PDA

View Full Version : Pakistans BADR A


Kya Bidu
December 12th, 2001, 02:13 PM
Some background
Pakistan's space programme started in 1961, with the establishment of SUPARCO (Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission) working under the PAEC (Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission). They launched their first rocket in 1962 to an altitude of 140 km. Approximately 150 launches have been conducted by them in the intervening 40 years. All of these launches were for atmospheric research or sounding rockets. SUPARCO currently does not have expertise to design and manufacture a satellite launch vehicle, and have to depend on foreign launchers to launch their satellites.

Their first satellite Badr A/I was launched by China on July 16, 1990, aboard its 'Long March 2' launcher. It was an 'experimental digital communications' satellite. The satellite reached 'end of life' on 21 Aug, 1990 due to onboard systems failure, and on 8 December, 1990 burned up in the atmosphere.

The second satellite Badr B/II was launched by a Russian Zenit 2 on 10 December, 2001, more than 11 years after their first satellite launch, and a delay of more than two years. It was co-launched along with the following

Meteor 3M-N1: Russian Meteorological sat.
Maroc-Tubsat: Technology Satellite from Morocco.
KOMPASS: Russian Geophysics Satellite
Reflektor: Joint Russian / USAF Satellite.

Badr B/II
The satellite itself is 51.0cm x 51.0cm x 46.5cm, with a mass of ~70 kg. It is in a near circular 1040 km sun-synchronous orbit with an inclination of 99.64 degrees, and orbital period of 110 minutes. The payload consists of a radiation dosimeter, an 'store and forward experiment' for email, a magnitometer, and a ccd camera. So in effect what this satellite does is measures radiation, measures magnetism, forwards email and takes badly blurred pictures - given the size of the onbaord ccd camera. :)

After the initial launch, there has been no news on satellite aquisition by ground tracking stations and data transmissions by the satellite, further there have been no other releases on the health of the satellite. If we do not see any press release in the next few days, the satellite MAY have a problem! Even the SUPARCO site does not have any updates, other than the news of satellite launch and succesful orbital insertion.

There is nothing extraordinary about the satellite, as one would naturally assume with first launches. This is a demonstrator with which pakistan hopes to build its satellite future. They have designed and constructed this in-house, and their capabilities, can only get better as far as satellite construction goes. However they are still to achieve any satellite launch capability, though the head of the SUPARCO says they will have one by 2003! I don't know how succesful they will be, but one can never know given the large Chinese inputs they are sure to receive. Launch capability means integrating several different technologies, such as fuels, guidance, orbital insertion, ground tracking, satellite construction etc... It is anybody's guess as to how succesful they can be in the space of 1 year.

Other things
Pakistan has other worries on its mind too. In 1983 they applied for and were awarded 5 slots to position geo stationary satellites. These were time bound and if by April 2003 they do not put a satellite in GSO they WILL LOOSE those slots, which can then be taken up by others. They had contracted with Alcatel of France for a GSO satellite, but AFAIK, the construction of such a satellite has not even begun yet!! If there is no satellite in the 38° orbit by April 2003, they will loose that slot! They have to find someone to construct a GSO sat and position it in GSO for them in slightly less than 1.5 years, looks impossible to me. Geosats are not available off the shelf, and they are not cheap. A geostat. launch is not cheap either.

There were also some rumors sometime back that pakistan had offered Russia about $130 mil to launch an earth observation satellite for it (possibly the RESURS-IS) which could double as a 'spy sat'. Though I'm not too sure about this. Firstly the RESURS has a resolution of 2m and that is not very useful as a spy satellite, admitedly though it is better than nothing. Secondly where would they get $120-140 million from? If it ever happened I guess they would have asked the Russians for a loan, and the Russians probably would have kicked them in their gonads and sent them packing. :D :D In all probability this is just a rumor. India too would have had a say in the matter.

All-in-all Badr B in the short term is nothing to worry about, however in the long term, if they can input enough money and scientific manpower into their space and R&D programmes (and I'm taking 100's of millions of dollars and 100's of thousands of manhours per year), then we should expect to see a half-decent paki spy satellite in the next 6-10 years. Caveat being they are not beneficiaries of Chinese largesse to their pet poodle (pakistan). BTW just FYI the ISRO projected budget this year is ~ $400 mil. It has never been below $ 100 million for the last few years, which is why we are seeing the results now.

All opinions mine of course...

----
Bas kya

GpeL
December 12th, 2001, 02:17 PM
Man.. you got some serious grey cells working for you.. wow.. I am impressed and salute you on your knowledge base.

GpeL
December 12th, 2001, 02:19 PM
After the initial launch, there has been no news on satellite aquisition by ground tracking stations and data transmissions by the satellite..



Very much the reason for my curiosity.. I knew you would have some inputs.

Ajit
December 12th, 2001, 06:50 PM
Seems like it is a stone of 70kgs. tied to a transmitter to establish comm. with earth..;).

I read somewhere ( mostly from Russian news agency reports ) that the Pakis are experimenting to first acquiring the capability to establish comm. link with a revolving satellite in space. This satellite BADR 2 has no other utility.

We haven't heard anything since the launch...so who knows what happened to it. Normally a sun-sync. satellite is immediately captured by the ground stations ...

vyomkeshsaxena
December 12th, 2001, 08:54 PM
"After the initial launch, there has been no news on satellite aquisition by ground tracking stations and data transmissions by the satellite, further there have been no other releases on the health of the satellite. If we do not see any press release in the next few days, the satellite MAY have a problem! Even the SUPARCO site does not have any updates, other than the news of satellite launch and succesful orbital insertion. "

GO TO http://www.suparco.gov.pk , IT SAYS THE PROJECT WAS SUCCESSFUL..and now dont say u cant rely on what they say..u've got to accept it.

look at the positive points of this launch tha main objectives behind the launc as stated by SUPARCO are

Indigenous development of low cost satellites and creation of necessary infrastructure for future development in this field.

Acquisition of know-how and technology for earth imaging by use of CCD sensors.

Acquisition of know-how and capability in the field of satellite attitude control and stabilization.

Encourage and stimulate interest of the country's academic and
scientific community in the peaceful uses of space.

Forging of closer links with counterpart agencies/organizations in other countries/regions.


now it was a humble start...even india had lotsa failures up in its sleeves...india's space programmes were very well looked-after by russian space agencies (former USSR)..whereas pakistan enjoys no such previleges..if u go down history..GSLV's cryogenic engines have been supplied by russia...and cryogenic engine is heart of any geo-stat launch vehicle...even SLV and PSLV's critical components were procurred from russia...though people say agni and prithvi r 100% indigenous than lemme make it clear that it incorporates some critical russian tech know-how...
as for pakistan the use od CCD sensors onboard its satellite is a postive aspect of this launch.CCD SENSORS which find place even in hubble telescopes r the most advanced and reliabe source to photograph imageries...also as the size suggests the age of micro-satellites is not far...we should, by heart, congratulate our enemy for its venture in space...

http://www.suparco.gov.pk/sat_badr2.htm

regarding claims of SLV by 2003...it is not possible taking into account pakistans space capabilties...but with reverse engg. of its IRBM's and with active input from china..it may be possible but not atleast by 2003
and regarding spy-sats.. u can get images by throwing bucks to many countries operating the same...;)

HEYB BIDU UR HIGH CLAIMS ON ARJUN TANKS AND ML-2 MISS.HAVE BEEN GROUNDED...VISIT THE THREAD CONCERNING IT FOR SOME INFORMATION REHAULING COURSE

Kya Bidu
December 12th, 2001, 09:48 PM
Now, now my paki friend, there is no need to compare yourselves to India everytime!!! I guess you did not read my post in its entirety. There is no disparaging the paki achievement, after 40 years of trying... :D

I made sure to check the SUPARCO site and other paki newspapers at the time of posting. The only news was of a succesful launch, and insertion. Therefore I stand by my statement. The mission is to measure radiation conduct SAFE experiment and generally do all the things you have listed in your post. When all these objectives are achieved, then it will be called a succesful mission. If you get news about it, do post it here, and I will applaud your paki efforts.

In the meantime, all I have written in my first post stands.

Re the 'spy satellites' please do go ahead and throw some money to get the same. First you have to have the money, and second you have to be able to persuade one of a select few nations to share their info with you. All I can say is good-luck to you... :D :D ;)

----
bas kya

PS: Do visit the Arjun thread soon. ALL of your BS has been shot down...

PPS: BTW I did not make any 'claims', I asked you to prove your fantasies, which you have not been able to do inspite of trying very hard.

vyomkeshsaxena
December 12th, 2001, 10:41 PM
space programme is complicated what abt 25 years bull shit DRDO'S MBT programme..and coming up with a tin canister:D :D

Kya Bidu
December 12th, 2001, 10:49 PM
nothing to argue so he goes for something ir-relevant in this thread

Stay off this thread if you don't have anything significant to contribute, don't pollute it with your Arjun BS. Talk about Arjun in the Arjun thread.

Do not disturb when superior intellects are discussing matters beyond your comprehension

---
bas kya

PS: Methinks vsaxena is a phukistani bullshitter, who agrees with me?

vyomkeshsaxena
December 12th, 2001, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kya Bidu
[B]Now, now my paki friend, there is no need to compare yourselves to India everytime!!! . There is no disparaging the paki achievement, after 40 years of trying... :D

well i was replying to this feature of urs...and intellect brain of 21 century...u consider urself smart by some cut n paste features and rarranging words...holy shit....what comments u want on this launch ...u want blue-print of the satellite...learn to encourage...
hey goota post a imp. article on taza khabar...this bull shit we will discuss later

vyomkeshsaxena
December 13th, 2001, 12:44 AM
and regarding ur grey cells...man as u r new to this site lemme make u clear abt. defence and taza khabar forum...this article of urs should be psted in latter and not former.....get it...only defence related points need to be decorated here not the civil issues...if u had anything WORTH contributing on current issues then show ur dick on taza khabar...and leave this forum for defence related issues only...and now dont say CCD camera is for spying :D :D :D
actually prob. yeh hui ki GPEL bhai applauded on ur cut n paste feature and u got on nerves...go babe..we have lotsa REAL intellect pool here...no need for VIRTUAL intelligence

Kya Bidu
December 13th, 2001, 09:08 AM
Cool down phukistani. You pretend to be an Indian, but defend phukistan with such passion to the exclusion of India. Even going so far as to praise phukistan and phukistanis at the expense of India. Thats not objectivity, thats a bias! Makes me suspicious.

As far as cut and paste goes, if I have to quote data and you call it cut and paste so be it. There is only so many ways to present data. Keep the arjun talk to the arjun thread and lets discuss the phukistani space capabilities here. Also if you think I have cut and pasted the entire article, I would like to see a web-page with the exact same wordings and analysis as mine. That post took some time and effort to write, and I have cross-checked with publicaly available data to make sure there are no mistakes. Typical phukistani behaviour pattern, denegrate anything that does not support your views. You don't have the capacity to do any research or carry out an intelligent conversation without abuse, or diverting to other topics.

Now do you have anything to add to my comment that there has been no reports of data aquisition from the satellite, or do you still think the mission is succesful after orbital insertion? I believe the satellite is a failure, and till some other evidence is shown to the contrary I stand by my opinion.

GpeL
December 13th, 2001, 09:30 AM
Bidu pai.. nicely tackled head on.. keep it up pal.. man you are frighteningly smart.. what do you do for a living? (I am guessing you invent something or other!!)

Ajit
December 13th, 2001, 10:26 AM
Of all that our Paki friend ( Vyomkesh ) has posted , I agree to his one point that we must congratulate them on their effort and have an encouraging tone.

Atleast such space endeavours will inspire their youth toward science and modernity , rather than getting wasted in some madrasa. Whatever be the fate of BADR 2 , I hope Pakis would keep themselves on the right track.

However , coming to the other points mentioned by him, I wonder why he thinks that the PSLVs and Indian Satellites have a high Russian content ( only the GSLV used the russian cryogenic engines ). There may be some imported electronic and other components , but this has nothing to do with the indegeneous manufacturing ability of India. India has made State-of-the-art Comm. satellites like INSAT and the world class IRS satellites. The recently launched TES satellite is supposed to be a 'spy satellite' with a resolution of 1 m.

Pakistan has miles to go before it can sleep....

Kya Bidu
December 13th, 2001, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Ajit
I agree to his one point that we must congratulate them on their effort and have an encouraging tone.

Ajit,

with all due respect, I could care a rats a$$ about paki efforts in the space arena. They will get no congratulations from me. If they fail I will delight in pointing it out and tormenting them, and if they succeed, I will accept it without comment.

As regards their youth, if saxena is anything to go by, they are irredeemable. Let them rot in their jihadi madrassas and in cargo containers in afghanistan. Who cares if they are wasting their time? It is not india's business to think about the welfare of phukistani youth.

Lets move away from politics now. (if need be please open a separate thread and I will gladly participate there)

phukistanis desparately want to believe that all of India's achivements are sourced from elsewhere. Sure some tech comes from abroad, which our scientists learned when they were deputed to certain organisations. But saying the Vikas engine is French is about as true as saying a Toyota Camry is a European car. Sure the design principles (eg: engine, pass. compartment etc...) are the same, but thats where the similarity ends. The Vikas is an Indian development, and the Cryogenic motors in development are also purely India R&D. If it was so easy to get technology, we would have had our launcers ready in the 1970's just by buying Russian / European technology. There was absolutely no hinderance at that time. No MTCR, no NPT etc...

No our launchers have a painful learning curve, where we have had our successes and failures, and that more than anything goes to show, all our launch technology is developed in house.

The phukistanis have always had succesful first launches of their rockets, ghauri/shaeen etc. I think they are the only nation in the world which has not had a problem with their test launches. Really makes one wonder if they are that good... or did they purchase off-the-shelf components with a chinese assembly manual.

If they launch their SLV in 2003, without any problems, I for one will certainly think the 'delay' was due to their difficulty in translating from chinese!!!

Below are the picture of their only 2 satellites - one already a failure, and no news about the second one - three days after launch...

badr a
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/SSHP/PIX/BADRA.GIF

badr b (Probably being mated to the launch carousel)
http://www.suparco.gov.pk/BADR_B22.JPG

Defering to your request I do wish them all the the best. They deserve some success after 40 years of effort and more than 200 launches - as per the SUPARCO site...

----
bas kya

PS: Gpel, hats off to you sir. I look forward to reading some of your technical commentary on avaiation...

Ajit
December 17th, 2001, 11:40 AM
Still no news about BADR 2. Is there any Pakistani on this forum ( Vyoamkesh ? ) who can appraise the status, as to what happened to the satellite.

BABU_HYDERABADI
May 7th, 2005, 08:59 PM
I think we must have had russian tech(but not like pukis just painting korean missiles and saying that they are ours), but agar pura gyan hotha tho we would not have had failures in PSLV launches, and not only that we could have had started with GSLV instead of going through the painful process of going from PSLV then to GSLV.
what do u say guys
-babu

Dilliwalla
May 7th, 2005, 09:22 PM
Dost, give credit where its due...

- Pakistan gets a lot of tech favour from US, see that "Father of the bomb" has had no investigation done on him what so ever....

- Most of their launches have been done by lots of foreign help.
(like we invented cryogenics ourselves... ayeh)

- They sometimes (if not most times) will do stuff just to proove, "what India can do, we can do too."


We dont have any genetic superiority over them, or anyone for that matter. So there's a slight chance that this was really developed without 'help' or 'purchase'.

But do give credit where its due... ;)

Indian
May 8th, 2005, 07:42 AM
holy shit ...
i never knew that vyomi is a pakistani !


:D