echarcha
December 18th, 2001, 11:57 AM
'The government must stop being a prisoner of its own rhetoric'
Former Chief of Army Staff and parliamentarian General Shankar Roy Chowdhury tells Shamya Dasgupta that the government and Opposition must sit together and decide on the retaliation strategy, taking into account various factors, including military preparedness.
New Delhi, December 18
Although the militants couldn't enter the Parliament building, doesn't the fact that they got so close indicate a massive security breach?
Anytime such incidents occur, it is a security breach. Anytime such attacks occur…the attack on the Srinagar Assembly was because of a security breach…all of them, because it indicates that the intelligence agencies have failed to stop them. The only way to stop these attacks, by the way, is through the intelligence agencies. Advance intelligence, where you pick them up before they can launch their attack. That's the only way you can stop these attacks.
But mind you, that has been happening also. Every now and then, these small columns appear in the second and third pages of newspapers that so-and-so was picked up from a bus, or this person was picked up on suspicion from a hotel in Paharganj. That's all part of the fact that we have a reasonable intelligence network, and that they do their work. But many times you don't do it; or you can't do it. And even the best intelligence is not infallible.
Is that in reference to the September 11 attacks on the US?
Anywhere. I am not comparing it with anything. I am only talking about our intelligence. I am saying that even the best intelligence service is not infallible. And we are a hard-pressed nation, with lots of loopholes and gaps in our intelligence. And one of these gaps obviously allowed this thing to happen.
This is not the first time it has happened in recent times…
No. There have been many instances…
There was the Lashkar-e-Toiba attack on the Red Fort, then there was…
Red Fort, Sena Bhawan, Central Government Offices (CGO) complex, a couple of marketplaces…
But nothing seems to be done about it…
Like I said, even the best intelligence network, in spite of the right intentions, sometimes can't stop these things.
But the likes of Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani and others have been saying since, we had intercepted some cell phone messages and…
That was in the investigation. To be frank, I am not sure what Mr Advani has been saying, because I have not been watching television, and I was out of town. But I know that some statements have come out. The cell phone messages that you are talking about were discovered from the cell phones of the people who were killed in the attack, which were scrutinised and numbers of people in the list were procured and so on…. So none of the messages were really intercepted, except one from Pakistan, which asked whether it was necessary to do this (attack) at this time. It was some sort of a coded message, which was intercepted.
You do call it an intelligence failure, and obviously the security threat perception is very high…so what should we do to improve the internal security situation?
You want us to beef it up…that means get more intelligence.
Or a stronger and more thorough and extensive network?
Yeah, a better network. "Get more intelligence" means a better network. But you have to spend a lot of money for that, by the way. They, the intelligence officials, have a network of informants. These informants work for whoever pays them the best. That's the way of life. So you have to pay them more if you want more information. So you have to spend more money. These usually come from these unnumbered funds - unaccounted for funds. They have to be that way. That is the way to pick up human intelligence. The police also have their contacts. A lot of them are criminal contacts. Terrorism and crime are now interlinked. Therefore a lot of these contacts are criminal contacts. And then we have to wait for the right time to pick up a better network of technological intelligence. What you just mentioned about cell phone intercepts and such things, we have to work on that as well.
What do you think should be done now? All fingers seem to point towards Pakistan…
Yeah, right.
Should we then…first of all, do you also believe it is Pakistan?
Yes, yes.
You do?
I do.
Should we attack them now?
That's a decision that has to be taken by the government, but what we should immediately do, is that all these political parties should get together and form a national response. In this case, it is the job of both the government and the Opposition to take a step forward, meet together, and evolve a national response, precisely to answer the question that you are asking.
This is the basic question - what do we do now? This involves a lot of factors; the National Security Council (NSC) is there to give advice, but it has to be an overall national response, with inputs from the various concerned agencies that we have set up. And then we will have to frame our response. A military response is just one of the factors. There is the America factor. Already Mr Colin Powell has issued certain statements. These are all facts of life. You can't wish them away. And we have to take everything into account, sit down with cool heads, deliberate on everything, and then do what we have to do.
Also, I think, the government has to stop becoming a prisoner of its own rhetoric. They mustn't keep talking, making these statements, which seem to suggest a course of action, which may or may not turn out to be what they eventually do. I think the government must tone down its rhetoric. Like I said, the government and the Opposition must come together…the government must take the initiative to make everyone come together. And they must sit down quickly, with all the inputs available to them, and work out a decision.
There are a few takers for the proposition that our forces at the Line of Control (LoC) should start operations, if only to make our intentions clear…
I don't know what you mean. Do you mean crossing over the LoC? We are already at the LoC, and firing has been going on all the time. If you mean crossing over the LoC and firing a few rounds from there - that is a decision the government must take. That is a decision that this national response will have to take. We have to look at everything there. Can we see such an operation through? We have to discuss the possible repercussions. Everything. It could spark off a combat bigger than what we intend to do, and we have to handle that also. Let's see, it's not a decision that can be taken impulsively. We have to work out everything first.
In the eventuality of war, do you think the Indian forces are in a state of preparedness?
I would not like to comment on that at all.
Okay, a more general thing - would you say that the Indian forces are superior enough to the Pakistan forces…
I would not like to comment on the state of military preparedness at this point.
Okay, do you think we are equipped enough to handle a war on the terrains that we are talking about - strategically also?
As I said, military preparedness depends on various issues, including, by the way, procurement of weapons. Also, the modernisation of the army has a lot to do with it, in which sphere, let me tell you, we have not been spending enough for quite some time now. For the last decade or more. So all these factors have to be taken into account before we can make up our minds as to what we should do.
How long do you think we can sustain a full-fledged war, taking all these factors into account?
A full-fledged war…if we go across…if like people are saying we just go and hit the terrorist camps…. The terrorist camps are really "four tents and two tin sheds". If you knock them over, what's the huge deal anyway? You can go and pitch your tents in the next valley. So the point is, a strike on a terrorist camp has the possibility of escalating into a larger conflict. The question here is whether we are ready to face a larger, widespread conflict keeping our resources in mind, keeping our national preparation in mind, keeping the international situation in mind and keeping our own economy in mind? That's why I am saying, the first thing for everyone to do is to sit down and think this through. No questions can be raised or answered before that happens.
http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/dec/18/ca121801general.htm
Former Chief of Army Staff and parliamentarian General Shankar Roy Chowdhury tells Shamya Dasgupta that the government and Opposition must sit together and decide on the retaliation strategy, taking into account various factors, including military preparedness.
New Delhi, December 18
Although the militants couldn't enter the Parliament building, doesn't the fact that they got so close indicate a massive security breach?
Anytime such incidents occur, it is a security breach. Anytime such attacks occur…the attack on the Srinagar Assembly was because of a security breach…all of them, because it indicates that the intelligence agencies have failed to stop them. The only way to stop these attacks, by the way, is through the intelligence agencies. Advance intelligence, where you pick them up before they can launch their attack. That's the only way you can stop these attacks.
But mind you, that has been happening also. Every now and then, these small columns appear in the second and third pages of newspapers that so-and-so was picked up from a bus, or this person was picked up on suspicion from a hotel in Paharganj. That's all part of the fact that we have a reasonable intelligence network, and that they do their work. But many times you don't do it; or you can't do it. And even the best intelligence is not infallible.
Is that in reference to the September 11 attacks on the US?
Anywhere. I am not comparing it with anything. I am only talking about our intelligence. I am saying that even the best intelligence service is not infallible. And we are a hard-pressed nation, with lots of loopholes and gaps in our intelligence. And one of these gaps obviously allowed this thing to happen.
This is not the first time it has happened in recent times…
No. There have been many instances…
There was the Lashkar-e-Toiba attack on the Red Fort, then there was…
Red Fort, Sena Bhawan, Central Government Offices (CGO) complex, a couple of marketplaces…
But nothing seems to be done about it…
Like I said, even the best intelligence network, in spite of the right intentions, sometimes can't stop these things.
But the likes of Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani and others have been saying since, we had intercepted some cell phone messages and…
That was in the investigation. To be frank, I am not sure what Mr Advani has been saying, because I have not been watching television, and I was out of town. But I know that some statements have come out. The cell phone messages that you are talking about were discovered from the cell phones of the people who were killed in the attack, which were scrutinised and numbers of people in the list were procured and so on…. So none of the messages were really intercepted, except one from Pakistan, which asked whether it was necessary to do this (attack) at this time. It was some sort of a coded message, which was intercepted.
You do call it an intelligence failure, and obviously the security threat perception is very high…so what should we do to improve the internal security situation?
You want us to beef it up…that means get more intelligence.
Or a stronger and more thorough and extensive network?
Yeah, a better network. "Get more intelligence" means a better network. But you have to spend a lot of money for that, by the way. They, the intelligence officials, have a network of informants. These informants work for whoever pays them the best. That's the way of life. So you have to pay them more if you want more information. So you have to spend more money. These usually come from these unnumbered funds - unaccounted for funds. They have to be that way. That is the way to pick up human intelligence. The police also have their contacts. A lot of them are criminal contacts. Terrorism and crime are now interlinked. Therefore a lot of these contacts are criminal contacts. And then we have to wait for the right time to pick up a better network of technological intelligence. What you just mentioned about cell phone intercepts and such things, we have to work on that as well.
What do you think should be done now? All fingers seem to point towards Pakistan…
Yeah, right.
Should we then…first of all, do you also believe it is Pakistan?
Yes, yes.
You do?
I do.
Should we attack them now?
That's a decision that has to be taken by the government, but what we should immediately do, is that all these political parties should get together and form a national response. In this case, it is the job of both the government and the Opposition to take a step forward, meet together, and evolve a national response, precisely to answer the question that you are asking.
This is the basic question - what do we do now? This involves a lot of factors; the National Security Council (NSC) is there to give advice, but it has to be an overall national response, with inputs from the various concerned agencies that we have set up. And then we will have to frame our response. A military response is just one of the factors. There is the America factor. Already Mr Colin Powell has issued certain statements. These are all facts of life. You can't wish them away. And we have to take everything into account, sit down with cool heads, deliberate on everything, and then do what we have to do.
Also, I think, the government has to stop becoming a prisoner of its own rhetoric. They mustn't keep talking, making these statements, which seem to suggest a course of action, which may or may not turn out to be what they eventually do. I think the government must tone down its rhetoric. Like I said, the government and the Opposition must come together…the government must take the initiative to make everyone come together. And they must sit down quickly, with all the inputs available to them, and work out a decision.
There are a few takers for the proposition that our forces at the Line of Control (LoC) should start operations, if only to make our intentions clear…
I don't know what you mean. Do you mean crossing over the LoC? We are already at the LoC, and firing has been going on all the time. If you mean crossing over the LoC and firing a few rounds from there - that is a decision the government must take. That is a decision that this national response will have to take. We have to look at everything there. Can we see such an operation through? We have to discuss the possible repercussions. Everything. It could spark off a combat bigger than what we intend to do, and we have to handle that also. Let's see, it's not a decision that can be taken impulsively. We have to work out everything first.
In the eventuality of war, do you think the Indian forces are in a state of preparedness?
I would not like to comment on that at all.
Okay, a more general thing - would you say that the Indian forces are superior enough to the Pakistan forces…
I would not like to comment on the state of military preparedness at this point.
Okay, do you think we are equipped enough to handle a war on the terrains that we are talking about - strategically also?
As I said, military preparedness depends on various issues, including, by the way, procurement of weapons. Also, the modernisation of the army has a lot to do with it, in which sphere, let me tell you, we have not been spending enough for quite some time now. For the last decade or more. So all these factors have to be taken into account before we can make up our minds as to what we should do.
How long do you think we can sustain a full-fledged war, taking all these factors into account?
A full-fledged war…if we go across…if like people are saying we just go and hit the terrorist camps…. The terrorist camps are really "four tents and two tin sheds". If you knock them over, what's the huge deal anyway? You can go and pitch your tents in the next valley. So the point is, a strike on a terrorist camp has the possibility of escalating into a larger conflict. The question here is whether we are ready to face a larger, widespread conflict keeping our resources in mind, keeping our national preparation in mind, keeping the international situation in mind and keeping our own economy in mind? That's why I am saying, the first thing for everyone to do is to sit down and think this through. No questions can be raised or answered before that happens.
http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/dec/18/ca121801general.htm