not obvious like old days, but remains deep rooted in people's mind. At the same time people are changing, and there are always few good people like you guys who think that this is wrong, but the proportion is so small that sometimes I feel hopeless of about the whole thing.

And hopelessness is very bad thing, it will make you crazy and pschyo, with extremist views and actions. I hope that never happens to me.


November 26th, 2000, 06:44 PM
Let my login name not be mis-understood by any as bieng racist. I am only proud of what I am -I guess everyone should be.

Now, It's a real pleasure to meet people like manish on one hand and Dalit on the other (for Obvious reasons)!

I have personally not been a victim of this "Reservastion" theory by God's grace and it is really difficult to understand the pains of the poor guy who does go through them.

There is one thing which I would like know:

Why are the Dalit's Outcaste? Outcaste of what? the Hindu Religion? By that theory, everyone who is not a Hindu is an Outcaste. Right?

If the Dalits are outcaste, they could very well have founded their own religion and got going in life instead of just crying over spilt milk. Right again?

But I would Really like to know is "WHY WERE SOME PEOPLE MADE OUTCASTE?" did they belong to Hindu caste and did something wrong and as a punishment were they made outcaste?

That would really give an insight into the real deal.

November 26th, 2000, 08:53 PM
aryaputra: Let my login name not be mis-understood by any as bieng racist. I am only proud of what I am -I guess everyone should be.

Your name does sound funky, though not as much as on gaandmasti.com !!

Now, It's a real pleasure to meet people like manish on one hand and Dalit on the other (for Obvious reasons)!

Believe me pleasure is all mine. But let me also tell you that people like Dalit are too emotional. It is not his fault though, coz some people have seen tough shit, has gone through pains and sometimes have experienced also. (My dad being one of them, has the same attitude.) I have as much pain in my heart as Dalit has, coz I know what exactly he is thinking and I have met people like him in our comunity. These are the people who have had enough and their patience are running out. In fact I am also emotional about this kind of stuff, but sometimes you have to just restrain yourself. Becuase restrain is the only to solve any problem. We can't afford to be fanatic or hardliners.

Dalit, don't be so hard man. Cut some slack and we can work this out. Please don't think I am critiszing (memory lapse - I can't spell that damn word! ) you. You just remind me how my dad talks about all this.

At the same time I hope other guys would try to understand his pains and give him some leeway. ( He is not alone though, looking at old post there were some comments from other side too, which were not so in good taste )

There is one thing which I would like know:

Why are the Dalit's Outcaste? Outcaste of what? the Hindu Religion? By that theory, everyone who is not a Hindu is an Outcaste. Right?

If the Dalits are outcaste, they could very well have founded their own religion and got going in life instead of just crying over spilt milk. Right again?

I strongly believe that religion is the mother of all fuckups. Not just hindu, all of them. They were created to aviod social anarchy and present some rules and guidelines in lack of any formal law. But people have taken it their heart and don't want to change. It was good in that ancient era but it does not apply now.

In india people are now stuck in this warp zone. Dalits were always part of hindu but they were not given any social benfits. They were forced into the religion eventhough they didnot like it. They could not even fight about it, coz half of the time they couldnot even get proper food and shelter, forget about being stronger enough to fight.

And the evidence is in place like kerala and WB. The moment missionarries came and said we will help you, people jumped. And that's the bottomline, if anybody is going to help me in any way, I don't give any shit for any religion. Do you think adavasi/SC/ST or poor people care about your ram mandir when they don't have anything to eat. They are fuckin' least bothered about any religion. They just want any kind of help that they can get, and trading religion for that is no heart rendering for them. And that is what BJP and RSS is crying about, to them this is forced conversion. To me it makes sense if it is going to give me roti for couple of days.

Ambedkar changed his religion precisely for this reason. He knew that we cannot expect any help from the upper castes. ( We are yet to see any other leader after him who tried sincerly ). So what difference does it make anyway. Although it sounds that I am all for changing religion, I am just driven by belief that religion in today's world does not carry much significance, and that you don't need to think hard before conversion. But then I might be some ignorant dumb ass, and I might be wrong.


November 26th, 2000, 11:59 PM
All opressed ones here need to read this.

In my undergrads, there was a position for a lecturer open from three years. It was a demanding position. To teach in final year to Electronics student and that too in REC, one needs thorough knowledge and atleast a Master's degree.
It was almost impossible to find a person in reserved category with required qualification.

When I was in my final year, my college at the end got hold of scheduled caste lecturer, with M.E and few years of teaching experience. We were told that he is really bright.
After one week, he was nothing but a topic of laughter in class after series of blunders he made.

I deserved a better teacher, I deserve competence to drive me. If you have not been allowed to progress, then ask for reservations at places where the requirement of competence is less. I can help but I cannot help you to snatch away my rights, I can give you my hand but not my brain.

As of crying, how much are you going to cry? ARe you going to ask Britishers oneday that we are lagging in progress because we were slaves for a century? Do you think they are going to buy your ideas?

This world runs on competence and hardwork and not on sacrifice.

Manish, you are crying your own problems, have you ever seen lower middle class brahmin family? They are being thrashed from all sides. They don't have reservations and not even money. Stop cribbing and start working.

November 27th, 2000, 12:39 AM
Hello friends,My name is Randheer Singh,I am a Rajput from UP.I was reading all the posts theese days,and they inspired to write my self.
I studied in IIT Kanpur,my Roomate was a Scheduled Caste guy.
Let me tell me one thing,in IIT kanpur there is a exam
for the Students who come through Reservation.If they fail in that there B Tech program is extended for one more year,so they can cope up the studies,But My Roommate passed that exam,I have found him as good as or as bad as a General Category guy.I am sure even if he has came through normal selection process he would have make it.
Why I am saying this is because I found "Rakhwala" very much agitated about the Reservation Fact,because he lost one computer seat in a college.
My Friend don't be agitated Cool down,I also wanted to become an IAS officer,but i dropped the idea as i was afraid of competing with so much reservation.I admit i was weak,i lacked courage
But I am not Blaming Reservations for that,because two of my batchmates who were determined got through it.One of them
a girl "Bhawna Girg" even topped the Civil Services Exams in 1999.They knew that they have to top the Exams,if they have to get IAS post.
Why I am saying this beacuse I want people not to Blame Reservations for our Plight,It should sharpen us,rather
than dulling us,
Also we should not question intelligence of a Community as a hole.Intellligence is an individual thing.

Last thing,Reservations were given as a process of Nation
Building,No one can deny that SC/STs are suppressed in past
and if their condition is not make strong,India will not become strong.
What I found is we Indians are highly selfish,We Cry for
loosing a seat in Engineering.We cannot suffer even so much our Country.What about those who are dying for the Country
on Borders,we are so narrow Minded.
A Nation doesn't become great just out of nothing,People have to suffer for it

November 27th, 2000, 01:15 AM
Every one fancies about USA,but no one thinks,how does USA became USA.People have given their Postive contributions to
the country and are proud of their heritage even if they have none.
OK ,Real Deal and Dalit the opressed ones, you people after being educated with reservation have left India for Your betterment.Very Good, No Problem.You people will be making a Lot of Fortune there.
But I think Dr Ambedkar was also very highly educated,but he prefered to work for the poors of India.My Friends it is very easy to talk about plights of Dalits sitting in an Air Conditioned Room,but have you people done anything for the
Poor Dalit Farmer of the Village.
Now if you are so much concerned about the dalits of India,
Please do something Constructive,For Example you can open an Engineering College in India where Dalits only study,I promise no one will object.Please do something for the Poor Dalit Farmer of the Village,who will eventually get no benefit of reservation.He will remain as Poor as ever.Please do something constructive.Every one will help you.
If you can not please keep your mouth SHUT!!!!,since you have left India,Forget India and the problems here as a Bad Dream.This applies to very one on the Echarkha,even to the Administrator of this site also.
Please I request you people that if you all cannot contribute positively please Forget India and the problems here as a Bad Dream.
Please don't destroy the Harmony of the society here.
We have suffered a lot beacuse of our disunity at the hands of Foreign Invaders,we don't want to repeat it.

Due to Economic Liberalisation every one of you will get good jobs and pays,so eventually no one with proper talent
will remail unemployed,so please forget all of it
and if you can contribute,contribute positively,otherwise
please don't disturb the social harmony of India.

Finally there was and always will remain only two classes in the societ:Rich and Poor,they will always be there,all the other divisions are subclasses of this,No one can remove this.

November 27th, 2000, 09:24 AM
Dear Randheer,

Your post for Rakhwala,Man is good and very correct. Yes I have come to US for better opportunity. it was not my decision but my father's decision. he asked me to go to US because he did not want his son suffer the way he suffers working in a Public Sector because of casteism.

I know is one of the best CAD programmer in his company, but he was not allowed to enter the computer room for many years. He had to go to various places to learn. I know it because I have seen his work and he is internationally recognized for the same. He did leave the country because he too old for it now.

You said that i should something for our people. I think i am doing lot for the poor from here. I run an organization that funds Dalit students, helps poor dalits and i also run a website. I am giving my 100 % for my people. And i am able to do it because I am in US. I am able send a lot of money from here and i am able collect a lot of money from my fellow dalits to help my people.

Its not a one mans fight. It has to be fought together. If we understand the problem we can solve the problem.

As you said there is always going to be rich and poor. I agree, but what i am saying one should not be discriminated because of his birth.

with Metta(loving kindness)

November 27th, 2000, 05:28 PM
I am still waiting for a clear answer to my question, although manish did try to answer it a little bit. But he got onto discussing the symptoms of Outcaste rather than the origin of the Problem.

I have heard the argument that they were opressed. My question is nobody opresses sombody just for the heck of it. There must be a logical reason behind it. Something that nobody knows or nobody wants to bring up because that would give an easy and immediate solution to the problem.

For example,
A person is "TADIPAAR" -ed when he is causing lots of trouble to the society he belongs to. I am sure that does not give the descendants of that person to call themselves OPPRESSED (or DALIT?) since they did not get the chance to be part of the regular society. Perfect example is Australia. It consists of people who are "OUTCASTE" in real terms from GREAT BRITAIN, but they did make it to the top of the world with no "RESERVATION" theory in place. They did not go crying for free goods. They worked hard for their own growth and succeeded.


The Real Deal
November 27th, 2000, 08:21 PM
-Both of you are Super Idiot!!!

-Both of you got somehow Eng. degree (may be private one by paying money:) or some jack upper caste :))
Im sure about this as kind of argument you raise.

-One stupid never studied history and coming with different name :) on board for the heck of continuing discussion with their equally stupid argument.

-Question is raised if their were reason in past that some people have outcasted, how the heck you justify that their children should also be outcasted. Now that outcasting did not happen just one are two generation before but hundreds of generation before, and when their children (out casted people) started showing brilliance (Eklavay, Karna, Valmikiji, Vayasji etc. many more unwritten) then you freakin idiot wont be able to produce same kind of brilliance.

-Can you even today give any example, do you have anyone to compare with outcasted Kshatriya like Eklavya, Karna or for that matter writer of our both epic, Prakand Pundit Valmikiji(writer of original Ramayan) and Vayasji(writer of Mahabharat) which is root of Hindu religion

-Can you answer howcome you follow a religion(Hindu), for which both epic was written by outcastes/sudra people. If you have sense of shame then just think, Muslim religion says Mohammed was Paggamber, then if Krishna was GOD then text of Geeta presented by Prakand Pundit Nishad Vayasji should be a pagamber of Hindu religion, same is true with Valmikiji

-Now one was sudra other was outcast, they both have given this Hindu religion in text form, you bloody idiot have never produce like these people if by birth caste system is believed, again if believe same theory then are you relay following Hindu religion or Dalit religion, this is very serious argument if CAST SYSTEM in current form is justified by peoples like you :)

-People were outcasted due to number of reason, like some punishment etc. initially and were subjected to return in main strean, an excelent example of these was Valmikiji. If goes to your manu text (written in Gupta period around 200AD) he also added some cross-sex theory and from their(for that period) it all became worst. I can give you exapmle, even during Nanda/Chandrgupta you Im have no ref of achhoot people same is true with during Gautam Buddha period, their were outcast but not achhoot like we had till recently. You all need a deep study in ancient history and veda etc. We have a discussion on same board if intrested talk their on this ;)

-So accept the right theory that those were the time when outcaste people were free to became according to their karma. Now your argument that why they did not compete, its all in history, read that. People were not allowed to access of anything and if tried to do so then get punishment and its all your Manu Text describe, what punishment for this if these people try to do anyhthing which goes against their ego. Now we simply have this argument how it is justified that, if a taripar is given taripar, his son should also be given taripar and its a by birth phenomena. With smae argument I can show you hundreds of Bhrahman even having all facility are actully fool in real life ;)

-If you understand these thing then you will understand your BS argument and understand you bias BS Theory.

-Support should come within you. Look the mentality, Prince Gautam can support this, Mahavira can support this, VP Singh can support this so the Guy Randheer can support this ;) but thier is no good people left in our BS Theory peak, all those who were real decender have left with Buddha itself;)

-In last I do believe in Gandhi Theory, but that is very difficult to follow. I also believe Subhash Theory which is easy to follow. Thats how I justify my harshness (dont forget N3Law) on this board whenever you idiot have same kind of attitude. Ok then Smile :)

[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-28-2000 at 05:06 PM]

November 27th, 2000, 10:07 PM
To Manish:

--u said
managed to rope right people and infrastucture. I did use reservation quota to get into Engg college, but today I am well known technical architect in our company of 400 peoples. I have designed and architected some well known sites. I never had to use quota to prove that I am good architect.

I think this is the best attitude I have seen by
anyone on this site who has used reservation. Reservation is an aid and not a crutch, and he has used it perfectly to rise above his familial circumstances

----u said
But to get to here, my family had to go through real tough times. My mom used to stitch clothes and made 60 Rs a month, which I had to give to my Class teacher for tution fee or otherwise he would not teach me and one point threatened me with a failure. The local community where I come from people hardly have money to make ends meet forget about tution and all.

Yes, but as you have stated later in your post, this is true for everyone, everyone who is poor and gifted.
Though it is very heartening to know that you succeeded
even with these circumstances, this really embodies
anyone who was poor at some time of their life...

---- u said
I think everyone would here agree that generally lower caste people are econmoically poor also (on a proportional basis). They don't have any family money unlike your forefathers who had atleast good peice of land or some business. Most of this people are still farm labourers and some are maybe clerks and some in government job. Even if you go into metro cities the ecomonically poor people are generally the lower caste people. Lets forget about the caste for a moment.

I would not agree on this. Let me tell you a personal
story that belongs to my cousin. hope it is not too long.
He, like me is a Tamil Brahmin Iyer, and his father worked in a chemical factory and his mother had modest education
At 40, he was affected by chronic asthma, had to leave his job and with all his expenses, he was literally on the street.
For four years, my aunt worked jobs, one as
a low-paid teacher in a school, one taking low-paid
tuition etc..and when my cousin had to study in
that environment, with a bed-ridden father, a
(nearly) helpless mother....so, he had to give up his dreams
of engg college, instead, he studied BSC and somehow became
a medical rep, ran pillar to post to get a job and 4 yrs
later, paid back their debt......

OK, you can say that his family had education and his father had a job but how did they get it ?????
both his (and mine) grandparents were not rich....they lived in a village where one of them was a pujari and the other was a village clerk. they did not have any land, they did
not have family money ( and to clear any misconceptions
about many Brahmins....most of them **were** never rich.
Yes, they were pujaris in temples and so had patronage under kings, and were respected,but most of them were not rich. By definition, Brahmins, as a caste, are supposed to interpret holy books, perform rituals etc...and work on spiritual advancement...and materialism does not figure here at all.
To explain this in a nutshell, it can be said that they
believed in the motto, "Simple Living and high thinking")

Continuing, my grandparents educated their children the
same way, they starving and working extra time, saving for their children......basically, if you go down any
family tree, you will always find that if there is a will,
there is a way...there are always poor ancestors somewhere
and they slowly rise up....so, it is not just for reserved
category... those who have inherited land, have family
money, did not get it from the air, their ancestors worked
for it and bought/earned it generation thru generation

So, now that you are in a good position in a good company,
do you think (and this is not rhethoric, it is just a curious question) that your children should use the reservation system ??


Lastly, I would like to say to all Brahmin-baiters, that
the main agrument, money and land and position thru
ancestry,does not hold good for Brahmins..As I have tried to explain in earlier posts (and in this one), they had
respect, but no real money. Every brahmin family who has
achieved something in India or abroad, i feel(and i can say
for certainity for brahmins from South India) has, deep
in the past, a background like the one i mentioned here.
They were poor and studied under odds to achieve success.

It is a long post...so thanx for getting to the end !!

[Edited by TheMan on 11-28-2000 at 12:21 AM]

November 28th, 2000, 10:15 AM
Dear Rakhwala,

you keep talking about Air India pilots and government doctors. for your kind information, reservation is there only for admission purpose. not for passing the exams given by the board.

Any one who writes and passes the examination conducted by the board will only be given certificate to be a Doctor or a Pilot. So I think there is no fear about the people who have passed these exams, we have to be scared of only those Air India pilots and government doctors who have paid money and got their degrees, because they are either rich or have their relatives in high places. Unfortunately we have a very few rich Dalits and Dalits in high places.

So Rakhwala, you can be very sure if you are treated by a Dalit.

Yesterday, I came to know about a fact that will make Rakhwala face red. South-East Asia's first person to get a Ph.D. in Cybernetic is a Dalit.

So cool off buddy.

With Metta(loving kindness)

November 28th, 2000, 01:47 PM
our dear fellow man rakhawala seems to quite upset about the topic that our other fellow man dalit has bruoght up. it is cotroversial,but unfortunately true. rakhwala seems to be a guy from the urban origin and surely hasn't been to rural places, remote rural places. he claims that the hue cry created by dalit community is totaly based on the imaginational ground. well my dear fellow country man i am sorry that a person like you still live in the country. have the same old grudge against the lower class of the society.
i recommend you to go the rural places and ask for shelter in good houses the first question they shoot is what is your caste, why talk about rural places? ahemdabad is a very good example that i can place. this is mypersonal experience. me father had been newly transferred to this city before we could get a decent house he was turn away because he was from backward class. now that he is agovt. servant and at respcted post still he was targeted why because he was from lower class. there are still temples in the south india and many parts of the country were dalits are not allowed inside.
and except for reservations what else do these dalits have? they still live the same country. respect the same law, that you live and respect. my dear friend the truth is that there are atrocities being done on the minorities. that is the fact that you can see withyour naked eyes, still you don't want to accept it. boy!have ever seen biggest hippocrite than you? mnman you really need to live in the true india. equality is just in the books, secularism is just in the constitution. the whole country is being run like the way it was thousands of year back.
and my dear friend you only seem to be sulking about the reservations and nothing else you really suck to chose the only topics. talking about taking all the other religions in your fold peacefully, could the gods of hindu religion please tell me who burnt the babri masjid? who burnt the innocent little children of that australian missionaryin orrisa or assam? who attacked the churches around the country?.........you say that hindus have a great contrbution towards the upbringing of the country. is it like only the upper caste people pay their taxes? and the lower caste don't pay theirs? you call the buddhist ideologicals a crap that dalit has posted on his url, well dost her is utterly crapy hindu ideological
1)according to hinduism society is divided in four different catagories, may i ask who gave them the rights to divide the man gods proudest creation in different catagories.
2) a women were forced to sit on their husbands pire as act of sati, isn't this exicting!
3)untouchability ,i presume you a sane man is it right?
and last but not the least wasting money on use less rituals like there are many is definitely not in the favour of the nation.
desh ko bachana hai tum jaise yede and narrow minded logon se jo sirf reservation ko hi mudda bana sakte hain aur kuch nahi. and after tum bore hi jaate ho to masjid todte ho

desh ko sach much bachana hai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bharat mata ki jai,
yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharat abhyudhanam-
adharmsya tadatmanam srujamyaham!!!!!!yeah dude **** ***

November 28th, 2000, 02:50 PM
Your justification of keeping reservations going is simply fantastic.You can say all this only because we upper caste people are tolerant.You say that upper caste people treated you badly, maybe yes but then even the minorities(Muslims/Christians)whose cause you are advocating treated your forefathers badly or have you forgotten about it?Or did they treat you like kings if yes, then why did you not prosper even under the Mughal regime or British regime which lasted for several hundred years.

You wish to know who demolished(no burnt)the Bari masjid?
and who killed the Australian missionary?

I would like to know fron you the following:

Who destroyed the original Ram Temple of Ayodhya?

Who destroyed the Elephanta caves near Mumbai

Who spread hate against India in Nagaland amongst the locals?

Why did VP Singh shit in his pants when upper caste Indian doctors refused to treat him and insisted on him getting treated from backward caste doctors in India?

You talk of revenge on us Uppercastes because of what our forefathers supposedly did to your forefaters.Dont we have the same right to think against the people whose forefathers harmed our forefathers..these people are mainly from the minorities who nowadays claim to be harrased.

Mr Santa Singh do you even know the meaning of Hyprocracy?Maybe you dont because you are so wrapped up in your selfish zeal.

Please make valid arguments or you would appear like Spitting at the sun!!

Desh mein asli saamanta lani hai !
Desh ko bachana hai
Jai Hind!..Jai Shri Ram!

November 28th, 2000, 03:20 PM
well well let us see aren't we living in the fuckin' past when some screwed guy comes in our country and demolishes a temple and then the devotees remember to build one ages later. One fine day they remember their deity and decide to build a temple by demolishing a sacred institution. who demolished the elephanta caves is way back long. nagaland is a integrated part of india and all that matters.
and dude i never advocated revenge against any upper class. it that the upper class whose asses are being burnt when they see a lower class individual go up. they make every possible attempt to not let him go. Reservation are the only thing that upper class can make an argument out of.where were the upper caste balls when reservations were implimented and why the **** are you sulking about them now? weren't there any hindu leader that time when ambedkar suggested reservations. it is not that we are selfish it is you are jealous. face it, it is a fact.
atalji has rightly said that the parties like shiv sena and vhp are bigger threat than pakistan. i very much agree with him.

The Real Deal
November 28th, 2000, 03:21 PM
I just updated my post above. Well Also got new member santasingh_in. Man!! Your post is exciting although out of topic.

Pls start other topic where interested people can discuss about religion level talk ;) This topic is reserve to discuss Dalit issue only. Pls. do not introduce Babri here.

Thanks for understanding:)

November 28th, 2000, 03:37 PM
hey man thanks. well loks like i won't be need here any longer now. i believe that you would be able to carry on from here
best wishes and **** them hindus and ripp their sorry sulking "why reservations for them: ass

November 28th, 2000, 04:24 PM
Dear Mr Santa Singh what are you trying to say that the temples and caves were destroyed in the past??so we should forget about them!!well if so then why dont you forget about the so called excesses committed by the upper castes
in the past?

Now you will say that they are committed even now.Well my dear friend if you have Sunlight Senas for upper castes in Bihar then you have CPI(ML)for the Dalits there too.I do not praise what either one does both these senas are a blot on our country.You said something about Shiv Sena maybe Shiv sena stands for Hindus(All Hindus even dalits who say 'India First')but then there is Dalit Sena and Bahujan Samaj Party exclusively for Dalits.

If Dalits are discriminated against today the even Upper Castes are discriminated against in places where Dalits dominate like the Govt Sector.I too was subjected to discrimination by a Dalit prof in Engg college where he used to pouposefully give less marks in the internals to all upper caste students and he even used to say that to us on our faces!.

If you say that some upper castes are rich then lots of dlits too are rich but they still make use of the ugly reservations in India to educate their children.
For that matter even you who is making lots of Dollars in the USA will not hesitate to make use of those reservations for your children.

What kind of abusive language are you using here?!! probably this is the exact reason why Dalits like you were treated the way you were.You simply do not have decency nor the calibre to participate in forums like these.You are not even open to a suggestion made by a fellow member to not to mix issues!.

Please do not think that I too cannot make use of abuses like you,it's only my upper caste upbringing that keeps me from usng them.

Jai Hind!..Jai Shri Ram!!

November 28th, 2000, 05:16 PM

"The Real Deal" tried to give me example of Valmikiji who was outcast as a punishement.

Similiarly the Australians were also outcaste by the British. Do you mean to say that the sons of those in Australia have the freedom to go back to England? Sorry my dear fellow, but the son of an outcast (if born after the man was outcast) will also be an outcast.



The Real Deal
November 28th, 2000, 05:16 PM
Mr. santasingh_in : you are another idiot who came on this board purposely ;) Although we understand who you are, but since you tried to represent a Backward then let me tell you, these people are hardworking, they may not have money but they reach here by hard work in desperity, so understand how to behave.

You wont find any of three people onboard here behaving like Rakhwala and likeminded, you behavior on board shows some conspiracy ;)

Mr. arayputra : Astralian outcast have land and everything to grow. They were outcast from England. Dalit were outcasted and were also subjected to many restriction. You first improve your knowledge by reading your idiot Manu's Text. You find all, by the way you what he describe more about outcast, chemestry between Brahamin Women and Sudra Man resulted in these outcast people(Manu) and chemestry between Brahaman man and Sudra Women resulted in some sudra caste(Manu). So all these outcast peoples are your relative from your sisters side and Sudra from your Brothers side ;) Pls read Manusmiriti for more detail info :):):)

[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-28-2000 at 07:37 PM]

November 28th, 2000, 05:41 PM
How come I did not think of this earlier.

********NEW LAW**********

There should be a law that states that if parents received benefits of the Reservation systems, no child should be allowed to apply or get benefits under the reservation system.

The logic is simple. The goverment gave you a chance to come up. If you still could not succeed like many others did, you are basically an idiot and we should not waste resources after you.


The Real Deal
November 28th, 2000, 05:55 PM
Your this law is accepted by me in totality. Infect its discussed within people in India and still under discussion, not much support yet due to politics, but it will give better chance to others.

I never have taken this benefit, so my children can take anyway ;) Although not married yet :)

November 28th, 2000, 08:25 PM
Real Deal:

Not so fast....you did not take reservation, but are you on the streets today ??? is everybody discriminating against you......are u underprevilieged... certainly not...

If u can access the internet and post regularly, u are surely not underprevileged...u are probably middle classs

Your children (will) have all the benefits, parent(s) who are educated and have facilities.......[b].then why
the heck should your children have any reservation ??

Can u answer this ?? What drawback do you have today
that will prevent your future generations from
suceeding by hard work ??

The Real Deal
November 28th, 2000, 11:51 PM
TheMan : Your argument is right after taking reservation people morally should give chance to other, whether their is law or not. As for my posting, I was just kidding. If I did not take the benefit their is no point of encouraging my children to do the same.

I have of the view that well to do people in lower community should not use the same. Also support reservation on economic basis but as Manish rightly said that one can not give the guarantee to its implementation till caste system exist, because until then people will think only my caste...his caste:)

Also its true that so called lower caste have large pool of poor people so reservation in its current form is justified as it is. However I would like to add, government should also include at least 2% reservation for so called upper caste people on economic basis on top of current reservation for oppressed people. Then it will be more justified and people who have raised this that other people also have poor then it will solve some problem. Again government can introduce such bill that if a person have taken reservation benefit once, his son should not be eligible for it, this will give other oppressed people a chance.

When we will be able to overcome these discrimination, we all will support for lifting the reservation. As today anybody can get any certificate with current bureaucracy showing fake economy status, so reservation based on economy can not justified. If caste system exist then caste based reservation should also exist.

Now you people do not just cry for reservation, it has to be their to bring people in main stream. All people should support to avoid any divide in community, if we can not stop discrimination then we also can not stop the organization like Dalit Sena or Ranvir Sena getting their feet firm.

[Edited by The Real Deal on 11-29-2000 at 04:12 PM]

November 29th, 2000, 03:23 PM
what is the use of saving money for your kid if he is not a capable kid.
What is the use of saving money for your kid if he is a capable kid.

I hope you understand the meaning. If not HOLLER!

November 29th, 2000, 03:26 PM
suffer the reservation system If I were a Muslim?
Muslims were not responsible for the oppression of the Dalits.

Any answers?

November 30th, 2000, 11:16 AM
Please try to be short and sweet.
I could not find anything in that uselessly long post that pertains to my question!

The Real Deal
November 30th, 2000, 10:51 PM
aryaputra :
what is the use of saving money for your kid if he is not a capable kid.
What is the use of saving money for your kid if he is a capable kid.

-KID is always kid, question is not of saving money for kid but being able to spend money for KID

-Hope your intelligence will improve on money management ;)

December 2nd, 2000, 04:07 PM
what is the use of saving money for your kid if he is not a capable kid.
What is the use of saving money for your kid if he is a capable kid.

REAL DEAL: Since you did not understand the profound meaning of this saying, it stands to understand about your limited brain power and/or knowledge of the intelligent world. I think in doing so, you have proved our point yourselves!!! (hit-wicket in cricket)

Rakhwala: Thanks for the moral support and touching the real crux of the matter.

December 2nd, 2000, 04:13 PM
RESERVATION FOR DALITS is like asking for a refund for the excessive interest that was charged by the JAMINDAR's / Muminjis in the years before independence!! LOL

Wasn't this excessive interest also a form of oppression?

Really speaking, Indepedence did not mean going back to settle the score that was before the British rule. Independence meant bringing all the people on the same scale and not to look at them with a prejudice or a filter of his ranking in one's religion system.


[Edited by aryaputra on 12-02-2000 at 06:16 PM]

The Real Deal
December 2nd, 2000, 06:19 PM
aryaputra :
Since you did not understand the profound meaning of this saying, it stands to understand about your limited brain power and/or knowledge of the intelligent world. I think in doing so, you have proved our point yourselves!!! (hit-wicket in cricket)

- Lets simplify it KID means KID there is no question about capability. They are not like internet startup but like a public sector ;)

- I think your parents save some of money for you instead investing in you :):):) Take it easy.

[Edited by The Real Deal on 12-02-2000 at 11:25 PM]

December 2nd, 2000, 08:25 PM
Have you lost your head?
What are you comparing? KID and internet startup company?

(and proved what we are trying to prove. Thanks for your involuntary help.)

December 2nd, 2000, 08:31 PM
Technically only kshatriyas (and later on Sikhs) were the soldiers in the kingdom's army.

Does that mean that Brahmins and other caste should get reservation for joining the army?

alternately, Khatriyas should get reservation or benefits in starting a business. Right?

The Real Deal
December 2nd, 2000, 09:30 PM
Cant help Sir!!!
Hope you did not paid money to get your degree.

December 2nd, 2000, 09:45 PM
Are the people who got less percentage in board exams and were not permitted to join higher studies(but had the interest and liking) call themselves oppressed?

Similiarly, based on the rules of the game as accepted by everybody 5000 years back, no none was oppressed. everbody got what they deserved. Don't try to bring the old accounts forward.

Go and suck your own dicks, you DALITS!!!

December 2nd, 2000, 09:55 PM
Cant help Sir!!!
Hope you did not paid money to get your degree.

This is an insult.
Even in my 12th std. I have not even gone to tuitions just because it amounts to getting unfair advantage and underestimating my own potential. I cannot even think of buying my degree.

I think this is why people like you were outcaste - for raising doubts and insulting the righteous and hardworking.

In fact my brother got only 50% in 12th grade. Our family chose to send him to B.Sc. rather than paying capitation fees for the south Indian colleges and "buying" an engg. degree. But hard work never fails. He is the most succesfull person in our family, having his own software company in USA and companies in India are joining hands with his company.

tch..tch..REAL DEAL.

[Edited by aryaputra on 12-02-2000 at 11:58 PM]

December 4th, 2000, 09:10 AM
December 4 - Times of India.

Sorry if the ettiquete is to display only link and not the the content on this site...

LEGAL VIEW/ Rakesh Bhatnagar
Raw deal for women, SCs/STs in judiciary
NEW DELHI: Women, like the backward classes, get a rough deal when it comes to appointment as high court and Supreme Court judges and are often denied the right to administer justice. Since the inception of the Supreme Court in 1950, only three women judges have adorned the Bench. Fathima Beevi was followed by Sujata V Manohar and now Ruma Pal, a sitting judge.

Women lawyers' demand for reasonable representation on the Bench remains a far cry. The issue arose during the recent Law Day function when Supreme Court Bar Association president R K Jain advocated the women's cause. ``This is not a very happy state of affairs'', Jain said addressing among others law minister Arun Jaitley and chief justice A S Anand. ``Serious efforts will have to be made to select talent from amongst the women lawyers and judicial officials for their appointment to the Supreme Court and high courts... At least 10 per cent women lawyers should be appointed to these posts in order to strengthen the movement for women empowerment.''

Jaitley contended that the government had little say in the appointments of judges but Justice Anand assured that henceforth women would get a fair chance to serve the judiciary.

No reservation has been made in judicial appointments as such high posts are governed by a Constitutional provision. Members of the scheduled castes and tribes seldom get a chance to be elevated to the Bench.

A Parliamentary committee said there were only 15 SC and five ST judges among the 481 high court judges in the country on May 1, 1998 and there was no judge from this particular social group in the Supreme Court (before the appointment of Justice K G Balakrishnan in July this year).

The committee says:``It is astonishing that there has been not only no representation for SCs and STs in the appointment of officials and staff of the Supreme Court but also no appointment rules have been finalised during the last 50 years.

It ventures to say:``Judges take oath that they (will) uphold the Constitution and the laws. But the Supreme Court and a few high courts by claiming power over the Constitution, practice untouchability and are disobeying the Constitution with regard to Articles 16 (4) and 16 (4(a)''.

Is the judiciary ``infected by ancient prejudices and dominated by notions of gradations in life?'' The report said the class prejudices of the judges did not allow full play of their intellectual honesty and integrity in their decisions. Their judgments very often betrayed a mind set more useful to the governing class.''

Is judiciary a ``super speciality service with merit as its bedrock?'' The reports says:``To argue that only those with merit have found a berth in the judiciary is specious. Such a notion presupposes that those drawn from the weaker sections do not have enough merit. There is no scientific basis for such a view which can only be held by an incorrigible bigot''.

The committee headed by a BJP MP and tribal leader Karva Munda says the judges from the elite group may find it their filial duty to defend a system established by their forefathers, even at the cost of truth and universal values, but it asks as to how can such judges claim to have a right to sit in judgment over the issue of the right of the backward classes?

The Vajpayee government, on the other hand, asserts that it has no intention to control the judiciary and is rather opposed to any such move.

December 5th, 2000, 09:12 PM
If you are bieng mis-treated, not respected, beaten up, looked down, shunned and your GAAND is bieng set on fire IT IS BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT!

GROW UP MENTALLY. GROW UP WITH FAMILY VALUES. GROW UP WITH AN OBJECTIVE. This is what you lack and then blame the rest of the world for your misfortune.

People like Manish are the real people who grew up and ventured into the world and succeeded in life.

It is your behaviour which makes the world shun you. It is the way you people live and behave that is a horror to the eyes of the other.

For example, in general black people are also shunned by so called white upper class but the best model is NAOMI CAMPBELL who is fucking black. Why? becasue she knows how to take on the world. Learn to live in this free world.

Another problem with you DALITS is that you have such a servile mentality that generations of you do not like to revolt against the world. you like to be pushed down and stay that way. Get up and live life your own way. THAT IS THE BASIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DALITS AND UPPER CASTES.

Why would I not like to oppress if you want to be oppressed. It gives me a sense of POWER. Why should I give it up? If you have the guts, break free by yourselves. I am not going to come after you if you break away. Some sucker is always willing to be oppressed and will come my way today or tomorrow. no big deal.


I am willing to bet that they will beat YOU up for instigating a revolt against the world.


[Edited by aryaputra on 12-05-2000 at 11:14 PM]

December 6th, 2000, 07:10 AM
Dear Aryaputra,

You have crossed the limits. If you believe in what you are say and if you are truly that great and truthful. Do have the guts to put all you have said in a signed document.

If i get such a document from you, i will surly spread your words about Dalits, even if they "beat" me.

Will wait for such a Day.

I have a piece of advice, don't hate anyone. coz Hate hurts the you not the person you hate.

All the best

With metta(loving kindness)

[Edited by Dalit on 12-06-2000 at 09:12 AM]

December 6th, 2000, 11:28 AM
Hi Dalit,

We all are ready to sign, the only problem is what do u do with that sign paper. Infect I would request you to visit http://www.dalistan.org/

I am sure even if being a dalit if u r Indian by heart, u yourself ask for removal of reservations.

December 6th, 2000, 11:29 AM
sorry guys, keyboard mistake, its http://www.dalitstan.org


December 6th, 2000, 12:18 PM
If you sigh such a paper you will be arrest under the prevention of attrocites act, without bail and you will be in jail for minmum 7 years.

http://www.dalitstan.org is an anti-national website agreed, if you want a real website for Dalits its http://www.ambedkar.org

I am person who respects the law of the land. Even today i am for removal of reservation, provided its done constitutionally. For that every Indian as to work. What we need is not a constitutional grantee. we need a social transformation. We need every Indian accept the inequality, and work towards the upliftment of the downtrodden.

With metta

[Edited by Dalit on 12-06-2000 at 02:24 PM]

December 6th, 2000, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Dalit

I am person who respects the law of the land. Even today i am for removal of reservation, provided its done constitutionally. For that every Indian as to work. What we need is not a constitutional grantee. we need a social transformation. We need every Indian accept the inequality, and work towards the upliftment of the downtrodden.

Now you are speaking sense DALIT.

Dalit, ever since I have started understanding the world, I have always differentiated people by:

1. their approach to the world
2. how they talk
3. how they behave
4. Their sense of responsibilty
5. Their attitude to life

Believe it or not, but in my School Leaving certificate the only indication is that I am a "HINDU". No sub castes mentioned. My parents never agreed to differentiation based on castes and we ,their sons, have carried their thoughts on with us.

I am sorry I had to be so fiery in my last post, but this resevation theory and "special care" arguments have pissed me off.

since the last 25 years I have never given a thought to this matter of Dalits and Non Dalits. Why think about it if I don't believe in differentiation. If a person is capable of earning my respect, He damned sure will get my respect - be it a Dalit or Non Dalit. The person has to prove his capability..to pick up knowledge in life, to do things in life that have a +ve effect to himself and to his family memebers.

For a time, I was in-charge of a CNC machine shop and the most respected person in that shop was my assistant engineer who started as a helper in my shop since he was barely educated. But that did not stop him. He used to learn from me and other people whatever he could and by the time I moved from that company, that person was in-charge of the biggest CNC machine in the whole workshop. That is what I expect from DALITS. Not to cry for reservations.

For your kind info. the state of gujarat has had a backward class chief minister who got a seat for medical school for his son based on reservations. That is the first time, I felt cheated. WHY SHOULD THE SON OF THE CHIEF MINISTER NEED ANY RESERVATION?


The Real Deal
December 6th, 2000, 07:44 PM
Dalit : I totally agree with your this post. As for site I spend few minute their and also find in today's news that this is started from some Tamil Extremist Group.

Well they say to oppose Hindi(lobby) and Brahman. I'm disagree with them on both. As for Brahman, then I oppose the system not Brahman. Their are few good people who also know about the evil BS(Brahman Selfish aka Bull Shit) Theory which is responsible for divide in community and also harming India's and Hindu's greater interest. Sooner we will understand the better it will be for of our greater interest.

aryaputra : Good to see you sir!! Why thanks only Dalit ;)

[Edited by The Real Deal on 12-06-2000 at 09:49 PM]

December 7th, 2000, 07:51 AM
Dear Mr. Aryaputra,

I understand the agoney, i had the same exprience. I had a classmate who happened to be well connected because of who she was born as. In our engg. course, we have workshop. Once you fail in Workshop there is no way one can pass it again because there is not revaluation. When the provisional results came it showed she had failed, but when the marks card came had cleared work shop.

What i am getting at is, there always one or two cases like this. But we should base our judgements based these cases. like your CM. At present reservation is doing good to a lot of poor people.

I know cases where even if a Dalit person is selected on merit basis he is put as a reserve seat.

We are not talking about me and you. I am sure if we both meet we will be talking in a very good way. and we will not have any hatred with each other.

We are talking about the poor people who are in the village where they are treated as untouchables even today. They can not revoult because their day-to-day living depends on the opressor. They do not get the fruit of reservation.

This the reason i call for social transformation. it has to come for within once heart.

See the number crimes committed that i have documented in http://www.ambedkar.org it will give you a sence that all is not well in our country.

I dream of a nation that will not discriminate people based on thier brith or color or race. we are all Indians.

With metta

December 7th, 2000, 07:29 PM
Mr. Dalit.

How do you stop someone from Oppressing somebody else?
I don't think it's possible. This is the basic nature of man. He will be either oppressed by someone or be oppressed by someone. The basic nature of humans is to prove himself superior.


In our case, it has been generalized as:


USA is forcing other countries to accept it's PATENT laws and succeeded. India revolted and did not accept. India said we will die but not accept your DADAGIRI.

That is the approach required by the DALITS.

That is how you can break shackles.

Just look at the reservation practise. The moment UPPER CASTE felt threatened by the DALITS, they have revolted.

Nobody should be taken for granted as a charitable person.




It's better to die once than to live like a rat and die daily.

Himmatein Marda to Maddad-e Khuda

Meaning God helps those, those who help themselves.

December 7th, 2000, 07:55 PM
Hi Guys,

I have EXTENSIVE experience in India, having travelled virtually in every state. I have SEEN atrocities on Dalits that are unimaginable (Yes Aryaputra, they exist). I have also seen unspeakable atrocities commited BY Dalits on the Upper Caste (Yes Mr. Dalit, they exist too). I have seen atrocities committed by Dalits on their fellow dalits (Yes!!). I have also seen atrocities committed by Upper Class on other upper class in the name of Reservations (Great Atrocities). My purpose is NOT to fight for or against reservation. It is to bring facts to your notice (all sides) that YOU may have an idea of what is really happenning. Since I cannot write my experiences in one go, I will write lil' snippets every time - but no value judgements, no sides OK? Is it OK by you Sutradhar? If not, plz mail me.

This happenned in Bauruli Village of UP and I am an eye witness. By a stroke of luck, a Dalit became the richest man in the Village. This was because he worked in the Gulf as a truckie. He wanted to build an Aalishaan Makaaan for himself. But the upper caste counseled him that his Makaan cannot be bigger than the Thakur's - it has to be atleast 2 fingers smaller. The time was not propitious and Mars and Saturn were at loggerheads. The time would be auspicious after 108 years - so could he wait for that time - for the sake of the Village. He refused, and built the BIGGEST house in Bauruli and the surrounding villages. It created ripples - a revelution around.

This is what happened : Bauruli and the next village, Barampur have an oooold stone elephant each in the public chouth. They are really old. No one knows how they got there. Some say Emperor Ashok built them, others say that Vikramaditya built them. But no one knows.

Suddenly, in this village, Bauruli, the elephant's manhood got blackened by miscreants. and the next village, Barampur, announced that "Our Elephant is a male while the Bauruli elephant is a female". The Bauruli villagers got angry and one night entered Barampur and burned the huts. Barampur villagers in turn got angry and broke and burnt Bauruli huts.

In reality, only the DALIT huts were burnt and broken. This was all a drama. Then the village elders came (the same guys who created the drama) and announced that "Jis Desh Mein Gandhi ne Janam Liya, Us Desh mein jhagadna nahee chahiye". It was jointly announced that both elephants are male, and the blackened manhood was cleaned.

In this process, the rich Dalits Aleyshaan Makaan was RAZED and he was severely thrashed - for challenging the rule of the Upper Castes.

Friends this truly happenned. I am the original witness. Next time I will show you how Dalits screw Dalits and how Dalits Screw Upper Class. PROMISE. Please understand that I do not want to take sides, but to expand your perspective. Thanks.

December 7th, 2000, 08:30 PM

As the topic has moved to REVOLT and REVOLUTION OF DALITS.
I would like to add some , from my side.
I remember you have quoted an interview of a professor from Hyderabad , who was born in warangal in the state of Andhra Pradesh.

Ill tell you the present scenario of the District of Warangal, Andhra Pradesh. This applies to whole telangana region of Andhra Pradesh.

As you said earlier ..Dalits are ill treated and are exploited by upper castes . Yes ..true ..it did happened in Telangana too. Hats off to the Telangana Dalits ..they were brave and revolted against their land lords(during 1960-1985). This revolt was steered by the principles of communist philosophy and now popularly known as NAXALITES or NAXALISM.

BTW , FYI ..many a times these Dalit revolutions are infact headed by Upper Caste people of Andhra PRadesh. Upper caste of Andhra Pradesh are Reddy, Brahmin, Kamma and others. You can see Upper caste leaders form 50% of the frontline leadership in naxal movement .
Please check with your near and dear dalits in this region .. its 100% true.

The naxal movement here really helped dalits to empower themselves to gain the social equality , financial strength and others. Now the total telangana is free of Dalit supression. Enquire with your near and dear dalits in this region they call it as LIBERATED ZONE.

Majority of MLA's, MP's and other important positions are occupied by Lower caste people here.

No upper caste guy can dare to opress any lower caste guy in this region.

OK ..now the situation is so much favourable to Dalits here ..but can you guess what is the condition of this area now ?

Telangana region turned worthless for the state.
Former naxalite dalits ..turned into forest brigands , engaged in loot, extortion , mafia, smuggling, and irrelevant terrorist activities.
Dalits leaders, rather educating their fellow brothers ..are engaged in making money. Forgot their purpose.
In spight of numerous opportunities ..still the schools in this region has low attendance of dalit students.

Opportunity is bright ..to be prosperous ..and develop the dalit community . But the actual scenario ..says some thing else.Its absolute chaos here.
Now ..Please do not accuse the upper caste people for these conditions. Its the Dalit people who themselves have turned this region worthless.


December 7th, 2000, 09:05 PM
Some more stories guys. In Champapur (Bihar/UP border)one Thakur did Baal-Kishan-Yagya. Basically, a pot of butter (makkhhan) is tied with a rope between two trees, inaccessible to anyone. Then the holy prayers are chanted. In the evening the pot is taken down. Whatever Baal Kishen wants, he takes - the rest is given as Prasaad.

Well, the Brahmin utterred his "Hoom, Oum, Dhom" etc. in very pompous and authoritative way in front of the Agni (Fire). When the pot was taken down guess what happened? Baal Kishen had eaten ALL the butter and as prasaad, left a semi-automatic gun ! This happenned before the whole village!!. They were confounded and a mahaa-pundit was called from Patna. He did some analysis and came to the conclusion that it was not a gun, it was the Gandeeva - Arjuna's bow.

Buss. The Thakur declared himself as Arjuna. Suddenly from nowhere, 4 more Thakurs came as Yudhistira, Bheem, Nakul and Sahadev. Then they wanted to find out Draupadi that they may be complete ('Akhanda Purushartha'). They are enjoying the company of several women (always lower caste, often forcibly) to find out their 'one-true Draupadi'.

Friends, I have observed that in rural India the Brahmins never take up arm (non-violence) - except for Bhumihars in Bihar (Ranavir Sena). But they play havoc by all sorts of gaand mastee. See another eg.

In Shobeinpur (Orissa) there is a system that all lower castes (esp. Dalits) have to address the upper caste Rajputs as "Santhaa" meaning, "My Lord". Some communists from Calcutta had come and taught the Dalits to call the Rajputs as "Bandhu" - brother. The Rajputs had got angry, thrashed the communists and sent them packing, punished the Dalits and abused their women. The Dalits went back to calling them "Santhaa".

Now the Brahmin of the village would offer prayers and go home. If he chanced to see a Dalit, he would move aside and HURL some sanskrit at the Dalit - "Om Bhoo, Dhooo" etc. Well, once he did the same thing to a Dalit boy, and what do you think happenned? The Dalit boy answered in ENGLISH (You Phull (Fool)). He had picked it up from some scientists to had come there to study an eclipse.

Friends, can you imagine what the Brahmin felt? ENGLISH against his Sanskrit? He was seething. A couple of days later, something was written on the Village Notice Board (A Big flat stone is used as a notice borad). It was signed by a pictrure of a sickle and hammer, purpotedly being wriiten by Communists. The Brahmin was called to read it (he is the only one who can read).

My Gawd - he creatred such draamaabazee before the Rajputs. He put a flower on his eyes saying that his eyes B-U-R-N-T while reading such thrash. He went and slept on the floor and touched the Rajput feet for forgiveness - then he told what it was : "Rajput Naachput Hoteda, Chamar Naraamaar Bothedaa" - Rajputs are children of Dancing Girls (Naachput) while Chamars are Lords of Women (Naraamaar). Enough! The Rajputs were sure that the Communists had done that at the instance of Chamars(a lower caste). They had their houses burnt, women abused and they were tortured beyond imagination!! See the gaaand-mastee?

That is enuf for today. Tomorrow I will tell you the case of how Kurmis (Lower Caste) committed a GENOCIDE on the upper-caste (12,000 dead). Bye for now.

December 8th, 2000, 06:53 PM
Great Going Shringarey!

This is what I was shouting all along.
One's fate is in his own hand. Simply saying that I did not grow up because I was oppressed is BULLSHIT.

These people more often than not have proved to have no values. They just live for the moment and do as the events or somebody else forces them to do.

They never wanted to be responsible for their own fate. Guess what, Somebody will take that in his hands. then you shout "OPPRESSION".

Keep up your incident narration. This will help everybody in realising the truth.

The Real Deal
December 8th, 2000, 09:00 PM
sring :
Friends, I have observed that in rural India the Brahmins never take up arm (non-violence) - except for Bhumihars in Bihar (Ranavir Sena). But they play havoc by all sorts of gaand mastee. See another e.g..

-So you are on a mission to prove that Brahaman did not do but its Thakur ;)

-You really do not need to prove anything, its all people knows all these BS Theory creator. Who have played politics and put India in slavery of Muslim. Yes indeed they never have taken up arm, all what Ranvir Sena murdering people everyday is just shorts of gand mastee:( That how you do gand mastee, and murdering poor people by you is justified by you in your word is just sorts of gaand mastee

-How pathetic like minded are supporting your BS story. Your mind is just full of idiotic ideology.

December 8th, 2000, 10:39 PM

Last time I promised you I would tell you a GENOCIDE committed by lower caste right? Here it is -

This happenned in Bihar in the early nineties. You see, the Govt appoints rain-markers (Paani-Ghoras), - people who are given by the Govt a measuring bucket, and they have to note down the rainfall EVERY DAY. This info is collected by the water & Irrigation Dept. The minimum requirement for this post is 5th std pass. Get the situation?

Now because of this reservation chakkar, they gave jobs to UNEDUCATED dalits (or 1st std pass). These people did not even know how to write. It was said - "Social Justice". Get the situation?

These fellows have to give a report to the Govt every week (7 papers - one for every day). What do you think they did as they cannot write? They learnt how to write just one number - one person wrote '30', another '35', etc. They repeated this number EVERY DAY. Based on the water readings, the dam was built there. But the water readings were faulty. The actual rainfall was 5 times that. What happened? Dam broke, water went out. Death Toll = 12,000 deaths - A GENOCIDE!!

How do I know this? Two of the engineers were my class mates in school. One of them saw what was happenning and objected. He was threatened "SC/ST Forum ko complain karenge". But he knew that if the dam broke, he would be morally responsible. He had sleepless nights. He resigned, came to US and is now a cab-driver. The other friend continued in his job. Today he is mentally unstable (due to moral guilt) and has to undergo psychiatrist treatment.


This happenned in MP. The factory was producing ABS (Alpha Butadiene Styrene). As per govt rulesthere is 80% reservation for Dalits. Some of them have become pharmacists with 0% marks (I know it sounds ridiculous - but its true). He began fucking up and passing faulty ABS as true - he could not operate the ERICA machine. The boss objected. He got angry. A BIIIIG Dalit MP came and said - "Daliton me atyachhhhhhhar ho raha hai". The boss resigned in disgust. Batches after batches passed. The ABS went into medical bottles in 5 states. What happens if your medicine bottle is poisonous? - PEOPLE DIE. The Death toll in Norther Bihar itself due to bad bottles was 560. How many in rest of Bihar? What of MP, Rajastan, UP and Orissa? How many? The matter was hushed up, so I know not - BUT A GENOCIDE!!



December 11th, 2000, 03:17 PM
fuck jai ganesha,**** om namah shivayafuck ,shri krishna,**** jai bajrang bali. **** the hindu , **** them hard.

December 11th, 2000, 03:31 PM
Hello Mr santasingh_in

I think you have become blinded by so much hate that you have now started writing totally stupid things. Please do not make any direct insults on anybody's God or beliefs.

This thread is about man made reservations and I dont see how Gods come into the picture?

Your views may be differing from others and you are welcome to post them, but please dont hurt everyone's religious sentiment.

A properly worded - however strong it may be - argument would be much more helpful here that just plain abuses...

Hope you can understand the need of the majority of echarcha users to get some meaningful discussion here. There is already on 'rakhwala' and one 'aurangzeb' here who talk non-sense at times and we dont need one more addition to that.


December 11th, 2000, 03:34 PM
Mr Santa Singh if you are not a Paki already then a word of advice there is a new guy Aurangzeb why dont you lick his feet.The scum on his feet will be a healthy source of nourishment for you..He's from Pakistan the place where you will eventually have to go..after being kicked out of India.

Jai Hind!..Jai Shri ram!!

December 11th, 2000, 03:55 PM
hot news viking rakhawala and other bunch of ****ing hindus caught in bed with ramchandra the great gay of the whole mythology

December 11th, 2000, 04:03 PM
oh hanuman was he?!

December 11th, 2000, 08:05 PM
kyon re santa

tera dimak satak gaya kya ?
moderators or echarcha ..why dont you guys remove these stupid postings which are irrelevant to the topic being discussed here.

and one more thing ..apna santa singh ka dimak satak gaya hain .. usko koyi paagal khana mein bhej do ..please.

hey ..santa tu phikar mat kar ..tere liye ek ambulance aa raha hain ..just wait for a while.

December 12th, 2000, 10:53 AM
well indian i am still waiting for the ambulance.

December 12th, 2000, 12:46 PM

Do you know that the largest cause of AIDS is errors in blood transfusion? All countries, including India require an AIDS test before blood transfusion. A lot of people in the blood testing dept are Reservation Candidates, having secured 4-6% marks!! In TN, the Safai Kaamgaar Liberation Act, has made 'Medical Associates' of sweepers after giving them 2 months training. Consider this statistic :

(Source of Colm 2 - WHO, Colm3 - Dalit Manch)

State % of people with AIDS Reservation %

This is sad, sad, sad....


[Edited by Shringarey on 12-12-2000 at 02:51 PM]

December 13th, 2000, 04:15 PM

Did you know that when resrvations were introduced in Railways, train accidents shot up by 2700% !!??

The problem is that people in the Control Tower do not have even the basics of English and are in charge. One incident is poignant. Once the trainer was explaining some complicated features and asked the question - "Do you understand?"

Dumb Looks

"Did you understand?"

Dumb Looks

"Aap Samaz Gaye??"

Vigorous shaking of heads to understand Samaz Gaye.

In 5 years these will head the control tower by virtue of accelerated promotions. All hell will break loose !!!

God save us!!!

Sad, Sad, Sad.....

December 13th, 2000, 06:31 PM
I just realised that this thread has crossed 100.
Well, have we come to some broad or basic conclusion to the topic here yet?

December 13th, 2000, 08:40 PM

Once stats are put, Dalit, RealDeal and Singh RAN away.

December 14th, 2000, 10:54 AM
hey dicks i'm back! well someone might have noticed or not but it is like, this charcha is leaving the original track. Mr. Dalit had posted this topic to discuss the atrocities that are taking place against dalit in our country, but sorry asses like rakhwala and likes are sulking and posting stats about reservations and it's after effects. while someone like me and rakhwala take liberty insulting big names and people.
this shows the mentality of the upper caste people that they only want to sulk about reservvations and how they are deprived of oppertunities to get a better career. guys get a life and talk more on the original topic "crime against dalit in india." and not resrevations. why don't you open a new discussion like "do we need reservations or not?" and if you don't get right things to say then take a break and jump of the thirteenth floor.

December 14th, 2000, 02:10 PM
I really don't understand with the guys who are opposed to reservation. Reservation is there only for admission, not for passing. Why are these castes Hindus so dumb to understand this.

I am not aware of any institution that has reservation for passing a course.

So if someone messes with Blood testing its not because he happens to be a Dalits, its because the training given to him. And who are the teacher and Profs. its all caste Hindus.

while we are taking about reservation, Defence in our country does not have reservation, why was our borders not defended by our so called "Merit" oriented caste Hindus and they had to fight a Kargil war in order to get back our own land.

What about all the multi-million scams involving defence, is it because of reservation.

We are here to talk about serious problems in the society. We are talking about making people equal. If same stats say the AIDS was increased because of reservation, that means there is some serious problems. The people who in the blood banks must trained.

December 14th, 2000, 02:34 PM
My Dear Dalit,

1. The Issues I am talking about are NOT because of reservation in Colleges/Univs - they are because of Reservations in JOBS. Several times, reservation in jobs, the criteria are reduced to ridiculous levels. Plz see all my posts on that. Here are some of the cases :

i) Bihar - SC/ST candidates can be Doctors with 3% passing marks. They have rison to the level of Dy Sergeon General!!
ii) UP & TN - SC/ST are upgraded from 'Safai Karmachari' to 'Medical Assts' after a course wchich lasts from 1month to 6 months. Ridiculous!!
iii) MP - There are several teachers in the university science course who have got because of ridiculous passing of 2%. What will they teach?
iv) Research institutes use candidates NOT at all qualified.

Sirs, it is in THIS - that when criteria are lowered to ridiculous extents in jobs that problems are created - NOT because of reservations in univs.


You yourself have raised the issue of Kargil. Why the problem?

i) We do not have good winter shoe manufacturing company. Why? RESERVED for small scale sector.
ii) We do not have proper guns. Our guns can load 3 bullets at a time while the enemy can load 240. Why? If we buy foreingn guns, the local workers will lose jobs - they have to be PROTECTED.
iii) We do not have night goggles. Why? RESERVED for govt. The inventor of TARPON night goggles (latest), Ajit Ghosh was refused permission - US snapped him up.
iv) We have inefficient sledgepaks. Why? Because we make them bad. At one time we were the best. Then what happened? Govt NATIONALIZED the Winter Eqpmt Mfg Co.

See? All Protection - caste based or not is BAD.


Sirs, plz do not think that I am only RESERVATION-BASHING. I have also written about genuine atrocities on Dalits (See earlier Posts). I have extensive knowledge on the subject (at least I fancy I do). I have seen REAL atrocities on Dalits. But so have I seen atrocities BY Dalits. I am just putting them all down

Thanks & Bye.

December 14th, 2000, 02:51 PM
Hey Shringarey,

Where have I opposed your views? I know what you have posted. But I was wondering where did I object to anyone posting whatever they thought was right to post on echarcha?

If your reply was to Santasingh_in, then its between you and his posts. Hope this clears any misunderstandings. :D

Infact I just posted one more post to let you all know that there were several other topics on this reservations issue and if you feel you have thoughts on those, then you should post them there. Here are the links once again for all of you to read.


December 14th, 2000, 02:53 PM
there you go again. talk of crimes against dalit! reservation is not our topic. i agree that few unworthy people benifit from reservations, there is no doubt about that. infact 50 %of the people that take the benifits are unworthy of their seats. but aas you see reservations is not our topic. it is CRIMES AGAINST DALIT IN INDIA.
i ask all the higher caste people here isn't there any crime against minorities that are taking place? agreed that dalits also indulge in such lowly acts. but you people are supposed to be the well educated ones and not the dalits, then why are such incidences taking place? open your eyes, take a look around and try to accept the fact.

December 14th, 2000, 03:03 PM
I guess Dalit is in USA and must have lived India quite a while.

If you are talking about having efficiencies and skills of the Dalits who have used reservation, please let me know the case and status of following guys.

Your Family Doctor
If you have been operated ever, All the Doctors
Your Wife's (Or mother's, sister's) Gynecologist
Child Specialist
Your Income Tax Consultant
You Private Tutor

In short whatever high-tech/high-skill services you got. If they all are Dalits then I can believe in you.

December 14th, 2000, 03:30 PM
man can't you guys read or what? do you know english? hey smellyfingers, getting back on track means discussing about crimes against dalits that's what Dalit had post this charcha not about reservations. i agree with your suggestions about reviving the reservation system. it is apprecitated as well. but the fact is that is not exactly what we are discussing.
hey siraj all the non dalits are not einstein as well.
hey Mr.SUTRADHAR could you open a new discussion for these people like is reservations are needed or not? these guys are getting way of track. don't you think so?

December 14th, 2000, 03:36 PM
santasingh, look again ..


December 14th, 2000, 03:45 PM

December 14th, 2000, 03:48 PM
This happenned in Daulatpur. The lower caste women there are called as 'Sastee Chidiya' (Easy Prey), and are abused by the Hungaas (Upper Caste). One day a well educated man came to the village. Later on I learnt that he was a famous Oriya writer. He came for peace to write a drama. As a form of respect, the chief Hungaas 'offerred' a Chamar lady. He refused. They were confounded!! They said "Sahebji, Raam meti aneku narreeyo khobba" (Even Ram had lots of wives sir). This man was angry. No - he said Ram had only ONE wife , one arrow, one word (Truth).

This confounded the Hungaas. They were abusing the Chamars and using Ran as a cover-up!! If Ram had only one wife as this gent said, they were finished. They went to the local Brahmin who guided them "Ram had one wife, but several Dasis (women slaves)". Ideologically things were satisfied. In a week's time some Dasi statues (small) were installed in the Ram mandir, and yranny continued. It would have continued on and on, but a funny thing happenned.....

One day some people came from Bhubaneshwar in 6 jeeps, heavily armed with guns. They entered the temple and smashed the statues. The villagers were aghast that Upper Caste men did that. On enquiries, this followed :

There are two castes in Orissa, Lowe Caste=Ramdasi(Children of slave girs lof Ram) and Ramdasia (Citizens of Ram's kingdom). There is an 'a' difference. RamDasi are SC. But magically, in the Govt Register, an 'A' was added, and Ramdasias took the benefit. In court, the court ordered that Ramdasi should be made SC. But magically, when the court order was printed, 'RamDasia' should be SC was written. The judge was angry and wrote the order himself!!

This was challenged in the Supreme Court. There Upper Castes argued that there is NO difference between the two as Ram had no Dasis. When they found that there was a temple which had Ramdasis, they had to destroy it. Last I know, case still continues.

What happenned in Daulatpur? For some time, nothing. Then back to normal. In a village of 3000 people, at least 5 rapes take place daily. Why did I not stop it? Kisko Kisko rokegaa? They are not called rapes, but 'Pavitra Poojan' ie Upper Castes are purifying Chamar wombs.


December 14th, 2000, 03:56 PM
HEY MAN, I AM talking to those guys who are raking up the issue of reservation

December 14th, 2000, 04:25 PM
man i really have sympathy with rakhwala for all that he talks is reservations and nothing else. i really think he should get himself get checked by skilled upper caste doctor for his state of mind

December 14th, 2000, 06:30 PM
Rakhwala, The episode is NOT a folklore. I happenned in 1997.

Guys, did you know that there is a slave market in India? Place - Handi,UP. Time : 1997

There is a guy who goes around by the name of Mohandas, Gora Chuha, MahaMucchahad amongst others. He 'buys' several poor girs usually from the Mahar, Kurmi and Chandaal caste and brings them to Hundi. He has about 20 emplyees ('saathiyon').

These are sold to :

i) Lustful rich
ii) Brothels
iii) Arab Pleasure Seekers
iv) Beedi Manufacturers
v) Road Contractors.

The people in the village are NOT sympathizers, but are terrorized by him. He had muscles, gun and contacts (pahunch). He has even registered his operation as an 'employment exchange'! The police refuse to accept it.

Finally, one newspaper guy 'bought' a girl and proved it before Lucknow people that 'slavery' existed. What did the govt do? They accepted that slavery existed (no alternative) and filed a case against the same journalist for 'Human Trafficcing" !!! TRUE!!!

Next time I will tell you the other side - how the 'Valmiki Rojgaar Yojanaa' is hyelping spread hunger in India


December 14th, 2000, 06:33 PM

You may have noticed that I am a 'Double Dholkee' - speaking once this way, once that. But I know a lot of both sides of the issue. Do you mind??


December 14th, 2000, 06:40 PM
I really dont mind that you give so much information - from both sides of the coin.

As long as people here can learn and be aware from the information posted by you or any other user, the aim of echarcha is achieved.

One can have mixed feelings about a topic. So go ahead and post. Infact most of your posts about this human trafficking and how things happened in Orissa and other psots are quite informative.

December 15th, 2000, 08:10 AM
Dear Siraj

I am sorry to dissappoint you.

Most of the details you have asked will have a Dalits Name in it

Your Family Doctor - Dr. Raghuram, HAL Hospital
If you have been operated ever, All the Doctors- No operations yet.
Your Wife's (Or mother's, sister's) Gynecologist - Dr. Satyavathi ( Also a Dalit)
Child Specialist- Dr. Prema a Dalit again
Your Income Tax Consultant - Shreedharan Again A Dalit
You Private Tutor - i Never needed a Private Tutor

In fact i am more comfortable with Dalits taking care of me. I dont trust others so much, because they might have used thier money and thier castes to get to where they are.

My the way, i have never had any problems where Dalits are involved.

With metta

December 15th, 2000, 09:39 AM
Dear Rakhwala

Govt. is giving 33% reservation for Women. will you talk the same you have been talking about Dalits to your Mother and Sister.


And now that Women will have reservation, you will stop using the service of Women.

December 15th, 2000, 10:25 AM

I realy became glad to knot the information from you. You are the real one who believes in strong Dalitizm.

BTW, Buddhism is all about equality. You are also tranied for that one, why should you choose all the Dalits for your services. Even by accident you may have any Hindu or Muslim on your list?

Are you not ready to give all equal opportunity?

With love,


December 15th, 2000, 11:18 AM
Hi Guys,

As promised, I will tell you the other side of the story. Valmiki Rojgaar Youjana - a scheme for the upliftment of STs. One of the things they do is employ SC/ST Weavers to make jute bags. Jute bags are used for grains and lentils, cement, sugar, fertilizers, pesticides, etc.

There is a better technology called HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) - basically the Plastic Bags that you could have seen. HDPE has a LOT of advantages over jute. It is far cheaper, does not have wear and tear, no leagage through sieves, etc. Unfortunately it is NOT bio-degradable.

Friends, use of jute bags leads to a wastage of 25% of wheat alone (WHO report, 1995). HDPE leads to 2% wastage. If HDPE were used our food, cement, sugar etc would increase by 33% (Say 100 is produced, 25 lost. We get 75. If HDPE is used, 75 becomes 100 - 33%). But the SC/STs (75,000) who would lose jobs have shouted "AMBEDKAR KA INSULT HAI!!" They forced the Govt to promulgate the "Jute Control Order". It means that COMPULSORILY jute has to be used 80% of cases.

What would happen if HDPE is used? I refer to Food For All Report (1997)
i) Cheaper Foodgrains for all
ii) More food for poor
iii) Rich would consume more meat (1 kg of chicken = 8 kg of grain equivalent)
iv) Export of foodgrains etc upt $ 1.4b/yr
v) Movement from food to other exotic stuff (Strawberries, Mushrooms, etc) and more exports
vi) Boost to food processing and employment of 300,000
viii) Housing costs come down by 15% (Cement saved)
ix) More water availability (Jute is a water hogger)

lots more...

Get it friends, all these are not happenning because 75,000 day workers are protected under the Valmiki Rojgar Yojana . You argue with them, they raise the bogey of EKALAVYA !! They have bigwigs behind them like VPSingh, RPI, Laloo, Mulayam, Paswaan, Kashiram, etc. Sad, Sad, Sad...

It so happens the they were SC/ST. Even if they were Brahmins it is bad. Protection can cause unintended consequences. They are using Ekalavya and Ambedkar to screw around.

Next time I will tell you an amazing story - How Dalits, Brahmins and Rajputs got together, threw those rascal politicians out and are living in great friendship. Honest

Bye for now.

[Edited by Shringarey on 12-15-2000 at 01:21 PM]

December 15th, 2000, 12:05 PM
Dear Siraj, its just incidental all the services i have are provided by Dalits. Ofcourse i have a lot of Hindu and Muslims & Jains as my friends.

I have no hatred towards Hindus, i am against the system, I am for treating people with dignity. People like Rakhawala your self and other castes hindus think, reservation means substandard. I strongly oppose that, for one simple reason being, i am a product of reservation and i am doing very good in my field.

With metta

December 15th, 2000, 02:40 PM
Dear Dalit,

This is an interesting Point you have raised - that there could be 'late starters'. Just because a person is NOT given opportunities when young, he may not do well initially, but with a little help, he could be on his feet. This I believe is exactly what happenned in your case. Right? I can empathize with you. Though I have not taken reservations, I am a LATE-STARTER too. Basically I was an arse-hole, and I managed to get the best education that India could offer because I got some extra-ordinary help from a kindly person. I S-H-U-D-D-E-R to think what I would have been if that help was NOT Given (at the right time) !! (Glory Be To The Lord!!)

I just wanted to know from your experiences whether you faced any ADDITIONAL hurdles because of your deprivation as compared to an Upper Caste person with the same economic background. Should reservations be economic based? I do not know. I just wanted to know what experiences you had that seriously affected you, which an upper caste person would not have had in the same eco-situation. SANTASINGH, REALDEAL, maybe you can join too.


December 15th, 2000, 03:14 PM
My experience,

The only time I have used reservation, was for getting Engg. seat. My father did not allow me to use reservation to get a job, since he did want his son suffer the way he is now. having said this. Even though I got good marks in my written exams, my internals where always much less then my classmates.

In fact my cousin used wear a thread on his shoulders when he had practical examinations.

I know the pain modern Untouchability, thru my father. as I have said in my earlier posting, he was not allowed to enter the companies computer, just because he is a Dalit.

So, I don't know if reservation based on economic condition is good solution. Once Jagajivan Ram, said as Deputy PM. "Even though I am a Deputy PM, my chaprasi feels superior to me. " I think this statement still hold good in many cases.

I am not saying the situation is not improved. but the result is not expected.

Take for instance the affirmative action in US. it all started in 60's see this difference in the lives of the Blacks.

We need people like Rakhwala to change, then only we have some change in society.

With Metta

December 16th, 2000, 04:24 AM

We see lots of successful dalits here on this discussion. Would u think it would be fair if your children were given an advantage over ours because you come from a favoured caste and we from the so called forward caste.

Defenitly There are poor dalits and then there are poor people in the other castes too, may be the numbers may differ, but dont u think equal opportunity means equal opportunity among them (the have nots) and equal opportunity among us.

One thing we should understand is that only after primary education does the college and job reservation arise. If you see the statistics 85% of the people taking admissions on the basis of reservations in engineering and 92% in medical sciences are not poor at all. There are some members in this forum who have a tale of woes to tell. Theb even I have.

If we are really concerned for our Dalit and non Dalit poor, let us atleast provide them the primaries of education and discuss how it can be done.

Now this reservation policies especially in the high tech engg. and medical sciences is now only being misused, by politicians to a great extent and the rich dalits. The poor dalits and non dalits are where they were..

and no one really wants to talk about them in this forum or any where.

The Real Deal
December 16th, 2000, 10:26 PM
Your question about poor among so called UC is discussed befre in same thread. And we have soulution for them, however when such a large number of people of Backword massed are not geting right judgement for their upliftment then talking about 1% is almost negligible.

And as for your comment ...

no one really wants to talk about them in this forum or any where

-What we are doing here ;)

December 16th, 2000, 11:19 PM
I respect ur sentiments for the have nots, irrespective of the castes.

The one question is reservation a roadmap for the 90 percents on the road and how far has it been successful in the 50 years of Indian independence. After 50 years of failure is reservation a solution at all? How much longer do we test it and don't you think what we need is a more practical and just policy?

My another question is that will u let ur son take advantage of the reservation policy, now that u r at par with us.


The Real Deal
December 17th, 2000, 12:54 AM
As of the question about 50 years of failure of reservation policy, many of you asked. How many government task you can count were successful in last fifty years, reservation is also the idea and implementation of same government. It is not reservation policy which failed to bring upliftment, it was government and administration which failed to implement this effectively.

But I don't say that reservation in its current form is right, it must include some of things we discussed before and it was also under discussion in the name of creamy layer few years ago in politics.

I guess you did not read the thread, pls. read and you will find the answer of your this question, "will u let ur son take advantage of the reservation policy, now that u r at par with us"

[Edited by The Real Deal on 12-17-2000 at 02:57 AM]

December 17th, 2000, 01:25 AM

I am a person who believes that India has done relatively very in the post independence era despite it's short comings. If you have to guage the progress the it depends on what scale u use. U compare with countries of our type of population, our geographical location, and around the same time of independence and not with the developed nations. Time will come for that too.

But that is not the purview of our discussion.

If u can answer my last question directly, because this thread is 15 long.

December 17th, 2000, 08:50 AM
This pertains to the happennings in Beisgaam (literally 22 Villages) in AP. There are Reddy's (FC), few Brahmins and Bhodhenis(BC). Bhodheni literally means "The Bonded One, Slave". One Reddy told me contemptuously that Bhodeni is

Bhodheni = Bho + Dhe + Ni, where,

Bho = Bhhojan (Food)
Dhe = Dhengudu (Sex)
Ni = Nidraa (Sleep)

What he meant was that these people were "animals" interested ONLY in food, sex and sleep and could not understand the "higher things" in life. Unfortunately for him, these "animals" had different ideas. Strange ideas like "equality", "we can thru work overcome our situation", etc. They wanted a way out. They got it - BOMBAY

They started going to Bombay as domestic workers (guddees) - car wash, cooking, washing, etc. A year in Bombay means savings of Rs 15,000. Four years saves Rs 50,000 - a fabulous sum indeed !! A man going to Bombay got the help of those already there - prospering, helping. They started learning driving (trucks), some went to the Gulf. Made money, bought land. And prospered!! They opened schools for their people. Invited Reddy's (FC) to those schools. A Bhodheni, when he visited a Reddy would have to sit on the floor - not any longer - he sits on the chair.

Some politicians did not like this and tried to create problems by dividing the people (The successful ones were named as "ram Bhodheni", the others as "Ravan Bhodheni"). But they saw thru this and drove them away.

Sick of the problems, he tree main castes came together and created a "Karobaar Patra" - the means by which the 22 villages would manage themselves - in effect, a CONSTITUTION. This is what it goes :

1. No discrimination in Public Places across castes
2. No Gender Discrimination. Men will Help Cooking (Really Followed Scrupulously !!)
3. Compulsory Education in Bhodheni Schools
4. Each landed man to pay Rs 20/acre as "Tax" for local welfare
5. No pomp in marriage.
6. Men will be faithful to their wives (Not strictly followed )
7. All love affairs amongst youth are banned.
8. The "Varkaris (Fishermen)" get FIRST right of use to fish in village pond.
9. In return Varkaris have to sell fish at Village-Determined Prices
10. Women are equal to men and can do ALL things men can do EXCEPT growing garlic (There is a belief that growing garlic makes women horny and they have affairs)
11. No Gambbling (Not Followed)

... and a few more. (My photo does not capture it, so I dont know). These were written on Village square Board.

This constitution is AS NOBLE AS Ambedkar's (Indian) and more properly implemented !! As a hall mark of friendship, the Brahmin, Reddy and BhoDheNi put food in each other's mouth publicly. (There are tears in my eyes as I write this)

Have I seen a miracle? I have ! I Have!! I Have!!! Yea Gods, I have !!!


The Real Deal
December 17th, 2000, 11:41 AM
Jay, Its not very diffcult to find out, however, since you do not want to read all thread, here I made you easy, go to thread number 8 and you will find the answer.

Sring, I must admit you are working hard ;)

December 17th, 2000, 05:45 PM
There is a Caste called Mangeshikar - Devottes of Mangesh. There is a caste called Mangeshkar (Children of Dancing Girls in Mangesh temples) - Lower Caste. There is a difference of an 'i' in the spelling. This is exploited by the Upper Castes.

Firstly, the Lower Caste name is referred in a bewildering variety of ways : Mangeshkar, Mangueshkar, Mangeshkhar, Mangeshkare, etc, etc (often 20). This means that when only ONE name is in SC/ST list, the others are left out. A court case commences. An order is issued that all these names are SAME. In that confusion, even the name Mangeshikar (UPPER CASTE) gets included and reservation benefits are grabbed.

There are som many cases as :

1. Phule - gardner (BC) v/s
Phuley/Phuleya - Garden Owner (FC)

2. Chaudhiry - Cleaner of Chouth ie Central Square (BC) V/s
Chaudhary - Tax Collector (FC)

3. Achoot - So Defiled taht he cannot be touched (BC) V/S
Achyut - Sublime, Impossible to touch, GOD (FC)

4. Nakakate - Cut-nosed, humiliated (BC) V/S
Nagakate - Snake-Killer, Courageous (FC)

5. Chindamani - Causes worry to all (BC) V/S
Chintamani - Loved by All (FC)

6. PatNaika - Slave of Patnaik (BC)
PatNaik - Rular of Village (FC)

7. TriVodhi - Thrice Defeated (BC)
TriVedi - Learned in 3 Vedas (FC)

8. Ambavadekar - Sweeper of Goddess Amba (BC)
AmbedKar - Devotee of Goddess Amba (FC)

Infact, Dr. Ambedkar's true name was Ambavadekar. He 'took the name' of his teacher to get ahead. The list goes on and on. I have collected atleast 3000 such pairs.

The problem is Sanskrit - a small change can drastically alter the meaning. eg. in Manu Smriti :

"Hey Bhrigu, for the pleasure of the Bramhand (All Humans) I have created the Saudra (Fruits, tress, grains, birds, animals)


"Hey Bhrigu, for the pleasure of the Bramhan (Brahmin) I have created the Shudra (Dalit).

his pecularity in Sanskrit has been long past noted. Some Scholars like Thomas Morten (Politics of Sanskrit, Vol 1,2) believe that this quality of Sanskrit was misused by the Brahmins. Others, eg Jotiba Phule (Slavery) and Kancha Iliah (Why I am not a Hindu) believe that Sanskrit was PURPOSELY created confusing.


December 19th, 2000, 01:56 AM
Hi Real Deal,

I respect your views and I dont think it is shared by the majority.

If this can be implemented (not only on views) I believe no one would have any opposition in helping the economically downtrodden without any special clasification and fragmenting them.


December 19th, 2000, 02:46 PM
Hello everyone,
This is my first post in here. I started reading this thread and got very interested in it. Unfortunately I couldn't read all of it. So if I am repeating anything here, please do let me know...

OK, now I am dead against any special treatments to anyone based on it's caste. That's a total discrimination..!! How a person less capable, less inteligent and with less IQ can get a better opportunity than thousands and thousands of others? and why? What's the point in putting a pea sized brain in all important positions?? If those Dalits and BCs think they deserve those opportunities then why don't they compete in open market and get it? How can you BCs look at yourself in the mirror? Do you have any self respect? At all?

December 19th, 2000, 03:00 PM

i guess it would be nice if you could read all the posting first, we have made our argument as to why Dalits need special treatment. And how you can be involved in removing that special treatment.

Once again i will repeat, reservation, when made into a law was there for just 10 years, Its unfortunate that it was not implemented in true sense. that's why, we are still having reservation.

Don't blame Dalits for existence reservation, you have to blame the ruling class for reservation.

We are availing reservation, just because its there.

If you have the guts, please remove it from the constitution. And if you want to remove reservation constitutionally, i am with you.

With metta

December 19th, 2000, 04:39 PM

Did you know that whole Markets have sprung up, giving 'Dalit Status' to upper castes? The price of a certificate varies from Rs 5000 in rural India to Rs 40000 in Bombay. This is done by means of the 'adoption' route.

In case you want to be 'adopted' by a backward class, you contact a "Kaasht Dalal". He arranges for a poor backward to legally adopt you, and then you change your name to what it originally was. The poor man is paid Rs 200, the Magistrate 25%. Another 25% to other officials - rest is profit. I know of a man who had 6 children. Rather than creating certificates for all of them, he got HIMSELF adopted at 1/6th the cost! A 50 year guy is the adopted 'son' of an 18 yesr lad !! My Gawd!!! My driver wanted a job with the Govt. The man told him " Naam badlo, Ram banao" - but he was too adamant and proud to do it.

Friends, during this capitalist era, these fellas have gone bold. They give ads like this "Your Future is in your Past. We will help yoiu change your past" OR "Apna bhavishya ujwalit banana hai to itihaas kalankit banao" (if you want to brighten your future, blacken your past). There is the Veerappan Itihaas Manch in TN which is very active (not to be confused with the Brigand Veerappan - this is another rascal)

Stop This - Its creating deeeeep problems !!!


The Real Deal
December 20th, 2000, 01:36 PM

You have proved this that reservation is not implemented properly and those who were supposed to get benefit were denied in many ways, like even people were out there, official claim that they did not find candidate and keep unifilled those post, why because the admin was fully always in hand of BS people.

By nexus of BS Theory follower, they even started giving benefit of the reservation system to those who were not supposed to get, I myself have couple of example and in couple of cases they got punishment by court. Well you already have given this example here.

If reservation theory changed and made based on economy, what is the gaurantee that it will be implemented and right people will get benefited. Economically backword will never be able to get a certificate for thir real status and people having money will manage all certification required. Who will be benefited most, the strong lobby ;)

Most people come from a background and know all about the hardship but as soon as get money forget and also suggest other to forget those poor, such people even forget thir parents backhome, success ke nase mein choor kanhee sab kuch na ho jaye chaknachoor.

December 20th, 2000, 02:12 PM

There is a belief that any special rights create hatred and agitation. We LOVE people whom we help, hate those whom we injure. Is the same thing happenning in Reservations?

1. I once knew a worker working for Mahindra and befriended him. He was obsolete because of machines and his job was protected. So he would go and play cards in office. I once asked him whether he was morally right. He replied "Saaley yeh factory malik ********* hain!!".

2. I know a guy living in a posh flat in Bombay and paying only Rs 60 as rent against a Market rent of Rs 12000 (Rent Control Act). He said "These landlords are bastards. They charge whatever prices they want!!"

3. During a riot/looting in Avadh, I saw a bunch of people entering a shop and looting it. One man who took a radio said "These traders are all cheats - they make money by looting people!!"

4. In Canada (Prince Edwards Island), fisherman are given a dole. One man refused to take it. The others got A-N-G-R-Y. Who does he THINK he is!!"

Basically, we HATE PEOPLE WHOM WE HAVE INJURED. We cannot accept free rides as it hurts our pride. Rather we need to create a great Myth about it - how the other person is hate-worthy.

Is this same thing happenning in Dalits? Do SC/ST candidates who get in special positions HAVE TO Compulsorily hate Upper Caste - lest they may not see themselves in Mirror? Is the hate of Upper Caste really a form of Self-Hate, to assuage the feelings of 'Special Provisions?'. Is it a balm to assuage feelings of guilt? Do they COMPULSORILY HAVE TO shout and hate and cry?

I don't know - but I Wonder.


The Real Deal
December 20th, 2000, 02:46 PM
As soon as you said upper caste, their is hate, not just backword people but any decent guy will oppose and hate a person who think that he is upper than other human, specially who, his likes and his forefathers have severally torucher poor people a lot.

It is mentality which is cause of hate not people, nobody will hate Gandhi or Amte becuse they realised people are equal and same, no upper, no lower.

I too wonder how people create this mentality that they are UPPER ;) than other.

Does caste system create hatred within Backword and so called Upper caste[/b]

[Edited by The Real Deal on 12-20-2000 at 04:54 PM]

December 20th, 2000, 05:48 PM
Okay echarchans,

I feel this thread needs to be closed simply because of its length and inconvenience to go back and forth within the thread.

One user pointed out to me via email that it was impossible to go through the entire thread which is already 15 pages long. If you think of it, you also will find it really hard to go back to a specific post within this huge thread and then formulate your reply. Not that it cannot be done, but just that it is inconvenient.

Also this thread was started about Crime against Dalits and it has spawned to so many sub topics. The topic was really stimulating and quite good. I appreciate all of you who voiced your opinions. But wait this is not the end of this thread. I have already made a thread Crime Against Dalits in India - 2 (http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=348) to continue this topic.

Many users gave diverse views and echarchans like Shringarey have been informing about various criminal acts against Dalits. This is all very good for bringing about awareness.

I hope you will agree with my view and continue your discussions on separate topic specific threads as you deem fit.

Thank you

[Edited by echarcha on 12-20-2000 at 07:52 PM]