Germany , the world's favourite nation ,hates India as much as Pakistan and China !!

[ashdoc]

What must be music to the ears of die-hard Germany supporters is the fact that Germany is the world's most favourably viewed nation ,with 59 percent people across the globe viewing it favourably :)

But here comes the dampner--Germans hate India almost as much as the pukis and chinks :(:D

Now what could be the reason for this dislike ??:dontknow::confused:

Calling upon the Germany experts on the forum to discuss it...........;)

Of course ,China's and pakistan's hatred is well known......in fact I would be surprised to hear if they said anything positive :smartass:

Copy/paste follows--

A BBC Poll across 28 countries finds that global perceptions about the US have become more positive, while those of India are more negative as compared to a year ago.

For the first time since 2005, views of the US are more positive than negative, leading the Steven Kull, director of the Program on International Policy Attitudes (Pipa) to conclude: “the ‘Obama effect’ is real.”

Interestingly, India is one of just two countries (the other being Turkey) in which perceptions of the US became more negative. In India, positive perceptions dipped from 43 per cent to 39 per cent and negative views increased from 20 to 28 per cent. The poll shows that the only two countries to have majorities with negative views of the United States are Turkey (70%) and Pakistan (52%).

“Worldwide, views of India lean only modestly to the positive, barely edging out views of China. Among 27 countries polled, 15 are positive about India‘s influence in world affairs, ten are negative and two are divided. On average, among 27 countries, 36 per cent are positive and 31 per cent negative about India‘s influence. A high 33 per cent d do not provide an answer or are neutral,” says the report.

China, Pakistan and Germany are found to be the most negative about India, with 47 percent, 48 percent and 46 percent of those polled from these countries expressing negative views. South Korea and the US are the most positive about India, with 56 percent and 55 percent respectively stating that they have positive perceptions.

Negative views about India in Portugal and Italy have decreased since 2009, while in France and Germany positive views have risen.

Germany is the most favourably viewed nation (an average of 59% positive), followed by Japan (53%), the United Kingdom (52%), Canada (51%), and France (49%). The European Union is viewed positively by 53 per cent. In contrast, Iran is the least favourably viewed nation (15%), followed by Pakistan (16%), North Korea (17%), Israel (19%), and Russia (30%). China has remained almost stable: its positive ratings remain at 40 per cent, while its negative ratings have fallen a little, to 38 per cent.

http://blog.livemint.com/the-development-dossier/2010/04/19/bbc-poll-china-pakistan-germany-most-negative-about-india/





Replies:32 Views: 372 Original forum: International Politics
Winner of Crown of the Week (ending Sep 10th, 2010)
http://www.echarcha.com/forum/images/week_crown.jpg - Winner of Crown of the week!

[milanfanabhi]

they love turks and poles who helped them in multiplying after they lost their generations in wwII,where were the indian fuck machines when germany needed them so bad..

[viking]

What must be music to the ears of die-hard Germany supporters is the fact that Germany is the world's most favourably viewed nation ,with 59 percent people across the globe viewing it favourably :)

But here comes the dampner--Germans hate India almost as much as the pukis and chinks :(:D

Now what could be the reason for this dislike ??:dontknow::confused:

Calling upon the Germany experts on the forum to discuss it...........;)

Of course ,China's and pakistan's hatred is well known......in fact I would be surprised to hear if they said anything positive :smartass:

Copy/paste follows--

A BBC Poll across 28 countries finds that global perceptions about the US have become more positive, while those of India are more negative as compared to a year ago.

For the first time since 2005, views of the US are more positive than negative, leading the Steven Kull, director of the Program on International Policy Attitudes (Pipa) to conclude: “the ‘Obama effect’ is real.”

Interestingly, India is one of just two countries (the other being Turkey) in which perceptions of the US became more negative. In India, positive perceptions dipped from 43 per cent to 39 per cent and negative views increased from 20 to 28 per cent. The poll shows that the only two countries to have majorities with negative views of the United States are Turkey (70%) and Pakistan (52%).

“Worldwide, views of India lean only modestly to the positive, barely edging out views of China. Among 27 countries polled, 15 are positive about India‘s influence in world affairs, ten are negative and two are divided. On average, among 27 countries, 36 per cent are positive and 31 per cent negative about India‘s influence. A high 33 per cent d do not provide an answer or are neutral,” says the report.

China, Pakistan and Germany are found to be the most negative about India, with 47 percent, 48 percent and 46 percent of those polled from these countries expressing negative views. South Korea and the US are the most positive about India, with 56 percent and 55 percent respectively stating that they have positive perceptions.

Negative views about India in Portugal and Italy have decreased since 2009, while in France and Germany positive views have risen.

Germany is the most favourably viewed nation (an average of 59% positive), followed by Japan (53%), the United Kingdom (52%), Canada (51%), and France (49%). The European Union is viewed positively by 53 per cent. In contrast, Iran is the least favourably viewed nation (15%), followed by Pakistan (16%), North Korea (17%), Israel (19%), and Russia (30%). China has remained almost stable: its positive ratings remain at 40 per cent, while its negative ratings have fallen a little, to 38 per cent.

http://blog.livemint.com/the-development-dossier/2010/04/19/bbc-poll-china-pakistan-germany-most-negative-about-india/

Many unclean and uncouth Indians have migrated to Germany illegally. This may be one of the reason.

Many Germans may have come to India as tourists and seen Indians defecate on the streets and seen people spit paan from buses maybe even seen some blowing their noses and allowing the yellowish green mucus land on the streets, all in the name of poverty. Who knows!

Indian soldiers were sent to fight Germans in WW2 by the British on Gandhi's consent, this could be a reason who knows!

Dont many Indians hate Germans because they killed Jews? Don't some of us pride ourselves in calling even the present day Germans as Nazis?:rolleyes:

[rameshp]

Many unclean and uncouth Indians have migrated to Germany illegally. This may be one of the reason.

Many Germans may have come to India as tourists and seen Indians defecate on the streets and seen people spit paan from buses maybe even seen some blowing their noses and allowing the yellowish green mucus land on the streets, all in the name of poverty. Who knows!

Indian soldiers were sent to fight Germans in WW2 by the British on Gandhi's consent, this could be a reason who knows!

Dont many Indians hate Germans because they killed Jews? Don't some of us pride ourselves in calling even the present day Germans as Nazis?:rolleyes:

Yep. Its the fault of Indians. Nothing wrong with a bunch of brash, nazi assh*les! Fuck germany!:D

[badriprasad]

I find hard to believe this whatever it was. Since when Germany became world's favorite nation? I say, bullshit.

[viking]

I find hard to believe this whatever it was. Since when Germany became world's favorite nation? I say, bullshit.

No but shit attracts flies. You were attracted by the hospitality of Australia isnt it?:rolleyes:

[viking]

Yep. Its the fault of Indians. Nothing wrong with a bunch of brash, nazi assh*les! Fuck germany!:D

Jai Telangana!:up:

[echarcha]

I dont understand why Germany would hate India? :scratch:

We have so many Mercedes and BMW in India, even Porsche now. Plus we have some models and spares for Mercedez Benz being manufactured in India with Tata.

We have many German engineering companies in India. Then why do they hate us? :scratch: Is this survey for real?

I mean if Saudi, Pakistan, etc hated us, then we know why, but Germany? :scratch: find it hard to believe.

[viking]

I dont understand why Germany would hate India? :scratch:

We have so many Mercedes and BMW in India, even Porsche now. Plus we have some models and spares for Mercedez Benz being manufactured in India with Tata.

We have many German engineering companies in India. Then why do they hate us? :scratch: Is this survey for real?

I mean if Saudi, Pakistan, etc hated us, then we know why, but Germany? :scratch: find it hard to believe.

I'm yet to come across a German who speaks about India in a way that it can be construed to be hidden hate for India.

Indians are a rare breed though. Indians support Pakistan (look at the so many TV shows with a load full of Pakis, Aman Ki Asha bullshit etc) who kicks their ass every day, they support England (in soccer games) who they claim kicked their dirty asses in the past. BUT..they hate Israel because the Jews it seems torment the innocent Arabs and they hate Germans because they killed Jews in the past. :D kaisi chutia jaat hai ye Indians ki!:D

[jeetiaf]

Germans did as much damage as they could to India and to the whole world.
They were the pioneer of racist theory, they only included Aryans into Indian history, north Indians became indo-aryans and south Indians became Dravidian on the basis of language though there is no genetic proof that can be corroborated to it.
Germans were unable to explain why baluch languages and Dravidian languages are so similar

They damaged Indian social structure in worst way, and you can see it as north Indians
Vs south Indians in India

jeetIAF

[milanfanabhi]

current germans are not pure.60% of them are from eastern europe and turkey.It is easy to get a schengen for germany(EU) than getting a US visa.

yes they do think of Indians lowly.My brother in law worked for a german giant for 6 years.And when there floated a rumour that an Indian company like TCS or infy is going to buy it,the germans were very scared.

My sister and my bil were insulted by their landlords when they were about to come to india from germany.My sister failed to report about a leakage in a wall outside the toilet area,and the landlady jumped on to her saying these people are used to living in leaking apartments.She also took 10% of her deposit claiming that the tenants failed to report the leakage on time,which caused more damage by now.The leakage might be existing before they even came and it was external ,so my sister couldnt argue or prove them wrong.

On the other hand her neighbours were very warm ,all germans ,no turks or ghanians..And sent her food(indian food) when she was pregnant.The grocery store owner ,again a german ,made an exception for her by sending all groceries to her place.

so we canot generalise at all and online surveys are full of shit,where people having no real life ,go and take those shitty surveys.

[viking]

Germans did as much damage as they could to India and to the whole world.
They were the pioneer of racist theory, they only included Aryans into Indian history, north Indians became indo-aryans and south Indians became Dravidian on the basis of language though there is no genetic proof that can be corroborated to it.
Germans were unable to explain why baluch languages and Dravidian languages are so similar

They damaged Indian social structure in worst way, and you can see it as north Indians
Vs south Indians in India

jeetIAF

So that Aryan invasion of India theory was a German invention is it? Someone told me the British devised it to enable them to stay on in India. So now the British are out of it, is it?:rolleyes:

[viking]

yes they do think of Indians lowly.My brother in law worked for a german giant for 6 years.And when there floated a rumour that an Indian company like TCS or infy is going to buy it,the germans were very scared.



One of my close relatives worked for German companies for 35 years and excelled in his career. Another of my close relatives lives in a German town for almost 40 years. My cousin has married a swiss German. No they have never complained of any discrimination. I lived with them for a week in their house. Believe me all their friends had invited us over to dinner that week. I myself work closely with Germans, I'm as comfortable with them as they are with me. I guess it's the way you see the glass, half full or empty.

Also on my recent trip to Germany, some Indians (always innocent in this thread) were put up in a Hotel. The Hotels rooms in Europe are really small, unless you stay in a five star. One fat gentleman hurt himself with the hand shower while bathing, so what does he do the next day? He buys a bucket and a tumbler similar to those he bought when in India and coolly had a bath outside the bathroom on the carpet, complete with soap and resulting foam etc. The hotel manager also found his underwear (washed clean) of course being put for drying on the bed. The manager was so shocked that he screamed, "get these animals out of here". Of course our poor innocent Indian's immediately said that Germans are racist but no one realized that the fat pig who had a bath on the carpet was an animal indeed. The same hotel (which had a small kitchenette) housed another innocent Indian who used to shove cabbage leftovers, egg shells and onion peels down with the flush. The drainage which was not meant for a tabela was clogged. The manager who had excused the pig's incident was once again furious.

Problem is that Indians love to save money when abroad, they obviously are not as clean as an average German/European is anyways. Spitting on the roads, draining mucus from the nose onto the roads, scratching their groin while speaking to others, throwing out banana peels from moving vehicles is not a known phenomenon in Germany or Europe.

If you did engg. you must have visited the hostel rooms of some of the folks there, hope you saw the mess. I too feel that many Indians, if not all, can indeed live in a sty comfortably!

I guess Indians feel Mughals were better than Germans since they did not build concentration camps for Indians but used swords instead :D

[ashdoc]

So that Aryan invasion of India theory was a German invention is it? Someone told me the British devised it to enable them to stay on in India. So now the British are out of it, is it?:rolleyes:

the aryan invasion theory was first elucidated by german philologist max mueller.

he studied sanskrit and found remarkable similarities between it and certain european languages ,which led to the conclusion that the people who devised sanskrit came from the same stock as europeans .

this was quickly seized upon by racists.

max mueller disapproved of this ,but other germans made much of it.

http://imgur.com/1gTzy.jpg (http://imgur.com/1gTzy.jpg)

above--max mueller on an indian stamp

[viking]

the aryan invasion theory was first elucidated by german philologist max mueller.

he studied sanskrit and found remarkable similarities between it and certain european languages ,which led to the conclusion that the people who devised sanskrit came from the same stock as europeans .

this was quickly seized upon by racists.

max mueller disapproved of this ,but other germans made much of it.

http://imgur.com/1gTzy.jpg (http://imgur.com/1gTzy.jpg)

above--max mueller on an indian stamp

Okay so i'm Aryan is it? Well I'm proud of it!:up:

[ashdoc]

Okay so i'm Aryan is it? Well I'm proud of it!:up:

yes ,theory is true ,and i believe it :)

since i am a upper-caste , chances are that i am one too......

the problem with this theory is that it makes many of the hindus like you and me as foreign as the much -hated muslim invaders we rant against ;):D

modern hindutva-vadis have opposed the theory .

the RSS and people like arun shourie have attacked the theory ,claiming that indo-aryans originated in india.......

their is no denying its truthfulness however .......

[Randheer]

yes ,theory is true ,and i believe it :)

since i am a upper-caste , chances are that i am one too......

the problem with this theory is that it makes many of the hindus like you and me as foreign as the much -hated muslim invaders we rant against ;):D

modern hindutva-vadis have opposed the theory .

the RSS and people like arun shourie have attacked the theory ,claiming that indo-aryans originated in india.......

their is no denying its truthfulness however .......

The so called Dravidians are much better Hindus than Northis. I can say after being here for some time. So even if Aryans were outsiders then they got converted to Hindusim :)

[Randheer]

Kudos to JeetIAF :up::up: for pointing what pain Maxmuller caused

[arun]

Dear Charchans,

I lived in Germany for 7 years, though not in one stretch but the period stretched in four decades 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and therefore, I feel, I have the advantage of judging the Germans better. All these years I have worked in multinational German companies like AEG, Siemens and Pferd Rueggeberg.

In all these years I was never given even the feeling of inferiority by my colleagues or superiors.
I arrived in Germany when I was just 22 years (1961) and had never travelled outside my state in India. The initial fear of being alone in a strenge country melted within a few days because I got integrated in the society. Obviously I had to strive to assimilate with the German way of life and that is pretty obvious. The English say "be a Roman when in Rome". I have half a dozen friends from 60s. I can go to stay in their family without any invitation even today.

In 71 when my services were transferred to Germany I was married and wanted to bring my wife to Germany too. Therefore, I needed an apartment. To find an apartment in big city like W.Berlin was difficult even to a single German but my friend got me one. 1 bedroom, hall kitchen, balcony looking out to Berrnauer Strasse wall and a toilet block. Apartment in a brand new Housing Society that too fully furnished for only DM 175/- (warm). The Society Officials were apprehensive about this and told my friend that after six months they will make inquiries with my neighbours and if all are comfortable with us then only I would get to continue to stay there. My friend who organised the apartment never even mentioned this to me i.e. about this apprehension. My wife arrived just before Christmas. She could not speak even one word of German. Everything was hunkydorry because I had holidays and we were invited in different families almost every day during those holidays. The problem would have started only when I started attending my work from 0700 to 1700 hours everyday after the holidays. We had two neighbours on the same floor. One was a very young family with a small daughter and in the other lived two widowed middle aged sisters. It was my first day to work after christmas holidays and when I came back from work I found my apartment locked. I was worried about my wife. As I was opening my apartment, the neighbours door got opened and the lady addressed to me. Your wife is with us, please come in. My wife had very easily broken the ice or else she would have gone crazy sitting at home when the outside atmosphere was also always gloomy and cold. My wife was adopted by the two sisters and they were called Mutty(the elder one) and Mavshee (the younger one). The friendship grew by every day and when we decided to come back to India after about two years it became difficult to say good bye to those old beauties. They wept as if their own children were departing for ever.
After six months when Housing Society bosses made the inquiry there was a unanimous statement by one and all that the Indians must stay as long as they want.

In all 40 years of my association with Germans I was not discriminated even once. I know many of my Indian colleagues who were veggies had problems in Germany. These days almost all well educated Germans understand and speak English. I lived in Germany when almost nobody understood English.

Based on my experience of so many years I can vouch that Germans are exceedingly humane folk and almost everybody repent for what happened in Germany in 1930s. You will find dirty people with dirty mentality in all Societies and Germans can not be exception to that. But all Germans can and should not be labled as Nazis thbis will be a vety very gross and sad statement.

[ashdoc]

The so called Dravidians are much better Hindus than Northis. I can say after being here for some time. So even if Aryans were outsiders then they got converted to Hindusim :)

hinduism is certainly an aryan religion ,not dravidian ........but yes aryans did make every effort to assimilate the dravidians peacefully in it......

pashupati ,the dravidian fertility god was assimilated as shiva ,also a fertility god represented in temples by the union of his linga with his wife's yoni........and given a much exalted position as destroyer of the three worlds.

[jeetiaf]

So that Aryan invasion of India theory was a German invention is it? Someone told me the British devised it to enable them to stay on in India. So now the British are out of it, is it?:rolleyes:

Max Muller was one of the greatest historian of all times, he is the one who read whole of Sanskrit texts and was pundit of all Vedas, he stayed in India for very long time, Hindu texts were very advanced, Hindus knew reading, writing long before whites knew it, Aryan means noble or some times his highness, nothing more than that, there was no German word Aryan before that. Max Muller coined word Aryan as new racial thing to again prove white racial superiority. And later denied it, British capitalized on it to prolong their stay in India. No Indian is genetically identical to whites. My conscience says if theory of Aryan race is true than it means theory of martial race is also true.

As far as hating Indians is concerned, economics between Indians and Germans is going good; they do not pose any strategic threat to India as of now.

India and china fight on weekly basis, but still trade between two countries is $60 billion.

We hate Muslims on daily basis but still UAE is biggest trading partner with India.

German love or hatred never matters to average Indian in any way.

jeetIAF

[jeetiaf]

yes ,theory is true ,and i believe it :)

since i am a upper-caste , chances are that i am one too......

the problem with this theory is that it makes many of the hindus like you and me as foreign as the much -hated muslim invaders we rant against ;):D

modern hindutva-vadis have opposed the theory .

the RSS and people like arun shourie have attacked the theory ,claiming that indo-aryans originated in india.......

their is no denying its truthfulness however .......

Your knowledge of history is very sound; I believe you must have read about Harappa civilization as well.


They worshipped bull and Pashupatinath just like Nandi and Shivji in hindus now.
the concept of vermillion hair parting is evidently found in Harappa
Brahmins thing like kamandal
They measured in multiple of 16, just like solah aana in modern India.
Fire altars (yagna kunda) are also there in these sites.

6. Phallus (linga) worship was practiced in Harappa civilization as well

Besides Hindu texts like mahabharat refers to place like gandhar, modern day Kandhar, purushpur, madernday Peshawar, why not even single text refer to places in Iran though civilization of Mesopotamia was contemporary to Harappa and came into existence probably before Harappa.

Is the color is really the distinction between races? the Greeks are twice brighter than whites of South Africa as I see here in Congo. Though I do not know much of anthropology but more we move towards equator darker are the people and vice versa.
The communities which were more prone to sunlight grew darker and those who were not became brighter, I think

Baluci and Dravidian languages are similar but baluchis are more brighter in color than Dravidian, how? Or the relation between baluchis and Dravidians just a coincidence?

Like I doubt each and every postulate of theory of martial races
I doubt each and every postulate of theory of Aryan invasion



jeetIAF

[echarcha]

I love to have German food like sausages, bratwurst, their version of protein multigrain bread and the condiment called sauerkraut. And German beer offcourse!! :cheers: but have given up on any kind of alcohol for more than a year now.:(

[Randheer]

pashupati ,the dravidian fertility god was assimilated as shiva ,also a fertility god represented in temples by the union of his linga with his wife's yoni........and given a much exalted position as destroyer of the three worlds.

If Pashupati was coined as Shiva then why does he lives in Kailash which is not even North India but in China :D.

Ravan supposedly a Daravidian went to Kailash via Vaidnaath dhaam in Bihar :). He lived a great life in Lanka.

There was no need for German Aryans to come to India. It is too far. Even now days take 10 hours by flight :D. There were many other countries close to them

[badriprasad]

There is more similarity between German language and Sanskrit than dissimilarities, I read in a magazine.

:up: Jeetsinghji, considering your age, you are a knowledgeable person.

[ashdoc]

Besides Hindu texts like mahabharat refers to place like gandhar, modern day Kandhar, purushpur, madernday Peshawar, why not even single text refer to places in Iran though civilization of Mesopotamia was contemporary to Harappa and came into existence probably before Harappa.


Baluci and Dravidian languages are similar but baluchis are more brighter in color than Dravidian, how? Or the relation between baluchis and Dravidians just a coincidence?

Like I doubt each and every postulate of theory of martial races
I doubt each and every postulate of theory of Aryan invasion

jeetIAF

the aryans did not pass through mesopotamia........mesopotamia is iraq , not iran.

anyway the aryans came from southern russia to central asia ,and then through afghanistan to india .

in central asia ,they broke into two branches , one went to iran ,and the other to india.

so the indian aryans never passed through iran :)

the iranian aryans also did not go to mesopotamia ( iraq ).

before the aryans came ,the dravidians dominated the whole subcontinent.......so it is not surprising that language of theirs has survived in baluchistan.......possibly the aryans mixed with the local dravidians there and accepted their language ,instead of imposing their own.

[ashdoc]

If Pashupati was coined as Shiva then why does he lives in Kailash which is not even North India but in China :D.

Ravan supposedly a Daravidian went to Kailash via Vaidnaath dhaam in Bihar :). He lived a great life in Lanka.

There was no need for German Aryans to come to India. It is too far. Even now days take 10 hours by flight :D. There were many other countries close to them

shiva living in kailash is all mythology:) .....just like indra residing in heaven :D

however ,the existence of a remarkably shiva like god among dravidians points to his being co-opted by the aryans in order to encourage the dravidians to join them in forging a religion.

where he is believed to reside is not important.......he doesn't exist anyway :D:D

who knows whetther ravan existed or not ??:D:D

aryans didnt come from germany , they originated in southern russia ,from where several branches of the went in different directions ,one goinig to germany.

thats why the word '' caucasian '' is used to describe whites ,as the caucasius mountains exist in southern russia .:)

[raniraja]

shiva living in kailash is all mythology:) .....just like indra residing in heaven :D

however ,the existence of a remarkably shiva like god among dravidians points to his being co-opted by the aryans in order to encourage the dravidians to join them in forging a religion.

where he is believed to reside is not important.......he doesn't exist anyway :D:D

who knows whetther ravan existed or not ??:D:D

aryans didnt come from germany , they originated in southern russia ,from where several branches of the went in different directions ,one goinig to germany.

thats why the word '' caucasian '' is used to describe whites ,as the caucasius mountains exist in southern russia .:)Yesh.. then they all assumed different IDs and logged on to echarcha.

Morya re, bappa morya re..

[chitrala]

shiva living in kailash is all mythology:) .....just like indra residing in heaven :D

however ,the existence of a remarkably shiva like god among dravidians points to his being co-opted by the aryans in order to encourage the dravidians to join them in forging a religion.

where he is believed to reside is not important.......he doesn't exist anyway :D:D

who knows whetther ravan existed or not ??:D:D

aryans didnt come from germany , they originated in southern russia ,from where several branches of the went in different directions ,one goinig to germany.

thats why the word '' caucasian '' is used to describe whites ,as the caucasius mountains exist in southern russia .:)


Interestingly, caucasian is perhaps the most racist and white supremacist term, and it is used extensively in schools and researches.

All these german praisers dont know that in Blumenbach's theory we rank lower than even yellow people.

[jeetiaf]

the aryans did not pass through mesopotamia........mesopotamia is iraq , not iran.

anyway the aryans came from southern russia to central asia ,and then through afghanistan to india .

in central asia ,they broke into two branches , one went to iran ,and the other to india.

so the indian aryans never passed through iran :)

the iranian aryans also did not go to mesopotamia ( iraq ).

before the aryans came ,the dravidians dominated the whole subcontinent.......so it is not surprising that language of theirs has survived in baluchistan.......possibly the aryans mixed with the local dravidians there and accepted their language ,instead of imposing their own.
I know Mesopotamia near Basra in Iraq, Iraq and Iran border each other just like India and Pakistan

Zoroastrian also mention god named varuna, mitra and indra, there is an inscription found in Assyria in Iran.

If Aryans mixed with Dravidians in Baluchistan and north India not in south India, so again why all of north Indians are as bright as baluchis.

There are only three races, mongoloid, negroid and Caucasian, if Aryan are Caucasian then to which racial stock do Dravidian belong?

And why not even single Hindu text refers to places similar to Moscow, volvograd etc etc in any of the stories

Why goddess mata rani durgaji is described with black eyes in Vedas? Why not blue eyes?

Are Rama, Krishna, and Shiva actually Dravidian deities not Aryan as they are dark skinned?

Mythological animal is bull(nandi), vulture (jatayu), bear (jamwant), monkey (hanumanji), why not the creatures like white bears, or mountain fox that are found in Russia.

Finally in present stock of population, who can be categorized as Aryans?

PS: rig veda was assigned age between 1500 BC to 2000 BC by max muller, it confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years.

Upinder singh, DU historian was my didi’s guide while she was in ph.d, according to her, bishop usher calculated the earth was created on 23 october 4004 BCE, so max muller has to fix all history with in the span of 6000 years. Great flood and noah of ark occurred around 2500 BCE, Harappa civilization existed around 3500 BCE, and it didn’t get destroyed in flood.

jeetIAF

[jeetiaf]

the aryans did not pass through mesopotamia........mesopotamia is iraq , not iran.

anyway the aryans came from southern russia to central asia ,and then through afghanistan to india .

in central asia ,they broke into two branches , one went to iran ,and the other to india.

so the indian aryans never passed through iran :)

the iranian aryans also did not go to mesopotamia ( iraq ).

before the aryans came ,the dravidians dominated the whole subcontinent.......so it is not surprising that language of theirs has survived in baluchistan.......possibly the aryans mixed with the local dravidians there and accepted their language ,instead of imposing their own.
I know Mesopotamia near Basra in Iraq, Iraq and Iran border each other just like India and Pakistan

Zoroastrian also mention god named varuna, mitra and indra, there is an inscription found in Assyria in Iran.

If Aryans mixed with Dravidians in Baluchistan and north India not in south India, so again why all of north Indians are as bright as baluchis.

There are only three races, mongoloid, negroid and Caucasian, if Aryan are Caucasian then to which racial stock do Dravidian belong?

And why not even single Hindu text refers to places similar to Moscow, volvograd etc etc in any of the stories

Why goddess mata rani durgaji is described with black eyes in Vedas? Why not blue eyes?

Are Rama, Krishna, and Shiva actually Dravidian deities not Aryan as they are dark skinned?

Mythological animal is bull(nandi), vulture (jatayu), bear (jamwant), monkey (hanumanji), why not the creatures like white bears, or mountain fox that are found in Russia.

Finally in present stock of population, who can be categorized as Aryans?

PS: rig veda was assigned age between 1500 BC to 2000 BC by max muller, it confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years.

Upinder singh, DU historian was my didi’s guide while she was in ph.d, according to her, bishop usher calculated the earth was created on 23 october 4004 BCE, so max muller has to fix all history with in the span of 6000 years. Great flood and noah of ark occurred around 2500 BCE, Harappa civilization existed around 3500 BCE, and it didn’t get destroyed in flood.

jeetIAF

[jeetiaf]

shiva living in kailash is all mythology:) .....just like indra residing in heaven :D

however ,the existence of a remarkably shiva like god among dravidians points to his being co-opted by the aryans in order to encourage the dravidians to join them in forging a religion.

where he is believed to reside is not important.......he doesn't exist anyway :D:D

who knows whetther ravan existed or not ??:D:D

aryans didnt come from germany , they originated in southern russia ,from where several branches of the went in different directions ,one goinig to germany.

thats why the word '' caucasian '' is used to describe whites ,as the caucasius mountains exist in southern russia .:)
Point here is not whether all these deities do exist or not, point is why mahabharat and ramayan are unable to cross kailash in north, kandhar in west, assam in east and sri lanka in south. Why it is not reaching to Caucasus Mountain but reach only till kailash

Yaar, is there any genetic link between germans and us, because I don’t find any similarity between us?

jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

I know Mesopotamia near Basra in Iraq, Iraq and Iran border each other just like India and Pakistan

Zoroastrian also mention god named varuna, mitra and indra, there is an inscription found in Assyria in Iran.

If Aryans mixed with Dravidians in Baluchistan and north India not in south India, so again why all of north Indians are as bright as baluchis.

There are only three races, mongoloid, negroid and Caucasian, if Aryan are Caucasian then to which racial stock do Dravidian belong?

And why not even single Hindu text refers to places similar to Moscow, volvograd etc etc in any of the stories

Why goddess mata rani durgaji is described with black eyes in Vedas? Why not blue eyes?

Are Rama, Krishna, and Shiva actually Dravidian deities not Aryan as they are dark skinned?

Mythological animal is bull(nandi), vulture (jatayu), bear (jamwant), monkey (hanumanji), why not the creatures like white bears, or mountain fox that are found in Russia.

Finally in present stock of population, who can be categorized as Aryans?

PS: rig veda was assigned age between 1500 BC to 2000 BC by max muller, it confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years.

Upinder singh, DU historian was my didi’s guide while she was in ph.d, according to her, bishop usher calculated the earth was created on 23 october 4004 BCE, so max muller has to fix all history with in the span of 6000 years. Great flood and noah of ark occurred around 2500 BCE, Harappa civilization existed around 3500 BCE, and it didn’t get destroyed in flood.

jeetIAF

Point here is not whether all these deities do exist or not, point is why mahabharat and ramayan are unable to cross kailash in north, kandhar in west, assam in east and sri lanka in south. Why it is not reaching to Caucasus Mountain but reach only till kailash

Yaar, is there any genetic link between germans and us, because I don’t find any similarity between us?

jeetIAF

hinduism was created in india ,when intermingling between aryans and dravidians was already occuring.

at that time , the southern russian original home of the aryans had long been forgotten ,and the generation of aryans who created the gods like shiva ,vishnu etc had not ever seen southern russia.........it was their ancestors who had lived there , not themselves.

they had never seen the russian animals ,and of course , moscow and volgograd didnt exist.

when the aryans were in punjab ,they worshipped the elements of nature like fire ( agni ) ,varuna ( rain god ) etc ,and their chief god was indra........note these were all fair-skinned gods.

as they moved into the gangetic plain ,the intermingling between the aryan and dravidian races became more prominent ,and it was the holy trinity ( brahma , vishnu ,mahesh ) that became more prominent than indra , and some of their gods became dark-skinned.

when one becomes indian ,ones horizon becomes limited to this country alone.

historically indians have never looked beyond india ,except in recent times.

one never hears of indian kings embarking on foreign conquests or adventures.

once they became indian ,the horizon of aryans became limited to india, and they could not think beyond kailash assam ,kandahar etc.

[jeetiaf]

hinduism was created in india ,when intermingling between aryans and dravidians was already occuring.

at that time , the southern russian original home of the aryans had long been forgotten ,and the generation of aryans who created the gods like shiva ,vishnu etc had not ever seen southern russia.........it was their ancestors who had lived there , not themselves.

they had never seen the russian animals ,and of course , moscow and volgograd didnt exist.

when the aryans were in punjab ,they worshipped the elements of nature like fire ( agni ) ,varuna ( rain god ) etc ,and their chief god was indra........note these were all fair-skinned gods.

as they moved into the gangetic plain ,the intermingling between the aryan and dravidian races became more prominent ,and it was the holy trinity ( brahma , vishnu ,mahesh ) that became more prominent than indra , and some of their gods became dark-skinned.

when one becomes indian ,ones horizon becomes limited to this country alone.

historically indians have never looked beyond india ,except in recent times.

one never hears of indian kings embarking on foreign conquests or adventures.

once they became indian ,the horizon of aryans became limited to india, and they could not think beyond kailash assam ,kandahar etc.


Rig veda confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years taking age of Rig Veda around 1500 BCE it records history of 7532 years, homo sapiens are there since 10,000 years, (and an ape called ramapithicus later evolved to human beings via crow-magnuns was Indian.) It mentions gods like indra, mitra and varun, same goes to the Zoroastrians, they worship in place called fire temple, so considering both of them migrated from South Russia, so how even they failed to record any such migration?

Ramayan confirms that sun moved from sea to sea, Bay of Bengal to Arabian Sea.
Maharishi valmiki was from lower caste, why would, a native Indian will give an exalted status to ram that has migrated?

Theory puts that Aryans conducted raids on Dravidian, but why not even a single site of Harappa has found remains of Aryans, it has only found remains of local residents and they are in proper order as if they were buried with various things like pots, jewelry, etc etc, no remains of Aryans

Aryans are known for chariot based fighting as noted in zend avesta, but to cross Hindu Kush mountains chariots are obsolete thing plus horse bones found inside Harappa sites and the idols of chariot again confirms to a degree that probably the residents of Harappa and Aryans were same thing.

Finally is there any genetic similarity between Indians and Germans or Europeans?

I will produce more proofs on it once I reach India on this; I have whole research paper on it.


jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

Rig veda confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years taking age of Rig Veda around 1500 BCE it records history of 7532 years, homo sapiens are there since 10,000 years, (and an ape called ramapithicus later evolved to human beings via crow-magnuns was Indian.) It mentions gods like indra, mitra and varun, same goes to the Zoroastrians, they worship in place called fire temple, so considering both of them migrated from South Russia, so how even they failed to record any such migration?

we can infer from the rig veda , but to believe everything it said is not correct.......

believing the genealogy of 52 kings is not correct , as it is all mythology.......

you say that zoroashtrians have similar gods.......so it means they have some connection with the indian aryans........

...........so where did they migrate from........india ???

if so ,then why did they not record THAT migration ??????

obviously records of such migrations dont exist......


Ramayan confirms that sun moved from sea to sea, Bay of Bengal to Arabian Sea.
Maharishi valmiki was from lower caste, why would, a native Indian will give an exalted status to ram that has migrated?

as I already said , the intermingling between aryans and dravidians was complete in north india at time of ramayan.

there was little animosity between aryans and dravidians......

the theory that aryans and dravidians were at loggerheads has been perpetuated by ' secular ' and communist historians in order to divide the hindus.......

lower castes ,even today ,in the age of mandal ,are bhakts of ram......

to valmiki ,ram was as indian as any other person.....

the concept of aryans as outsiders never existed except in the very early stages of migration......




Theory puts that Aryans conducted raids on Dravidian, but why not even a single site of Harappa has found remains of Aryans, it has only found remains of local residents and they are in proper order as if they were buried with various things like pots, jewelry, etc etc, no remains of Aryans

new research has confirmed that mohenjo-daro and harappa were destroyed by the changing course of the river indus ,and consequent flooding of the cities.

after this ,the advanced culture of the dravidians has lapsed into backwardness ,and many of the cities had been abandoned.

migrating aryans found the dravidians in a state of semi-primitiveness ,with their advanced culture all gone ,when they came.....

of course ,they never found mohenjo daro and harappa......these cites had been buried long ago ,before they came ,and were discovered only in the twentieth century.


Aryans are known for chariot based fighting as noted in zend avesta, but to cross Hindu Kush mountains chariots are obsolete thing plus horse bones found inside Harappa sites and the idols of chariot again confirms to a degree that probably the residents of Harappa and Aryans were same thing.

chariots were used in war ,not migration........obviously the crossing from central asia was done on horses only........probably the aryans came into contact with the concept of chariots only in the lands they settled in.


Finally is there any genetic similarity between Indians and Germans or Europeans?

i have heard of research on this ,but i cant recollect.


I will produce more proofs on it once I reach India on this; I have whole research paper on it.


jeetIAF

.....................................

[tantric_yogi]

I know Mesopotamia near Basra in Iraq, Iraq and Iran border each other just like India and Pakistan

Zoroastrian also mention god named varuna, mitra and indra, there is an inscription found in Assyria in Iran.

If Aryans mixed with Dravidians in Baluchistan and north India not in south India, so again why all of north Indians are as bright as baluchis.

There are only three races, mongoloid, negroid and Caucasian, if Aryan are Caucasian then to which racial stock do Dravidian belong?

And why not even single Hindu text refers to places similar to Moscow, volvograd etc etc in any of the stories

Why goddess mata rani durgaji is described with black eyes in Vedas? Why not blue eyes?

Are Rama, Krishna, and Shiva actually Dravidian deities not Aryan as they are dark skinned?

Mythological animal is bull(nandi), vulture (jatayu), bear (jamwant), monkey (hanumanji), why not the creatures like white bears, or mountain fox that are found in Russia.

Finally in present stock of population, who can be categorized as Aryans?

PS: rig veda was assigned age between 1500 BC to 2000 BC by max muller, it confirms 52 genealogy of kings spanning 6032 years.

Upinder singh, DU historian was my didi’s guide while she was in ph.d, according to her, bishop usher calculated the earth was created on 23 october 4004 BCE, so max muller has to fix all history with in the span of 6000 years. Great flood and noah of ark occurred around 2500 BCE, Harappa civilization existed around 3500 BCE, and it didn’t get destroyed in flood.

jeetIAF

Sir, I respectfully suggest ... take this post and start a thread. Brilliant. You are brilliant. I haven't known another member who possessed as much knowledge as you and there have been few who came close. You seem to have a pulse on many things not necessarily India.

+reps coming your way, sir.

Please start a thread. Thanks.

[jeetiaf]

There is more similarity between German language and Sanskrit than dissimilarities, I read in a magazine.

:up: Jeetsinghji, considering your age, you are a knowledgeable person.
Badriji, you read right thing actually, not only german even English. Both Hindi and English have parallel grammar.
For instance, figure of speech is same in both language, noun, pronoun, adjective, verb becomes sangya, sarvnam, visheshan, kriya etc etc
Even transitive verb and intransitive verb becomes akarmak kriya and sakrmak kriya
Common noun, proper noun becomes jaativachak sangya and vyaktivachak sangya

If your children are studying in St.Michaels or Notre dome in Patna, you can anytime teach them hindi grammer through English anytime.

But we can conjecture anything, may be germans learned from Sanskrit rather than other way round

jeetIAF

[jeetiaf]

.....................................
Rig veda is not mythology in strict sense, it is social code of conduct though it is filled with religious hyperbole but it also gives view about the lives of ancient Indian population, like old testament records life of early Jews and also Christians, Moses and Aaron brought out children of Israel from Egypt, king was called pharaoh and their remains are found in valley of kings , then forty years in wilderness before settling near Jerusalem, land that god promised to children of Israel, all these events record real immigration showing divine forces at work, Rig veda describes all forces of god at work but do not record immigration but records people moving west from saptsindhu.

In Rig Veda, there is no mention of Aryans coming into this region, rather suggest very long presence of Aryans in saptsindhu, Indus water system, and names of rivers mentioned is from east to west as of people settled and taking east as reference point, not from west to east as it should have been if Aryans really migrated.
Iranians records there migration in zend avesta very easily from the region hapthendu, considering that only saptasindhu was in India, so does Jews as mentioned in genesis.

Dasyus or Dravidians are remembered as son of Vishwamitra, Kshtritya turned Brahmin, who expelled his fifty sons’ west ward from east. Another text refers, Indra helping Sudas and defeated Aryan tribes and then scattered Aryan tribe towards west. Agni assailed repeatedly dasyus from west to east, it doesent mention south anywhere, in short it mentions migration of Aryans and dasyus from east to west.

Chariot was used both in war and as well as for traveling, kings used to go to countryside for visits in chariot only. Sun is explained in Rig Veda, moving in chariot with seven horses.

Indus valley civilization was there in Ropad(Punjab) and Lothal too, both the place are still hospitable, still fertile to live in, even people live near these places now.

Residents of Indus valley had very fine civic sense and same civic sense is again mentioned in Aadi kaand of Ramayan when Ayodhya is explained its description is very much similar to mohenjodaro site.

Refer this for genetics, I partially understood it, but check this one, you will understand it better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

jeetIAF

[raniraja]

WE ALSO HATE GERMANS !!

AGAR HITLER KI GAAND ME DUM HAI TO BOLO USKO CHULBUL SE DO DO HAATH KAR LE :d

[ashdoc]

Rig veda is not mythology in strict sense, it is social code of conduct though it is filled with religious hyperbole but it also gives view about the lives of ancient Indian population, like old testament records life of early Jews and also Christians, Moses and Aaron brought out children of Israel from Egypt, king was called pharaoh and their remains are found in valley of kings , then forty years in wilderness before settling near Jerusalem, land that god promised to children of Israel, all these events record real immigration showing divine forces at work, Rig veda describes all forces of god at work but do not record immigration but records people moving west from saptsindhu.

In Rig Veda, there is no mention of Aryans coming into this region, rather suggest very long presence of Aryans in saptsindhu, Indus water system, and names of rivers mentioned is from east to west as of people settled and taking east as reference point, not from west to east as it should have been if Aryans really migrated.
Iranians records there migration in zend avesta very easily from the region hapthendu, considering that only saptasindhu was in India, so does Jews as mentioned in genesis.

Dasyus or Dravidians are remembered as son of Vishwamitra, Kshtritya turned Brahmin, who expelled his fifty sons’ west ward from east. Another text refers, Indra helping Sudas and defeated Aryan tribes and then scattered Aryan tribe towards west. Agni assailed repeatedly dasyus from west to east, it doesent mention south anywhere, in short it mentions migration of Aryans and dasyus from east to west.

Chariot was used both in war and as well as for traveling, kings used to go to countryside for visits in chariot only. Sun is explained in Rig Veda, moving in chariot with seven horses.

Indus valley civilization was there in Ropad(Punjab) and Lothal too, both the place are still hospitable, still fertile to live in, even people live near these places now.

Residents of Indus valley had very fine civic sense and same civic sense is again mentioned in Aadi kaand of Ramayan when Ayodhya is explained its description is very much similar to mohenjodaro site.

Refer this for genetics, I partially understood it, but check this one, you will understand it better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

jeetIAF

rig veda was composed in punjab ,and the climate described in it is of punjab which shows that the aryans knew only punjab at that time.

it shows that aryans didnt know any other part of the country at that time.

obviously they had not seen it.

punjab has traditionally been the point from which foreigners entered the country ,not vice versa.

people have enterred from punjab and then migrated east.......all conquerors from the huns to mohammmad ghauri to babar did so.

all books i read have accepted that aryans migrated east from punjab.

from all this it is easy to surmise that aryans entered india went into punjab ,composede rig veda there ,and then migrated to the east ,called it aryavarta.

their fair skinned gods like indra ,varuna and agni were reduced in importance ,and dark skinned gods like shankar and vishnu became inportant ,as they began mingling among dravidians.

india has a way of making people forget their history like iran doesn't:)

our hindus too did not record their history ,which is why upto the muslim invasion, indian history is only vaguely known.

not really much is known about skandagupta ,who drove out the huns from the country......actually he was a great king ,one of the few who successfully repelled a foreign invasion.........such is the state of our history writing....

under these circunstances ,it is not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that the aryans had forgotten the south russian home of ther ancestor ( which they had never seen anyway ) when rig veda was composed.

[badriprasad]

Dear Charchans,

I lived in Germany for 7 years, though not in one stretch but the period stretched in four decades 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and therefore, I feel, I have the advantage of judging the Germans better. All these years I have worked in multinational German companies like AEG, Siemens and Pferd Rueggeberg.

In all these years I was never given even the feeling of inferiority by my colleagues or superiors.
I arrived in Germany when I was just 22 years (1961) and had never travelled outside my state in India. The initial fear of being alone in a strenge country melted within a few days because I got integrated in the society. Obviously I had to strive to assimilate with the German way of life and that is pretty obvious. The English say "be a Roman when in Rome". I have half a dozen friends from 60s. I can go to stay in their family without any invitation even today.

In 71 when my services were transferred to Germany I was married and wanted to bring my wife to Germany too. Therefore, I needed an apartment. To find an apartment in big city like W.Berlin was difficult even to a single German but my friend got me one. 1 bedroom, hall kitchen, balcony looking out to Berrnauer Strasse wall and a toilet block. Apartment in a brand new Housing Society that too fully furnished for only DM 175/- (warm). The Society Officials were apprehensive about this and told my friend that after six months they will make inquiries with my neighbours and if all are comfortable with us then only I would get to continue to stay there. My friend who organised the apartment never even mentioned this to me i.e. about this apprehension. My wife arrived just before Christmas. She could not speak even one word of German. Everything was hunkydorry because I had holidays and we were invited in different families almost every day during those holidays. The problem would have started only when I started attending my work from 0700 to 1700 hours everyday after the holidays. We had two neighbours on the same floor. One was a very young family with a small daughter and in the other lived two widowed middle aged sisters. It was my first day to work after christmas holidays and when I came back from work I found my apartment locked. I was worried about my wife. As I was opening my apartment, the neighbours door got opened and the lady addressed to me. Your wife is with us, please come in. My wife had very easily broken the ice or else she would have gone crazy sitting at home when the outside atmosphere was also always gloomy and cold. My wife was adopted by the two sisters and they were called Mutty(the elder one) and Mavshee (the younger one). The friendship grew by every day and when we decided to come back to India after about two years it became difficult to say good bye to those old beauties. They wept as if their own children were departing for ever.
After six months when Housing Society bosses made the inquiry there was a unanimous statement by one and all that the Indians must stay as long as they want.

In all 40 years of my association with Germans I was not discriminated even once. I know many of my Indian colleagues who were veggies had problems in Germany. These days almost all well educated Germans understand and speak English. I lived in Germany when almost nobody understood English.

Based on my experience of so many years I can vouch that Germans are exceedingly humane folk and almost everybody repent for what happened in Germany in 1930s. You will find dirty people with dirty mentality in all Societies and Germans can not be exception to that. But all Germans can and should not be labled as Nazis thbis will be a vety very gross and sad statement.

Thanks. + rep you.

[jeetiaf]

rig veda was composed in punjab ,and the climate described in it is of punjab which shows that the aryans knew only punjab at that time.

it shows that aryans didnt know any other part of the country at that time.

obviously they had not seen it.

punjab has traditionally been the point from which foreigners entered the country ,not vice versa.

people have enterred from punjab and then migrated east.......all conquerors from the huns to mohammmad ghauri to babar did so.

all books i read have accepted that aryans migrated east from punjab.

from all this it is easy to surmise that aryans entered india went into punjab ,composede rig veda there ,and then migrated to the east ,called it aryavarta.

their fair skinned gods like indra ,varuna and agni were reduced in importance ,and dark skinned gods like shankar and vishnu became inportant ,as they began mingling among dravidians.

india has a way of making people forget their history like iran doesn't:)

our hindus too did not record their history ,which is why upto the muslim invasion, indian history is only vaguely known.

not really much is known about skandagupta ,who drove out the huns from the country......actually he was a great king ,one of the few who successfully repelled a foreign invasion.........such is the state of our history writing....

under these circunstances ,it is not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that the aryans had forgotten the south russian home of ther ancestor ( which they had never seen anyway ) when rig veda was composed.
I already gave you genetic proof; please make a comment or two on it

Further is the excerpts copy/paste from my didi's research paper.

The Aryan invasion theory puts the invasion of Aryans between 1900 BCE to 1400 BCE

Writes j.m. koyenor, specialist in archeology of Indus valley,” there is no archeological and biological evidence of mass migration or invasion between the end of harappan phase in 1900 BC and early historic period around 600 BC, as no traces of war damaged skeleton, horses and various other weapons of war are not found anywhere near any of sites. Source: early historic period of India by J M Koyenor, 1998 pg 178

Proto rg vedic Aryan maigration in valley by 1800 BC is not supported by our data. Gene flow from Bactria does not affect north western region until the dawn of Christian era. Due to invasion of Shakas and Kushanas Source: hemphill and Christensen 1994.

Any big scale migration must have triggered war, but archeologically and genetically this can not be proved, considering Aryans migrated in small group and infiltrated in local region, they should have retained their culture, values and tradition but they cant rename rivers mountain and hills, and also have learnt local language, for example Greeks retained their religion and name of their places under 400 years of ottoman rule.
In this region of seven rivers, then, we have archeologically well attested people with no literature at all just few inscription, no code of law, no religious hymns and immediately, a group of illiterate people, not archeologically attested, produce all kind of literature just mentioning that region of saptsindhu(first noticed by D frawley) an astonishing coincidence space, time and people

BN Narhari Achar(Memphis, USA) has developed a software which can actually show the picture of stars formation at any given location at any given time as back as 8000 BCE.

In mahabharat, Krishna leaves for hastinapur on the night of Revathi Nakshatra, in the month of kaumuda(= kartika ie oct-nov) and arrives on the day of bharani; on the day of pusya, Dhuryodhana rejects offer of reconciliation, Krishna departs on day of Uttar Phalguni and tells Karna that amavasya will come seven day later, karma then cites some planets position, all this data of astronomy leads us to 3067 BCE. The ancient Indian tradition of Puranas and astronomers are fairly correct in placing onset of Kali Yuga at 3102 BCE and Mahabharata war 35 years before that, the disparity is only 70 years.

So if Aryans invaded or migrated in the year between given dates how can they write mahabharat around 3067 BCE, at that time harrapan were there and that is already attested by finding.

Few more proofs will be added tomorrow

jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

Any big scale migration must have triggered war,

the aryan invasion is now thought to be peaceful, though admittedly earlier histories thought it to be violent.

in the latest authoritative history of india ( INDIA, A HISTORY ) john keay clearly states that aryans peacefully assimilated into the dravidians ,who had lapsed back into primitiveness after mohenjo-daro and harrappa were destroyed in floods and changing of course of river indus.

In this region of seven rivers, then, we have archeologically well attested people with no literature at all just few inscription, no code of law, no religious hymns and immediately, a group of illiterate people, not archeologically attested, produce all kind of literature just mentioning that region of saptsindhu(first noticed by D frawley) an astonishing coincidence space, time and people

thats why people are so proud to be aryans.......the aryans were a astonishingly civilized people who brought civilization to many parts of the world:).......they were not illiterate all all.......but with a well developed script...



So if Aryans invaded or migrated in the year between given dates how can they write mahabharat around 3067 BCE, at that time harrapan were there and that is already attested by finding.

the date you have given is too far back ,and mahabharat was written about 1000 bc ...actually before it.......it was supposed to have happened in 3067 BC , but written at a later date........but all this stuff is mythology , so who cares.......i dont believe it happened anyway.....


Few more proofs will be added tomorrow

jeetIAF

...................

[jeetiaf]

...................

Any big scale migration even in any time in past was always accompanied with war, be it Ottoman invading Greece or Muslims invading India.

It is wrong to say Aryans were literate and cultured before invading India as there is no such proof available, I mean no pre invasion record is available, only post invasion record is available, that means they learned writing and culture in Saptasindhu, even if Aryan invasion theory is agreed upon

Correct date of Aryan migration is between 1900 BCE to 1400 BCE, historically confirmed,
Aryans invaded in this time frame only, Aryans were illiterate for sure, otherwise they would have kept record of their migration just like any other civilization, either by cramming or by writing but these things cannot be archeologically attested even through archeogenetics, I will come to genetics later, age of Rig-Veda is 1700 BCE to 1100 BCE, now it appears suddenly people come from some part of world who do not have tradition of writing or cramming suddenly produce wonderful literature on various subject, first paradox

I am not implying that Mahabharata is a reality, let me consider it mythology just like you, considering Maharishi Ved Vyas writing Mahabharata in 1000 BCE and mentioning position and planet and stars of 3067 BCE over northern India, how this is possible?
That means initially people crammed Mahabharata and then wrote it in 1000 BCE, but people crammed it in 3067 BCE then how can they invade in period of invasion, second paradox

Genetics for people here to understand, because I don’t

Geneticist S Oppenheimer confirms there is no Aryan entry, either male or female, he focuses on M17, or so called Caucasoid (=Aryan!) he stated “South Asia is ultimate source of M17 and his ancestors, and sure enough we find highest density of M17 lines in Pakistan, India and eastern Iran and density reduces as we move westward. He adds that M17 traveled from north western India to Kashmir, Central Asia and finally Europe confirming migration took place from west to east.

Archeologist Witzel confirms, “so far no archeological and paleontological assessment, based on multi variate analysis of skeletal feature has not found any immigration after 4500 BCE and up to 800 BCE.

The harrapans had script(still not deciphered) and civilization of 1000 years old and had wonderful trade relation with Sumerians, they could manufacture boats and chariots as confirmed by seals found in Harappan locations, had perhaps a religion then due to shift of tectonic plates, river started changing it course, Harappan abandoned there sites and moved in towards plains, then entered illiterate Aryan (as they don’t have any record of pre-migration literature) and completely succeed in aryanization of northern India but apart from few vague conjectures no invasionist theorist gives an explanation how such a mega event occurred in such a vast area, through war or through peaceful means. In complete history of mankind, there is never a situation where illiterate immigrants migrated and toppled the civilized culture and imposed their culture, if blending is considered then again literate must have dominated, the most praised river is Saraswati in rig veda and later everything transferred to Ganga once they started settling near ganga but if we consider continuity of culture from Harappan phase to phase of cramming and writing, or transfer of people from North western region to gangatic plains everything falls in place.

Considering peaceful migration of Aryans and blending with Harapans through peaceful means, Rig Veda which was definitely written in north western part of India, should have mentioned some harrapan elements such as brick manufacturing, fixed fire hearths, cotton silver etc but it fails to do so but later Vedic texts such as Brahmanas, Mahabharata and Ramayana easily record these things,this means Rig Veda was existing before though memory transferred from one generation to another before being penned down, so it again places Aryan invasion in doubt, but if we consider continuity of culture again everything falls in place.

Why moving harrapns towards gangetic plains should adopt culture of invading Aryans and give up there culture and accept renaming the place, renaming of places generally takes place after subduing both culturally and militarily which again is impossible according to research findings.

One could easily suppose model of cultural invasion through technology with ideology (read religion), as English spread in modern world, it would not be very accurate because a) English was taken to north America, south America, Australia and new Zealand by various immigrants whereas in other countries it is only the second language was French and German in 1940’s b) today we have very fast transport and satellite communication, again, in case of Aryan invasion, both condition do not apply, culturally inferior Aryans cant do this even and superimpose their culture it negates possibility of immigration but keeps possibility of invasion, invasion again cannot be attested though enough earth digging and book reading is done.

Finally a parallel situation
Many Greeks converted to Islam through coercion or choice, but while many other learned Turkish and served advisory to sultans and even governor in many district such as Rumania and Serbia, they never abandoned their Greek or their orthodox faith, Jews in Diaspora did same thing

Archeological excavation has failed to find anything substantial.

Genetics only confirms reverse migration, but no Aryan invasion.

Medical science does not succeed in finding anything in skeletal remains about immigration at that time.

Linguistic data is quite insufficient and anything can be conjectured through it.

Cultural invasion seems improbable as Harappan were literate and educated.


jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

Any big scale migration even in any time in past was always accompanied with war, be it Ottoman invading Greece or Muslims invading India.

yes , but both ottomans and muslim invaders of india encountered advanced civilizations .......the aryans did not .....

modern historians have found that the mohenjodaro and harappa culture had died down due to changing of course of river indus ,drying of saraswati and floods and other reasons and the aryans encountered primitive people.

It is wrong to say Aryans were literate and cultured before invading India as there is no such proof available, I mean no pre invasion record is available, only post invasion record is available, that means they learned writing and culture in Saptasindhu, even if Aryan invasion theory is agreed upon



Correct date of Aryan migration is between 1900 BCE to 1400 BCE, historically confirmed,
Aryans invaded in this time frame only, Aryans were illiterate for sure, otherwise they would have kept record of their migration just like any other civilization, either by cramming or by writing but these things cannot be archeologically attested even through archeogenetics, I will come to genetics later, age of Rig-Veda is 1700 BCE to 1100 BCE, now it appears suddenly people come from some part of world who do not have tradition of writing or cramming suddenly produce wonderful literature on various subject, first paradox

as i said india has a way of making people forget about other regions.......hindus have rarely recorded their past.....

rig veda has survived because it is a religious work.

even at a much later date ,it is very difficult to find out about hindu history ,as no records are available.

are we to surmise that even at this date the hindus were illiterate......as i said ,nothing is known about skandagupta.

obviously ,non-religious records of earlier migrations were lost ,and only when religious records were maintained ,they survived because of the all-important influence of religion on peoples minds:):)


I am not implying that Mahabharata is a reality, let me consider it mythology just like you, considering Maharishi Ved Vyas writing Mahabharata in 1000 BCE and mentioning position and planet and stars of 3067 BCE over northern India, how this is possible?
That means initially people crammed Mahabharata and then wrote it in 1000 BCE, but people crammed it in 3067 BCE then how can they invade in period of invasion, second paradox

mahabharat is the culmination of an oral tradition started in 3067 bc ........it was based on the dim memory of some local war fought between princes.

historian vincent smith ( oxford history of india )calls it war between ' tribes ',but we can put this as an englishmans condescending attitude towards indians :):)

as time went on ,the oral tradition ,as elucidated by bards and poets ,became more and more colourful , and great and almost magical powers were attributed to the ' heroes ' of what had now become an epic ,and the story became longer and longer with people adding to it from their own fertile imaginations.........:)

around 1000 bc ,the time had come to put down this story in writing , as it was too long and tedious to tell in a single session .....

besides it had aqcuired a religious significance beyond just a story.......it was indeed the bedrock of hindu civilization......:)


Genetics for people here to understand, because I don’t

Geneticist S Oppenheimer confirms there is no Aryan entry, either male or female, he focuses on M17, or so called Caucasoid (=Aryan!) he stated “South Asia is ultimate source of M17 and his ancestors, and sure enough we find highest density of M17 lines in Pakistan, India and eastern Iran and density reduces as we move westward. He adds that M17 traveled from north western India to Kashmir, Central Asia and finally Europe confirming migration took place from west to east.

Archeologist Witzel confirms, “so far no archeological and paleontological assessment, based on multi variate analysis of skeletal feature has not found any immigration after 4500 BCE and up to 800 BCE.

here you are going against the accepted version which is standard throughout the world ,about aryans being ' outsiders '......very few except the hindutvavadis question it......:)


In complete history of mankind, there is never a situation where illiterate immigrants migrated and toppled the civilized culture and imposed their culture

you say that the harappans were civilized....

but how much was the area ' civilized ' by them .....only the indus valley and surrounding areas......

was the vast mass of india , like bengal , bihar , tamil nadu , kerala , orissa , assam ,maharashtra ,karnatak , andhra pradesh ,madhya pradesh ,chhatis garh civilised...

no............

when you talk about the dravidians being an advanced civilization ,you are talking about only and only the indus valley........

this civilization was toppled by floods long before the aryans came .......

.......and the in the remaining part of india , dravidians has always been primitive.....

so ,even in the indus valley ,but especially in the vast mass of india ,beyond the indus vally ,the aryans encountered a primitive folk....



if blending is considered then again literate must have dominated, the most praised river is Saraswati in rig veda and later everything transferred to Ganga once they started settling near ganga but if we consider continuity of culture from Harappan phase to phase of cramming and writing, or transfer of people from North western region to gangatic plains everything falls in place.

Considering peaceful migration of Aryans and blending with Harapans through peaceful means, Rig Veda which was definitely written in north western part of India, should have mentioned some harrapan elements such as brick manufacturing, fixed fire hearths, cotton silver etc but it fails to do so but later Vedic texts such as Brahmanas, Mahabharata and Ramayana easily record these things,this means Rig Veda was existing before though memory transferred from one generation to another before being penned down, so it again places Aryan invasion in doubt, but if we consider continuity of culture again everything falls in place.

as i said ,the harappan civilization was already gone when aryans appeared ,and the harappan elements you are talking about were discoverd only when the sites of mohenjo daro and harappa were discovered in 1922:)


Why moving harrapns towards gangetic plains should adopt culture of invading Aryans and give up there culture and accept renaming the place, renaming of places generally takes place after subduing both culturally and militarily which again is impossible according to research findings.

because the harappans has lapsed into primitiveness ,and aryan culture was superior:)


One could easily suppose model of cultural invasion through technology with ideology (read religion), as English spread in modern world, it would not be very accurate because a) English was taken to north America, south America, Australia and new Zealand by various immigrants whereas in other countries it is only the second language was French and German in 1940’s b) today we have very fast transport and satellite communication, again, in case of Aryan invasion, both condition do not apply, culturally inferior Aryans cant do this even and superimpose their culture it negates possibility of immigration but keeps possibility of invasion, invasion again cannot be attested though enough earth digging and book reading is done.
[
COLOR="Red"]as i said ,the mass of india was inferior to aryan culture ,it never had even seen civilization in the past ........and indus valley civilization was long gone......[/COLOR]


Finally a parallel situation
Many Greeks converted to Islam through coercion or choice, but while many other learned Turkish and served advisory to sultans and even governor in many district such as Rumania and Serbia, they never abandoned their Greek or their orthodox faith, Jews in Diaspora did same thing

you are simply wrong here....

the area known as turkey was actually a complete greek area called byzantine empire...

.....today it is 98 percent muslim and turkish.......

read about the battle of manzikert and the conquest and utter annihilation of greeks in turkey





jeetIAF

.......................................................

[jeetiaf]

Whatever you have written here is very logical and that is what was believed, again I am saying people who were on move cannot produce such literature because they can never have institution to conduct.

There is no proof that natives went back to primitiveness, this is purely vague assumption.

I will agree to Aryan invasion theory, just provide any archeological, genetic, medical, archeogenetics data or link to it.
Honestly, I do not have any idea of what Hindu fundamentalist say about it, I am relying on data produced by DU historian Upinder singh, and she is a Sikh.

The harappan civilization was 1.5 million square kilometer actually, sites are found till Gujarat, Harappan rice is found even in Bihar.

There is no proof of flood, shift of tectonic plates made area dry; north western part receives maximum temperature and minimum temperature in whole sub continent.

Okay, mahabharat was battle between some tribals, do you think a tribal civilization can have understanding of planetary motion, it is possible only if it is as developed as Inca or Aztec or writer was so smart that he could have projected planets position existing before two millennia, at the first place you say it is mythology now it is tribal war, this is again contradictory,

Aryans do not produce any such literature before coming and suddenly they reach saptasindhu and develop script and write literature and remember Mahabharat was written in sapthsindhu, how can writer mention places of anga(eastern UP), vidharbha(Maharashtra) but no place after Gandhar but every other civilization recorded there migration but developed Aryans failed to do so.

Finally I gave you proof on the basis of various thing, now it is your turn, any archeological, genetic, medical, literary proof will suffice.

What I am implying, there was no invasion as there is no proof to corroborate it, it was those harrapans who developed everything, and Aryans and harappans are samething. And migration occurred but from East to west as this can be proved through iterature and archeogenetics.

But if there is any concrete proof besides your logical reasoning, put it here.

jeetIAF

[jeetiaf]

Whatever you have written here is very logical and that is what was believed, again I am saying people who were on move cannot produce such literature because they can never have institution to conduct.

There is no proof that natives went back to primitiveness, this is purely vague assumption.

I will agree to Aryan invasion theory, just provide any archeological, genetic, medical, archeogenetics data or link to it.
Honestly, I do not have any idea of what Hindu fundamentalist say about it, I am relying on data produced by DU historian Upinder singh, and she is a Sikh.

The harappan civilization was 1.5 million square kilometer actually, sites are found till Gujarat, Harappan rice is found even in Bihar.

There is no proof of flood, shift of tectonic plates made area dry; north western part receives maximum temperature and minimum temperature in whole sub continent.

Okay, mahabharat was battle between some tribals, do you think a tribal civilization can have understanding of planetary motion, it is possible only if it is as developed as Inca or Aztec or writer was so smart that he could have projected planets position existing before two millennia, at the first place you say it is mythology now it is tribal war, this is again contradictory,

Aryans do not produce any such literature before coming and suddenly they reach saptasindhu and develop script and write literature and remember Mahabharat was written in sapthsindhu, how can writer mention places of anga(eastern UP), vidharbha(Maharashtra) but no place after Gandhar but every other civilization recorded there migration but developed Aryans failed to do so.

Finally I gave you proof on the basis of various thing, now it is your turn, any archeological, genetic, medical, literary proof will suffice.

What I am implying, there was no invasion as there is no proof to corroborate it, it was those harrapans who developed everything, and Aryans and harappans are samething. And migration occurred but from East to west as this can be proved through iterature and archeogenetics.

But if there is any concrete proof besides your logical reasoning, put it here.

jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

There is no proof that natives went back to primitiveness, this is purely vague assumption.

certainly they went back to primitiveness.......there is no proof of any civilized activity after the cities of mohenjo-daro and harappa were abandoned ,so that surmise is correct.




Okay, mahabharat was battle between some tribals, do you think a tribal civilization can have understanding of planetary motion, it is possible only if it is as developed as Inca or Aztec or writer was so smart that he could have projected planets position existing before two millennia, at the first place you say it is mythology now it is tribal war, this is again contradictory,

Read what I wrote properly.......... i said that historian vincent smith says that the war was between tribals ......but i have added that we can assume that it was due to his condescending attitude towards indians.......

certainly , in my opinion ,the princes were more civilized than tribals.

of course ,the story is all mythology ,as the original story is lost in legends created around it at a later date ,and the near-magical powers attributed to the characters in the epic.


Finally I gave you proof on the basis of various thing, now it is your turn, any archeological, genetic, medical, literary proof will suffice.

What I am implying, there was no invasion as there is no proof to corroborate it, it was those harrapans who developed everything, and Aryans and harappans are samething. And migration occurred but from East to west as this can be proved through iterature and archeogenetics.

But if there is any concrete proof besides your logical reasoning, put it here.

jeetIAF

i have read history books ,and all of them confirm that aryans were indeed foreigners.

i can give one more logical reason ......since it is quite clear that there is similarity between the language and gods of india and iran ,there must be connection between aryans of india and iran ....... but indians have traditionally never migrated outside.......

why would anybody travel outside india's land of plenty to settle in the harsh climate of iran ???:doh:

traditionally india has attracted outsiders who have come in hordes , but rarely ,or never has anyone gone out........

i haven'y bothered to study all the other proofs you want ,but respected historians all agree that the aryans are outsiders ,and you are going against mainstream accepted theories.


...............

[jeetiaf]

...............

Rig veda adores river Saraswati in highest tones and compares it as a very magnificent chariot, it has not only having religious implication but also celestial implication just as river Nile was for Egyptian.

G. Possehl examined all the paleoenvironmental and geological data relevant to Saraswati. River could have flowed down the ocean but only before 3200 BCE at the latest. This again ascertains the age of oral Rigveda to the age before 3200 BCE and written Rig-Veda comes only in between 1700 BCE to 1100 BCE.

Rigveda fails to mention about brick hearhs/altars, cotton and rice, both of which were in cultivation before Rigveda oral formation but post Rig vedic text such as Brahmanas records all these thing very accurately probably they came to existence at the time of Harappa or post Harappa.

Then there is list of kings providing history of 6000+ years not only mentioned in puranas but also by Greeks like Arrian, Pliny and Solinus. Arrian is historian, Pliny is observant naturalist, and all of them concur on year 6000+, probably they referred some same source.

Leaving aside list of kings, we come to teacher vamsa, though list is bit weak and traces itself to lord Prajapati and Brahama, and we have no dates given so let’s start with Aryan entry.

Aryan entry the earlier rhymes were dated 1200 BCE and and later rhymes around 1000 BCE or even 900 BCE, Atharveda around 1100 BCE-900 BCE, and other Samhitas down to 800 BCE, Brahmanas come shortly after around 800-600 BCE including Upanishads like Bhadranayaka, then come Sutras after 600 BCE
Now Bhadranayaka Upinishad is not a unitary work but a collection of three different works, since adhyayas 2,4, and 6 has list of teachers in the end, totally 65 of them and containing name of teacher as Brahma and Prajapati, so number of teacher should be considered to be 60, to avoid god and other intruder, so total teacher comes out to be 60 multiplied by 20 for their service comes out to be 1200 years atleast, upnishads are teaching of teachers teaching so it can not be mistrusted on any ground and cannot be called as baseless mythology

So average age of Upanishad almost goes to 2000 BCE-1800 BCE, Rigveda does not mention anything about Upanishad teaching even the late teachings of Rigveda fails to do so. That means Rigveda came to existence before 2000 BCE-1800 BCE.

In Pakistani national paper, DAWN, a report published by Mahmud Zaman:-
Taxila 600 years older than believed, recent excavation has pushed back the history of settlement for atleast another 6 centuries to Neolithic age, earlier, artifacts collected by Sir John Marshall has dated Taxila back to 518 BCE, the new studies reveal the existence of city between 1200 BCE and 1100 BCE, potsherds and other terracotta , found at the lowest occupational level, 15 feet in depth, is the main evidence of latest discovery which establishes that Taxila and Indus valley civilization existed in the valley at the same time, sir john who worked between 1914 AD to 1934 AD, had found four occupational structure but latest study has unearthed Six occupational structures but according to Aryan invasion theory this was the time Aryans were invading and were creating later hymns of Rigveda and knows nothing about urban structure and ruined towns. So rig veda was created before Taxila but if it was created before Taxila then again it fails to record migration, but if Brahmanas are considered it clearly know about it, this pushes age of brahmanas to again bit further to 1200 BCE-1100 BCE consequently Rigveda to 1600 BCE- 1500 BCE well beyond time of invasion around 1500 BCE,

In final conclusion, there is no clear indication of Aryan entry around 1500 BCE (+-500) or a satisfactory explanation of Aryanization of northern India, the physical distributions of sites and artifacts, stratigraphic data, radiometric dates, genetics and alike do not support possible Aryan entry, archeoastonomic source confirms many texts must have been written well before 1500 BCE and Rig veda must have been composed before Indus Valley Civilization since it knows nothing of it. Either the invasion took place in 4500 BCE or whole story is development of indigenous people called Harrapan or Aryans

Helio centric concept held it sway it centuries together Aryan invasion is another such classic example

BOOKS THAT I REFERRED:

Aggarwal d p: history of indo- Aryans
Kazanan n: history of rig veda and indo- European
The Aryan invasion theory and scholarship
Keyoner J M: the Indus valley culture of Karachi

Upinder singh: Aryan invasion: myth behind reality

Ashdoc yaar, at least recommend few books for me to study as well that claims Aryan invasion beside CBSE textbooks. I will be grateful to you

jeetIAF

[ashdoc]

OXFORD HISTORY OF INDIA--by vincent smith

INDIA ,A HISTORY --by john keay

Cambridge history of india --older , not new history , since there is new cambridge history too....i haven't read new one.

ANCIENT INDIA--by v.d. mahajan

[ashdoc]

inspite of winning the crown this thread is in international politics section . :rolleyes:

nor has the crown for this thread been updated in my list .:rolleyes:

[shruthi_ks]

What must be music to the ears of die-hard Germany supporters is the fact that Germany is the world's most favourably viewed nation ,with 59 percent people across the globe viewing it favourably :)

But here comes the dampner--Germans hate India almost as much as the pukis and chinks :(:D

Now what could be the reason for this dislike ??:dontknow::confused:

Calling upon the Germany experts on the forum to discuss it...........;)

Of course ,China's and pakistan's hatred is well known......in fact I would be surprised to hear if they said anything positive :smartass:

Abey doctor!!!

Ratta maar ke MBBS kiya kya? Your naivete would have been excusable if you were unacquainted with international politics. But by your own admission you are a military and history observer since 2-3 years. By now you should have known that these surveys are fake and are nothing but instruments of propaganada.