Iraq War on Terrorism: Who won?

[amritvani]

The Iraq was is finally over for US so the question is were there any winners of the war.

Iraq is left in anarchy and probably think the dictatorship days were better, so it is not the winner.

US itself not a winner at all; having spent more than 750 billion and now turning attention to forgotten war, it is probably hoping that the iraq war were forgotten instead as well as any references to Abu Gharib and illegal torture and detentions at Gitmo. World does not associate morality with US anymore.

As far as US allies, they don't really care unless they were active participants and lost lives. Also they have dumped their leaders who legitimized the fake war and war propoganda like Tony Blair [and Colin Powell in the US]

The war did not teach any lessons to rogue nations led by dictators. They wouldn't feel afraid by turn of events in the Iraq war. However the Iran and North Korea probably win somewhat now that US-and-its-cronies-and-their-war-on-terrorism are deemed eviler than the axis of evil.

George Bush is perhaps the winner since he was able to get the shock and awe and live camera warfare that he always wanted; smart enough to understand that the US citizens fall in line and reelect their leader no matter what, so he could peacefully get away with WMD story and democratization of ismalic world bull.

And of course the Haliburton and other defense contractors are always winners in any war.

Al Qaeda won because it wasn't in Iraq before but now captured this new territory; may be they will revive the Bath party network.

Obama was not a participant other than ending, but the man kept his word to end the war, although I am skeptical since there still are 50K guys training the iraqis.

Who else?

Please feel free to write your thoughts.

[kkkk]

I sure do know who the loser was. Iraq and Iraqis.

I cannot be sure but I think US won big time. All the things that you have listed as having negative impacts on US are very short term - Iraq war or not, the likes of powell were always going to be forgotton in the mists of time after they lost power. Even US allies have profited - personally as well. Tony Blair's memoirs published last week are hot cakes. the only negative point I see is that US had to spent such a lot of money. That doesnt seem to bother US - I have also been told that War is always good for economy - specifically one that is not fought on own soil.

MAINLY US and allies get to control the Iraqi oil again.

[Anonymous]

has it ended really?

[kkkk]

has it ended really?

for US it has. They are no longer going to participate in combat role.

[amritvani]

I sure do know who the loser was. Iraq and Iraqis.

I cannot be sure but I think US won big time. All the things that you have listed as having negative impacts on US are very short term - Iraq war or not, the likes of powell were always going to be forgotton in the mists of time after they lost power. Even US allies have profited - personally as well. Tony Blair's memoirs published last week are hot cakes. the only negative point I see is that US had to spent such a lot of money. That doesnt seem to bother US - I have also been told that War is always good for economy - specifically one that is not fought on own soil.



If handful of men use the power of people for selfish gains, how is that different from a dictatorship or kingdom?

[kkkk]

If handful of men use the power of people for selfish gains, how is that different from a dictatorship or kingdom?

bhaut hi upppar se gaya...

[echarcha]

The war is not over as such. US will have to stay there for a very long time.

Had US not treated the war as a police raid and action then US could have won. Unfortunately the US has forgotten or unwilling to fight a war in the real sense. The 'embedded' journalists expected the war to be like a civil action where the police read rights to the arrested. The US soldiers had to be extremely politically correct with their one hand tied behind their back in Iraq.

This reminded me of our own IPKF (Indian Peace Keeping Force) which was sent to Sri Lanka. Our soldiers were sent with one hand tied behind their backs and then LTTE just killed them like sitting ducks. War was what Sri Lankan government did recently - cornered and killed every last LTTE rebel.

As long as US keeps being this 'politically correct super sensitive' machine, no war can be won.

[amritvani]

bhaut hi upppar se gaya...

KKKK pai, Tony Blair who you cite as a winner actually deceived people into believing the need for war. Ditto for George Bush. These countries are supposed to be showpieces of democracies. Isn't it ironic that even in democracy individuals could gain heavily at the expense of people? Is Democracy not a good model for nation state? Then what is?

[amritvani]

Had US not treated the war as a police raid and action then US could have won. Unfortunately the US has forgotten or unwilling to fight a war in the real sense. The 'embedded' journalists expected the war to be like a civil action where the police read rights to the arrested. The US soldiers had to be extremely politically correct with their one hand tied behind their back in Iraq.


Not surprising since it was poorly planned, and after the fall of Saddam as well it remained poorly planned.

[amritvani]

This guy says Iran won the war. "Iran has said many times … that it will fill the vacuum after the U.S. withdraws. The country has become the target of regional ambitions and interference in its affairs.” http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2010/09/03/the-u-s-war-in-iraq-is-over-who-won/

I bet 20% of americans still think the war was worth the cost... these are the same 20% that think earth is flat, sun revolves around the earth and Obama is muslim and not a US citizen. Some day one of them will become the US President with the whole nuclear arsenal at disposal.

[jeetiaf]

Only combat operations are called off. Stabilizing operations are bound to continue, US military forces are going to stay on ground to assist Iraqis to build political. Police, military structure of the country, total withdrawal will take place once US believes that Iraq has come under their influence, so in future Iraq is bound to be US satellite state.
US has military base close to Iranian borders. There are in total 94 small and large military bases in Iraq, number are troops are around 50,000, double the number of troops in South Korea plus 100,000 US contractors who are retired military commanders of US, Uganda, Peru and Columbia. The troops will march to Kuwait and neighboring country, US controls Iraq’s airspace. And will come to assist Iraq as and when called. Obama administration and already sold advanced weapon to Iraq and it is suspected they may sell F-16s to Iraq and to train personnel US will continue stay. Total US withdrawal means influence of Iran might increase as majority of Iraqis are shia and Iran is shia state.

Iran has already started nuclear facility at bushehr with the help of Russians. Iran is third largest weapon buyer after china and India, though total trade is around $5 billion. On the eastern side of Iran, US have military bases in mazar-e-sharif and hearat provinces, to counter Iranians.

In short, occupation is not over it is repackaged with attractive cover. The loser were Iraqis who lost their sovereignty and there economy is now under control of US

.jeetIAF

[amritvani]

Only combat operations are called off. Stabilizing operations are bound to continue, US military forces are going to stay on ground to assist Iraqis to build political. Police, military structure of the country, total withdrawal will take place once US believes that Iraq has come under their influence, so in future Iraq is bound to be US satellite state.
US has military base close to Iranian borders. There are in total 94 small and large military bases in Iraq, number are troops are around 50,000, double the number of troops in South Korea plus 100,000 US contractors who are retired military commanders of US, Uganda, Peru and Columbia. The troops will march to Kuwait and neighboring country, US controls Iraq’s airspace. And will come to assist Iraq as and when called. Obama administration and already sold advanced weapon to Iraq and it is suspected they may sell F-16s to Iraq and to train personnel US will continue stay. Total US withdrawal means influence of Iran might increase as majority of Iraqis are shia and Iran is shia state.

Iran has already started nuclear facility at bushehr with the help of Russians. Iran is third largest weapon buyer after china and India, though total trade is around $5 billion. On the eastern side of Iran, US have military bases in mazar-e-sharif and hearat provinces, to counter Iranians.

In short, occupation is not over it is repackaged with attractive cover. The loser were Iraqis who lost their sovereignty and there economy is now under control of US

.jeetIAF

Jeetpai, according to their timetable all troops are to return home by Dec 31st 2011. With Iran invoked trouble, there could be more american casualties and I don't think Obama or US population would again get in combat role in Iraq. The political structure in Iraq is also not going to stabilize though US will sell arms to help them restore peace. So chances are they will leave Iraq to anarchy and expedite return even earlier than 2011. US has enough bases nearby to keep Iraq in their control. May be Afghanistan or Pakistan may warrant their early withdrawal as well. I don't think the value of their sales would add up to 750 billion USD so US will continue to be a loser per your argument alongwith Iraq, and Iran gets an opportunity though not a winner yet.

[jeetiaf]

Jeetpai, according to their timetable all troops are to return home by Dec 31st 2011. With Iran invoked trouble, there could be more american casualties and I don't think Obama or US population would again get in combat role in Iraq. The political structure in Iraq is also not going to stabilize though US will sell arms to help them restore peace. So chances are they will leave Iraq to anarchy and expedite return even earlier than 2011. US has enough bases nearby to keep Iraq in their control. May be Afghanistan or Pakistan may warrant their early withdrawal as well. I don't think the value of their sales would add up to 750 billion USD so US will continue to be a loser per your argument alongwith Iraq, and Iran gets an opportunity though not a winner yet.

The Obama administration states that it will advice and assist and continue the training program and this is bound to continue beyond 2011, the troops will march out of Iraq to bordering countries like Kuwait and neighboring countries under the status of force agreement signed by US and Iraq. Selling of hi-tech machinery itself necessitates prolonged American presence in Iraq. So troops will march home and new ones will be stationed in Kuwait and other gulf countries
US has said that they will recommit troops if Iraq asks for assistence

US forces has to stay beyond 2011 to train and assist 660,000 armed personnel, police and pro government militia.

US embassy in Iraq is the biggest diplomatic establishment worth $750 million will house 800 diplomats; it is bigger in size than holy Vatican.

Economically, sixty percent of oil is now under foreign control, that too under contract for next 20 years, the western companies that were expelled during Saddam’s regime are now back in business, this is why US went into war, it is economical cow that is being milked by US now

Iraq’s military commander is shia whose ethnicity is Kurd (forgot his name). Kurds have government in northern Iraq as quasi independent state they fear that Arabs nationals who have strong presence in kikuk and mosul will resist the occupation in western Iraq.

Al-Quaida is making return, in july the bombed in heart of Baghdad and killed 16 people and briefly planting their flag

Al-quida took responsibility of blowing office of Al-Arabiya channel killing six people.

Finally $750 billion, not every strategic value has monetary equivalent, look Siachen, India captured this glacier after successful completion of operation Meghdoot in 1980, it has no economical value, it drains resources but it has high strategic value, a single stone thrown from it falls in POK


jeetIAF

[amritvani]

Iraq’s military commander is shia whose ethnicity is Kurd (forgot his name).

Babaker Shawkat Zebari, he wanted US to stay longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babaker_Shawkat_B._Zebari
Finally $750 billion, not every strategic value has monetary equivalent, look Siachen, India captured this glacier after successful completion of operation Meghdoot in 1980, it has no economical value, it drains resources but it has high strategic value, a single stone thrown from it falls in POK


Except Sianchen was Indian terriroty whereas US will loot the oil from Iraqis and changed the mood for the whole world with pretext of WMD and Al Qaeda ties that were non existent.

[jeetiaf]

Babaker Shawkat Zebari, he wanted US to stay longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babaker_Shawkat_B._Zebari

Yes an Israeli comrade here, told me his name, any ways thanks for wiki link about him


Except Sianchen was Indian terriroty whereas US will loot the oil from Iraqis and changed the mood for the whole world with pretext of WMD and Al Qaeda ties that were non existent.

Israeli told me that MOSSAD told bush administration that there was nothing like WMD in Iraq, but still US went into war, I personally feel if you want your nation to achieve military or strategic victory then never try to be politically correct. When US try to be politically correct it is bound to lose. If US military really moves out of Iraq with everything things will be back to square again, my Israeli comrade is ready to bet $500 on US complete withdrawal.
Indian government is now going to amend AFSPA to be politically correct, and we are going to see worse situation in India soon


jeetIAF

[amritvani]

Israeli told me that MOSSAD told bush administration that there was nothing like WMD in Iraq, but still US went into war, I personally feel if you want your nation to achieve military or strategic victory then never try to be politically correct. When US try to be politically correct it is bound to lose. If US military really moves out of Iraq with everything things will be back to square again, my Israeli comrade is ready to bet $500 on US complete withdrawal.

What do you mean by back to square again? Saddam had a good hold over Iraq and now it will be utter chaos don't you think? US will withdraw because they don't need to be present militarily as they will still have control and plenty of force in nearby countries anyway.


Indian government is now going to amend AFSPA to be politically correct, and we are going to see worse situation in India soon


I see news about withdrawal in areas with little violence but nothing about actually amending AFSPA recently. There is no need to be politically correct or incorrect and I don't give a damn about human rights organizations when troubled areas are concerned.

[echarcha]

If Pres Obama pulls out of Iraq completely he will prove to be just like Jimmy Carter who fucked up in Iran.

Anyway, as David Letterman joked the other night 'Oh the Pres is on his 6th vacation since he took office? Well, he could have waited as he will have enough time after his one term (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/25/letterman-obama-can-vacat_n_694084.html)' :D :D

[amritvani]

If Pres Obama pulls out of Iraq completely he will prove to be just like Jimmy Carter who fucked up in Iran.

Anyway, as David Letterman joked the other night 'Oh the Pres is on his 6th vacation since he took office? Well, he could have waited as he will have enough time after his one term (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/25/letterman-obama-can-vacat_n_694084.html)' :D :D

I don't see how Iraq situation is related to the Jimmy Carter's failure then. obama is here to stay for the seond term; the only question is who will be the vice president.

[echarcha]

Obama might win the second term, but right now things look very dim for him. Jimmy Carter was the total leftie loony tunes who fucked up in Iran and now Obama will do the same in Iraq.

Iraq was a one way street. US is in and cannot really exit completely. Situation is fucked up and now for sake of safety of US and US interests, US will have to remain in Iraq.

[echarcha]

Here, on Obama ... and his second term ..


Even America's liberal elites concede that Obama's Presidency is crumbling
(http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100052779/even-americas-liberal-elites-concede-that-obamas-presidency-is-crumbling/)

[kkkk]

KKKK pai, Tony Blair who you cite as a winner actually deceived people into believing the need for war. Ditto for George Bush. These countries are supposed to be showpieces of democracies. Isn't it ironic that even in democracy individuals could gain heavily at the expense of people? Is Democracy not a good model for nation state? Then what is?

oh, I couldnt figure out the off-topic comment earlier. But I get it now.
aise to whether is democracy (parliamentary or presidential), communism, dictatorship or monarchy, power is always concentrated in the hands of a few. They will always implement their policies. These will be to achieve what they think is right. There will always be a selfish purpose.
democracy mein to phir bhi even as an ideology, there is a chance for personal enrichment, in communism, there is no chance of that - yet we see it happening.

[amritvani]

oh, I couldnt figure out the off-topic comment earlier. But I get it now.
aise to whether is democracy (parliamentary or presidential), communism, dictatorship or monarchy, power is always concentrated in the hands of a few. They will always implement their policies. These will be to achieve what they think is right. There will always be a selfish purpose.
democracy mein to phir bhi even as an ideology, there is a chance for personal enrichment, in communism, there is no chance of that - yet we see it happening.

It is great to be Haliburton / Kellogg, Brown and Root for enrichment. They latch on to good stuff no matter what the government is.

[amritvani]

Here, on Obama ... and his second term ..

ye to chalega hi... Bush's popularity was like negative % in the pre-election polls but he still won nevertheless.