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bahuram
May 4th, 2001, 09:08 AM
You all talk of IITs. You know that they practise untouchability? I am a vanavasi from Tripura. I got 80% in 12 std. I should have got in IIT - all my teachers say so. I got in IITM only in 3rd attempt because of untouchability. Here is how :

1) IITs hvae only 3% SC/ST candidates against 22.5% per constitution.
2) All Dalits have to go for 1 year 'preparatory corse'. This only for Dalits and is discrimination.
3) IITs have no Dalits on faculty.
4) Only Dalits employed by IITs are Scavengers
5) Reservation cut-off is 2/3rds and NOT down-to-zero marks.
6) Most Dalits are MADE to fail and ASKED to leave under unfair treatment meted.
7) A Brahmin in Metalurgical can get a Computer job - not given to Dalit in Metalurgical.
8) Dalit is asked to take 22 credits instead of 28 for Brahmins saying - you are weak. But the total credits remain same!! So Dalit takes 6 years to pass against 4 yrs by Brahman (over and above 1 extra yr for preparatory).
9) Compulsory passing of Dalits in every internal exam as per Mandal Committee is not followed. (Down to Zero)
10) Dalits not given representations in sports and debates in hostel actrivities.
11) Dalits have no reservations in alumni association.

This is nothing but Brahminical domination. (As Proof, IITM has one 'Kanchi Kamakoti Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Endowment Award' under its various financial aid schemes) Infact, IIT is called Iyer-Iyenger Inst of Tech !!!!


With metta

Bahuram

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 09:14 AM
:rolleyes:

Well, IMO .....................

never mind. whats the point ??

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 09:18 AM
I should have got in IIT - all my teachers say so.

I should have been the president of the US....my grandma says so.

I got 80% in 12 std
With those kinda marks, without reservation, you won't even get admission in a good BSc college in delhi. Trust me, 80% is average...very average.

1) IITs hvae only 3% SC/ST candidates against 22.5% per constitution.
Only 3% meet the bare minimum standards required to get in...


.
.
.
I can go on and on...but I'll let others tackle the remaining points...

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 09:19 AM
With metta

metta boleto ?????????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Senorita
May 4th, 2001, 09:26 AM
ABEY BAHURAAM TU SINGLERAAM BHI NAHIN HAI!!!!!!!!!!!

Think like a jamadaar and you'll always be one!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rahul
May 4th, 2001, 09:27 AM
Bhai logo,

Bahut pahle is site per ek banda tha wo bhi yehi bolta tha, with Metta, its a way those dalit greet to the upper cast :D

Bhai Dalit Bahu (ke) ram,
1) IITs hvae only 3% SC/ST candidates against 22.5% per constitution.

Can you please answer me only one thing, why dont you people ever asking about reservation in Army, where you'll have a fear to get killed by enemy army ??

Kal ko tum aakar hamare khane me se bhi 50% ka reservation maangne lag jana, thik he.

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
You all talk of IITs. You know that they practise untouchability? I am a vanavasi from Tripura. I got 80% in 12 std. I should have got in IIT - all my teachers say so. I got in IITM only in 3rd attempt because of untouchability. Here is how :

1) IITs hvae only 3% SC/ST candidates against 22.5% per constitution.

Even the 3% shouldn't be there, if you dont want to be considered untouchable come along with others, those who are considered to be in open category.

2) All Dalits have to go for 1 year 'preparatory corse'. This only for Dalits and is discrimination.

This is because dalits like you are of lower capabilities, you have to learn for one year to come to a level where you can at least understand what your prof is saying, leave aside study it.

3) IITs have no Dalits on faculty.

show me the stats and appt letters.

4) Only Dalits employed by IITs are Scavengers

considered contrary to above allegation and therefore declared redundant.

5) Reservation cut-off is 2/3rds and NOT down-to-zero marks.

You want it down to zero? outrageous, a new caste should emerge. you wont be considered an untouchable you should will be considered an alien.

6) Most Dalits are MADE to fail and ASKED to leave under unfair treatment meted.

vah vah vah kya observation hai.

7) A Brahmin in Metalurgical can get a Computer job - not given to Dalit in Metalurgical.

why dont e charcha people keep a graphic showing middle finger?

8) Dalit is asked to take 22 credits instead of 28 for Brahmins saying - you are weak. But the total credits remain same!! So Dalit takes 6 years to pass against 4 yrs by Brahman (over and above 1 extra yr for preparatory).

considering that you cannot even understand the concepts, that you pass at all is much better than you deserve.

9) Compulsory passing of Dalits in every internal exam as per Mandal Committee is not followed. (Down to Zero)

mandal committee? complusory passing? i suggest we simply distribute IIT degrees to 'dalits' without any examinations at all, because YOU ARE AN UNTOUCHABLE.

10) Dalits not given representations in sports and debates in hostel actrivities.

who stopped you?

11) Dalits have no reservations in alumni association.

reservation in alumni? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is nothing but Brahminical domination. (As Proof, IITM has one 'Kanchi Kamakoti Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Endowment Award' under its various financial aid schemes) Infact, IIT is called Iyer-Iyenger Inst of Tech !!!!


With metta

Bahuram

Do you also demand reservation to post messages in this thread for the dalits? how much do you want?

Mr. admin Please consider this request of this untouchable.

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 09:31 AM
Bhaiyon aur unkee moo bolee behanon,

Why waste your time ?? Lets sing a song instead ..

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 09:37 AM
song mein 22.5% reservation hai bhaiyya, vo part to bahuram hi gayenge

Quantum
May 4th, 2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
2) All Dalits have to go for 1 year 'preparatory corse'. This only for Dalits and is discrimination.

If they don't undergo this, they'll all fail.

3) IITs have no Dalits on faculty.

That's a BIG lie. There are quota people on the faculty. (How competent they are is everyone's guess.

4) Only Dalits employed by IITs are Scavengers

Another lie.

5) Reservation cut-off is 2/3rds and NOT down-to-zero marks.

So you wanna get in with a 0 !! That would be great !! I strongly agree with this. You don't deserve to work at all and must get in with a zero.

6) Most Dalits are MADE to fail and ASKED to leave under unfair treatment meted.

Nonsense. The work load in the IITs is very heavy. People have only one choice: to work smart and not hard. Working hard won't help there... you need the best-quality brain.

7) A Brahmin in Metalurgical can get a Computer job - not given to Dalit in Metalurgical.

Jobs are offered by private companies which look for talent. They won't care what your background is. If you are good, they'll hire you. If you aren't, they won't.

BTW, if a quota can't get a computer job, why doesn't he go for a metallurgical job? That's what his coursework is supposed to prepare him for... What are you crying about?

9) Compulsory passing of Dalits in every internal exam as per Mandal Committee is not followed. (Down to Zero)

So, even if you fail, you want to pass for free.

10) Dalits not given representations in sports and debates in hostel actrivities.
11) Dalits have no reservations in alumni association.

Haha!! :D


This is nothing but Brahminical domination. (As Proof, IITM has one 'Kanchi Kamakoti Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Endowment Award' under its various financial aid schemes)

Ask some rich Dalit to shell out some money for a similar award.

Infact, IIT is called Iyer-Iyenger Inst of Tech !!!!

This is the BIGGEST bullshit. There are a large number of Guptas, Gargs and Agarwals. There are a large numbr of Thakurs. There are Biharis. There are Christians, and Muslims from all states. And these guys are the cream of India. The best brains from everywhere.

IIT is Indian Institute of Technology. If you are the best in India, you will get in. Stop crying and work hard. You should be ashamed of asking to get in with a zero.

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 10:07 AM
chhodo yarr aise logo ke sath bahut bakwass ho gayee...

Xandu
May 4th, 2001, 10:14 AM
too bad VP Singh was booted out

btw, you stink

bahuram
May 4th, 2001, 10:26 AM
Xandu, RisingSun, Big-G, Quantum, Smelli-Finger and others,

1. First of all, we never asked for reservations - we asked for REPRESENTATIONS.
2. 22.5% is enshrined in the constitution as created by Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar (MHSRIP). Even Ram Jethmalani called it 'the greatest piece of literature'.
3. India belongs to all of us. Since we constitute 22.5% of India, we OWN 22.5% of everything. That is why Mandal proposed a down-to-zero rule based on unbiased grading. We just want 22.5% of all seats in IITs to go to Dalits and Vanavasis instead of 3%. What is wrong with that? Is it fair the Brahmins (2%) eat 70% of seats while SC/ST (22.5%) are given 3% crumbs? Is it fair? We are only asking for equality. That is all.
4. We have been harrassed for 5000 years by you people. Please don't harrass us more. Dr. Ambedkar (MHSRIP) put special provisions in constitution for preventing harrassment. I am just asking that IITs implement the provisions. What is wrong with that?
5. You used 'purity' to usurp everything in the past, today you use 'merit' . That is all. Just as you argued that only Brahmins had purity, so you argue today that only Brahmins have brains/merit. That is a lie.


With metta (Buddhist greeting meaning tender love)

BahuRam

Xandu
May 4th, 2001, 10:31 AM
this guy is a serious nutcase :D

laal_langot
May 4th, 2001, 10:33 AM
Sunti ho BAHU .......metta naheen tumhaare unka naam mehta hai.....

Bahu chupp karr ke kadchhi chalao bachhon ko sulao aur pati ka hilao naheen to ghaaslate ki vadaulat tum LATE ho jayogi....

Representation plate mein rakh ke garnish karr ke de dein???

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 10:43 AM
First of all U STUPID FULL, U SCUMBAG, U GOBAR...

Originally posted by bahuram
Xandu, RisingSun, Big-G, Quantum, Smelli-Finger and others,

1. First of all, we never asked for reservations - we asked for REPRESENTATIONS.

Representations? define please, where representations? what representations?

2. 22.5% is enshrined in the constitution as created by Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar (MHSRIP). Even Ram Jethmalani called it 'the greatest piece of literature'.

Even Babasaheb had asked the reservations to last not more than 10 yrs after constitution, the greatest piece of literature, came into being. But the politicians have always extended them just for the dalit votebank. And stupid ignoramuses like you have followed them blindly ever since.

3. India belongs to all of us. Since we constitute 22.5% of India, we OWN 22.5% of everything. That is why Mandal proposed a down-to-zero rule based on unbiased grading. We just want 22.5% of all seats in IITs to go to Dalits and Vanavasis instead of 3%. What is wrong with that? Is it fair the Brahmins (2%) eat 70% of seats while SC/ST (22.5%) are given 3% crumbs? Is it fair? We are only asking for equality. That is all.

You own 22.5% of my motherland? you bastard, how come your hands didn't fall of when you typed this?

you fool you want equality, then come out into open compete with others why ask for zero marks passing, pass only if you 50% marks like others.

4. We have been harrassed for 5000 years by you people. Please don't harrass us more. Dr. Ambedkar (MHSRIP) put special provisions in constitution for preventing harrassment. I am just asking that IITs implement the provisions. What is wrong with that?

Wrong thing is that if those provisions are implemented, IITs will pass out scums like you.

5. You used 'purity' to usurp everything in the past, today you use 'merit' . That is all. Just as you argued that only Brahmins had purity, so you argue today that only Brahmins have brains/merit. That is a lie.

now if things come to head, chal mai bolta hoon, even at that time we were the purest and even now we are the most brilliant. abey, if you have merit/brains why ask for reservations in IIT, why ask for zero marks passing.

With metta (Buddhist greeting meaning tender love)

BahuRam

tell me frankly, kya aapko aisa nahi lagta ki aapko reservations le ke jeete jeete sharam se mar jaana chahiye, that is what separates you from us right now, other wise are we any different? reservations prove beyond doubt that you were untouchables not only that but that YOU WANT TO REMAIN THE SAME. You do not want to come out into open.

echarcha
May 4th, 2001, 10:56 AM
Welcome to eCharcha.Com

WHat you have stated is your experience and might be very true. Not to discurage you, but there have been discussions on the topic of reservations before on eCharcha. I would suggest you to have a look at the folllowing threads for reference.


http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=227 and

http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=348

And to all others,

Lets not start getting emotional and bash a new user just for the heck of it. I would rather see a argumentative reply than just "you are this and they are that" type of replies. Thanks...

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 11:45 AM
if you mean the first line i have written, then I would like to tell you whoever says he owns 22.5% of my motherland deserves to be pointed at and said things. NOBODY CAN OWN A PART OF MY COUNTRY.

bahuram
May 4th, 2001, 11:57 AM
Thank you echarcha,

When the Brits were in India, the same issue was being discussed about entrance to IAS. Why? Because Indians could not initially make it to IAS. Why? Because THERE WERE FEW ENGLISH SCHOOLS IN INDIA. If Indians did not know English, how can they pass IAS? But Brits started talking about 'merit'. Once English schools came to India, Indians joined IAS in droves.

Most Upper Castes go to posh schools. We go to schools that simply don't work. See the analogy? You want everything on merit? Fine. But then ensure equality in SCHOOLS. Schools in Upper Caste localities are better run, our schools are not run at all. BECAUSE you are unable/unwilling to give us schools, we need down-to-zero rule. Get it? If we have equal schooling facilities, we will NOT need that reservation. But NO - Brahmins are scared that if we get good schools, very few Brahmins get in.

The analogy goes further. We had no access to Sanskrit because we were impure. We were impure because we did not know Sanskrit. Makes Sense? Similarly today, we are not that educated because we have poor schools. We are given poor schools because we 'dont need education'. To break this cycle we need Reservations.

BahuRam

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 12:00 PM
I had 19 people who belonged to SC/ST out of 53 in my class. out of 49 about 45 were more or less same thoughout 1st standard to tenth. later on we separated, i wont tell how many of them have reached a point were they can post a simple e-mail in order that you wont get humiliated.

echarcha
May 4th, 2001, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by bahuram
Most Upper Castes go to posh schools. We go to schools that simply don't work. See the analogy? You want everything on merit? Fine. But then ensure equality in SCHOOLS. Schools in Upper Caste localities are better run, our schools are not run at all. BECAUSE you are unable/unwilling to give us schools, we need down-to-zero rule. Get it? If we have equal schooling facilities, we will NOT need that reservation. But NO - Brahmins are scared that if we get good schools, very few Brahmins get in.



Even in a city like Mumbai, there are badly run and much in need of resources schools. You cannot expect that government will grant you schools just like that. India does not have the resources to supply good schools to all, and whatever little we have is used up by corrupt politicians.

Tell me how many times have you or or for that matter anyone voted on basis of "education policies" of a candidate. When it comes to voting, people always make choices based on religion or caste within a religion or religious issues like the Ram Mandir - Babri Masjid issue.


The analogy goes further. We had no access to Sanskrit because we were impure. We were impure because we did not know Sanskrit. Makes Sense? Similarly today, we are not that educated because we have poor schools. We are given poor schools because we 'dont need education'. To break this cycle we need Reservations.


Again, if you notice the pattern of education - atleast in Maharashtra - Sanskrit is in the standard 10th syllabus which students take on as way to score sure marks in the exams. The sad thing is that Sanskrit is looked upon in schools as something to "memorise and dump on the papers in exams to get good marks"

Even today, whether you know Sanskrit or not makes no difference while going for higher education. Infact, recently a Sanskrit expert expressed his sadness that Sanskrit was not being taught in a easy to learn format in schools. There was too much stress on grammar and language structure rules.

Belive me, though I am from Mumbai and had access to good schools, I cannot speak Sanskrit nor has it helped me in anyway in my career.

Quantum
May 4th, 2001, 12:11 PM
OK. You want 22.5% reservations. Go protest in front of the Indian Parliament in New Delhi.

Don't bore us. Get to the chorus!!

Enough of this thread.

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 12:12 PM
moreover this cycle, as bahuram says, cannot be broken by keeping reservations. reservations have become a vicious circle.

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 12:17 PM
Hey Bahuram,

Do you want to know of some role reversals. I will give some nice ones.

I lost my medical seat by 1 mark to a SC/ST. Does that mean I should start bashing all of you around. I have plenty of examples. If you wish to be enlightened.... spread the word and I am sure plenty will spring up!

Well I don't and I didn't. I decided to look on the positive side. I went on complete my MS in Microbiology and Biotechnology form one India's finest centers for these studies. (It's a different thing that I do not pursue it anymore)

I would suggest rather than writing all these long complaints, go ahead and study, so that when you get into premier institutes at you will be capable of facing other "Brahmins"

My philosophy is if you think you are capable, work hard and you will achieve it. Don't blame others for your shortcomings.

Frankly all you SC/ST cry fowl every time somebody takes away your undeserving seat. But you do not want anybody else to cry fowl if you take away a seat from a very deserving candidate. Grow up yaar!!!!!!!!!!!!

gandesh
May 4th, 2001, 12:19 PM
agree with bahuram.... they form 22% of population so they own 22% of everything..... so even though i am from the so called "upper class" u have my sympathies bahuram.... :)

bahuram
May 4th, 2001, 12:19 PM
RisingSun,


I had 19 people who belonged to SC/ST out of 53 in my class. out of 49 about 45 were more or less same thoughout 1st standard to tenth. later on we separated, i wont tell how many of them have reached a point were they can post a simple e-mail in order that you wont get humiliated.


What is there to be humiliated about? Truth is important. It has been observed that if a SC/ST candidate and a Brahmin are given the SAME educational facilities, the Brahmin boy usually (tho not always) does better. It is important to explain this phenomena.

This is because of 'family culture'. Sir, you are surely a clever feloow, probably in S/W. But let us both be given the SAME course in 'practical exploration of the Amazon Valley' - and I would probably (not necessarily) beat you. Why? Because I come from a family of forest dwellers, you I think are from a city. The discussions at home are different and I am more attuned because of my 'family history' in that field.

Since most upper caste children come from families that are educated, while most SC/STs come from illiterate parents (because of past denials/horrors), there would be a difference. It is like that there are two trees, one tall, one just growing. The young one is unable to grow in the older ones shade because older one grabs the sun. Saying we both have 'same resources' is not enough. Once the younger one comes up, then they can compete. We were not allowed to come up. That is the problem.

It is similar to when Englis was introduced in India by the Brits. At first we were not good. It took 3 generations for us to pick it up.

It appears that a family requires 3 (ie 3 x 20 yrs per generation = 60 yrs) generations before it can come up to level. That is ALL we ask for 250 generations of slavery (5000 yrs/20 yrs per generation). Simple. Since all Dalits do not get reservations at a time (only 10% do), it means that we need reservations for another 60 yrs/0.1 = 600 years. That is ALL we ask. We want just 5 villages. But like Duryodhan are you going to be mean and deny us that?


Bahuram

Xandu
May 4th, 2001, 12:26 PM
you have bad facilities in schools because of reservation

in public schools, due to reservation teacher posts are unfilled since no qualified teacher is available under the reserved category. do you see where your vicious cycle starts now??

Perfectionist
May 4th, 2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by bahuram
Thank you echarcha,

When the Brits were in India, the same issue was being discussed about entrance to IAS. Why? Because Indians could not initially make it to IAS. Why? Because THERE WERE FEW ENGLISH SCHOOLS IN INDIA. If Indians did not know English, how can they pass IAS? But Brits started talking about 'merit'. Once English schools came to India, Indians joined IAS in droves.

Most Upper Castes go to posh schools. We go to schools that simply don't work. See the analogy? You want everything on merit? Fine. But then ensure equality in SCHOOLS. Schools in Upper Caste localities are better run, our schools are not run at all. BECAUSE you are unable/unwilling to give us schools, we need down-to-zero rule. Get it? If we have equal schooling facilities, we will NOT need that reservation. But NO - Brahmins are scared that if we get good schools, very few Brahmins get in.

The analogy goes further. We had no access to Sanskrit because we were impure. We were impure because we did not know Sanskrit. Makes Sense? Similarly today, we are not that educated because we have poor schools. We are given poor schools because we 'dont need education'. To break this cycle we need Reservations.

BahuRam

Bahuram bhai,
I will not say that there is not a single soul who is not biased. But they are on both side. And believe me, higher caste people do not consider caste anymore. Now if you say the schools were not good, that does not give one right for reservation. And then nearly all schools ate like that. Do you think that by putting a tie on someone can be great? If you look at results of board exams in any state, no less number of students come Govt schools. And I thik yoou are only refering to them. And are not students from general class in those schools? What about the sc/st people who come from rich families? Why they can not get marks? It is not that they can not. I beleive everybody has got brain. But they do no want to use it. There attitude hss become, why to work hard? We have reservation and it is our right. Remember, Ambedkar in past and Our Hon. President Mr. K R Narayanan made it big not because of reservation but b'cause of their hard work. Gyani Jail Singh was a mere 5th pass lad from a poor family. But he made it big by his hard work. Unfortunately our (rather ur)leaders want votes and they will lose them the day dalits became independent. That is why they want you people to depend on reservation. And the list is remaining small. But I want to see my dear freind that every person in India do the hard work and get the result. My best freind in college took three years as a number of others in general to get admition when he coould have easily got in first attempt by using OBC quota. He was quite a talented guy. He did not used reservation as his father was a govt servant. And despite his very obvious surname nobody ever thought of him as backward or dalit. Reason: He never believed he is backward or dalit. He was loved by all & he got a job ahead of a number of guys from upper class and posh backgroud. Reason: He was better than them, and it was well recognised.

Remember: hatred is your worst enemy. You spend your time and energy for dstroying someone instead of building yourself. That is what dalits/backward classes of today are doing. Hope you got my point.

Jai Hind.
P

risingsun
May 4th, 2001, 12:31 PM
dont brag about families mr. bahuram.
first let me tell you what is humiliating. we were in the same school same class as u said should be. but look here i am and tell you what 4 of those 19 could get admissions into engineering colleges and i distinctly remember the highest percentage amongst them was 84. none of them could land a job since they could not clear tests taken by the companies.

talking about family culture, mr. bahuram you should not compare yourself with others before you know anything about them, okay. I lost my father when i was just 7 years old. due to bad financial situation mom had to work. she couldn't pay attention to me as happens with all working mothers. i have struggled to get where i am today. fight me in any damn thing you say and i will beat you. if you want to know family history, i am the first engineer in my khandaan, before me my whole family had only 3 graduates, out of which one was my father and others were my faroff relatives. faroff i say because they were my uncles who stayed quite far and we could not even visit them because we could not afford to.

dont cry over what has already happened bahuram, GET UP face the truth, come up on your own. thats what babasaheb had said. really if you people go begging for reservations like this, his life would be wasted.

Rahul
May 4th, 2001, 12:37 PM
Great reply Perfectionist

Perfectionist
May 4th, 2001, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by bahuram
RisingSun,


I had 19 people who belonged to SC/ST out of 53 in my class. out of 49 about 45 were more or less same thoughout 1st standard to tenth. later on we separated, i wont tell how many of them have reached a point were they can post a simple e-mail in order that you wont get humiliated.


What is there to be humiliated about? Truth is important. It has been observed that if a SC/ST candidate and a Brahmin are given the SAME educational facilities, the Brahmin boy usually (tho not always) does better. It is important to explain this phenomena.

This is because of 'family culture'. Sir, you are surely a clever feloow, probably in S/W. But let us both be given the SAME course in 'practical exploration of the Amazon Valley' - and I would probably (not necessarily) beat you. Why? Because I come from a family of forest dwellers, you I think are from a city. The discussions at home are different and I am more attuned because of my 'family history' in that field.

Since most upper caste children come from families that are educated, while most SC/STs come from illiterate parents (because of past denials/horrors), there would be a difference. It is like that there are two trees, one tall, one just growing. The young one is unable to grow in the older ones shade because older one grabs the sun. Saying we both have 'same resources' is not enough. Once the younger one comes up, then they can compete. We were not allowed to come up. That is the problem.

It is similar to when Englis was introduced in India by the Brits. At first we were not good. It took 3 generations for us to pick it up.

It appears that a family requires 3 (ie 3 x 20 yrs per generation = 60 yrs) generations before it can come up to level. That is ALL we ask for 250 generations of slavery (5000 yrs/20 yrs per generation). Simple. Since all Dalits do not get reservations at a time (only 10% do), it means that we need reservations for another 60 yrs/0.1 = 600 years. That is ALL we ask. We want just 5 villages. But like Duryodhan are you going to be mean and deny us that?


Bahuram

Bahura bhai,
Once again, parents of a lot of us guys cme from village background where their parents were illiterate farmers. If the parent is not educated, they may not guide you but still can not prevent you from excelling in chosen subject. I know of a person from very low caste who came from our village. His parents used to come to our house for help as they were very poor and not to say illiterate. But he went to school and against all odds he studied. He went to university and pulled rickshaw to meet his ends. He never gave up hard work. And it was long before mandal, when for reserved category only 33% concession was there(as per the prescription ofDr. Ambedkar, he got a job with one of our reputed banks. He is today at the same level as my father though he was junior to him. We all respect him. But his sons are not as hard working. They are studying in good schools but not giving good results. Do you say that is fault of us from higher class? Or they shall be given reservation b'cause they are from low class. Think about it. I know several such cases as we have a lot of friends from SC\ST's and have very good relations at family level. As Super girl has said, do not blame others, keep on doing hard work. You will make it.
P

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 12:43 PM
Sun,

I couldn't agree with you more.

It is only when you learn and get up from a fall and rise from difficult circumstances, does your true strength come forward.

Your impression is further strenghthened and people respect you more - if you get on with your life and do not crib about difficult time.

All the best! :)

Got it, Bahuram? Learn something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 12:54 PM
. And believe me, higher caste people do not consider caste anymore.

Perfectionist...get real !! Why exactly when people have to get their offsprings married, they hunt around for not only the exact caste match, but even sub-caste, gotra etc ?? Casteism is still there, maybe not as vicious and prominent.

I support reservations, 'cos giving equal opportunities to 'unequals' is not what I call fair play. What I hate is the way, the reserved castes keep cribbing inspite of getting what they wanted.
Bahuram, reservations can get you inside the college, but after that how you fare depends on your own steam. Don't expect reservations to carry you, in velvety palm throughout your life. And stop being so paranoid. The higher caste lecturer of your college might not choose you as his daughter's suitor, but at the same time, take it from me, he won't fail you just cos you belong to the lower caste. You pass or fail, depending upon how you perform in your exam. YOu performance depends on the effort you put in, and how well you know the subject. Most of you might not have the same grasping skills that a 'higher-caste-public-school-educated' might have...that's the reason why, you are put through some kinda foundation or preperatory classes.

Have faith in the system. This is the same system that has given you an edge over the others by giving you reservations.

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 12:57 PM
Thanks, P

Here is another inspiring life story

We are Gujju Nagar Brahmins - descendents of Kashmiri Brahmins

But my grandfather was never well off. Due to this he used to work in Bombay while my dad had to stay with his grandmom in a small town in Gujarat. My Dad had a bad stuttering problem, went to substandardschools and was always lacking good edcuational materials.

But he (my dad) was determined and very very intelligent. He overcame all that and went to complete his Ph.D in economics and statistics from a IIM. He did not have the privilege to go to good schools. But he made it.

Right now he at the top, very respected and vists IIMs as a Visiting Prof.

His friends came from a similar backgrounds and they are equally well off today.

So, just because you have a under privileged childhood does not you have to give up and wallow in self pity.

It is all dependent on your outlook of life. If it sucks, you will fail to go anywhere even if everything is handed to you on a platter.

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 01:03 PM
hey Bahuram....what is it like to live in the jungles?? I am seriously curious.

Do you guys still have to kill your food before eating it, and are immune to the bites of poisonous snakes and all? Please share some of your experiences.

Also, how close is the hindi film picturisation of the jungle people to the real thing?? I mean, they show those Kabilaas with their sardaars, and lotsa people wearing bamboo strips, dancing to Jhinga-laalaa. How true is it???

Rahul
May 4th, 2001, 01:21 PM
Dancing to Jhinga-laalaa :D:D

Picture this :D:D

Hey is there any IITians over here, share there experience with Dalits ;) in IIT.

gandesh
May 4th, 2001, 01:24 PM
super girl kudos to ur grandpa...

now back to the point.... they form 22% of population... i.e. twice the percentage of colored population in US (12%)... and that is why they should have a 22% share of things.... they are not demanding anything unjust there.... a country belongs to its people equally n thus it is their right to have 22% reservation.... but what should be done is that after a person has got a job through reservation his children should be upgraded from SC/ST to non-reserved as they did not suffer now... this way over a period of time their percentage will dwindle down from 22% to 0% and no more reservations would be needed... that is what is needed... they need reservations now but not forever.... btw this is exactly what B.R. Ambedkar had in mind too.... :)

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 01:31 PM
Thanks! Actually I was talking about my dad. I am sorry if my post was not clear. oops!

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 01:34 PM
Nice point, Gandesh

So after some X years we won't have people who will require reservation!

whoo whoo!!!!

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 01:38 PM
Rahul... :D :D Have you heard the "Jhingalaalaa till death" joke??


Super Girl:
whoo whoo

????? I thought it was ... "up...up...away"

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 01:41 PM
ROFLMAO @ Jhinga Laala . First good laugh I have had in days ...

So Bahuram wearing those grass skirts, with face paint, and spear in hand dancing to Jhinga Laala .. :D :D

Tch tch .. the stereotypes .. when will it end ??

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 01:43 PM
Big G,

It is pronounced as -

woo hooooooo!! and you stand up and throw your hands up in the air!!!!

An exclamation of jubiliation, you know ;)

laal_langot
May 4th, 2001, 01:44 PM
BG agar away hi bhagaana hai then why to get it UP AND UP???waise jhinga lala mein bhi are there reservations according to what sub clan you come from??like the sardaar ki family sings jhinga lala habala gabulu...the next most important sub clan beats the drum and the lowest of them all has to bring the leaves that everyone ties around their waists???

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 01:53 PM
Smelly:
Tch tch .. the stereotypes .. when will it end ??

:D I know...have you ever noticed, in almost all hindi movies there are four classes of people, which are always happy, and always singing. Machhuarey (fishermen) , Banjarey, Kabeelay waaley aur Mazdoor. These fockers are always happy, always dancing, and always saving people from drowning... :D :D

Red Underwear Pai-saab:
and the lowest of them all has to bring the leaves that everyone ties around their waists???

:D :D Out of these leaves, 22% of the best and the biggest ones (e.g. banana, coconut etc) are reserved for the lower castes. Magar wahaan bhi saalaa, they keep cribbing, "Merey ko phata hua patta diya hai, kyon main lower caste hoon"......."Merey pattey mein laal cheetiyaan (red ants) daal key dee hain, kyon my reserved category ka hoon"

AdiDravida
May 4th, 2001, 01:55 PM
IITs: Doing Manu Proud
academic terrorism, casteism go unnoticed

I would like you guys to read this wonderful article in www.ambedkar.org

http://www.ambedkar.org/research/IITs.htm

Nandanar, a dalit rebel-activist of the bhakti period, sought access to the Shivaloganadar temple in Tiruppungur and the Nataraja temple in Chidambaram, to which the 'untouchable' Pulaiyars provided hereditary services (supplying leather for percussion instruments). For this, the brahman clergy derided him. The Tamil saivite tradition went on to appropriate the political resistance of Nandanar in the great hindu habit of 'assimilation'. In Sekkizhar's Peiryapuranam, a 12th century saivite hagiography, the dalit martyr is made to undergo a 'conversion' - he gains access to worship only after his caste-oppressed pulaiya body is purified' by the sacrificial fire, and lo! he then emerges as a brahman sage - tuft, caste thread and all. Siva is shown to accept the dalit after he undergoes a trial-by-fire. In reality, Nandanar was burnt to death. Incinerated. Today, many dalit students at the Indian Institutes of Technology have to survive a 'Preparatory Course' fire and come out unscathed if they have to do BTech. Not much has changed. The dalits fought for temple-entry; today they fight for entry into IITs - temples of technology.

The IITs, like the peethas of Adi Shankara, are established in different parts of A-k-h-a-n-d Bharat - even Guwahati has one (though the Kaladi revivalist would not have reckoned with hindu colonialism in the northeastern belt). The brahmans zealously guard both these institutions. They would not have a dalit as Shankaracharya. 'Purity' has to be maintained. Nor do they want a dalit instructor at an IIT. 'Merit' cannot be compromised. The IITs are quite like the romanticised gurukulas/ vedic pathasalas where most nonbrahmans, women, dalits and adivasis were/are not allowed. Merit in this country gets reduced to clinging to something for centuries and denying the same to others.

The institute admits students purely on the basis of merit.

IIT-Madras, Handbook 1999

Imagine a student of law, history or engineering being told to undergo an extra year of a 'Preparatory Course', pass it, and then get to the usual two- or four-year term, because she happens to be dalit. Consider this happening in Nagpur University or Osmania or Annamalai. Or Jawaharlal Nehru University. But this does not, would not, happen in these places. It happens only in the Indian Institutes of Technology; in their BTech courses. Many dalits and adivasis who get admitted into IITs are 'counselled' into first attending, and then passing, a Preparatory Course. IITs were not required to implement reservation for students till 1973. When they were forced to, they did it most reluctantly, adding riders - cut-off mark, prep course.

...... more in the website

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 01:56 PM
Not mazdoors .. they are usually very hardworking, loyal people who always follow their union leader to go on strike. They have also never heard of the concept of saving, as within 2 days of the strike .. pet mein aag lag jaatee hai.. and their kids are always out staring hungrily at other peoples food ..

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 02:02 PM
is this correct?? They make you take an extra year of preparatory classes just because you are low caste. You're kidding , right ??

Let me get this straight. A dalit, who appears at the IIT-JEE, gets rank and admission based on that, still has to go thru a year of extra classes. That is ridiculous.

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 02:14 PM
They make you take an extra year of preparatory classes just because you are low caste

As far as I know, this course is not for the Lower Caste per se....it if for the students who have got marks below a specific level. In the unreserved categy, there is no one who is below this level. But in reserved category, a majority is below it. These are the peopl who have to go thro' this course. That's what I have heard.

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 02:21 PM
Big-G,

Yaar samjha kar .. Maybe we should have a new smiley or font for sarcasm ..

Was waiting for someone to bite ..

bahuram
May 4th, 2001, 02:47 PM
Hey Folks,

We have had some very inspiring stories here. Rising Sun talked about his rise, Super-Girl about her father and Perfectionist about some people in his village. Good. Very Good. But you missed the point. None of them came up on their own merit. All of them were helped. This is how.

All of them went through education that was hugely subsidized by the govt thru taxes, ie. indirectly by the Bania. If they had slogged, and made money to cover their education that was UNSUBSIDIZED, it is OK. But that is not so. This is a different but but related topic - that of private education. Suppose there was NO govt education - only private. How many people would have done it? Suppose I were to say "LET GOVT NO EDUCATE. LET EDUCATION BE PRIVATE" What would I hear? "NO NO, THEN ONLY BANIA WOULD BE EDUCATED. WHAT OF US?" So what is wrong if I say "WE DON'T WANT PURE MARKS - THEN ONLY BRAHMINS WILL BE EDUCATED" See the connection?

What makes you think that just because you got Marks you got merit? You call me a Marxist, I call you a 'Marksist'. Why not 'ability to make money' be a criteria? No. Then Brahmins would never make it. So you want a criteria that you can follow - exsams. Then you call it merit. Have a different entrance exam. In Metallurgy have an exam saying "Make me a steel sheet". In leather "Practically make me a leather bag", etc etc. You will all fail.

That is why reservations - get it?

With Metta,

BahuRam

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 02:49 PM
Kya yaar Smelly Bhaiyya....chupkey sey aankh maar detey ..... bhari public mein mainey chu*iya katva liya!!

*Big-G ab chu*iye jaisa mahsoos kar raha hai*:D

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 02:52 PM
Hey Folks,

We have had some very inspiring stories here. Rising Sun talked about his rise, Super-Girl about her father and Perfectionist about some people in his village. Good. Very Good. But you missed the point. None of them came up on their own merit. All of them were helped. This is how.

All of them went through education that was hugely subsidized by the govt thru taxes, ie. indirectly by the Bania. If they had slogged, and made money to cover their education that was UNSUBSIDIZED, it is OK. But that is not so. This is a different but but related topic - that of private education. Suppose there was NO govt education - only private. How many people would have done it? Suppose I were to say "LET GOVT NO EDUCATE. LET EDUCATION BE PRIVATE" What would I hear? "NO NO, THEN ONLY BANIA WOULD BE EDUCATED. WHAT OF US?" So what is wrong if I say "WE DON'T WANT PURE MARKS - THEN ONLY BRAHMINS WILL BE EDUCATED" See the connection?

What makes you think that just because you got Marks you got merit? You call me a Marxist, I call you a 'Marksist'. Why not 'ability to make money' be a criteria? No. Then Brahmins would never make it. So you want a criteria that you can follow - exsams. Then you call it merit. Have a different entrance exam. In Metallurgy have an exam saying "Make me a steel sheet". In leather "Practically make me a leather bag", etc etc. You will all fail.

That is why reservations - get it?

With Metta,

BahuRam

NO. Pliss explain again.

Deepest and warmest metta,
Big-G

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 03:00 PM
Well... EXCUSE ME Bahuram....

No one helps no one. The fact is since we are not eligible under reservation, we DO NOT get subsidies.

My dad has been working since he 14 years old and he paid for his education.

Subsidies, your ass, when my dad was studying - there were no subsidies in the 1940s

And you are talking about reservatios???!!!

Get your facts straight, dumbass

You are taxing my patience now! :mad: :( :mad:

Big-G
May 4th, 2001, 03:03 PM
You are taxing my pateince now!

LOL :D :D :D

Supergal....isko laser maar key khatam kar na yaar !!!

smellyfinger
May 4th, 2001, 03:04 PM
Ghor kalyug hai, bhaiyon. Aaj kal Patience par bhi tax lagne laga hai ...

Rahul
May 4th, 2001, 03:22 PM
Bhai Smelly,

Yeh woh tax he jo sirf Proud American Indian per hi lagta he kyoki unko dalito per gussa aata he, ab agar Super gals dalit hoti to shayad unhe kuch discount bhi mil jaata

Palle to bhai apun ko bhi nahi pada yah tax, lekin haan yeh shayad american indian lingo hoga :confused:

laal_langot
May 4th, 2001, 03:31 PM
Something certainly is being taxed I agree super girl


No one helps no one

when no one is there to help and no one to help why is someone trying to help anyone???

Subsidies, your ass

Maybe thats the reason hes crying.....only the ass is subsidised...can the twinkle twinkle little stars be subsidised too??since tax is already being paid as super girl mentioned...

nandini
May 4th, 2001, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by gandesh
agree with bahuram.... they form 22% of population so they own 22% of everything..... so even though i am from the so called "upper class" u have my sympathies bahuram.... :)

gandesh do u have such a serious attention problem that u will go against common sense on every issue just because everybody is talking sense on an issue you get insecure because u think u r not being heard
OWN 22.5% of INDIA what kind of bullshit is that ?

Super Girl
May 4th, 2001, 09:08 PM
Guys, Guys, Guys.......

These are all analogies...... Kya tum bhi..itna to samjho:D

waise bhi, Super Gil ko jab gussa aata hai tab usse spelling mistakes bahut hoti hai....:D

To tax someone also means to make difficult or excessive demands upon him or her and MR BAHURAM with his one sided opinion is so exasperating that my patience is straining to breaking point :D :D :D

anyway, I hate paying tax so imagine how much I must be hating this too!!!


whooshhhhhhhhh.........Super Girl is flying off now to have a glorious weekend with her family! BTW, I have a two year old son :) He is the most adorable monkey into his terrible twos

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 09:36 PM
Great bahuram you asked,I will not reply to any of the questions except this today.
So bahuram lets begin

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by bahuram
You all talk of IITs. You know that they practise untouchability? I am a vanavasi from Tripura. I got 80% in 12 std. I should have got in IIT - all my teachers say so. I got in IITM only in 3rd attempt because of untouchability. Here is how :

1) IITs hvae only 3% SC/ST candidates against 22.5% per constitution.

You have wrong information,its 22.5% only

2) All Dalits have to go for 1 year 'preparatory corse'. This only for Dalits and is discrimination.

Will explain you later

3) IITs have no Dalits on faculty.

In my time the Dean of student affairs was a scheduled caste,many heads of the department were scheduled caste

4) Only Dalits employed by IITs are Scavengers

Its a joke.

5) Reservation cut-off is 2/3rds and NOT down-to-zero marks.

again joke,0 marks to get into IIT's,Good

6) Most Dalits are MADE to fail and ASKED to leave under unfair treatment meted.

Will explain you later

7) A Brahmin in Metalurgical can get a Computer job - not given to Dalit in Metalurgical.

Private Companies can give any thing to any one,Its their property,you can donate all your money to any human being,no one will question


8) Dalit is asked to take 22 credits instead of 28 for Brahmins saying - you are weak. But the total credits remain same!! So Dalit takes 6 years to pass against 4 yrs by Brahman (over and above 1 extra yr for preparatory).

I f you can't pass 4 courses in a semester,how will you paas six courses my dear.Just think

9) Compulsory passing of Dalits in every internal exam as per Mandal Committee is not followed. (Down to Zero)

Boss,Its a quality institute,if you cannot perform JUST GET LOST.There are 1000 other colleges in India go and spoil them


10) Dalits not given representations in sports and debates in hostel actrivities.

A Scheduled Caste was President of IIT K,sports,
I have a deep respect for him for his organizing ability.

11) Dalits have no reservations in alumni association.
Joke again

This is nothing but Brahminical domination. (As Proof, IITM has one 'Kanchi Kamakoti Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Endowment Award' under its various financial aid schemes) Infact, IIT is called Iyer-Iyenger Inst of Tech !!!!

Another full form.
IIT(Indian Institute of Infinite Tension)


With metta

Bahuram

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 10:22 PM
Ok Bahuram,
Friends bahu ram is misinforming about preparatory course.
Government of India is so generous,what should i say.
There two categories of SC students,
One you qualify in their Quota and one who don't qualify.
Those who don't qualify but have some Hopeful marks
:D :D .The Government of India trains them for one year in the Hostel to study and appear for the axam next year.
bahuram what else you want.
Which government in the world will do this

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 10:34 PM
When our Mess Bill comes around 1200 their mess bill comes around 500.Thier is a separate Book Bank or Library for them,All the course books are issued to them for the whole semester.We have to either buy or fight for the books.
Their Tution fee,every thing is half than us.
Imagine a son of an Police IG or an IAS officer paying just 500 hundred for mess bill and I whose father is a Humble Technician has to pay 1500 rupees for mess bill.
Imagine that son of Police IG would have a Music System worth 20000 rupees in House,having a carton full of Imported Cigarettes and what not,Air Coolers and paying just 500 for mess bill and tution fees.
What else you want Government of India to do for you.

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 10:59 PM
Academics is a bit hard in IIT's.So when SC/ST's come with quota.Even General Category Students fail many times.So if they are put in a normal phase they will
feel discouraged.So what is done is a Exam is conducted.
Those who pass are allowed to carry on in a normal phase and those who fail are suppose to be in slow phase.Slow Phase means when a General student will do 5 courses they will do 4 courses,so they can comfortably pass.
In my time in the exam only my roommate who was very Good,passed and all other failed,So my Roommate who was a SC ST cleared in 4 years,other cleared in 5 years.

Bahuram,many of your brothers fail even when they are doing 4 courses,what do you expect out when they are doing 6 courses.

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 11:24 PM
This is true,
Some of the SC/ST's behaviour is good but most of them
would behave in anefarious ways.They won't study,won't perform acadamically,indulge in all kind of wrong activities and what not.
During my time some were kicked out because they don't performed well,indulged in all kind of anti social activities etc.
For your Information bahuram
the Dean who throwed them out was a SC/ST himself
:D :D :D .
But he was an IITian first and then an SC/St

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 11:36 PM
There is general rule that if your CGPA goes below 5 two times you will be thrown out.
But this is very fair,many Generla candidates are also thrown out.
But let me tell only those who are involved in nefarious activities and are totally spoilt and doesn't suit to its culture are thrown out.
Even if you perform badly acadimically you are given a lot of chances

Randheer
May 4th, 2001, 11:43 PM
Bahuram,
I will say there are thousand of other engineering colleges in India which will take you on zero marks,Paas you in all the courses and give you a degree.
Bahuram because of Privitazation,getting jobs theese days is not difficult,you can get a job and live comforatbily.But please don't spoil the sprit of IIt's by this casteist politics.
My best friend was my Roommate who was an SC/St.
who was very capable.
Look at the respect our boys have created throught the world with their hard work.
Please don't spoil it.
If you feel you are opressed from 5000 years and since you are in majority,you have full right over IIT's then I would request you to do a favour to this country.
Please ask your leaders like mayawayi,Kanshiram to get it closed rather than spoiling with stupid policies.

Randheer
May 5th, 2001, 03:55 AM
For Bahuram and Dalit and others...
I have been a member since long and have seen a lot of discussion based on castes,but i have never taken part in them as i don't believe in this caste crap,
I was always neutral
but this post of bahuram boiled my blood.
Come on you all dalit fellows,
Be Grateful to the Country,the Colleges where you study.
You can't be so Ungrateful.
Be Grateful to the people of India who are following this unique policy of reservation in the world.

Come on <Be Grateful

bahuram
May 5th, 2001, 05:52 AM
Dear Randheer,

Here are my answers -

The Government of India trains them for one year in the Hostel to study and appear for the axam next year. bahuram what else you want.

We lose one year. Cut of one year from the course requirements then.

Imagine a son of an Police IG or an IAS officer paying just 500 hundred for mess bill and I whose father is a Humble Technician has to pay 1500 rupees for mess bill.

Rare Case. Most Dalits are very very poor

Bahuram,many of your brothers fail even when they are doing 4 courses,what do you expect out when they are doing 6 courses.

Sir, implement the Mandal commission's down-to-zero rule


During my time some were kicked out because they don't performed well,indulged in all kind of anti social activities etc. For your Information bahuram the Dean who throwed them out was a SC/ST himself

No argument. Any one who indulges in anti-social activities should be kicked out. But usually there is a caste bias there. Assume two students one with CGPA of 4.5 and another with CGPA of 9.5 are arrested for indulging in such activities. Plz kick both or none. Don't discriminate based on CGPA - that is casteism.


Bahuram because of Privitazation,getting jobs theese days is not difficult,you can get a job and live comforatbily.

Sorry. Private sectors should have reservations first.



Be Grateful to the people of India who are following this unique policy of reservation in the world.

Its NOT unique. Its there in US, Malaysia and others. Its a part of natural justice.

Plz understand, we should create a world without castes. That is why the struggle.

Bahuram

laal_langot
May 5th, 2001, 06:01 AM
Bahu rani.....do any of us resemble deans of faculty or the HRD minister of India????most of us are not even present in India so why wasting your preciously paranoid knowledge about casteist India here???why dont you enlighten the masses in real space my friend???

That way maybe the private sector will also dish you a red a carpet welcome and the mess bill is also paid by the mess owner....because the customer is a DALIT....

risingsun
May 5th, 2001, 09:47 AM
nope such people should be educated to understand the real view point of a free caste/race free world, not allowed to poison the other fresh minds. bahuram beta ro le jitna rona hai yahaa pe, phir apna muh nahi kholna.

tell me frankly, dont you people feel some shame asking for reservations when you can actually do without it? tell you what by asking for it, YOU ARE SUPPORTING CASTEISM, YOU ARE THE ONES TO BLAME FOR WHAT YOU ARE.

Xandu
May 5th, 2001, 10:32 AM
bahuram,

you really lack some self respect. how can you live with yourself asking for reservation, everything tailormade to suit your inferiority...

if someone just comes in and gives me a million dollars, I would take it but there would be no thrill of having it. only when you compete for it, fight for it and earn it do you enjoy it since you have tasted blood for that...

getting things you want without working for it is so unexciting. i dont know how you can live such a pathetic life :eek:

bahuram
May 5th, 2001, 10:35 AM
My dear friends,

you all seem to be missing a very point - IITs are PUBLIC institutions finance by public funds The cost of educating an IITian works out typically to Rs 40-50 lacs for 4 years. Education is expensive. When money is being doled out of PUBLIC funds, one expects that they be doled out equitably. Right? Saying that you need marks to get in IIT is like saying that we will examine the digestive system of people to see how efficiently they can digest food before giving free food. Like bsaying, we will see how well people can wear good clothes before giving free clothes. Like saying how well people can enjoy flowers before allowing entry into public parks. Is that not ridiculous? You tell me. If we expect too many people to come to public parks, are we going to take a botanical test? No. Similarly, when we allow people to enter the IITs, we have to ensure that PUBLIC FUNDS are more equitably distributed.

There is usually a counter argument to this - merit. But how does it benefit the country who is financing IITs that there is merit? What is vthe public advantage vthat the country gets? There is a public advantage that is available if IITians stay. But since there are no rules prohibiting IITians from going abroad, changing their line of work, taking long leave during post-pregnancy, etc, one can conclude that IITs are NOT finance for public benefit, but as a largesse. If there is a largesse then we want to be a part of it - simple.

I will give an example. Suppose you going abroad make a lot of money, come back, build a big house and stay comfortably - far more than I do. Do I have a right to your house? NO. The house represents your labour. This is what happenned in Chowringhee lane, where people bought houses out of their own labour. But in Nariman Point, Peddar Road (B'bay), Connaught Place (Delhi), Alwar Peth, etc, land was distributed at Rs 1/- per acre, TO STIMULATE CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING. Distributed only to upper caste. That is unfair, and we own 22.5% of Nariman Point, etc. Because Public Largesse was given inequitably. Similarly, Juhu land was given to artists (all uppercaste) at throw away prices. That is unfair. Largesse should be distributed equitably.

Since IITs have public funds and is largesse, it should be distributed equitably. We need 22.5% seats, including down-to-zero principle. If you have merit, why don't you use your merit to create an IIT? Why don't you do that and get your own people in? Why spend Rs 100 crores per IITs?

I would appreciate if vyour responses were logical.

Bahuram

Xandu
May 5th, 2001, 10:44 AM
hey you.

get a shrink

bahuram
May 5th, 2001, 10:45 AM
Xandu,


you really lack some self respect. how can you live with yourself asking for reservation, everything tailormade to suit your inferiority...

if someone just comes in and gives me a million dollars, I would take it but there would be no thrill of having it. only when you compete for it, fight for it and earn it do you enjoy it since you have tasted blood for that... getting things you want without working for it is so unexciting. i dont know how you can live such a pathetic life


It is really nice that you have raised the issue of self-respect. Sir, I do not know where you got yourself educated. If it was from a Govt college, it was subsidized. If from Private college, it was subsidized too (Zero land cost, 1/4th cement and steel cost, cheap paper, chaep electricity, etc).

Sir, the fact is that it takes Rs 5 lacs PER student PER year to run a college in Indian metros if it were NOT for these subsidies (UNESCO Report on Indian Education, 1998). The money spent on educating you was earned by someone ELSE that you may enjoy - PUBLIC FUNDS. Now This I tell you :

you really lack some self respect. how can you live with yourself asking for cheap education, everything tailormade to suit your inferiority (wealth-wise)...

if someone just comes in and gives me a million dollars, I would take it but there would be no thrill of having it. only when you compete for it, fight for it and earn it do you enjoy it since you have tasted blood for that... getting things you want without working for it is so unexciting. i dont know how you can live such a pathetic life

Please go Sir, EARN that money of Rs 5 lacs per year and educate yourself - not at PUBLIC FUNDS. You want merit? Prove it by earning that Rs 5 lacs per yr and educate yourself. THAT is merit my friend.


Bahuram

Senorita
May 5th, 2001, 10:48 AM
bahuram aur shringarey :confused:

this rings a bell ;)

smellyfinger
May 5th, 2001, 10:49 AM
Bahuram,

The issue you make about public funds.. they dont fall from the sky. They come from taxes that we pay. So, even if I received a government education, indirectly I paid for it with taxes. So, where is the problem ?? I subsidised my self.

The difference is, Dalits who dont pay taxes, are subsidised for free by the geovernment, and still complain about stuff like discrimination. If there is discrimination, sir, it is in your favour ..

www
May 5th, 2001, 10:56 AM
it is you who is being illogical bahu jee.

lets go like this, you have 2 hands i have two hands, you have 2 eyes and so do i, when you were born, you came to this world naked, so did i. we both started equally, then why the special treatment to you when you want to go to IIT? you are talking about PUBLIC FUNDS on which IITs run. how much of these do you contribute to? you have to pay less everywhere, less than half!!!

tell me when people go to parks are there any reservations? or do you want reservations there too?? when clothes/food are distributed (i dont know where except for in cases like natural calamities) are there any reservations? or do you want reservations there too??

finally simply tell me why do you consider yourself inferior to me...the way reservations are being begged for i wonder if dalits are really inferior. must be. thats why they need to be given food, shelter, clothing, admissions, jobs on a platter.

i will give one more argument. suppose the down to zero rule is applied to IIT also 22.5% reservations are cleared for IIT (its scary even to think) then imagine what will happen. reserved category people (i'll refer to them as rc just so that i wont have to type the long string again) will pass irrespective of whether they study or not. so most of them wont. (now dont say they will, we all know that is huma tendancy, when you dont have to work to get something, we tend NOT to work for it) as a consequence 22.5% of people come out of IIT will be substandard in terms of knowledge they possess. this will a) further make them inferior b) IIT standards will go down continually. one day will come when IIT will be just some run of the mill colleges. but may be by that time you would want reservations in being born too!!!

Xandu
May 5th, 2001, 11:01 AM
bahuram,

I have been thru both govt and private schooling.

but one thing i was lucky about was I had the best of teachers showing me the way, even in govt schools that I studied (usually good teachers are in private schools for the money they get)

and regarding costs, govt schools were subsidised and private were not. and about engineering I got it at little cost in merit because i worked hard and earned it. i knew my PCM like the back of my hand. and dude I worked to learn stuff well. nothing comes free. and i have seen those who came in thru reservation in my college. none of them made it past the first year. and 80% dropped out after 3 years. i graduated and I dont know about the rest 20%.

but the fact is that due to them, we have as many bright heads denied the opportunity of getting those seats in the first year and making a career for themselves. end result of 4 years of investment in reservation = SC/ST quota % less engineers. If there were no reservation then the % of engineers would be more. And regarding costs, the money spent on SC/ST is more because they dont have to pay anything at all while we paid highly subsidised (negligible) fees.

But really, someone did crack a good one on these inferior people who come thru reservations


In the college restroom, there was a like drawn 7 feet about the ground with a note saying "If you can piss above this line, they you join the fire brigade

Below that, about 3 feet from the ground another line with the note "For SC/ST"

www
May 5th, 2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
Xandu,

Please go Sir, EARN that money of Rs 5 lacs per year and educate yourself - not at PUBLIC FUNDS. You want merit? Prove it by earning that Rs 5 lacs per yr and educate yourself. THAT is merit my friend.


Bahuram

ya, people who really work hard will do that, but you honourable sir you dont work hard ok? you take a begging bowl and sit there while i go to work and beg for reservations.

laal_langot
May 5th, 2001, 11:15 AM
Why the hell do we have to argue guys.....the very fact that the benefits are desired at the very top rather than at the grassroots level speaks volumes about the actual intent...

Bahu rani you talk about reservations everywhere from the private sector to IIT's.....why the hell dont you instead go to the government.....shoot all these figures about the cost of educating people etc etc. at them.....tell them instead of reservations you want the money to be provided to you in the form of subsidised land for schools or subsidies for polytechnics whatver and bring the oppressed depressed suppressed and all the other essed's people up to the level of competency where they can compete in the open category and kick asses be they Braminical pure ones or brave rajput ones....

When you ask for reservation right at the end of the supply chain....all you want is that no matter what the quality of the product uss pe thappa lagaa do ke its top quality....a computer enginner from IIT who cannot speak English properly will lead India towards the goal of being the IT superpower???A civil engineer from IIT who got in say with the down to zero rule(were it implemented)and took 6 years to pass his BSc. will make buildings that survive Latur and Bhuj???

Mere bhai bolo to aapke liye shaadi ke case mein bhi reservations karwaa dein???22.5% of supermodels in India cannot be taken by anyone else because DALIT's own 22.5% of everything....

www
May 5th, 2001, 11:18 AM
and 22.5% of air too, you cannot breathe air in those areas because it is reserved

Xandu
May 5th, 2001, 11:20 AM
if 5 lacs is all it takes per year to educate me then well dont complain about it since my taxpayer dad paid for my educaiton in full and much more

what about you? who paid the money for you to learn english?? my dad probably... say thanx OK


see if you qualify for the fire brigade pal :D

Senorita
May 5th, 2001, 11:27 AM
Ye bahuram ch*ye ko Taliban ke pass bhej do :D

Bahuram ki samsya solved and Taliban ki g**d lag jayegee.

:D

heeee heeee heeeeee

laal_langot
May 5th, 2001, 11:29 AM
Wahaan jaane ko bhi RESERVATIONS chahiyein....not to mention wahaan pohanch ke kaheingay humhaari achhi tarah naheen lagaayi jaa rahi....Brahmins ki humse zyaada tapaayi jaati hai....

Xandu
May 5th, 2001, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by laal_langot
Wahaan jaane ko bhi RESERVATIONS chahiyein....not to mention wahaan pohanch ke kaheingay humhaari achhi tarah naheen lagaayi jaa rahi....Brahmins ki humse zyaada tapaayi jaati hai....

:D :D

smellyfinger
May 5th, 2001, 12:26 PM
whats scary is that an educated guy, who has used all the benefits of reservation, and been better for it, has so much bitterness and hate for the system. Can you imagine the guys who are not able to even use the benefits .. how much hate and bitterness they would have ??

It is downright scary ..

Randheer
May 5th, 2001, 10:29 PM
Bahuram Dear...
What can I say to a learned person like you.
I am very less educated of Ambedkar Policies.

I can only say that Dear work Hard,there is no shortcut to hard work.The world is getting very competitive,If you can't work hard you will be royally screwed and your ass will be kicked in lo less time.
In India you can cribb and raise a lot of hue and cry,you can't do the same in USA if you are laid off for your incompetence.
the economies are becoming global and fit and only fittest will survive

bahuram
May 6th, 2001, 11:54 PM
Randheer, Xandu, Laal Langot and others,

The essence of your argument lies in the fact that 'it is a competitive world' and that 'entry of Dalits who have scored less weakens the competitive advantage'. But that is NOT true. There are serious competitive advantages of giving seats to Dalits (even if they have NOT scored adequately).

I will give an example from the S/W industry. As you know, before the current GUI was invented, computers had wonky systems where you had to learn abstruse commands like rm, mv, grep, etc. Very few people could master them. GUI was initially resisted by the geeks - it was too jazzy. They wanted a world where only the 'intelligent' could rule - standards had to be met. Yet, it was by introduction of GUI and thus 'reducing standards and making it accessible to everyone' that the IT revolution took off. 'Reducing standards' had a competitive edge. Because there were tons of guys who were put off by the abstruse commands who now accepted computers and used them in ways which the earlier geeks vcould not even think of - games, hollywood, architecture, etc. It has happenned that the geeks who thought themselves 'fit' are being laid off !!

One more example. If you look at intrinsic merit, there is greater merit by far in Sanskrit than in English. Phonetically English stinks. But who won? Who has competitive advantage? English! Precisely because it is simple that everyone can use it. While Sanskrit maintained its purity by refusing to accept outside words, (TV = Door Darshan, B/W=Krishna Dhawal, etc), English was more accomodative - it took 'Saheb', 'Jauggernaut' from Hindi, 'Mulagawtawny' from Tamil, 'Amdavat' from Gujarati, 'Kayak' from Lapps, 'Verandah' from French, 'Sinister' from German, 'Boomerang' from Aboriginies, 'Totem' from red-indians, 'Igloo' from Inuits, etc.etc. It has not got where it is by maintaining standards, but infact by OPENING ITS DOORS.

A typical Dalit entering IIT has about 80% marks in Std 12, while an Upper Caste has 95%. So UC is 15% BETTER. bUT IN iit, the difference increases. Why? Because of too strict entrance. Is there a necessity to know integral of root tan x? Dalits have a lot to contribute. We cannot close doors on them - get it? You talk of efficiency - but an IIT education costs Rs 50lacs (100,000$) - the same as in say Berkeley (Federal aided) or MIT. Yet IIT has not produced a single man of exceptional talent - no Nobel Prize Winner, No Leibnitz prize, no earth shatterring discoveries or inventions. Is it competitive? Is not something wrong?

Bahuram

Randheer
May 7th, 2001, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
Randheer, Xandu, Laal Langot and others,


A typical Dalit entering IIT has about 80% marks in Std 12, while an Upper Caste has 95%. So UC is 15% BETTER. bUT IN iit, the difference increases. Why? Because of too strict entrance. Is there a necessity to know integral of root tan x? Dalits have a lot to contribute. We cannot close doors on them - get it? You talk of efficiency - but an IIT education costs Rs 50lacs (100,000$) - the same as in say Berkeley (Federal aided) or MIT. Yet IIT has not produced a single man of exceptional talent - no Nobel Prize Winner, No Leibnitz prize, no earth shatterring discoveries or inventions. Is it competitive? Is not something wrong?

Bahuram


I can give Narayan Murthi and thousand other examples,But as Smellyfinger says,no point arguing with idiots.

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 06:27 AM
Dear Randhir,

You talked about Narayan Murthy - good. He made his money through entrepreneurship, not research. What has IIT got to do with that? A son sof a teacher (Ambani) created a greater company from entrepreneurship. If an IITian wins the gold medal in olympics, you will say that IIT has contributed? Show me a single Einstien , Newton from IIT. A single Nobel Prizer - which is supposed to be IITs forte.

Pls understand that I am NOT saying IIT is bad. I am saying that it is not as effecient as you think. Besides, Narayan Murthy did NOT do his Btech from IIT (did his MTech)


and thousand other examples,But as Smellyfinger says,no point arguing with idiots. It is true.


You CAN'T - THAT is the issue. Sir, I have given the reasons for affirmative action - giving examples of Sanskrit and GUI. If you want, plz refutre the arguments. Why go to personal level and call me an idiot?

But the truth is the truth. No one has even heard of IIT here. Talk to a middle level manager in say Insurance, Banking, Mfg, etc - they say : 'IIT who?' I am a product of IIT (M) myself - why should I lie? Here in US, with the SAME or LESSER cost of $100,000 per student, they are producing several Nobel Prize winners, Lebneitz winners, etc. IIT is NOT as effecient as it appears.

If fact, for the same reason we are activating to have 22.5% quota in US VISAS. Get it?

Bahuram

Randheer
May 7th, 2001, 08:52 AM
Dear Bahuramm...
IIT is not supposed to produce Nobel lauretes.It is supposed to produce Technocrats who can out perform others and are of world class.
Many CEO's of Multinational companies are IITians.This proves it.
many IAS,IPS officers in India are IITians.

I will always prefer an Engineer like NarayanMurthi
and nandan Neelkeni rather than Amartya Sen



:) :)

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 09:00 AM
Randheer,

IITs claim that they produce technocrats : Accepted
IITs claim that they produce good technocrats : Accepted
IITs claim that they produce technocrats that are equal to the best in the world : NOT Accepted

I am NOT interested in Amartya Sen (Economist). IIT has never produced a world class science laureate, or expanded the frontiers of technology. I am not denying the merits of Nilakeni Saab - but to believe him to be the best-of-=the-best is ridiculous. Finally, Infosys is a temp agency. Uses others' technology - never created its own technology. IITians have rarely expanded techno frontiers - like MIT has done, or Berkeley. They INVENTED the transistor, VLSI, Dengro Magnets, Super Conductors. Caltech INVENTED computers. They INVENTED the concept of 'language', created Beta-Transformed Storage, etc etc. IITians - NOTHING. They are good tecnicians - GOOD ones. But at a cost of $100000 per student comparable with MIT, Caltech etc? Seriously!!

We have to make IITians more efficient. That can be done by allowing 22.5% Dalits in , even by using the 'down-to-zero' principle.

Bahuram

Dalit
May 7th, 2001, 09:04 AM
Bahuram

Check my personla message to you

smellyfinger
May 7th, 2001, 09:06 AM
uh oh .. now we are in big trouble .. Dalit and Bahuram collaborating ..

Xandu
May 7th, 2001, 09:16 AM
bahuram,

if you think rm, mv, grep and other basic stuff is abstruse then you are a true moron. no wonder you are asking for reservation

keep on dreamin pal.

Originally posted by bahuram
Randheer, Xandu, Laal Langot and others,

The essence of your argument lies in the fact that 'it is a competitive world' and that 'entry of Dalits who have scored less weakens the competitive advantage'. But that is NOT true. There are serious competitive advantages of giving seats to Dalits (even if they have NOT scored adequately).

I will give an example from the S/W industry. As you know, before the current GUI was invented, computers had wonky systems where you had to learn abstruse commands like rm, mv, grep, etc. Very few people could master them. GUI was initially resisted by the geeks - it was too jazzy. They wanted a world where only the 'intelligent' could rule - standards had to be met. Yet, it was by introduction of GUI and thus 'reducing standards and making it accessible to everyone' that the IT revolution took off. 'Reducing standards' had a competitive edge. Because there were tons of guys who were put off by the abstruse commands who now accepted computers and used them in ways which the earlier geeks vcould not even think of - games, hollywood, architecture, etc. It has happenned that the geeks who thought themselves 'fit' are being laid off !!

One more example. If you look at intrinsic merit, there is greater merit by far in Sanskrit than in English. Phonetically English stinks. But who won? Who has competitive advantage? English! Precisely because it is simple that everyone can use it. While Sanskrit maintained its purity by refusing to accept outside words, (TV = Door Darshan, B/W=Krishna Dhawal, etc), English was more accomodative - it took 'Saheb', 'Jauggernaut' from Hindi, 'Mulagawtawny' from Tamil, 'Amdavat' from Gujarati, 'Kayak' from Lapps, 'Verandah' from French, 'Sinister' from German, 'Boomerang' from Aboriginies, 'Totem' from red-indians, 'Igloo' from Inuits, etc.etc. It has not got where it is by maintaining standards, but infact by OPENING ITS DOORS.

A typical Dalit entering IIT has about 80% marks in Std 12, while an Upper Caste has 95%. So UC is 15% BETTER. bUT IN iit, the difference increases. Why? Because of too strict entrance. Is there a necessity to know integral of root tan x? Dalits have a lot to contribute. We cannot close doors on them - get it? You talk of efficiency - but an IIT education costs Rs 50lacs (100,000$) - the same as in say Berkeley (Federal aided) or MIT. Yet IIT has not produced a single man of exceptional talent - no Nobel Prize Winner, No Leibnitz prize, no earth shatterring discoveries or inventions. Is it competitive? Is not something wrong?

Bahuram

Senorita
May 7th, 2001, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
Randheer,


We have to make IITians more efficient. That can be done by allowing 22.5% Dalits in , even by using the 'down-to-zero' principle.

Bahuram

hehehehehhe

I'd imagined this guy was a normal sane person -naaaah :p

He harbours delusions of dalit grandeur , their astute intellect and ultimately of dalit conquest over the rest of the world :p

Imagine a Sweeper sitting beside MIT nobel laureates with a jhaadoo sticking out from above his shoulders ala
he-man n his sword and proclaiming that efficiency is a tangible discrete thing that flows outta his jhadoo :D

LOL LOL LOL

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 10:39 AM
Xandu,


If you think rm, mv, grep and other basic stuff is abstruse then you are a true moron. no wonder you are asking for reservation


I DON'T think them abstruse. But MOST people do. They have that is why adopted GUI. With Linux coming, the rm/mv guys will be out of business soon. The fact is this : The world has gained by opeining its doors, not lost. By making entrance simpler, not elitist. The truth is this : the rm/mv guys HAD A RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS DEMOCRATIZATION OF IT. THEY DID NOT ACCEPT IT. The people who democratized it, Microsoft, became very wealthy. This has a parallel with IIT. It has a RESPONSIBILITY to make it accessible to everyone - not just elitist. Get it? They are being irresponsible by NOT providing 22.5% seats to SC/ST and implementing down-to-zero principle.

Bahuram

Big-G
May 7th, 2001, 10:54 AM
97 posts ??????????????????????

Abey maaf kar dey bahu bhai...maaf kardey...terey ko jo chahiye woh le ley... echarcha pey bhi 22% threads terey naam kar dengey...magar ab maaf kardey.... :D

aryaputra
May 7th, 2001, 10:54 AM
bahuram wants no minimum requirements to enter IIT?

does MIT / caltech .... follow that rule?

laal_langot
May 7th, 2001, 10:54 AM
Its because dalit's give their speeches in bhojpuri and IIT's dont want that happening at the Bobel prize felicitation ceremony....and then where will we bring the racks for keeping all those trophies that the 22.5% will win day in day out

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 10:56 AM
Senorita,


magine a Sweeper sitting beside MIT nobel laureates with a jhaadoo sticking out from above his shoulders ala
he-man n his sword and proclaiming that efficiency is a tangible discrete thing that flows outta his jhadoo


I NEVER said that Dalits with 0% would get Nobel Prize. I said that if we allow Dalits with 0%, Nobel Prize will result. This is how :

IITs have a deep contempt for industry except S/W (which they like as it is deskjob). Most others are not. The attitude is : "We are the technologists - these Steel makers are workers, financiers". They never make space for them. In MIT, Berkeley, they take in people who have EXPERIENCE in steel - not just those people who know the Laplace Transform of exp(s). Together, they create history. They SYNERGIZE!! Get it? Nobel Prize Results from that SYNERGY. One Plus One become Eleven, not two.

I will make it clearer. Indian history has several people. Each has produced brave men. Maharji Scindia of Marathas, Akbar of Moghuls, Vikothi of Dalits, Rana Pratap of Rajputs, Hakka-Bukka of South, Ranjit Singh of Sikhs, etc. Every single race prided on Bravery. EXCEPT ONE. There was only ONE race/people in Indian History that did not hve a SINGLE brave man - you will not be able to tell me ONE brave lkeader. What people? The English!! Surprising that they ruled over India eh?? This is how it happenned :

Consider the battle between Maratthas and the British. The Marathas under Peshwas believed in 'Merit'. They had a stiff entrance. Best swordsmen, gunners and best cavalry. But they seleceted ONLY from upper castes. The Brits selected from ALL castes. they had a smaller army. Yet their swordsmen could repair sails, their spearsmen could oil wheels. They routed cthe Maraths. Even when Shivaji attacked Brits, 5000 Marathas were routed by 240 Brits in face to face battle! They worked as a unit - they synergize.

We can create GREATER efficiency if we allow the Dalits to come in IIT - even at 0% marks. We will make 1+1 equal 11. We will Synergize.

Baruram

aryaputra
May 7th, 2001, 10:57 AM
bahuram wants no minimum requirements to enter IIT?

does MIT / caltech .... follow that rule?

laal_langot
May 7th, 2001, 11:07 AM
Shring a ling aap to sabke dar ling they...you dint have to reinarnate as bahu rani and change your ling...

As for the brits defeating the Indians(not just Marathas) there were many more factors to it than the one point agenda that you see...why dont you talk about the technology differential??firepower that the british had in terms of ammunition was unknown and in fact awe inspiring to the Indians....

If it was just caste did everyone from Tipu Sultan to Subash Chandra Bose practice casteism??if thats the case then why didnt a parallel dalit resistance movement begin similar to say the uproars by the santhals and bhil's???

If IIT's cant produce Nobel prize winners with the people they admit now who consistently outscore those who dont get in everywhere from school exams to common entrance tests then you think the admission of those who come through the SAME system with even lower credentials will help India win Nobel prizes like it wins beauty contests??going through the institution you have criticised for its value system(elitist views about the job profile of their ideal jobs etc.) what will the dalit's end up as??technocrats who invent mechanised tatti cleaning machines rather than white collar babu log in the US or MNC's in India???

Big-G
May 7th, 2001, 11:51 AM
Shring a ling aap to sabke dar ling they...you dint have to reinarnate as bahu rani and change your ling...

Red-Undie bhaiyya...zara khul key batao !!!

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 03:53 PM
Aryaputra,

does MIT / caltech .... follow that rule?

Most of the top Engg. univs in US do this for entrance :

i) Simple exam like SAT/GRE which tests what you know - unlike exam like IIT - which tests what you do not know

ii) Entrance Exam is just ONE aspect - they look at past scores

iii) Reference letters

iv) Past work experience and relevance to field

Besides this, they try to get a mix of gender and ethnicity on the campus. It makes sense, does it not? I am a metallurgical engr. Who would I prefer if I were in the selection committee? A person who scored 700 and no experience or a person who scored 600 and good experience? I will give weightage to 'other talents' like experience, character (Ref Letter), organizing skills, etc. These are important for Engineering or no?

The down-to zero rule is required because our exams in IIT are wonky. A person could score 700 in SAT and still get 0 in IIT. This is because the whole process is skewed in terms of expertise in a NARROW field (like Integral of Root-Tan-x), unlike in US. These people who are not academically so good too contribute, you see? While IITian metallurgists can solve complex desk-jobs, they cannot make steel. Technological innovation requires a bit of both.

Arya, we were the FIRST technologists of India. Made steel (Lohar), leather articles (Chamar), textiles, auto-engineers (Chariot makers) etc. Today, rather than using our skills, we are getting neglected, and Leather technologists can mug a lot of facts but not make leather. Has this any sense? Is it efficient?

In order to better utilize the energies of our people we need reservations and a down-to-0 rule.

Bahuram

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 03:54 PM
Laal Langot,


As for the brits defeating the Indians(not just Marathas) there were many more factors to it than the one point agenda that you see...why dont you talk about the technology differential??firepower that the british had in terms of ammunition was unknown and in fact awe inspiring to the Indians....


This is PRECISELY the point - technology differential!! WHAT HAPPENNED THEN:

The right to education was in Brahmin hands. It consisted chiefly of Religious and administrative studies. Technology was in hands of Dalits - chamars, lohars, sonars, sutars etc were making leather, steel, wood, items. There were considered as third rate. In Britain it was NOT so. The smiths, carpenters, cobblers were taught to read/write. They formed guilds. They had 'papers' on 'best practises'. Other tradesmen/workers studied the papers, learnt the practices, applied them, improved them and republished them. This led to increase in quantity and quality and eventually the industrial revelution. When Brits met Indians, both had cannons. Brit canons would fire longer and straighter because cannon makers would exchange info through writing. They would rust less often because Smiths would write. Their explosive mixture was better because gunners would write, their sails were better because their sailors would write/. This 'incremental' gain was terrific. When the two cultures met, we were overpowered by their technological differential, and began licking their asses.


THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENNING NOW :

Technological education is in hands of bean-counters - guys who can solve Lagrange equations - not those who make steel, rubber, cement etc. These people are theoreticians and cannot innovate. West employs the people with dirty hands as technologists. Their technological power is still awesome. And us? We are stilln licking their asses.

To stop this, we need to break the cycle by reservations. In areas which Brahmins thought were below their dignity (beauty contests, fashion design, etc), people with practical skills have entered. Result : we have conquered the world. To break away from this fetish of Integral-of-Root-Tan-X, we need reservations

Bahuram

gandesh
May 7th, 2001, 04:25 PM
yaar bahu bas band karo yeh jaati wadi agenda ab... if u didn't like the way IITs treated u go to Smajwadi Party n start a protest.... take it to the streets.... yahan utpatang post karne sei kya hoga?? :confused:

May 7th, 2001, 06:16 PM
abey bahuram,
this is my first post here even i being member for past 6 months.i usually enjoy posts here,but seeing u r post my blood got boiled.
abey sale asking for 22.5% in iit, u r still getting 3% feel happy for that.
u feel brits won over indians because they hired people from all casts!!!!!!!!!! so u admit it?? that we the upper cast were patriotic and u guys helped brits in conquring india?? see how patriotic u were in those days.even then our gov is giving subsidies to u.
abey uc people are more in population, if we get united and rebel the reservation system can be thrown.but we r not doing it just because we believe in hard work and we care for what we acheive.
u got seat in iit because of reservation only, know that.
dont act to be smart(b cos u know u r not smart).
hahaha............got 80%. u feel thats good %.abey thats pretty average. sale zameen par aao. first understand what you are. u unpatriotic fool.

bahuram
May 7th, 2001, 07:59 PM
Dear greatlund,


abey sale asking for 22.5% in iit, u r still getting 3% feel happy for that.

Why should I? we are 22.5% of pop, and we get only 3% of resources! And we should be happy!! ridiculous.



u feel brits won over indians because they hired people from all casts!!!!!!!!!! so u admit it?? that we the upper cast were patriotic and u guys helped brits in conquring india?? see how patriotic u were in those days.


I said the Brits hired ALL castes - Dalits AND Upper Caste(UC). How does that make Dalits unpatriotic and UC patriotic? Infact, Indian UC who ruled then, lost because they never made space for us. They placed their caste above their country. Who is unpatriotic?


even then our gov is giving subsidies to u.

Sure. UC too. UC get large educational subsidies too. Forgot that??



abey uc people are more in population, if we get united and rebel the reservation system can be thrown.

Sorry. Wrong. SC/STs = 23%, OBCs=54% Muslims/Christians/Budhists (EXCL those in SC/ST/OBC = 8%). Total = 85%. UC = 15%. Not majority.



but we r not doing it just because we believe in hard work and we care for what we acheive.

True. So do we.


u got seat in iit because of reservation only, know that.

Sure - what is wrong with that!!



dont act to be smart(b cos u know u r not smart). hahaha............got 80%. u feel thats good %.abey thats pretty average.

Sure it is - I'm a pretty average guy. What is your point?



sale zameen par aao. first understand what you are. u unpatriotic fool.

Too advisory to comment


I hope I have clarified your points. If there are still any doubts, please don't hesitate to ask.


Bahuram

May 7th, 2001, 09:23 PM
so u say uc's are minority? then why reservations for u ppl?

Indian
May 8th, 2001, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by greatlund
so u say uc's are minority? then why reservations for u ppl?

ghoom phir kar ..baat waheen par pahunch gaya !
We are going round and round and round and round and round
on a point
which is
round and round and round and round and round and round and..

hain rabba ..mujhe chakkar aa raha hain :(

:D

sukumar
May 8th, 2001, 01:30 AM
Very interesting thread.

risingsun
May 8th, 2001, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by bahuram
Aryaputra,

does MIT / caltech .... follow that rule?

I am a metallurgical engr.
Bahuram

i am humiliated, mai bhi ek meta engg. hoon :((

well mr bahuram i haven't gone thru all your arguments which you spewed forth over the weekend, about the GUI example you gave, tell me even today, who creates, who programs the GUI. it becomes simple because of the creativity of intelligent people who program it. simpletons cannot program gui even today. ok? you are completely wrong when you say that it took off because of GUI. it took of because of soooo many other factors, most important being the reduction in cost of computers and thus the access to it. had you/me develpoed easy to use computer programs with cost in millions of rs., use kale kutte ne bhi nahi dekha hota India mein.

risingsun
May 8th, 2001, 05:07 AM
how much is the upper caste population of India? shall we start asking for that much percentage of our right to the resources of this country?

really bahuram the arguments you put forward are so outrageously stupid.

tell me, you want the pass at zero marks for dalits, why not apply the same rule to all?

loverboy260
May 8th, 2001, 06:40 AM
all of you go to cultural differences and to taliban banning women/men and see what i have written:
one mai n point i would say is although 0.01% of stuff may not be strictly from religion but from culture nevertheless the rest is pure Islamic.

PS US MUSLIMS ARE NOT PERVERTS JUST EVERYONE IS

www
May 8th, 2001, 07:55 AM
mr loverboy aap apni thread mein jaake hilaiye, yahaa kuchh aur topic discuss ho raha hai.

rameshp
January 28th, 2006, 10:50 AM
pushing it up!

the most hilarious thread i have ever read on EC!:D:D this guy 'Bahuram' (dunno whose bahu he is!) doesnt even want to listen to others POV! anyway, a great thread. worth reading. brings out what a farce reservation is! Cliveji, our new Bahuram of EC, where are you?

the best j/k of all, posted by Xandu :

In the college restroom, there was a like drawn 7 feet about the ground with a note saying "If you can piss above this line, they you join the fire brigade

Below that, about 3 feet from the ground another line with the note "For SC/ST"
http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16745&postcount=79

:D:rotfl::D this is going to be my new signature for sure!