IMF Head Rape Case

[Shringarey]

NEW YORK: The Guinean maid, who accused former IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn of sexual assault, was also working as a prostitute, a media report has claimed.

'The New York Post' reported that the 32-year-old maid at the Sofitel Hotel was doing double duty as a prostitute, collecting cash on the side from male guests.

"There is information... of her getting extraordinary tips, if you know what I mean," a source close to the defence investigation told The Post.

The woman also had "a lot of her expenses -- hair braiding, salon expenses -- paid for by men not related to her," the source said.

Strauss-Kahn, 62, was accused of forcing the maid at the Sofitel hotel in Manhattan to perform oral sex.

He was taken into custody a few minutes before his Air France flight departed for Paris in May. Strauss-Kahn has claimed that their sexual encounter was consensual.

The source said that immigrants from Guinea had been targeted by the maid.

"We have people who have been victimized, who have claimed she ripped them off. Nice working people from her neighborhood," a source said.

This week the case against Strauss-Kahn unraveled quickly as it emerged the maid, who accused him, has been lying and has criminal connections.

On Friday, Strauss-Kahn was released from house arrest and is now allowed to travel inside the US. While the case against him has been weakened, the charges still stand.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Maid-in-Strauss-Kahn-case-working-as-hooker-Report/articleshow/9085847.cms

One more case against men. A woman has to say she was abused, and the guy is jailed. Simple. Lucky he got away because of some diligence on Police. In India, you are not innocent till proven guilty - YOU ARE GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT!!

Never trust women unless you have checked and double checked

[PeaceSeeker]

NEW YORK: The Guinean maid, who accused former IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn of sexual assault, was also working as a prostitute, a media report has claimed.

'The New York Post' reported that the 32-year-old maid at the Sofitel Hotel was doing double duty as a prostitute, collecting cash on the side from male guests.

"There is information... of her getting extraordinary tips, if you know what I mean," a source close to the defence investigation told The Post.

The woman also had "a lot of her expenses -- hair braiding, salon expenses -- paid for by men not related to her," the source said.

Strauss-Kahn, 62, was accused of forcing the maid at the Sofitel hotel in Manhattan to perform oral sex.

He was taken into custody a few minutes before his Air France flight departed for Paris in May. Strauss-Kahn has claimed that their sexual encounter was consensual.

The source said that immigrants from Guinea had been targeted by the maid.

"We have people who have been victimized, who have claimed she ripped them off. Nice working people from her neighborhood," a source said.

This week the case against Strauss-Kahn unraveled quickly as it emerged the maid, who accused him, has been lying and has criminal connections.

On Friday, Strauss-Kahn was released from house arrest and is now allowed to travel inside the US. While the case against him has been weakened, the charges still stand.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Maid-in-Strauss-Kahn-case-working-as-hooker-Report/articleshow/9085847.cms

One more case against men. A woman has to say she was abused, and the guy is jailed. Simple. Lucky he got away because of some diligence on Police. In India, you are not innocent till proven guilty - YOU ARE GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT!!

Never trust women unless you have checked and double checked
and then checked once more. and still, do not trust.

[echarcha]

This was expected. I am pretty sure that this was some sort of conspiracy to nail the Strauss fellow.

Same case like Shiney Ahuja .. first cry rape, then say no.

[PeaceSeeker]

i think law is so much bent in favor of women bcoz a woman would take such an step only as a last resort.

it must have been statistically proven somewhere, maybe in fundamentals/faiths/religions or in most advanced human civilizations.

:dontknow:

it is said that to win a woman's trust is like attaining god. its therefore almost impossible. easier route is never to trust. which is what all practical systems and human beings recommend. some go a step ahead and recommend them to be used and thrown.

[chaiwaala]

This was expected. I am pretty sure that this was some sort of conspiracy to nail the Strauss fellow.

Same case like Shiney Ahuja .. first cry rape, then say no.

Sutradhar ji, please, no spinning conspiracy theories about somebody wanting to nail this dude. This dude happens to be a well-known cad, casually using assorted women for his sexual gratification.

Here was a woman who was taking advantage of a man to make money and the method she chose was to cry rape. New York police handled his case rough and tough. It's legitimate to ask questions about their handling, but please, no conspiracy theories. They worked based on their understanding of the situation at any given point in time.


Strauss-Kahn Accuser’s Call Alarmed Prosecutors (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/nyregion/one-revelation-after-another-undercut-strauss-kahn-accusers-credibility.html?hp=&pagewanted=all)

Published: July 1, 2011

Twenty-eight hours after a housekeeper at the Sofitel New York said she was sexually assaulted by Dominique Strauss-Kahn, she spoke by phone to a boyfriend in an immigration jail in Arizona.

Investigators with the Manhattan district attorney’s office learned the call had been recorded and had it translated from a “unique dialect of Fulani,” a language from the woman’s native country, Guinea, according to a well-placed law enforcement official.

When the conversation was translated — a job completed only this Wednesday — investigators were alarmed: “She says words to the effect of, ‘Don’t worry, this guy has a lot of money. I know what I’m doing,’ ” the official said.

It was another ground-shifting revelation in a continuing series of troubling statements, fabrications and associations that unraveled the case and upended prosecutors’ view of the woman.

Contd ...

[chaiwaala]

i think law is so much bent in favor of women bcoz a woman would take such an step only as a last resort.

it must have been statistically proven somewhere, maybe in fundamentals/faiths/religions or in most advanced human civilizations.

:dontknow:

it is said that to win a woman's trust is like attaining god. its therefore almost impossible. easier route is never to trust. which is what all practical systems and human beings recommend. some go a step ahead and recommend them to be used and thrown.

Our dowry laws are a fine example of twisted laws. Any new bride, if the marriage goes sour, can screw her husband using these laws. Some bizarre shit has been done with our dowry laws and once the wife lodges a police complaint (often instigated by her own family), the onus falls on the husband to prove himself innocent. They seem to have thrown the legal precept of 'innocent until proven guilty' out of the window, in this scenario.

[Shringarey]

I agree man. Don't deal with women, unless they are immediate family. Never trust a woman - don't even give a chance. Booom!! the fall on your neck could be really gruesome.

Also, I believe (but I'm not sure as I am not a woman), that women have no feeling of guilt. If a guy hurts someone, he may or maynot feel guilty, but a woman normally does not feel guilty. Take it from me.

[swami]

Inner buauty .... bah !! Everybody is ugly... women... even more so... Extremely "Jealous"... "grabby"... "opportunist" ... "proud (narcissistic)" .... "mean" .... and last but not the least "ruthless" .... So much for inner beauty.

So only beauty that matters - Outward beauty ... skin deep is enough.

Now coming to point of the thread...
Really Beautiful women look beautiful for a longer range of time ... say from 18 (below this they are called girls?) to even 50 or 55. Others are ok... are tolerably beautiful from say 18 to 27 and sometimes till 35 also.


.

I agree man. Don't deal with women, unless they are immediate family. Never trust a woman - don't even give a chance. Booom!! the fall on your neck could be really gruesome.

Also, I believe (but I'm not sure as I am not a woman), that women have no feeling of guilt. If a guy hurts someone, he may or maynot feel guilty, but a woman normally does not feel guilty. Take it from me.

The above is what Krantikari pai wrote in one of the threads and both of you are right :up:

[PeaceSeeker]

this thread is really turning out to be bitter.

what is to be noted is that the benefits of this legal bias is not reaching those women who really need it - the really suppressed ones. rather its being taken advantage of by smart educated women.

also to be noted is that if every other woman starts taking advantage of this legal bias, marriage would be gone for a toss. percentage wise, the number of woman using this law to her 'advantage' is not much [in many cases, the husband has probably surrendered to her whims since he knows the wife to be a 'smart' woman]

all said and done, one thing should certainly not go unchecked is charging someone with something serious and backing out later without facing repercussions of any kind. our law and corrupt policemen are equally to be blamed.

[Shringarey]

also to be noted is that if every other woman starts taking advantage of this legal bias, marriage would be gone for a toss.

a) Marriages ARE going for a toss
b) Often the fall guy is NOT the husband - as in this case.

There are men, many, many men, rotting in prison for no rhyme or reason. Just because a woman said something, it is considered true. Also, the woman has NO REGRETS OR PITY.

Sad, sad, sad................

[PeaceSeeker]

also to be noted is that if every other woman starts taking advantage of this legal bias, marriage would be gone for a toss.

a) Marriages ARE going for a toss
b) Often the fall guy is NOT the husband - as in this case.

There are men, many, many men, rotting in prison for no rhyme or reason. Just because a woman said something, it is considered true. Also, the woman has NO REGRETS OR PITY.

Sad, sad, sad................
i mean marriage as an institution is not crumbling or becoming unpopular. look around. whatever the inside story, u wont find many men/women above 30 in india unmarried [i m talking about mainstream/middle-class india not the hip one]

[Shringarey]

i mean marriage as an institution is not crumbling or becoming unpopular. look around. whatever the inside story, u wont find many men/women above 30 in india unmarried [i m talking about mainstream/middle-class india not the hip one]

They will. Be sure they will. When law sides with conniving lying women, they will. It happenned in the West first, where all these laws were enacted. Women took advantage of them. Marriages collapsed.

India is a little behind. Marriages will collapse here too. After all, for every cruel woman who succeeds, aided my partisan laws, there are 100 more enthused to try. But slowly men realize it. They balk. They can do nothing. So they do not marry. Those that have married, find their marriages broken up due to legally inspired cruelty. Marriages break down. They will, in India too, my friend.

Coming back to the case, I dont know how many men must be behind prison rotting because the woman blackmailed them and they refused to pay. I dont think the police will open those cases again. Those men will continue to rot.

I dont think the maid will be prosecuted and punished. She will disappear for a few months and start her natak all over again.

Law...... Law........ Law.......!!!

[PeaceSeeker]

in india, marriage will not crumble. a miniscule reduction in percentage at-most perhaps.
middle india lives between west and cave-culture at the same time. it has learnt to live that way. this india moves here n there but largely maintains its identity. like a semisolid substance moving within a defined boundary.

[badriprasad]

Fear in heart so as to not cause offense to our female members ... let me paraphrase essence of it all ... never place yourself in a situation where a woman can exploit you for faith/trust you placed upon/in her ... NEVER ... never if you can help it ... she will destroy you first opportunity you present to her ... family members, woman you decided to trust with your life, and Rakhiji, Dollyji, Mausiji and rest of our female members being only exceptions.

Many good women out there ... not that many.

[chaiwaala]

what is to be noted is that the benefits of this legal bias is not reaching those women who really need it - the really suppressed ones. rather its being taken advantage of by smart educated women.


Our dowry laws are shitty, and there is plenty of evidence by now to show that vindictive women in souring marriages have used it to harass husbands/soon-to-be-ex-husbands.

We must look at the other side of the coin too. An extraordinarily large number of rape victims in our country (real rape victims, not someone crying rape for material gain) get no justice at all and the perpetrators go scot-free.

[Rakhi]

Never trust women unless you have checked and double checked

Never trust anyone. Period. Its got nothing to do with being a man or a woman. I am sure you have heard plenty of cases where women are raped, yet the guy is not convicted.

[Rakhi]

I agree man. Don't deal with women, unless they are immediate family. Never trust a woman - don't even give a chance. Booom!! the fall on your neck could be really gruesome.

Also, I believe (but I'm not sure as I am not a woman), that women have no feeling of guilt. If a guy hurts someone, he may or maynot feel guilty, but a woman normally does not feel guilty. Take it from me.

Do you have any base for what you are saying? :rolleyes:

[Parijataka]

Wow, looks like many of you have had bitter experience with women...:)!

There are men who are casanovas then there are women who have relationships with many men; men and women who are unscrupulous and untrustworthy. Like Rakhi said it is not about the gender.

[Shringarey]

Parijataka,

it is nice (and politically correct) to say that both men and women are unscrupulous. It is true also.

There is a difference, though. A man (male), if he does something wrong, has a feeling of guilt. Womwn usually don't. That makes rectification impossible.

Rakhi,

You have asked me about this guilt thing. Specifically, you asked whether I have any basis to say women don't feel guilt. My basis is based on personal observation only (small sample, I admit).

So lwt me ask you something - if you have hurt a man badly, with/without meaning to, would you -

a) As a woman feel guilty some time later, and apologize?
b) Talk it over with another woman, enter a woman-woman pact, and say "No Need to opologize!"

Answer honestly. Answer for yourself and for women you know.

[swami]

Yes from school teacher,classmates to colleagues all were bitter.The only female I like my whole life is my mother who has never been different with me even in my difficult times.If the whole world is against me I have my mother at my side and I am proud of her for giving me all the inspiration and backing whenever I need them.So lets leave mothers out of this.

Females as Krantikari bhai said are the worst creature on the earth.They may talk to you nicely but in their mind they are scheming against you.They wont hesitate to take all the benifits in the name of weak gender.
When you make a mistake they wont spare you.I just keep wondering what if nature had made females physically strong, men would have been wiped out of the earth long back.

For more on females, their politics etc I suggest you search for Shringarey's post and threads.

Sorry females, pardon me for speaking out the truth ;)
Wow, looks like many of you have had bitter experience with women...:)!

There are men who are casanovas then there are women who have relationships with many men; men and women who are unscrupulous and untrustworthy. Like Rakhi said it is not about the gender.

[Shringarey]

I agree. When I was in school, there was a guy called Amar. He was weak in studies and I would help him. His mom would dance behind me - Shringarey, Shringarey.

Then we got jobs. I went thru bad times. She did not want me to meet Amar as I was vice ridden. Once I went to Amar's house, she shut the door saying Amar was not there.

Some years passed. I started to do well. I had contacts. I became a man of the world. Her younger son Ghamar is having problems settling. Now she once again dances - "Shringarey, you never come home? Heh heh heh"

Kya Pagalpan ki goli khaayee hai kya main ne?

I smile back. I was young and trusted her then. Not now. I'll smile at her. Lovingly..... But I won't trust her. And I'll do everything for her short of help.

[Shringarey]

Another story. I was in Std XI - Junior college.That time I was young and foolish, and had a crazy fantasy - I wanted to be the greatest mathematician ever. I wanted to be greater than Gauss and Fermat and Abel - than all of them together! The crazy part was, I actually believed I could do it!!! (I was 16 yrs then).

With this obsession, I would bunk classes and attend only Library. I read and read. I did not bother to shave. I didnt go home. My hair was not combed. I looked like some zonked goonda.

Now several guys and girs started making fun of me - the way I dressed. It did not matter. I was in my own world.

Because I would often be sleepy, I would go to have tea. I would go with a guy called Handsome. He would tease a girl called Lovely. I did not know it. When we would go to have tea, if Lovely was there, he would make some "signs" to her, unbeknowest to me. She got angry. She complained to the college dada. She put my name first (probably becos of my attire). The Dada came and thrashed me.

I was shocked. Whenever I would see Lovely or Dada, I would move aside, go to Library and study. After a few months, the facts became obvious that I was not involved. The Dada apologized (tho he did ask me why i did not wear proper dress). Lovely did not.

Years passed. One day I met Lovely at a marriage function. I did not recognize her. She was not the skinny girl, but a woman of the world. She did not recognize me (I think). I was suited-booted and a young man of enterprise and all mathematical ambitions gone. Suddenly, I was introduced to her by someone. She looked at me and said "Were you in JagatNarain College?" I said yes. Then she told me her name. I suddenly realized that she was the same girl who got me thrashed. I asked her "Are you the girl who had got me beaten up?" She laughed and said "I dont remember, it was long ago."

SHE DID REMEMBER. If she didn';t she would have said, "My God! No". Her answer told me she remembered. But she felt no guilt. No apology.

Kya bolta??

[Rakhi]

Rakhi,

You have asked me about this guilt thing. Specifically, you asked whether I have any basis to say women don't feel guilt. My basis is based on personal observation only (small sample, I admit).

So lwt me ask you something - if you have hurt a man badly, with/without meaning to, would you -

a) As a woman feel guilty some time later, and apologize?
b) Talk it over with another woman, enter a woman-woman pact, and say "No Need to opologize!"

Answer honestly. Answer for yourself and for women you know.

Shring, if its just based on your personal observation, then I must contradict and say that what you have concluded is not necessarily right.

Coming to your question, if I have hurt some one, be it a man or a woman, I have in the past apologized and will do so even in the future.
I have also mentioned this in one of your threads somewhere here. I have seen the rock bottom because of a man. He neither apologized nor felt guilty; it took me years to even think about trying to forget that episode. I have come across men (at work) who told me that they were unmarried/not-committed just to ask for a date, turns out they were.

For a moment lets forget the gender and see in general how it works. I have come across many men who take pleasure in making a woman feel uncomfortable, be it by deeds or by words. There are few who hurt them bad. At the end of day its not the gender, its an individual. Your guru/role model is also a woman if I am not mistaken. So, women are not bad, some women are. men are not bad, some men are.
It took me over a decade to realize this. I hope some day you will too.

EDIT/Add: This doesnt mean I dont have any good friends. It means, I still have the sense of what is right and what is wrong. And yes, every human being goes through guilt. Whether they act on it or not is a different discussion. And from what I experienced in the past, this also has got nothing to do with gender.

[PeaceSeeker]

Yes from school teacher,classmates to colleagues all were bitter.The only female I like my whole life is my mother who has never been different with me even in my difficult times.If the whole world is against me I have my mother at my side and I am proud of her for giving me all the inspiration and backing whenever I need them.So lets leave mothers out of this.

Females as Krantikari bhai said are the worst creature on the earth.They may talk to you nicely but in their mind they are scheming against you.They wont hesitate to take all the benifits in the name of weak gender.
When you make a mistake they wont spare you.I just keep wondering what if nature had made females physically strong, men would have been wiped out of the earth long back.

For more on females, their politics etc I suggest you search for Shringarey's post and threads.

Sorry females, pardon me for speaking out the truth ;)
:D bahut dard bhari chot khayi hai lagta hai.
one person's mother or sister is another person's no one. so when u say all are bad, it better include ALL.

not all women are bad. but most of them stand by their companion[s] only till the going is good. or lets say till the going is 'not bad'. in most cases, if the situation is bad enough, she will ditch if she has a better alternative considering all factors. only a rare phenomenon like Savitri can fight Yamraj to get her man back. Or a Janaki accompanying Shri Ram for vanwas.
men can slip on SEX front. but otherwise are much more decent. look at me for example.

[PeaceSeeker]

Our dowry laws are shitty, and there is plenty of evidence by now to show that vindictive women in souring marriages have used it to harass husbands/soon-to-be-ex-husbands.

We must look at the other side of the coin too. An extraordinarily large number of rape victims in our country (real rape victims, not someone crying rape for material gain) get no justice at all and the perpetrators go scot-free.
law is ok i think. the same police who do not arrest an mla accused of rape by a girl, rush to arrest a man accused by a wife of harassment or a shiney accused of rape. so is the law bad or r the authorities screwing an already screwed system:dontknow:

[Rakhi]

I am amazed at the wrath you guys hold against us women! To think that the same woman is your wife, mother of your children and share your life with...absurd. I wonder if you told your better half about how you feel about women:confused:.

[Sane Less]

I am amazed at the wrath you guys hold against us women! To think that the same woman is your wife, mother of your children and share your life with...absurd. I wonder if you told your better half about how you feel about women:confused:.
Now now... don't put all echans into the same boat... don't go back on your own post a little while earlier. Some guys here have had their hearts broken... hell, so have I. But that doesn't mean all girls are bad. Hell, it does not even mean that any girl is bad. We are human beings... there are no good or bad human beings... we just think differently every second of the day.

For e.g., that girl, Lovely, in Shrinagar pai's post above, her mind must have been elsewhere when he asked her to remember the incident and she truly must not have remembered or was remembering about a guy who broke her heart at that specific instant. Five minutes later when she actually remembered the incident and seeked out Shrinragey pai to apologize, he must have left the reception... with hot hate-filled thoughts. Now whose fault is it?

[Rakhi]

Now now... don't put all echans into the same boat... don't go back on your own post a little while earlier. Some guys here have had their hearts broken... hell, so have I. But that doesn't mean all girls are bad. Hell, it does not even mean that any girl is bad. We are human beings... there are no good or bad human beings... we just think differently every second of the day.



Breaks my heart to see these guys use words like 'creatures' when referring to women Sane. Is this how most men view women as? "Creatures?" Looks like there are only two sets of women; One: a mom. two: a worthless whore who is selfish and is concerned only about her; to hell with the rest of the world.

So all of us, with the exception of mom, fall into the second category then?

I am not kidding, I am truly saddened to learn that most men view us this way. Glad to know that you are an exception.

[PeaceSeeker]

Another story. I was in Std XI - Junior college.That time I was young and foolish, and had a crazy fantasy - I wanted to be the greatest mathematician ever. I wanted to be greater than Gauss and Fermat and Abel - than all of them together! The crazy part was, I actually believed I could do it!!! (I was 16 yrs then).

With this obsession, I would bunk classes and attend only Library. I read and read. I did not bother to shave. I didnt go home. My hair was not combed. I looked like some zonked goonda.

Now several guys and girs started making fun of me - the way I dressed. It did not matter. I was in my own world.

Because I would often be sleepy, I would go to have tea. I would go with a guy called Handsome. He would tease a girl called Lovely. I did not know it. When we would go to have tea, if Lovely was there, he would make some "signs" to her, unbeknowest to me. She got angry. She complained to the college dada. She put my name first (probably becos of my attire). The Dada came and thrashed me.

I was shocked. Whenever I would see Lovely or Dada, I would move aside, go to Library and study. After a few months, the facts became obvious that I was not involved. The Dada apologized (tho he did ask me why i did not wear proper dress). Lovely did not.

Years passed. One day I met Lovely at a marriage function. I did not recognize her. She was not the skinny girl, but a woman of the world. She did not recognize me (I think). I was suited-booted and a young man of enterprise and all mathematical ambitions gone. Suddenly, I was introduced to her by someone. She looked at me and said "Were you in JagatNarain College?" I said yes. Then she told me her name. I suddenly realized that she was the same girl who got me thrashed. I asked her "Are you the girl who had got me beaten up?" She laughed and said "I dont remember, it was long ago."

SHE DID REMEMBER. If she didn';t she would have said, "My God! No". Her answer told me she remembered. But she felt no guilt. No apology.

Kya bolta??
i dont know how much seriously to take a school/college going boys or girls but its true that a woman who does not want to apologize or admit her fault for a certain mistake [for whatever reason] will not apologize for that mistake of hers come what may. maybe she is a different person for a different mistake [not sure]. draupadi insulted duryodhan but did not apologize. she actually had no right to get so worked-up on she being insulted by kauravas. she did the same thing to duryodhan so easily. both were insults. but she gets so worked up that she makes pandavas take vow and what not. and finally the vows are fulfilled.

[Sane Less]

Breaks my heart to see these guys use words like 'creatures' when referring to women Sane. Is this how most men view women as? "Creatures?" Looks like there are only two sets of women; One: a mom. two: a worthless whore who is selfish and is concerned only about her; to hell with the rest of the world.

So all of us, with the exception of mom, fall into the second category then?

I am not kidding, I am truly saddened to learn that most men view us this way. Glad to know that you are an exception.
No no no no... I am not an exception... I am the norm. These guys are the exception:D

It is human nature to be selfish... in fact, it must be the only asset that human kind has that let them survive this long... or else we would have long gone the way of the dodo. And every woman is a mom (usually, though I agree with RGV that beautiful women should not become moms... poora maza kirkira kar deta hai)... So, if Sawmri pai has respect only for his mom and no other woman... then correspondingly there is some one else who respects his/her own mom and then Swamir pai's mom falls into the other category. There is no logic nor rationale in such thinking.

Here's my challenge to the guys who are against women, show me the worst woman that you have ever met... and I will show you an angel:D

[PeaceSeeker]

though I agree with RGV that beautiful women should not become moms... poora maza kirkira kar deta hai

i do not entirely agree. a beautiful woman can become a maal aunty very soon after she is a mom. aish is going to be one. just keep ur eyes off her for say, an year.

[Sane Less]

i do not entirely agree. a beautiful woman can become a maal aunty very soon after she is a mom. aish is going to be one. just keep ur eyes off her for say, an year.
Problem is, by the time she comes back to acting... she will be an old hag. Take the example of Madhuri Dixit, Shilpa Shirdokar, Rati Agnihotri... who else. All disappointing... one movie in old age and gone.

[PeaceSeeker]

Breaks my heart to see these guys use words like 'creatures' when referring to women Sane. Is this how most men view women as? "Creatures?" Looks like there are only two sets of women; One: a mom. two: a worthless whore who is selfish and is concerned only about her; to hell with the rest of the world.

So all of us, with the exception of mom, fall into the second category then?

I am not kidding, I am truly saddened to learn that most men view us this way. Glad to know that you are an exception.
now now,pls do not get worked up. whoever used the term 'creature' did not mean to compare woman with low level living beings. it was just used there vis a vis opposite sex. men and women both r creatures.

[jeetiaf]

:D bahut dard bhari chot khayi hai lagta hai.
one person's mother or sister is another person's no one. so when u say all are bad, it better include ALL.

not all women are bad. but most of them stand by their companion[s] only till the going is good. or lets say till the going is 'not bad'. in most cases, if the situation is bad enough, she will ditch if she has a better alternative considering all factors. only a rare phenomenon like Savitri can fight Yamraj to get her man back. Or a Janaki accompanying Shri Ram for vanwas.
men can slip on SEX front. but otherwise are much more decent. look at me for example.

but this is too much to expect from woman to be in the sinking boat. isnt it? how sure are you that men will not do so in case such thing happens:dontknow:

rest is all human, it takes all sort of people in this world to make it. arent there are equal number of men who ditched their wives, NRI cases in Punjab are one set of examples:)


jeetIAF

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

Sorry to be so blunt, but -

i) I don't hate Dalits, but I resent reservation system. Most of us here have got screwed by it one time or another

ii) I don't hate laborours - I hate Union laws/systems which create problems for everyone

iii) I don't hate women per se. I hate the system that says that if a woman makes a complaint, the man is guilty unless proven innocent. A system that allows a woman to go scot free even after she has ruined a guy (The Fulani woman in this case WILL NOT be punished). A system that allows a woman to behave any which way she wants, while the guy has always to take the blame.

[PeaceSeeker]

but this is too much to expect from woman to be in the sinking boat. isnt it? how sure are you that men will not do so in case such thing happens:dontknow:

rest is all human, it takes all sort of people in this world to make it. arent there are equal number of men who ditched there wife's, NRI cases in Punjab are one set of examples:)


jeetIAF
i cant speak for others, but according to my own opinion of myself, if i hold someone's hand with vishwas [or someone hold's mine or both held each other's], i will not leave it come what may. but like chaiwala said, i dont know if i should be so sure of myself if the boat actually starts sinking.

[PeaceSeeker]

Rakhi,

Sorry to be so blunt, but -


Attention MyLord [Rakhi]
Men apologize without even being asked to. Hence proved.
:D

[Rakhi]

Here's my challenge to the guys who are against women, show me the worst woman that you have ever met... and I will show you an angel:D

This is why I want us to meet once when we are old and have nothing to do in life ;). I will buy you beer and you can buy me cosmopolitan:). We can then also talk about why Santa and God are not sem sem.

now now,pls do not get worked up. whoever used the term 'creature' did not mean to compare woman with low level living beings. it was just used there vis a vis opposite sex. men and women both r creatures.

Yeah, what ever PS.

[Rakhi]

Never trust women unless you have checked and double checked

Never trust a woman - don't even give a chance. Booom!! the fall on your neck could be really gruesome.

Also, I believe (but I'm not sure as I am not a woman), that women have no feeling of guilt. If a guy hurts someone, he may or maynot feel guilty, but a woman normally does not feel guilty. Take it from me.

Rakhi,

Sorry to be so blunt, but -

iii) I don't hate women per se. I hate the system that says that if a woman makes a complaint, the man is guilty unless proven innocent. A system that allows a woman to go scot free even after she has ruined a guy (The Fulani woman in this case WILL NOT be punished). A system that allows a woman to behave any which way she wants, while the guy has always to take the blame.

Well, I notice that your above posts does reflect that you hate women and not just the system.

Shring, at the end of day you can hold what ever opinion you want about women. I will make what ever attempt I can to prove that not all women are bad and are not trust worthy.

[PeaceSeeker]

This is why I want us to meet once when we are old and have nothing to do in life ;). I will buy you beer and you can buy me cosmopolitan:). We can then also talk about why Santa and God are not sem sem.

sane is refusing to give bhaav or daal ghaas to even aish once she is old. link (http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showpost.php?p=567156&postcount=32).

[Sane Less]

sane is refusing to give bhaav or daal ghaas to even aish once she is old. link (http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showpost.php?p=567156&postcount=32).
As if Madhuri Dixit, Shilpa Shirdokar, Rati Agnihotri mujhe ghaas dalengey:D

[swami]

Sorry to hurt you but this is one of the facts of life.
Would like to add maybe there are exceptions and would love to see them ;)

Breaks my heart to see these guys use words like 'creatures' when referring to women Sane. Is this how most men view women as? "Creatures?" Looks like there are only two sets of women; One: a mom. two: a worthless whore who is selfish and is concerned only about her; to hell with the rest of the world.

So all of us, with the exception of mom, fall into the second category then?

I am not kidding, I am truly saddened to learn that most men view us this way. Glad to know that you are an exception.

Well, I notice that your above posts does reflect that you hate women and not just the system.

Shring, at the end of day you can hold what ever opinion you want about women. I will make what ever attempt I can to prove that not all women are bad and are not trust worthy.

[Sane Less]

Sorry to hurt you but this is one of the facts of life.
Would like to add maybe there are exceptions and would love to see them ;)
I think you should heed Gandhi for once... just this time. Make the change you want to see in women in yourself:D

And nahi re... I am not talking about sex-change here:D

[swami]

I think you and Rakhi want me to talk sweet sweet things,but what to do truth is always bitter ;)
I think you should heed Gandhi for once... just this time. Make the change you want to see in women in yourself:D

And nahi re... I am not talking about sex-change here:D

[Rakhi]

I think you and Rakhi want me to talk sweet sweet things,but what to do truth is always bitter ;)

Sweet talk?

I was trying to put some sense into you ;).
Sorry, this is the truth and I am sure it stings!

[swami]

Sweet talk?

I was trying to put some sense into you ;).
Sorry, this is the truth and I am sure it stings!

Then I can call you mom ;)

[badriprasad]

this is the truth and I am sure it stings!

:smartass: @ rakhiji. :rofl:




:) Rakhiji ... I love women ... I respect women ... but I tend to agree with Shringji ... not because he is a fellow man ... not because of personal experiences ... but because there are just too many instances of women being vindictive, cunning, deceptive, and conniving (edited) because society and law let them get away with it. There are millions of innocent men out there who have been destroyed by pretending to caring and loving wives.

Some (edited) have turned sacred institution of marriage and intimacy to a fine art of lure to phasao good innocent men ... for money. Some Indian women are beginning to beat some western sisters by miles.

Rules which were placed to protect the innocent among women are being used, abused and flaunted by some vindictive, cunning, deceptive and conniving (edited) to settle personal scores, and without a shred of guilt.

A certain religion is accused of exploiting women ... I can assure you ... men of this religion love their mothers, sisters, daughters and wives as much as of any other religion ... we ought to have not a doubt. But they have certain rules in place for women to follow ... these laws are there for a reason ... don't you think so? Women are not just not one ... women are all the pillars upon which rests well being of our society. Women gone astray is a society gone to dogs ... and its happening in our own India.

Rakhiji ... I do apologise to you ... you do not know one man who has been a victim is your good fortune. Perhaps you should read Shringji to know better.

.........................

[krantikari]

Woman are more ruthless than men. Check any house hold. Yours too.



.

[chaiwaala]

law is ok i think. the same police who do not arrest an mla accused of rape by a girl, rush to arrest a man accused by a wife of harassment or a shiney accused of rape. so is the law bad or r the authorities screwing an already screwed system:dontknow:

Peace Bhau, I have read several articles about how the dowry laws can be misused by Indian women. Authorities started with a good intention I think. To reduce dowry demands. But the way the law was written turned out to be problematic.

I cannot speak with confidence on this topic since I am not in the legal profession. The exact mechanics, the nuts-and-bolts details of which section is used, how it is used and misused, I dunno.

[Rakhi]

.........................

Badriji, you have said that there are way too many instances where women are being deceptive, vindictive etc. Have you not come across any man who had mistreated his wife? Not even one?
I have come across and instances are way too many.

You are telling me that some women have turned the institution of marriage in to an art to destroy men. I am telling you that I know many instances where men married women only because of dowry and later even torture/murder them or both…without a shred of guilt. There are numerous instances where young women are burnt alive. Numerous instances where she was subjected to verbal/physical abuse in the hands of her husband and his entire family. Numerous instances where the guy marries her and treats her like a sex toy and nothing else. Numerous instances where he marries her, gets her pregnant and leaves her to fend for herself. Numerous instances where all a man thinks about is his comfort and his needs. To hell with what is good for the family.
I am sure you must have heard of at least one instance from what I write. If not, read any Indian news paper in regional section. You will know what I am talking about.
And let me also tell you that these laws are recent trend. (Some) Women have been victims in the hands of men from Adam’s time!

Don’t give me “rules” about religion Badriji, both of us know to what extent the rules work and to what extent the same women are targeted for no reason of theirs because of the so called ‘rules’.

Badriji, at the end of day, my argument is not based on, “Oh you guys have been bad to us in the past, so we will make you suffer now”. I hope you get what I am trying to say.

I sure agree that there are loopholes in the laws governing women’s rights, in India or elsewhere. What is needed is to fill the gaps and make the law more efficient. Removing the entire law just because it has loopholes is like saying we don’t need something called a Police Force just because you have heard instances of some police officers take bribe.

All I am saying is that just because some women have taken advantage of the law, it doesn’t make all women worthless and less deserving of respect and love. This is no different for men. Just because some guys are vindictive and deceptive, it doesn’t make all guys less deserving of respect and love.

[PeaceSeeker]

Yes from school teacher,classmates to colleagues all were bitter.
i have all pleasant experiences of my school teachers. all ladies.

[Rakhi]

now now,pls do not get worked up. whoever used the term 'creature' did not mean to compare woman with low level living beings. it was just used there vis a vis opposite sex. men and women both r creatures.
See the below response PS? He meant to compare women with low level beings. Please dont tell me now that we are all animals anyway.

Sorry to hurt you but this is one of the facts of life.



Yes from school teacher,classmates to colleagues all were bitter.

Swami, no offense but have you ever stopped to think that all women cannot be bad? It could be your outlook? I find it hard to believe that ALL women you have met were bitter and bad!

[PeaceSeeker]

I agree. When I was in school, there was a guy called Amar. He was weak in studies and I would help him. His mom would dance behind me - Shringarey, Shringarey.

Then we got jobs. I went thru bad times. She did not want me to meet Amar as I was vice ridden. Once I went to Amar's house, she shut the door saying Amar was not there.

Some years passed. I started to do well. I had contacts. I became a man of the world. Her younger son Ghamar is having problems settling. Now she once again dances - "Shringarey, you never come home? Heh heh heh"

Kya Pagalpan ki goli khaayee hai kya main ne?

I smile back. I was young and trusted her then. Not now. I'll smile at her. Lovingly..... But I won't trust her. And I'll do everything for her short of help.

Another story. I was in Std XI - Junior college.That time I was young and foolish, and had a crazy fantasy - I wanted to be the greatest mathematician ever. I wanted to be greater than Gauss and Fermat and Abel - than all of them together! The crazy part was, I actually believed I could do it!!! (I was 16 yrs then).

With this obsession, I would bunk classes and attend only Library. I read and read. I did not bother to shave. I didnt go home. My hair was not combed. I looked like some zonked goonda.

Now several guys and girs started making fun of me - the way I dressed. It did not matter. I was in my own world.

Because I would often be sleepy, I would go to have tea. I would go with a guy called Handsome. He would tease a girl called Lovely. I did not know it. When we would go to have tea, if Lovely was there, he would make some "signs" to her, unbeknowest to me. She got angry. She complained to the college dada. She put my name first (probably becos of my attire). The Dada came and thrashed me.

I was shocked. Whenever I would see Lovely or Dada, I would move aside, go to Library and study. After a few months, the facts became obvious that I was not involved. The Dada apologized (tho he did ask me why i did not wear proper dress). Lovely did not.

Years passed. One day I met Lovely at a marriage function. I did not recognize her. She was not the skinny girl, but a woman of the world. She did not recognize me (I think). I was suited-booted and a young man of enterprise and all mathematical ambitions gone. Suddenly, I was introduced to her by someone. She looked at me and said "Were you in JagatNarain College?" I said yes. Then she told me her name. I suddenly realized that she was the same girl who got me thrashed. I asked her "Are you the girl who had got me beaten up?" She laughed and said "I dont remember, it was long ago."

SHE DID REMEMBER. If she didn';t she would have said, "My God! No". Her answer told me she remembered. But she felt no guilt. No apology.

Kya bolta??

the experiences of shring are cumulative sum of what an average individual will experience in 2 or more lives. women, stock market, story writing, money making, love for mathematics/physics etc etc etc.

shring, did/do u aim to be master of all trades:p

[PeaceSeeker]

bahut juna hai, repeat hi hoga. premi, either excuse or search.

mathematical proof of 'why girls r evil'

we know that girls require time and money. so
girls = time * money
but time is money. therefore
girls = money * money
i.e.
girls = money²
now, money is the root of all evil. therefore
girls = (√evil)²
therefore
girls = evil

:smartass:

[Shringarey]

I am telling you that I know many instances where men married women only because of dowry

..........

I am sure you must have heard of at least one instance from what I write. If not, read any Indian news paper in regional section. You will know what I am talking about.



Hahahahahahahahaha.

This is one of the greatest con-myths perpetuated by media and women.


Hahahahahaha

[Shringarey]

Swami, no offense but have you ever stopped to think that all women cannot be bad? It could be your outlook? I find it hard to believe that ALL women you have met were bitter and bad!


No. I dont think all women are bad. I know how much my mom has gone through for my sake. But, you never know with women. They will act all sweet-like, and they will have their own agenda. You will know about it only after it is too late.

[Rakhi]

Hahahahahahahahaha.

This is one of the greatest con-myths perpetuated by media and women.


Hahahahahaha

Oh ya? Is this also just your personal observation or you have some kinda source you can give me to cross check?

[swami]

See Rakhi I am no good at writing down what I have to say so maybe people interpret me in multiple ways and mostly negatively.I never meant to say females are low level beings or some sort of creatures but one thing is for sure most of the females are cunning and emotional blackmailers, the greatest tool they have against men is tears and if that doesnt work the next is "law for the fair gender".I agree they wont use it against their blood relatives but wont hesistate to use it against their law-relatives,husband included.
If you go back into history,maybe Ashdoc can confirm,the root cause of most wars were women.
I know you Rakhi for so long now that I know you have a different upbringing and have great cultural values and most important you have a fair thinking,maybe or you are different, the same feeling I have for most of the females on board not excluding Pakki,Dollyg and Pari.

But the fact is most of the women are full of dirt inside their brains forget them having a heart.Sorry to say this but the most beautiful creation of God today is most ugliest inside :rolleyes:





See the below response PS? He meant to compare women with low level beings. Please dont tell me now that we are all animals anyway.






Swami, no offense but have you ever stopped to think that all women cannot be bad? It could be your outlook? I find it hard to believe that ALL women you have met were bitter and bad!

[Rakhi]

See Rakhi I am no good at writing down what I have to say so maybe people interpret me in multiple ways and mostly negatively.I never meant to say females are low level beings or some sort of creatures but one thing is for sure most of the females are cunning and emotional blackmailers, the greatest tool they have against men is tears and if that doesnt work the next is "law for the fair gender".I agree they wont use it against their blood relatives but wont hesistate to use it against their law-relatives,husband included.
If you go back into history,maybe Ashdoc can confirm,the root cause of most wars were women.
I know you Rakhi for so long now that I know you have a different upbringing and have great cultural values and most important you have a fair thinking,maybe or you are different, the same feeling I have for most of the females on board not excluding Pakki,Dollyg and Pari.

But the fact is most of the women are full of dirt inside their brains forget them having a heart.Sorry to say this but the most beautiful creation of God today is most ugliest inside :rolleyes:

Come on Swami, when you are calling us cunning, you have to be specific; who exactly are you referring to? Grouping "most" women as cunning is unfair. Its like me calling "most" men as rapist's just because there are a few rapists in all countries.

I do agree not all women are great. there are women who take advantage of loopholes in law. But thats the exception...just like there are exceptions when it comes to guys being deceptive; just like they hide behind loopholes in law.

[swami]

One day I'll hire some great editor to write down about females and get a book published,read it then :p


Come on Swami, when you are calling us cunning, you have to be specific; who exactly are you referring to? Grouping "most" women as cunning is unfair. Its like me calling "most" men as rapist's just because there are a few rapists in all countries.

I do agree not all women are great. there are women who take advantage of loopholes in law. But thats the exception...just like there are exceptions when it comes to guys being deceptive; just like they hide behind loopholes in law.

[swami]

What do we call this ? ;)
n im not sorry for what i said, he was asking for it. Idiot

Im happy he disappeared n i hope he never comes back . Stay happy wherever you are brother but never show up here. Thank you:rolleyes:

[Rakhi]

One day I'll hire some great editor to write down about females and get a book published,read it then :p

I have an idea, why dont you open a separate sub-section in laal mirchi itself and give a title "I hate Women Club"? I am sure you will get tons of support in EC itself.

I am kind of surprised that other than Sane, everyone in EC seems to think in your lines.

[Rakhi]

What do we call this ? ;)

You call it Soniya.

[swami]

Maybe SanelessPai lives in Wonderland :D

I dont think we need a sub-section to discuss problems which cannot be solved at all.Females will never change and men are not used to crying :D
I have an idea, why dont you open a separate sub-section in laal mirchi itself and give a title "I hate Women Club"? I am sure you will get tons of support in EC itself.

I am kind of surprised that other than Sane, everyone in EC seems to think in your lines.

[swami]

Sensible ones would call it a female ;)
You call it Soniya.

[Rakhi]

I know you Rakhi for so long now that I know you have a different upbringing and have great cultural values and most important you have a fair thinking,maybe or you are different, the same feeling I have for most of the females on board not excluding Pakki,Dollyg and Pari.



Sensible ones would call it a female ;)

See Swami, you yourself are saying we have all kinds of women on board. Just like you would expect to see all kinds of people in real life.

Anyway...I dont want us to keep arguing. So, if you are bent on believing what you think is right, without even considering what I have been trying to explain, then I give up.

[swami]

Ok,ok I am out of this thread :whacky:

See Swami, you yourself are saying we have all kinds of women on board. Just like you would expect to see all kinds of people in real life.

Anyway...I dont want us to keep arguing. So, if you are bent on believing what you think is right, without even considering what I have been trying to explain, then I give up.

[smellyfinger]

Hmmm .. what a bunch of closet misogynists we have here. :D

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. There is a lot of truth to that. So, to that point, I agree. Women are more vindictive than men. They will ensure that they get retribution one way or the other. Men tend to let things roll off their backs more easily. But, unprovoked, women are no more evil or cunning than men.

By and large women are more emotional than men. I dont think you will get too much argument there. Vindictiveness is just an emotional response to a slight - and by logical conclusion, women will react more strongly, being more emotional.

Oh - and whoever said that women were the cause of wars - incorrect. Men fighting over women are the cause of most wars. :D

[chaiwaala]

bahut juna hai, repeat hi hoga. premi, either excuse or search.

mathematical proof of 'why girls r evil'

we know that girls require time and money. so
girls = time * money
but time is money. therefore
girls = money * money
i.e.
girls = money²
now, money is the root of all evil. therefore
girls = (√evil)²
therefore
girls = evil

:smartass:

Pakka proof hai, bhai. Please send it to a peer-reviewed journal. :D

[swami]

Hindi mei kehte "shawl mei joota lapetkar maarna" :rotfl:
:goodjob:


Hmmm .. what a bunch of closet misogynists we have here. :D

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. There is a lot of truth to that. So, to that point, I agree. Women are more vindictive than men. They will ensure that they get retribution one way or the other. Men tend to let things roll off their backs more easily. But, unprovoked, women are no more evil or cunning than men.

By and large women are more emotional than men. I dont think you will get too much argument there. Vindictiveness is just an emotional response to a slight - and by logical conclusion, women will react more strongly, being more emotional.

Oh - and whoever said that women were the cause of wars - incorrect. Men fighting over women are the cause of most wars. :D

[smellyfinger]

Hindi mei kehte "shawl mei joota lapetkar maarna" :rotfl:
:goodjob:

Tu kahe to shawl nikaal ke maaroon tujhe. :D

[chaiwaala]

One day I'll hire some great editor to write down about females and get a book published,read it then :p

Narayana, Narayana. Swami Narayana Pai, there are already hundreds of these tomes. I must say ... it's quite a cottage industry. There's room for hundreds more though, so don't ya worry. Seems to be a fascinating topic for many folks. :D

Here's a small sampler to whet your appetite:

Why men hate women by Adam Jukes
Why I Should Hate Men, But Don't by Elizabeth A. James

Why Men Marry Bitches by Sherry Argov
Angry Men and the Women who love them by Paul Hegstrom

Why does he do that: Inside the minds of angry and controlling men by Lundy Bancroft
Insatiable Wives: Women Who Stray And The Men Who Love Them by David J. Ley

Nasty Women: How to stop being hurt by them without stooping to their level by Jay Carter
Born to Please: Compliant Women/Controlling Men by Karen Blaker

Screw the bitch: Divorce tactics for men by Dick Hart
He's History, You're Not: Surviving Divorce After 40 by Erica Manfred

Men Are Pigs: Outrageous Stories From Women About Men's Bad Behavior by Sylvia Carvajal
That Bitch: Protect yourself against women with malicious intent by Mary T Cleary

Ditch that jerk: Dealing with men who control and hurt women by Pamela Jayne and Andrew R. Klein
Woman's Inhumanity to Woman by Phyllis Chesler

When She Was Bad...: Violent Women and the Myth of Innocence by Patricia Pearson
Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them: When Loving Hurts and You Don't Know Why by Susan Forward and Joan Torres


When you gonna publish yours tome?

Thank you. God bless.

[JaiSpeaks]

Come on Swami, when you are calling us cunning, you have to be specific; who exactly are you referring to? Grouping "most" women as cunning is unfair. Its like me calling "most" men as rapist's just because there are a few rapists in all countries.

I do agree not all women are great. there are women who take advantage of loopholes in law. But thats the exception...just like there are exceptions when it comes to guys being deceptive; just like they hide behind loopholes in law.

I think he is watching too many soaps of tv . :D

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

Oh ya? Is this also just your personal observation or you have some kinda source you can give me to cross check?

Both. Some years back, I was working pro-bono for a few organizations associated with batterred women. My work consisted essentially on streamlining the funding process. I had my own personal reason to take up these assignments, which I don't want to get into right now.

I have come across several dowry cases - woman harassed over dowry. On examination by the counselors and their adroit questioning (I was just an observer), it came out that the issue was NOT dowry at all. There are complex issues why a woman is hurt. It is difficult for her to explain. So she screams "dowry", and gets sympathy.

I checked with many, many organizations. I found that they had not come across a SINGLE Dorwry Case. There were grievances - some real, some imagined. But the woman caught DOWRY as a way to get sympathy. Imagine - NOT ONE SINGLE DOWRY CASE amongst so many. That is why, I say that dowry reported by press is just a con-job!!!!

I'll give you some references by women's organizations themselves. Just gimme some time.

[chaiwaala]

Rakhi,

Oh ya? Is this also just your personal observation or you have some kinda source you can give me to cross check?

Both. Some years back, I was working pro-bono for a few organizations associated with batterred women. My work consisted essentially on streamlining the funding process. I had my own personal reason to take up these assignments, which I don't want to get into right now.

I have come across several dowry cases - woman harassed over dowry. On examination by the counselors and their adroit questioning (I was just an observer), it came out that the issue was NOT dowry at all. There are complex issues why a woman is hurt. It is difficult for her to explain. So she screams "dowry", and gets sympathy.

I checked with many, many organizations. I found that they had not come across a SINGLE Dorwry Case. There were grievances - some real, some imagined. But the woman caught DOWRY as a way to get sympathy. Imagine - NOT ONE SINGLE DOWRY CASE amongst so many. That is why, I say that dowry reported by press is just a con-job!!!!

I'll give you some references by women's organizations themselves. Just gimme some time.


I think this would be relevant ...



Laws against domestic violence
Underused or Abused?
Madhu Kishwar

...

By inserting a new section 113B in the Indian Evidence Act, the lawmakers stipulated that in cases that get registered by the police as those of “dowry death”, the court shall presume that the accused is guilty unless he can prove otherwise.

...

Misuse of Section 498A

Way back in 1988, I had pointed out, in what came to be a very controversial article, that there was already a distinct trend to include dowry demands in every complaint of domestic discord or cruelty, even when dowry was not an issue at all (see MANUSHI 48). The police as well as lawyers were found to be encouraging female complainants to use this as a necessary ploy to implicate their marital families, making them believe that their complaint would not be taken seriously otherwise. With the enactment of 498 A, this tendency has received a further fillip. Mentioning dowry demands seems to have become a common ritual in virtually all cases registered with the police or filed in court.

LINK (http://www.indiatogether.org/manushi/issue120/domestic.htm)

[badriprasad]

Badriji, you have said that there are way too many instances where women are being deceptive, vindictive etc. Have you not come across any man who had mistreated his wife? Not even one?



Rakhiji ... I offer to you and our female members my most sincere apologies ... I will have to be an ahole of Paki variety to deny that there are bstds among men who abuse women. SCUM! And society and law treats these men as scum. Except for when women commit despicable acts ... they tend to get away with it all ... in this day and age, law and society still treat scum among women with gentleness which was supposed to have been set aside for innocent victims of scum among men.

[Shringarey]

Thanks chaiwala. That's a good one.

This is barbaric. Guilty unless proven innocent!!

This means that the society believes that the woman always talks the truth. Its up to the guy to prove he did not rape.

This has far reaching implications. In the IMF case, there was proof of sex because of man's semen. The question was whether it was consensual or forced.

In India, there may not be sex at all. A man and woman are together. The woman shouts rape. The guy is caught. How does he prove he is innocent? He may not even have had intercourse. So no semen test. If he cannot prove himself innocent, he is accepted as guilty and imprisoned for rape. What sort of law is this? You are tampering with the foundations of legal system. Many, many men are rotting in jail. There are tried and imprisoned because they were unable to prove innocent. Many of them are shouting that there was no sex whatever - consensual or otherwise. BARBARIC man, BARBARIC.

[chaiwaala]

In India, there may not be sex at all. A man and woman are together. The woman shouts rape. The guy is caught. How does he prove he is innocent? He may not even have had intercourse. So no semen test. If he cannot prove himself innocent, he is accepted as guilty and imprisoned for rape. What sort of law is this? You are tampering with the foundations of legal system. Many, many men are rotting in jail. There are tried and imprisoned because they were unable to prove innocent. Many of them are shouting that there was no sex whatever - consensual or otherwise. BARBARIC man, BARBARIC.

Shringarey ji, I think that section 113B in Madhu Kiswar's article ... I think it does not apply to rape cases. In a rape case, the onus for proving guilt would rest with the prosecution. So a man accused of rape would be presumed innocent until proven guilty ... I think.

Where they seem to have fiddled with the legal precept of 'innocent until proven guilty' is in the area of dowry deaths, not rape cases.

[badriprasad]

Rakhiji ...

Several, several this copy/paste refers to runs in to hundreds of thousands in India and tens of thousand NRIs ... men! How bad it is? There have been many instances where good women have accused bed-ridden elderly parents (of husbands) ... of physical abuse! Many of these parents have ended up spending months in prison or till court hearing!

copy/paste

Several reports of the abuse of Section 498A have involved couples based outside India especially in the US & Canada. The United States Department of State has published the following travel warning:

A number of US men who have come to India to marry Indian nationals have been arrested and charged with crimes related to dowry extraction. Many of the charges stem from the US citizen’s inability to provide an immigrant visa for his prospective spouse to travel immediately to the United States. [1][not in citation given]

The courts sometimes order the US citizen to pay large sums of money to his spouse in exchange for the dismissal of charges. The courts normally confiscate the American’s passport, and he must remain in India until the case has been settled.[2][not in citation given]

It is stated in Travel Advisory by US, since the police may arrest anyone who is accused of committing a crime (even if the allegation is frivolous in nature), the Indian criminal justice system is often used to escalate personal disagreements into criminal charges. This practice has been increasingly exploited by dissatisfied business partners, contractors, estranged spouses, or other persons with whom the US citizen has a disagreement, occasionally resulting in the jailing of US citizens pending resolution of their disputes. At the very least, such circumstances can delay the US citizen's timely departure from India, and may result in an unintended long-term stay in the country. Corruption in India, especially at local levels, is a concern, as evidenced by Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index of 3.5, ranking India in 72nd place of the world’s countries.[11]

In a well publicized case, Dr. Balamurali Ambati, who earned his MD at age 17, and his family were detained in India for over three years in a suit related to alleged dowry demands by the family for his brother's wife Archana, which delayed Dr. Ambati's entry to the ophthalmology program for two years, leaving him to begin his residency in 1998. All charges against him were dismissed in October 1996 and all his family members were acquitted in June 1999.[12][dead link][citation needed]

During the course of the trial the Ambatis produced a tape in which the father of Archana demanded US $500,000 to drop all the charges although the details of this particular case are still debated in India.


Link ... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_law_in_India)

[Shringarey]

Look at the situation -

The guy - a man who held position of responsibility - Head of IMP. Cud have been Prez of France.

The woman - a maid

Her voice is considered because law does not believe in hi and lo. He is jailed. Her story falls apart. He will be released. But WILL SHE BE PUNISHED - poerjury, legal terrorism? NO!! Women will say that punishing her would ensure that "women wont come out to confess to being raped"
One woman has claimed that she should not be punished because men repeatedly "rape us with their eyes, rape us with their words, rape us with their rules."!!!!!


In the Ambati case, the newspapers almost tried and hanged Ambati. Then slowly, the case against him fell. Was the woman and her father punished for false claims? NO Because Women's organizations claimed it would be a deterrent to women crying out loud against dowry cases.


This is the issue. If a woman's case is proved to be false, and malicious, SHE SHOULD BE PUNISHED. That is where the system breaks.

YET - watch out. There is resentment against this. A time will come when every criminal will claim he was wrongly accused. What then? Where will women go???


Please see these articles where men have rotted in prison for 10-30 years for no crime of theirs save that the woman said he raped her -

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/biology/courses/c2005/articles/pcr.2.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34467096/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/dna-clears-fla-man-after-years-behind-bars/
http://cdiamico.blogspot.com/2011/01/texas-black-man-freed-through-dna.html
http://www.topix.com/forum/dallas/T188USAVHU10IES39

I can go on and on about US. In India it is WORSE. The problem is a thousand fold. Literally lacs of people are languishing in prison because some woman gave some fabricated story. The story is considered true. How does a man show his innocence against a woman whose voice is considered true and fair?

[Rakhi]

But, unprovoked, women are no more evil or cunning than men.



Thanks Melly.

Rakhi,

Oh ya? Is this also just your personal observation or you have some kinda source you can give me to cross check?

Both. Some years back, I was working pro-bono for a few organizations associated with batterred women. My work consisted essentially on streamlining the funding process. I had my own personal reason to take up these assignments, which I don't want to get into right now.

I have come across several dowry cases - woman harassed over dowry. On examination by the counselors and their adroit questioning (I was just an observer), it came out that the issue was NOT dowry at all. There are complex issues why a woman is hurt. It is difficult for her to explain. So she screams "dowry", and gets sympathy.

I checked with many, many organizations. I found that they had not come across a SINGLE Dorwry Case. There were grievances - some real, some imagined. But the woman caught DOWRY as a way to get sympathy. Imagine - NOT ONE SINGLE DOWRY CASE amongst so many. That is why, I say that dowry reported by press is just a con-job!!!!

I'll give you some references by women's organizations themselves. Just gimme some time.

Shring, You amaze me with your argument. So, in all your life you have never come across a guy who had genuinely mistreated a woman? I think where you live all women are evil/cunning/deceptive and all men are Godly. Please tell me where you live and I will send all my unmarried cousins there. I am not being sarcastic. I know you are far more knowledgeable than me in every sense possible, so I am not being sarcastic. World truly needs a place where not a single man is cunning/deceptive, a place where you now seem to live.

I am truly surprised that you have not come across a SINGLE case of women where they were truly betrayed by men. Either this or you are lying.

Like I said many many many times in this thread and my previous posts on similar topics that we need to tighten the law not remove it.

I do agree that there are women who misuse dowry law. Just because of that, calling every women deceptive is, I am sorry Shring, silly. Of course you refuse to accept that there are bad men out there, which has become "besides the point now".

Just like you, I have had the privilege to work (actually it was voluntary work) with battered women s org. This was not in India. So I guess the cases I have seen are different from what we see in India. I have come across truly sad cases.

Anyway....this argument is never ending. You keep believing what you believe. But i only hope you are not influencing some young guys mind by saying ALL women are cunning and deceptive.

Lastly, yes, references would be great. I would also like to see what is the real problem women are facing and why they are calling it as dowry. Is Dowry-cry the only way to get attention? Lets see.

[Rakhi]

Rakhiji ... I offer to you and our female members my most sincere apologies ... I will have to be an ahole of Paki variety to deny that there are bstds among men who abuse women. SCUM! And society and law treats these men as scum. Except for when women commit despicable acts ... they tend to get away with it all ... in this day and age, law and society still treat scum among women with gentleness which was supposed to have been set aside for innocent victims of scum among men.

Badriji, the dowry law is relatively recent. It has been formed in 1960 or 1962 (don't recollect the date anymore). Only in the recent past did this come to light and many people are using this and some, misusing this. I am fairly sure this will be modified very soon.

I do understand that women can be wicked too. What needs to be done is tighten the law! Yes, some women do tend to get away with it by misusing it. Does this mean all women are cunning? Its the law which is at fault. Classifying all women as deceptive because a good controlled law is not in place is ridiculous. This is what I am trying to say.

My argument was never that women are all great, unlike Shring's where in not a single post he says he had come across a single man committing an offense against a woman.
My argument is dont classify all women as cunning/deceptive just because some women in your life have messed up.

[Rakhi]

This is the issue. If a woman's case is proved to be false, and malicious, SHE SHOULD BE PUNISHED. That is where the system breaks.

YET - watch out. There is resentment against this. A time will come when every criminal will claim he was wrongly accused. What then? Where will women go???


Please see these articles where men have rotted in prison for 10-30 years for no crime of theirs save that the woman said he raped her -

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/biology/courses/c2005/articles/pcr.2.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34467096/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/dna-clears-fla-man-after-years-behind-bars/
http://cdiamico.blogspot.com/2011/01/texas-black-man-freed-through-dna.html
http://www.topix.com/forum/dallas/T188USAVHU10IES39

I can go on and on about US. In India it is WORSE. The problem is a thousand fold. Literally lacs of people are languishing in prison because some woman gave some fabricated story. The story is considered true. How does a man show his innocence against a woman whose voice is considered true and fair?

For one last time let me try answering. I am not telling that there are no bad women. I am telling that dont classify all women under the same category. Dont say, "ha! she is a woman! she has to be wicked".

OK...now that you have given a few references, let me also try and see online where I can find cases where women were genuinely raped. Of course you are not going to accept any of my references as in your mind you think men cannot do anything wrong. But let me try anyway.

[smellyfinger]

For one last time let me try answering. I am not telling that there are no bad women. I am telling that dont classify all women under the same category. Dont say, "ha! she is a woman! she has to be wicked".

OK...now that you have given a few references, let me also try and see online where I can find cases where women were genuinely raped. Of course you are not going to accept any of my references as in your mind you think men cannot do anything wrong. But let me try anyway.

You have to have four male witnesses testify that they actually saw the act happening for it to be a "genuine" rape. Else, it is just hearsay. :D

BTW, Rakhi, maybe a topic for another thread, but what is so heinous about a rape? Given the conditions that its not a woman's first time (more hurtful), dont get preggers, dont contract an STD, no other violence was involved and its not a child being raped. As a man I dont quite get it. Its just another pole in the hole.

I try and equate it to being raped in the ass. Of course I dont want it to happen because i dont swing that way. But if I have already taken a few hot dogs in the bung hole, whats one more (above conditions still being true)? Its not the end of the world. I wont commit suicide over it. Sure I will feel humiliated and powerless - but lets face it - we face that situation several times in our family lives, careers etc.

So what exactly is it that makes some women think that rape is even worse than murder? Is it social mores like a blot on reputation? Is it the feeling of powerlessness? Something else?

[Rakhi]

BTW, Rakhi, maybe a topic for another thread, but what is so heinous about a rape? Given the conditions that its not a woman's first time (more hurtful), dont get preggers, dont contract an STD, no other violence was involved and its not a child being raped. As a man I dont quite get it. Its just another pole in the hole.

I try and equate it to being raped in the ass. Of course I dont want it to happen because i dont swing that way. But if I have already taken a few hot dogs in the bung hole, whats one more (above conditions still being true)? Its not the end of the world. I wont commit suicide over it. Sure I will feel humiliated and powerless - but lets face it - we face that situation several times in our family lives, careers etc.

So what exactly is it that makes some women think that rape is even worse than murder? Is it social mores like a blot on reputation? Is it the feeling of powerlessness? Something else?

Melly, from what I understand it is not about sex, it’s about power and control and not about desire. Whether it is a man or a woman, since it is forced, unwanted and since the victim did not give consent, it is heinous. It is also a physical violation. And yes, it does hurt. Clinically speaking, irrespective how many times a woman have had intercourse before; she still needs to actively participate in it so that she is not dry. When she is dry, like in the case of rape, it still hurts a LOT.

Rape can be oral, vaginal or anal. What makes it rape is the absence of consent and not whether or not you swing that way. You dont want to be raped. Period. Nothing to do with swinging that way or not.

I agree, people should not commit suicide over it. If you are talking only in Indian terms, it could be the mindset which makes them believe that rape is worse than murder. We become powerless at many stages in life. It’s the mind set which says rape is worse than murder.

No, maybe I should rephrase; it’s a personal opinion. To me, my life is more important. Yes, I would sure go through physical and emotional trauma, but there is always therapy available to heal the scars (both physical and emotional). Ending my life over someone who has violated me is not worth it.
Why do you think many people consent for this at a gun point?

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

There is a lot of confusion in yr mind as to my stand. I'll state it clearly in a few posts. So plz dont reply till I say "ARGUMENT OVER"

Firstly,

i) All women are not bad, some are good. I have personally come across women that are good.

ii) All men are not good. There are a few bad uns too.

In this sense, there is gender symmetry. Your posts indicate that you feel that I think "All women are bad". Not True. I don't

But let us take the symetry further. I know very many women who will not go out in the dark, out of fear. The fear is usually about a man hurting her. (it could alo be dogs, snakes, etc). She does not think that all men are bad. She thinks: "If I meet a bad man, the result could be disastrous". This thought keeps her in the house at night. It is a reasonable, non-aggressive, highly defensive response to a perceived threat.

Give me the same liberty too. I am NOT saying that all women are bad. All I am saying is that a few women are bad. However, should I meet one, and she is bad to me (by saying Rape!!! when I am innocent), the consequences for me are terrible. So, I just want the right to have a reasonable, non-aggressive, highly defensive response to a perceived threat

What is this response? It is -

a) As far as possible, work in a glass doored office.
b) Never take/go out with a woman unless others are present.
c) While talking to a woman, keep a physical distance. Not the normal 2 ft, but a good 4 ft.
d) Be careful while writing mails to women. They could be mis-interpreted.
e) If a woman insults you, do not be scared to show your disapproval by looking the other way, or walking out. This is non-aggressive. Every male has a right to "cross the road" when a woman he does not like comes in front of him (women do that too)
f) If a woman seems threatening, walk out. Have nothing to do to/with her.
g) Keep your eyes open. See how a particular woman treats others. That will give you an idea how she treats you.
h) Be polite. Don't raise your voice. But, dont start a conversation with a woman unless absolutely necessary.
i) Bathing, washing your face, combing your hair, washing your ears, etc are private activities. Never do them in front of women. If women do in front of you, look the other way.

etc,etc,etc.

Summary of this post: SOME women are BAD, VERY BAD. They can cause you a lot of hurt. That does not mean that all women are bad. However, since you cannot tell a-priori which woman is bad, be on guard against ALL women unless u are comfortable.

[Shringarey]

Now we come to gender asymmetry. Uptil now, the situation was symetric. But once you add in society issues, laws, and political response, a great assymetry takes place.

i) A woman complaining about being harassed by a guy is taken seriously by the police. A man complaining of harassment at hands of a woman is not. Often, the case is not even registered.

ii) Dowry is defined as gifts during marriage by a spouse. It does not consider the case of gender. Yet, in its real life application by police and courts, gender is considered. Take an example. If a woman promises that she has a flat where they can stay after marriage, and the guy marries her, and there is really no flat and he walks out, she can call it "dowry harassment". The society looks upon it as dowry harassment. CRIMINAL OFFENSE

Now reverse the case. The guy tells her that he has a flat. After marriage it is found out he does not have one. She walks out. She rams him for "marriage under false pretenses" - CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

In both these cases, the guy is screwed. How is it that if the guy complains anginst false promise by woman HE is jammed, and if a woman complains of false promise by guy, HE is jammed. Rakhi, Answer this if you can.

iii) Every divorce has become a dowry harasment case. There are divorces and if the woman is vindictive, she files a dowry harrasment case against the guy. He is screwed. Guy in Mumbai. His wife applies for divorce/dowry harasment and moves to Delhi. Case is tried in Delhi. He has to do up-down every time to Delhi. That means difficulty getting job. Cannot go abroad to make money becos criminal case pending. Has to be present in court becos he is deemed criminal. Woman asks for X amount saying that it was given by her. He has to prove it wasn't. After doing up-down for 6 years, judge retires. New judge, new Tareekh. I'm not talking about one or two people. 80% of divorces end up as dowry harasment!!! Guys are screwed. Cannot marry, cannot work, lasts for 15 years. This is shit!!! That too if he is lucky and educated. Otherwise, rot in jail. Ask around madam.


That is why I am making it public. I cannot change the law. I can only change myself. So I say -

a) First, do polygamy. This is most important. Since polygamy is not accepted by courts, the marriage is null and void, and dowry enactment does not take place.

b) Follow the 11 + 1 model. Mumbai has oppressive rent control act. So no one gives on rent. They give 11 months on rent, and rentor is thrown out. Do the same. Chase girls like there is no end. Be faithful to none. Have live ins, but on a musical-chair basis. Create vanishing addresses. Create double family contacts. blah, blah, blah.


Do one thing please, Rakhi tai. Go on net and google how many divoirces end in dowry harrassment cases.

[Rakhi]

OK, let me know when you are done, I will answer. Dont want to answer in between, like you requested Shring.

[badriprasad]

OK, let me know when you are done, I will answer. Dont want to answer in between,

Good woman is one who speaks when spoken to. Rakhiji, you are a very good woman. Are there more left like you in your town? I like to order one.















: rofl : just kidding

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

I asked you specifically whether women feel guilt or not. I am coming to the conclusion that they don't.

First, my personal life. Men have hurt me, and so have women. I have hurt men, and I have hurt women. Often, we hurt people without meaning to. This is especially true when we are young.

I have tried to make amends and apologized when I have hurt anyone - man or woman. I have found that most men who have hurt me have apologized, and made amends. Not a single woman has apologized or felt guilty.

Second, public life. In the dowry harrasment case, any person from the guy's side can be named. Sometimes, it is a person staying in a different town altogether!! All these people have to travel to court as it is a criminal case.

I know a few old fathers/mothers of the grrom, who have died of harrassment. A 80-year old man might not be able to travel to Delhi from Mumbai now and then. Even handicapped are not barred. I know quite a few old men/women who have died because of trauma from brides/brides-to-be. I am serious about this. I mean it. Yet, the woman, the bride shows no sense of remorse.

Even in the filth of the underworld, once a person dies/is killed, the victim is left off. Even amongst the backward regions of India, if a man commits suicide, the moneylender cancels all debts. Death is the final point at which things cancel out.

This does not seem to happen here. The old man dies going from Mumbai to Delhi, the case is not withdrawn. The brother (of the groom) who for no fault of his, goes to prison, finds his career in ruins, and in despair commits suicide, the case is not withdrawn. That is why I ask - do women have a sense of guilt? I don't think so.

ARGUMENT OVER

[badriprasad]

Difficult to ignore Shring's opinions backed by facts. While Rakhiji has to remain content arguing her personal opinions. Both win in their own way ... one more crown in Shring's jaded portfolio. :up: My compliments.




Rakhi,

I asked you specifically whether women feel guilt or not. I am coming to the conclusion that they don't.

First, my personal life. Men have hurt me, and so have women. I have hurt men, and I have hurt women. Often, we hurt people without meaning to. This is especially true when we are young.

I have tried to make amends and apologized when I have hurt anyone - man or woman. I have found that most men who have hurt me have apologized, and made amends. Not a single woman has apologized or felt guilty.

Second, public life. In the dowry harrasment case, any person from the guy's side can be named. Sometimes, it is a person staying in a different town altogether!! All these people have to travel to court as it is a criminal case.

I know a few old fathers/mothers of the grrom, who have died of harrassment. A 80-year old man might not be able to travel to Delhi from Mumbai now and then. Even handicapped are not barred. I know quite a few old men/women who have died because of trauma from brides/brides-to-be. I am serious about this. I mean it. Yet, the woman, the bride shows no sense of remorse.

Even in the filth of the underworld, once a person dies/is killed, the victim is left off. Even amongst the backward regions of India, if a man commits suicide, the moneylender cancels all debts. Death is the final point at which things cancel out.

This does not seem to happen here. The old man dies going from Mumbai to Delhi, the case is not withdrawn. The brother (of the groom) who for no fault of his, goes to prison, finds his career in ruins, and in despair commits suicide, the case is not withdrawn. That is why I ask - do women have a sense of guilt? I don't think so.

ARGUMENT OVER

[Rakhi]

Good woman is one who speaks when spoken to. Rakhiji, you are a very good woman. Are there more left like you in your town? I like to order one.


Oh dear, I wasn't mass produced. I was a part of limited edition release. So, all sold out on day 1 itself; no stock left. They don't make women like me any more :D, so sorry.

[chaiwaala]

Now you are breaking his heart. Isn't this something that women excel at? :D

[Rakhi]

This is the issue. If a woman's case is proved to be false, and malicious, SHE SHOULD BE PUNISHED. That is where the system breaks.
I do agree that if a woman falsely claims dowry or rape against a man, she should be tried too, just like a guy would be tried.
YET - watch out. There is resentment against this. A time will come when every criminal will claim he was wrongly accused. What then? Where will women go???
In case of rape or in case of dowry demands, it is very much possible to know the facts through correct investigation. Our police force is competent enough to break cases like this.
Please see these articles where men have rotted in prison for 10-30 years for no crime of theirs save that the woman said he raped her -

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/biology/courses/c2005/articles/pcr.2.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34467096/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/dna-clears-fla-man-after-years-behind-bars/
http://cdiamico.blogspot.com/2011/01/texas-black-man-freed-through-dna.html
http://www.topix.com/forum/dallas/T188USAVHU10IES39



Shring, I will answer each post of yours. So bear with me until I respond to your last post. Also see my response in blue.

You have given links about where men were wrongly convicted. Here is my contribution where women were killed/abused because of dowry and domestic violence. Since you also quoted articles from news papers, I hope you dont mind me quoting the same.

No where in your second article it says everything was taken for granted because of a woman. But, never mind. I get your point.

Dowry deaths:
1. A case where in laws have murdered their daughter in law over inadequate dowry: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/015sjlle.asp
2. A man killing his wife over dowry (again): http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kanpur/Man-gets-7-yrs-RI-in-dowry-death-case/articleshow/9141605.cms
3. Another case: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2007-08-31/nagpur/27979449_1_dowry-jewellery-shop-girl

Domestic violence:
A case where woman sets fire on herself because of domestic violence: http://articles.cnn.com/1996-08-18/world/9608_18_bride.burn_1_dowry-hindu-attitudes?_s=PM:WORLD


The point I am trying to make is, yes there are people who have been wrongly convicted. But there are also people who have committed a crime.



From your last post, I gather that you are not against law, you are against the poor controls in place. I am with you on this.

[Diplomat]

All i will say is this:

Women are very calculative and they consider themselves the center of the universe. Everything they do, they seem to see it ONLY from their side. Very rarely have I seen a woman place herself in my shoes and see how I see the situation. They will also never utter the word "I feel your pain" because they don't.

[Rakhi]

I agree man. Don't deal with women, unless they are immediate family. Never trust a woman - don't even give a chance. Booom!! the fall on your neck could be really gruesome.

Also, I believe (but I'm not sure as I am not a woman), that women have no feeling of guilt. If a guy hurts someone, he may or maynot feel guilty, but a woman normally does not feel guilty. Take it from me.
Read this post of your again please Shring.


Summary of this post: SOME women are BAD, VERY BAD. They can cause you a lot of hurt. That does not mean that all women are bad. However, since you cannot tell a-priori which woman is bad, be on guard against ALL women unless u are comfortable.

The main inspiration behind me arguing this whole thing is the above post of yours Shring. There is nothing wrong in being paranoid than be sorry later. I would take care not to go out to the wrong places in the night, for the fear of abuse; for the fear of robbery etc. But that doesn't mean I go around preaching "never trust a man" etc etc.

[PeaceSeeker]

I must admit that Rakhi adds 5 stars to this forum. Not because she is smartest or wittiest or bold-n-beautiful or whatever. But just because she is a woman and CONSISTENTLY tries to give men a point-of-view which probably is hidden to them. Similarly Rakhi also knows that the folks here (guys) are probably the honestest(in-a-way) nicest wittiest smartest bunch of guys around. As long as two parties are 'honest' to each other, whether they agree or not, there is no 'devastation'. for devastation, at least one side has to be dishonest.
I m pretty sure by the time echarcha shuts down (or EOTW happens, whichever is earlier), either Rakhi would turn into a Raka (i.e. a guy) or all Rakas (guys) here will turn into Rakhis.

Now, to the topic:



Both men and women have certain aspects in their personality which is a 'blind spot' to the other gender. Women probably have one extra thing - they have a blind spot to themselves. All women are not bad. She may be good, very good, very very good. But if she is violated (anywhichway, it could be physical force or she could simply feel 'he is not keeping me happy' or 'he does not fufill my expectations'), she can get evil. And then, she loses track.
Many are bad right from the start i.e. their evil side is just waiting for the right time-&-situation to come out. Sad but true that such women have the capability to keep a man very happy till he is 'good' to her. This same women can make him go through hell if he is no longer 'good'.
And then there is another trait which probably applies to all women. A woman scorned does not have sense of devastation that she could cause. Bcoz duryodhan insulted draupadi, she wanted 'revenge'. She wants him punished even if it means end of the it all. This is true of all women [i think]. A man would probably settle for a lesser practical punishment if he is aware that what he is asking could cause large scale devastation. He could settle for an apology. Or maybe just skip/ignore it altogether for the larger good.




Many men (considerable) do some kind of selfless social work. Many r doing it full time. But inspite of "Women's liberation", I am yet to know a single woman in India who genuinely works for the cause of "truly suppressed woman". Women are so badly suppressed in so many parts of india (and the world), why doesnt some teetsa work for them? These women do not even have the voice which is audible to the law. And we have smart women using their sexuality to their advantage. Both these issues have one solution - some of the women who think themselves to be 'good liberalised woman' need to work for that solution. Some, not all.
Bottomline - Barring exceptions, women are (edited) wrapped up in a beautiful package. If that (edited) does not come out, consider urself lucky. If it does, be happy that the truth has shone on you. So men should either be lucky or happy. Not bad either-way.

next chapter likhoon kya?

[swami]

next chapter likhoon kya?

Abe puchta kya hai ? mera rep power ka lafda khatam hone de tujhe to iss thread ke har post par 2-2 baar rep karunga :D

[GameOn]

Abe puchta kya hai ? mera rep power ka lafda khatam hone de tujhe to iss thread ke har post par 2-2 baar rep karunga :D

swami's reps are like a plot in the middle of the desert where there is a board...

yahaan bank banegaa aur gareebon ko loan mileingay...

jabb takk reps mileingay tabb takk as peaceseeker said...either he will turn into a rakhi or rakhi will turn into a rakha..

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

Tell me when u have completed

[smellyfinger]

Rakhi,

Tell me when u have completed

Why - you want her to pull the flush? :D

[PeaceSeeker]

Why - you want her to pull the flush? :D
looks more like shring wants to pull it once she is done:D

[GameOn]

Why - you want her to pull the flush? :D

looks more like shring wants to pull it once she is done:D


parr ''goomornan... this is your admin jock live from radio throne'' to eachrcha ne kiya hai....flush yahaan chall rahi hai???ya teeno side by side stalls mein hain?

[Rakhi]

Rakhi,

Tell me when u have completed

I will.......not yet done, its taking time as I am looking to give you references.

[Diplomat]

while you two are slugging it out with references and what not, I will give a simple thought to make your head spin even more.

Agreed that harassment for Dowry demands is for real.
Who do you think is making the Dowry demands? The husband, The Father-in-law or the Mother-in-law?

Think about it.

Then think about who actually gets punished.
The husband, The Father-in-law or the Mother-in-law?

Think carefully before replying.

[Rakhi]

Now we come to gender asymmetry. Uptil now, the situation was symetric. But once you add in society issues, laws, and political response, a great assymetry takes place.

i) A woman complaining about being harassed by a guy is taken seriously by the police. A man complaining of harassment at hands of a woman is not. Often, the case is not even registered.
A. I will do a little more research on this but as far as I know, a case is not registred because the guy hasnt taken steps to register it. At least at work places, harassment is taken seriously irrespective of who reports it.
ii) Dowry is defined as gifts during marriage by a spouse. It does not consider the case of gender. Yet, in its real life application by police and courts, gender is considered. Take an example. If a woman promises that she has a flat where they can stay after marriage, and the guy marries her, and there is really no flat and he walks out, she can call it "dowry harassment". The society looks upon it as dowry harassment. CRIMINAL OFFENSE

Now reverse the case. The guy tells her that he has a flat. After marriage it is found out he does not have one. She walks out. She rams him for "marriage under false pretenses" - CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

In both these cases, the guy is screwed. How is it that if the guy complains anginst false promise by woman HE is jammed, and if a woman complains of false promise by guy, HE is jammed. Rakhi, Answer this if you can.
A. I get your point. It is unfair that the guy is to be blamed either ways.This is a typical case of a girl wanting to make the guys life hell.
iii) Every divorce has become a dowry harasment case. There are divorces and if the woman is vindictive, she files a dowry harrasment case against the guy. He is screwed. Guy in Mumbai. His wife applies for divorce/dowry harasment and moves to Delhi. Case is tried in Delhi. He has to do up-down every time to Delhi. That means difficulty getting job. Cannot go abroad to make money becos criminal case pending. Has to be present in court becos he is deemed criminal. Woman asks for X amount saying that it was given by her. He has to prove it wasn't. After doing up-down for 6 years, judge retires. New judge, new Tareekh. I'm not talking about one or two people. 80% of divorces end up as dowry harasment!!! Guys are screwed. Cannot marry, cannot work, lasts for 15 years. This is shit!!! That too if he is lucky and educated. Otherwise, rot in jail. Ask around madam.

OK, I will look/ask around but the entire argument is based on the fact the the girl is vindictive. Its very much possible that she really gave the money.
Now, I know your next line of argument, both the parties (the one who gives and the one who accepts) needs to be punished. This is where the law fails and this is where we need controls in place.

That is why I am making it public. I cannot change the law. I can only change myself. So I say -

a) First, do polygamy. This is most important. Since polygamy is not accepted by courts, the marriage is null and void, and dowry enactment does not take place.
By this effectively leave a genuine grievance to dogs?
b) Follow the 11 + 1 model. Mumbai has oppressive rent control act. So no one gives on rent. They give 11 months on rent, and rentor is thrown out. Do the same. Chase girls like there is no end. Be faithful to none. Have live ins, but on a musical-chair basis. Create vanishing addresses. Create double family contacts. blah, blah, blah.


Do one thing please, Rakhi tai. Go on net and google how many divoirces end in dowry harrassment cases.

I am not going to go into polygamy and all. we both have talked about it more than enough in a thread created for polygamy.

Come on Shring, divorces can get nasty but it cannot be that most of them are filed over dowry. Anyway, since you insist, I will look around. So far I have been searching for cases (with the exception of one or two) and they are fought over alimony/custody of children etc.

My proposed solutions:
1. Instead of shouting tu tu mein mein, what is needed is something like National Commission for Men or something in similar lines.

2. Even today, more than 75% of the taxes are paid by men in India. However, according to the National Crime Records Bureau (2008), about 60,000 married men have committed suicide. ALL of them tax paying married guys. Needless to say domestic violence exists for men too and they need to be taken seriously for them to come forward without being shy.

to be continued....

[Rakhi]

All i will say is this:

Women are very calculative and they consider themselves the center of the universe. Everything they do, they seem to see it ONLY from their side. Very rarely have I seen a woman place herself in my shoes and see how I see the situation. They will also never utter the word "I feel your pain" because they don't.


Is it just going back to the same old "Men are from Mars and women are from venus" Diplomat? To me it looks like it. From my personal experience, its always women who empathize than men.

From what I have seen and gone through, men get their way; at least most of the time.

while you two are slugging it out with references and what not, I will give a simple thought to make your head spin even more.

Agreed that harassment for Dowry demands is for real.
Who do you think is making the Dowry demands? The husband, The Father-in-law or the Mother-in-law?

Think about it.

Then think about who actually gets punished.
The husband, The Father-in-law or the Mother-in-law?

Think carefully before replying.

Touche :o.

But it need not be like this. Things can be different. See my suggested solutions in post#106

[Rakhi]

Yeh mein kahaan phas gayi Friday ko?! And weird part is no one is even willing to sell popcorn today :doh:

I must admit that Rakhi adds 5 stars to this forum. Not because she is smartest or wittiest or bold-n-beautiful or whatever. But just because she is a woman and CONSISTENTLY tries to give men a point-of-view which probably is hidden to them. Similarly Rakhi also knows that the folks here (guys) are probably the honestest(in-a-way) nicest wittiest smartest bunch of guys around. As long as two parties are 'honest' to each other, whether they agree or not, there is no 'devastation'. for devastation, at least one side has to be dishonest.

:blush: :blush:
I know know that I am dealing with a bunch of smart guys PS, thats why, I think twice before saying anything :)
Now, to the topic:



Both men and women have certain aspects in their personality which is a 'blind spot' to the other gender. Women probably have one extra thing - they have a blind spot to themselves. All women are not bad. She may be good, very good, very very good. But if she is violated (anywhichway, it could be physical force or she could simply feel 'he is not keeping me happy' or 'he does not fufill my expectations'), she can get evil. And then, she loses track.
A. I still think this applies to both men and women PS. But, I guess I can never win this argument. There are too many guys on one side and me alone on another. Perhaps this is how you all feel when cornered by all women and harassed by dowry threats.
Many are bad right from the start i.e. their evil side is just waiting for the right time-&-situation to come out. Sad but true that such women have the capability to keep a man very happy till he is 'good' to her. This same women can make him go through hell if he is no longer 'good'.
A. Depends on what is 'no-longer-good' na? Like, I cannot take an extra marital affair, driving under heavy influence, physical abuse (verbal all of us go through at some point). When the above situations present themselves in front me time and again, as a person (note: I am saying person, not speaking exclusively as a woman) snaps and can turn rough.
And then there is another trait which probably applies to all women. A woman scorned does not have sense of devastation that she could cause. Bcoz duryodhan insulted draupadi, she wanted 'revenge'. She wants him punished even if it means end of the it all. This is true of all women [i think]. A man would probably settle for a lesser practical punishment if he is aware that what he is asking could cause large scale devastation. He could settle for an apology. Or maybe just skip/ignore it altogether for the larger good.
A. No, its not true for all women. Its true to women who has the means to get it. A woman who has no means to achieve what she wants would either succumb to self pity (like it happens in most cases) or contend with 'I forgive you'. I think I am digging my own grave by saying this, buy hey, its the truth. We can be lethal, just like we can be peaches and cream for dessert.


Remember, recently my bhai opened a thread where an old woman cut a guys penis off because he had raped her grand daughter? That is called revenge with in reasonable means.

Now, ever seen a documentary called "Forgiving Dr. Mengele?". Its about a woman called Eva and her twin sister Miriam. They were holocaust survivors and were subjected to notorious experiments by Dr. Mengele. They say they 'forgive' the Nazis so that they find peace. I personally think that they were bluffing, you cannot forgive Mengele. This documentary is available in Blockbuster, if you are interested. So you see, there are women who forgive.



Many men (considerable) do some kind of selfless social work. Many r doing it full time. But inspite of "Women's liberation", I am yet to know a single woman in India who genuinely works for the cause of "truly suppressed woman". Women are so badly suppressed in so many parts of india (and the world), why doesnt some teetsa work for them? These women do not even have the voice which is audible to the law. And we have smart women using their sexuality to their advantage. Both these issues have one solution - some of the women who think themselves to be 'good liberalised woman' need to work for that solution. Some, not all.
I dont know why a few women choose not to work for really deserving. One name which comes to my mind is Sudha Murthy who is helping.
Bottomline - Barring exceptions, women are (edited) wrapped up in a beautiful package. If that (edited) does not come out, consider urself lucky. If it does, be happy that the truth has shone on you. So men should either be lucky or happy. Not bad either-way.

next chapter likhoon kya? yes please

5 star! Did you say 5 star? Its been so long since i've had 5 star. Godiva just doesn't cut the mark.. not any more. I feel like having a 5 star now.

[PeaceSeeker]

5 star! Did you say 5 star? Its been so long since i've had 5 star. Godiva just doesn't cut the mark.. not any more. I feel like having a 5 star now.
ye le. itney saarey. khush.
http://www.radhaexports.com/content/products/t2_inwixujhws3wr3as.jpg

[PeaceSeeker]

next chapter likhoon kya?

Abe puchta kya hai ? mera rep power ka lafda khatam hone de tujhe to iss thread ke har post par 2-2 baar rep karunga :D

yes please

soch lo. next chapter thoda dangerous ho sakta hai. real truth cannot be said. its always unsaid. so i cannot [neither can anyone else] say it completely. the moment truth is said, it ceases to be it. conversely, if it can be said, it is not it.:smartass:

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,

This is not a response to you. I'll respond when u have finished.

To All,

This is another dimension of crime against women - a dimension which is politically not correct to say.


I was once staying in Jharkhand area as a guest of my friend who is a local Christian missionary/converter. One day, in one of the villages, a man took an axe and killed his wife in a brutal manner. My friend's wife knew the murdered lady quite well. She said she had lost more than six friends/ladies she knew in the same manner. The problem is these tribals do not have a sense of restraint. At a slight provocation, on someone saying something, he is ready to kill is wife brutally. He is also ready to kill men. They have no restraint at all. These crimes are not reported.

Now, under affirmative action, a lot of these people are in govt service. A lot more hold high posts because of assured promotions. They have power. Yet no personal restraint.

You later hear of an educated engineer from Chattisgarh stab his wife many times. You hear of an educated municipal officer, take an axe and hack a worker to death because the worker did not salute him. You hear of Police Inspector shoot his wife mercilessly. The fact that he is a tribal is never mentioned. If his wife is cut up and put in a tandoor, women cry about dowry and inhumanity. If a policeman blinds several prisoners or chops off their hands, it is a case of perversion.


But it is a case of power to a person who has no restraint. You may believe that the tribal is to blame alone. No. Usually, there are people under him who know that he has no restraint and take advantage of him. They suck up to him like crazy. He is stupid enough not to understand what is going on. Then they chaavify him to do acts which give them money. I know for a fact that in certain emotionally charged situation, if I glance at him in contempt, a small chuglee and he will hack someone.

This is used by junior officers to make money - a lot of it. The moment the heat comes on them, they "sacrifice" the tribal, by "making him do barbarious acts". If it is a murder of someone, because of his ST background he gets away. If the death is of his wife, because of women's group he is punished. Yet, in either case, the junior officers are let off because of "shifting of attention"

This is one more angle to the deaths. Just an added dimension.

[badriprasad]

Oh dear, I wasn't mass produced. I was a part of limited edition release. So, all sold out on day 1 itself; no stock left. They don't make women like me any more :D, so sorry.

You women are not only vindictive and cunning but also so cruel. To keep my spirits afloat and my hopes alive ... you could have lied ... no? ... to reject me outright like this? ... just cause I am a man in need? Shame on you and your kind. I was willing to pay with credit card ... did you know?

On a side note ... I agree ... Godiva and Lindt like most things Swiss or Europe are way over rated. I myself prefer old Mars or Dark chocolates with 60% or more of cocoa. BUT ... I pay for mine ... your poor husband has to toil all day to pay for your chocolates and candies and dresses and purses, and shoes and sandals and food.

You women are like blood sucking leeches. Never mind Shrignji ... just tell me one thing ... why you women like this?









:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Rakhi]

Rakhi,

I asked you specifically whether women feel guilt or not. I am coming to the conclusion that they don't.
And I am coming to a conclusion that you have concluded way too fast.
First, my personal life. Men have hurt me, and so have women. I have hurt men, and I have hurt women. Often, we hurt people without meaning to. This is especially true when we are young.

I have tried to make amends and apologized when I have hurt anyone - man or woman. I have found that most men who have hurt me have apologized, and made amends. Not a single woman has apologized or felt guilty.
Now now Shring, what is the mode of apology you taken and what did you expect a woman to do? My personal experience shows that both men and women feel guilty and both of them apologized to me.
And talking about guilt, how did you know that they are not feeling guilty?
Second, public life. In the dowry harrasment case, any person from the guy's side can be named. Sometimes, it is a person staying in a different town altogether!! All these people have to travel to court as it is a criminal case.
I would feel bad too, if I know that they have really not harnessed the woman. If they indeed had troubled the woman for dowry, I would not feel sorry for them that they have to travel.
I know a few old fathers/mothers of the grrom, who have died of harrassment. A 80-year old man might not be able to travel to Delhi from Mumbai now and then. Even handicapped are not barred. I know quite a few old men/women who have died because of trauma from brides/brides-to-be. I am serious about this. I mean it. Yet, the woman, the bride shows no sense of remorse.
My good friend who is working with me right now is a victim of dowry abuse.She got married to a 'supposedly good guy' and came to Toronto. From day 1 she was harassed and from day 1 the demands that she ask her parents to send money started. The money which her dad gave for their honeymoon was sent to his parents to buy new furniture in India. The money which she had brought to study masters was spent to send his parents for a trip to Egypt. When her parents refused to send her more money, she was beaten black and blue. I had to go to the train station at 4:00 AM to pick her up because that's the only time she could escape him without him noticing her. She should have called 911, but she didn't. Anyway, the next day she wanted to go back to India because she felt thats the only place she will be safe. And she did go back and filed for divorce. Since she so badly wanted to divorce him, not even alimony was asked, forget about the money which was already spent on so called honeymoon and masters.

Now, if you come back and tell me that he has to travel from Toronto or his parents have to travel from Hyderabad to courts hearing, I have no pity for either of them. Dont expect that from any woman. Just like girls you have met have shown no remorse, a few guys o have met have shown no sense of remorse.
Even in the filth of the underworld, once a person dies/is killed, the victim is left off. Even amongst the backward regions of India, if a man commits suicide, the moneylender cancels all debts. Death is the final point at which things cancel out.

This does not seem to happen here. The old man dies going from Mumbai to Delhi, the case is not withdrawn. The brother (of the groom) who for no fault of his, goes to prison, finds his career in ruins, and in despair commits suicide, the case is not withdrawn. That is why I ask - do women have a sense of guilt? I don't think so.
All your argument is based on the assumption that the guy did no wrong and he hadnt done anything to deserve this. I, as a woman would like to give benefit of doubt to the woman and like to see both sides of the story before defending either of them.
ARGUMENT OVER

Please also see above in blue. People we come across in our day to life are so different. Just because the people you have met did not show the guilt in the way you wanted them to doesnt make them any less deserving of my respect.

Argument over.

[Shringarey]

Rakhi,


1. You are arguing that men also mistreat women. Granted. To me it sounds like Dalits saying they want reservation and denying me MY seat, shouting that Dalits are hammerred in the villages. There could be a 1001 cases where men abuse women. Sure. But I still feel pretty scared that a woman can scream rape and I will be put in prison for no fault of mine. (Just as I could lose my seat to a Dalit becos of no fault of mine)

2.
From your last post, I gather that you are not against law, you are against the poor controls in place. I am with you on this.


I think you are getting me wrong here. If you read any of my posts on any topic, you will see a consistency - THAT I CANNOT CHANGE THE LAW. That is not in my power. I do not even have power over how it is implemented. I have only one simple power - that is to change myself. I am treating the Dalit reservation case and the women rape case as same. If a Dalit takes my seat, because of reservations, or a woman gets me jailed because of crying "Rape", there is little I can do about the law, the implementation or get justice. ALL of these are outside my control. I can and will change myself, and hopefully influence some people around me to change themselves.

I tackle the Dalit issue by

a) Consistently getting educated in a wide variety of subjects, so I can get in General category
b) Be deeply flexible and agile and organized in work, so that even if I cannot get into general category (say reservation reaches 100%! ), even then I can get a job
c) Study finanance and enterprise so that even if I dont get a job (because private sector reservation is 100%), I can be earn a livelihood
d) Learn different vocations/languages from different parts of the world, so that even if I cannot be an entrepreneur (say it is banned for non-Dalits), I can quickly sidestep into another country.

You may feel that all this is crap. But remember, politics is most unreasonable. We had 99.7% tax once!!! Why not 99.7% reservations??

Similar to Dalit Issue, I am handling issue against women. How? By changing myself. How? See next post

[Shringarey]

Rule 1. Dont get scared of Jail

I had started a post here (cannot locate it) on what happens if you r wrongly imprisoned. I'll tell you this - So what if you go to jail? There are two issues here
a) You going to jail and parents going to jail is different (over dowry false case)
b) Your going to jail cud have serios issues with parents - it will be a shock to them.

Forgetting both these, going to jail may not be a bad thing IF YOU ARE PREPARED. I want to make it clear at the onset, that spending years and years in jail for a crime u have not done is shit. But 3-6 months of jail as an undertrial, may have advantages.

Jails (in India) are not that bad as they may seem. You are placed in a large hall wiuth 50 other inmates. There will be 2-3 topilets between all 50 - which will be stinking and dirty. There will be no fan (authorities dont want suicides by hanging). The food is typical mess food. Yet there are possibilities. After a week of settling down, you should begin operations. You should

i) Ask warden for persmission to access the library and study law
ii) Ask warden to appoint you as teacher teaching literacy to others.

Wardens LOVE both of these. It makes the prison look good. But there is an ulterior motive to these requests. They are

i) When you study (law), you get uninterrupted time.
ii) To be a lawyer you need to be in a law school for prescribed no of years. This is for EVERYONE except jailbirds. Its a part of Indian legal loophole. Work well, be a lawyer in 6 months.
iii) Circulate around that you are become a "Vakil". That will earn respect of other inmates
iv) Your teaching the jail birds will give you prestige (even if they make noise and ridicule your efforts).

Now comes the beauty. There are two more things you should do.

i) Schmooze. Schmooze like hell. Mix with inmates. Eat food from same plate. Arm Wrestle with them. Make friends. After all they are your classmates - Tihar Jail, Class of 2011. Learn their ways. Touch their hearts. Because you are educated, they will take kindly to you. Learn who does what.
ii) Schmooze some more. Like u r at office party. Learn various things. They are all artistes in pickmocketing, lockpicking, forger, et al. They are blessed men with murders and kidnappings behind them.

When you come out after 6 months (as an undertrial that is, no blame yet fixed on you), you have
a) Studied law
b) Developed immense contact with the artistes in prison. Keep up the contacts. Smile at all till u become a millionnaire. Smile some more till u become a billionnaire. Then everyone will be nice to you.

There are many, many activities in the underworld where they require an educated learned man like you. You will rise fast as a fixer. You will be politically connected. If anyone asks you how u have developed contacts with the undewrworld, say honestly - "this particular bit(h did so-and-so and put me in prison. I made friends there. I dont lose friends. I am loyal"

Friendship and contacts made in prison are endring and last all thr our life. The bonds are deep and relationship is of trust. With such a contact net, wih your law degree, your intelligence, in no time you will be someone the world will respect.

THINK ABOUT IT. DON'T TAKE IT AS A JOKE.

Caution: If you smoke, give it up. In the microeconomy of prison, a cigarette cud easily cost u 40 Rs.

[PeaceSeeker]

Shringarey, how much can one 'learn' in life man? and how long does one one keep learning?

there has to 2 be two phases of life - one where u learn more and apply less [growing-up] and second where u apply more and learn less [grown-up]. how can one keep learning entire life with no or inadequate application? and why should one, it does not make sense either.

[chaiwaala]

With all due apologies to Rakhi Tai ... The wrath of a woman: Girl's mom finds out about boyfriend, and then ...

6kdYlIhOBFg

[Premi]

sagaai ho gayi hai ..doosri ke roop main rakhoonga ( actual talk was changed to this )


ladki is really in love... maa and others are coming in the way of true love. ( marr jaaoongi sirf eik baar aa ke mil lo )

$hit .... and you people complained about khap.... lucky guy there was no weapon available for the mother.

megha ka suit... :D:D:D:D:D

[Sane Less]

...

Caution: If you smoke, give it up. In the microeconomy of prison, a cigarette cud easily cost u 40 Rs.

First tell us what you are smoking... would love to have some of that:D

[Shringarey]

Shringarey, how much can one 'learn' in life man? and how long does one one keep learning?

there has to 2 be two phases of life - one where u learn more and apply less [growing-up] and second where u apply more and learn less [grown-up]. how can one keep learning entire life with no or inadequate application? and why should one, it does not make sense either.

I have started another thread -

http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?p=568722#post568722

See it

[Rakhi]

Caution: If you smoke, give it up. In the microeconomy of prison, a cigarette cud easily cost u 40 Rs.

Nice points, with your permission, I would like to forward this to my family members; just in case.
I am sure this applies to women as well.

[shruthi_ks]

Rule 1. Dont get scared of Jail

I had started a post here (cannot locate it) on what happens if you r wrongly imprisoned. I'll tell you this - So what if you go to jail? There are two issues here
a) You going to jail and parents going to jail is different (over dowry false case)
b) Your going to jail cud have serios issues with parents - it will be a shock to them.

Forgetting both these, going to jail may not be a bad thing IF YOU ARE PREPARED. I want to make it clear at the onset, that spending years and years in jail for a crime u have not done is shit. But 3-6 months of jail as an undertrial, may have advantages.

Jails (in India) are not that bad as they may seem. You are placed in a large hall wiuth 50 other inmates. There will be 2-3 topilets between all 50 - which will be stinking and dirty. There will be no fan (authorities dont want suicides by hanging). The food is typical mess food. Yet there are possibilities. After a week of settling down, you should begin operations. You should

i) Ask warden for persmission to access the library and study law
ii) Ask warden to appoint you as teacher teaching literacy to others.

Wardens LOVE both of these. It makes the prison look good. But there is an ulterior motive to these requests. They are

i) When you study (law), you get uninterrupted time.
ii) To be a lawyer you need to be in a law school for prescribed no of years. This is for EVERYONE except jailbirds. Its a part of Indian legal loophole. Work well, be a lawyer in 6 months.
iii) Circulate around that you are become a "Vakil". That will earn respect of other inmates
iv) Your teaching the jail birds will give you prestige (even if they make noise and ridicule your efforts).

Now comes the beauty. There are two more things you should do.

i) Schmooze. Schmooze like hell. Mix with inmates. Eat food from same plate. Arm Wrestle with them. Make friends. After all they are your classmates - Tihar Jail, Class of 2011. Learn their ways. Touch their hearts. Because you are educated, they will take kindly to you. Learn who does what.
ii) Schmooze some more. Like u r at office party. Learn various things. They are all artistes in pickmocketing, lockpicking, forger, et al. They are blessed men with murders and kidnappings behind them.

When you come out after 6 months (as an undertrial that is, no blame yet fixed on you), you have
a) Studied law
b) Developed immense contact with the artistes in prison. Keep up the contacts. Smile at all till u become a millionnaire. Smile some more till u become a billionnaire. Then everyone will be nice to you.

There are many, many activities in the underworld where they require an educated learned man like you. You will rise fast as a fixer. You will be politically connected. If anyone asks you how u have developed contacts with the undewrworld, say honestly - "this particular bit(h did so-and-so and put me in prison. I made friends there. I dont lose friends. I am loyal"

Friendship and contacts made in prison are endring and last all thr our life. The bonds are deep and relationship is of trust. With such a contact net, wih your law degree, your intelligence, in no time you will be someone the world will respect.

THINK ABOUT IT. DON'T TAKE IT AS A JOKE.

Caution: If you smoke, give it up. In the microeconomy of prison, a cigarette cud easily cost u 40 Rs.But the deciding factor for doing this is luck. Jail inmates are unpredictable criminals. They might assault you before you could befriend them. It might leave you with devastating scars. More importantly your reputation gets irreversibly ruined (in the outside world) changing your life forever even if you are fortunate to get freedom.

[Rakhi]

But the deciding factor for doing this is luck. Jail inmates are unpredictable criminals. They might assault you before you could befriend them. It might leave you with devastating scars. More importantly your reputation gets irreversibly ruined (in the outside world) changing your life forever even if you are fortunate to get freedom.

I could be wrong but I think the point to note here is to make the best out of worst of situations.

[Shringarey]

Shruti:

More importantly your reputation gets irreversibly ruined (in the outside world) changing your life forever even if you are fortunate to get freedom.

I had specifically asked a question here - on this board itself - what should you do if you are in prison and are released. Yes, your reputation does get a beating. But this is what you can do -

i) Write a book "My life in Tihar Jail". Spice it up. It needn't be the truth. But don't make it "Oh how badly I was treated....." If it sells, you become a superstar.

ii) Your contacts will compensate for loss of reputation (hopefully)

I still have to find out what to do. I am not so sure yet. When i find out, I'll let u know.

[Rakhi]

To my surprise, when I tried to google-search on what my rights are if I ever find myself in prison, there is nothing really coming up!!

Anyone here know what are our rights? A call to a lawyer at least?

[swami]

In India you dont have any rights in front of the police unless you have some high level contacts :D
To my surprise, when I tried to google-search on what my rights are if I ever find myself in prison, there is nothing really coming up!!

Anyone here know what are our rights? A call to a lawyer at least?

[jeetiaf]

In India you dont have any rights in front of the police unless you have some high level contacts :D

or else show some gandhis, you have all the rights including running illegal business from the jail:D


jeetIAF