Define Elightenment ... you words ... no books, no quotes, no copy/pastes [Archive]

chitrala

January 22nd, 2008, 07:17 PM

I cannot recall the word ... in olden times ... father of the bride ... the king ... organized competitions ... smarts and the physical strength ... winner got the hands of he princess and lived happily ever after except in case of Lord Rama who only got in to million troubles. So ... this is it ... your chance to win Tantric Yogi's affection for life.

Define enlightenment ... no quotes from five thousand year old books or current millionaire authors be they sadhus, sants, rishis, or PhD turned seers ... no copy/pastes ... no links either. For god sake come up with few original thoughts.

here ... (http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showpost.php?p=375694&postcount=38).

Hmmm... tough question....you don't want us to take help of any reference either...
Enlightenment....
Let's break the word into parts....
En-light-en-ment...
This is a peculiar word with "en" as prefix and suffix both....
So the root word is "Light"...What does light connote here...I think(no reference) it depends upon person to person...you can take the meaning of Light as in "light of knowledge" or as in "getting Lighter by shedding the burden of Agyaan(ignorance)"
In this context "lighten" means..getting the knowledge or shedding the ignorance..."ment" suffix put one into the process of getting Knowledge...And Again "en" prefix put one into another process...

To sum up...when you are on the journey to the process of getting "knowledge"...you are being "enlightened"....Now add philoshit to it and be a saint:)....Knowledge could mean anything under the sun....Infact Kranti pai has given an excellent example.....and unless you have ever been on a hot roof to pluck guavas...you'll never realise the depth of it....The real joy of guava can be relished by plucking fresh from "ped" and not from an airconditioned store...
In short...journey to light is as important as the light itself....

A crappy explanation of a beautiful word:D

tantric_yogi

January 22nd, 2008, 07:43 PM

Hmmm... tough question....you don't want us to take help of any reference either...
Enlightenment....
Let's break the word into parts....
En-light-en-ment...
This is a peculiar word with "en" as prefix and suffix both....
So the root word is "Light"...What does light connote here...I think(no reference) it depends upon person to person...you can take the meaning of Light as in "light of knowledge" or as in "getting Lighter by shedding the burden of Agyaan(ignorance)"
In this context "lighten" means..getting the knowledge or shedding the ignorance..."ment" suffix put one into the process of getting Knowledge...And Again "en" prefix put one into another process...

To sum up...when you are on the journey to the process of getting "knowledge"...you are being "enlightened"....Now add philoshit to it and be a saint:)....Knowledge could mean anything under the sun....Infact Kranti pai has given an excellent example.....and unless you have ever been on a hot roof to pluck guavas...you'll never realise the depth of it....The real joy of guava can be relished by plucking fresh from "ped" and not from an airconditioned store...
In short...journey to light is as important as the light itself....

A crappy explanation of a beautiful word:D

:up: Appreciate ... good attempt ... salute ... except you spoiled it all with Krantikaribhai's exampel ... all Krantikarbhai pointed to is of painful experience ... nekst tem wear rubber slippers ... a lesson well learned and earned. I speak of Landyabhai kind of enlightenment and not hot tim roof variety. I don't bloody get no respek.

:) Landyabhai ... sorry ... Sir, I must beg to be forgiven for not accepting your definition ... either you are in agreementing with my own personal definition or trying to hide behind ambiguity of two most mis-used and maligned words. Two words used and abused by millionaire authors, sadhus and street variety of saints for thousands of years and you have used them to describe an experience so beautiful ... reasons escape me.

landyaBhai

January 22nd, 2008, 09:15 PM

:) Landyabhai ... sorry ... Sir, I must beg to be forgiven for not accepting your definition ... either you are in agreementing with my own personal definition or trying to hide behind ambiguity of two most mis-used and maligned words. Two words used and abused by millionaire authors, sadhus and street variety of saints for thousands of years and you have used them to describe an experience so beautiful ... reasons escape me.

Sirji, You caught me ... This may be the words from books that I have read ... I give up ...

krantikari

January 22nd, 2008, 10:08 PM

Tantrik Pai... whay you are so bent on making me a Bhuddhist... everyone must go through the punishments of ones deeds to complete their journey. You finish the journey and you get the answers you seek. Jus pick up hints along the way and try to solve the puzzle. That's the fun. Enjoy !!

smellyfinger

January 23rd, 2008, 06:21 AM

Enlightenment ... is what you experience in the last few seconds before you die. At that time, all else fades away and you only remember what you care about the most.

dollyg

January 23rd, 2008, 06:57 AM

Its a difficult question for us dhartiwaadi's who are far from an enlightened state.
i think , when we attain the 'sam' state - i.e we are unimpacted by the craziness/sorrow/joy death/birth around us we are closest to the meaning of that word.....

vyomkeshsaxena

January 23rd, 2008, 07:03 AM

dollyg

January 23rd, 2008, 07:32 AM

i guess...enlightment is when u see/experience something..good or bad...give a smile and move on without getting overwhelmed....

i dont think i will be able to explain this stuff....it just came out :D

give a smile ? really? :D why would an enlightened individual smile over something bad? because he was happy enough to figure out that it does not matter?
this is funny :))

krantikari

January 23rd, 2008, 08:42 AM

give a smile ? really? :D why would an enlightened individual smile over something bad? because he was happy enough to figure out that it does not matter?
this is funny :))

Don't you get it... ? it just came out.... and he smiled.. :D Truly enlightened soul.

krantikari

January 23rd, 2008, 08:48 AM

Now... Tantrik Pai... getting serious ...
Enlightenment : Well... for me ... all souls are on a journey and they seek Almighty... knowingly or unknowingly. Now all try to find correct and there are thousands who show directions... seldom knowing that they themselves are lost or with the idea of deceit... whichever. Lord himself decides to show the correct path to a worthy individual so that the fortunate soul can happily reach the final destination unwavering from the path. He/She is an enlightened soul. The rest of us who are unfortunate have to traverse back and forth the blind ally in this world of maze and may stumble on the truth sooner or later ... with an occassional devine aid.

I hope you are satisfied with my answer. No not googled.. but my own.

landyaBhai

January 23rd, 2008, 09:11 AM

love_to_surf

January 23rd, 2008, 10:07 AM

:) For me enlightenment is-----State of human mind which is thoughtfree...bondfree and craves only one desire that is to get completely aligned with GOD.

Basically think of any pure Saint...they are the ones who have achieved such state of mind....But this is Spiritual Enlightenment ...Now world is polluted and no human being is able to reach to such an state..so another aspect of enlightenment is Non-Spiritual ....Any human being who has attained lots and lots of knowledge can also be called as enlightened.

There are few people even today who are not like olden times Saints but still have very differently nurtured soul...who are selfless...who have no attachments to pleasure of life and lot more kind qualities than average human.... who only think of doing upliftment of troubled souls...For me these are people who have attained enlightenment.I cannot precisely define enlightenment but there are several situations I feel/experience enlightenment.

I give one example....Baba Amte and his son Prakash Amte are living enlightened people...I find huge enlightenment in those Divine Messengers.....See if you feel too..... (1)..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKFhF01pGVE&feature=related )(2)..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKBznoidCQ&feature=related)(3). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_7Ah0Mi28I&feature=related)

:) Yogiji...Do you mean "Swayamvar" for those king organised competitions.?

chitrala

January 23rd, 2008, 11:28 AM

:) For me enlightenment is-----State of human mind which is thoughtfree...bondfree and craves only one desire that is to get completely aligned with GOD.

Well...I'll differ here...I don't think enlightenment is a state of Thaughtlessness....that is samadhi or being under influence of a severe drug.... Enlightenment might lead to state of thaughtlessness.... After getting enlightened Buddha spread light to many...he was definitely not in the state of thaughtlessness...
more later...

28virgo

January 23rd, 2008, 11:38 AM

Enlightenment is when an Individual breaks the shackles of limiting belief systems which bind him and in the process discovers his true calling in life.

krantikari

January 23rd, 2008, 01:22 PM

If God decides who should He guide then He is biased ... He is NOT what we call in Vedas "Sat-Chit-Ananda-Vigraha" ... He is NOT transcendental and definetly not detached (prasakti or vairagya)

God is biased. He has to favor good and punish evil. Why are there rich and poor, strong and weak, healthy and sick ? If there is someone exceptionally dear to him, he definetly will favor him.

landyaBhai

January 23rd, 2008, 01:51 PM

God is biased. He has to favor good and punish evil. Why are there rich and poor, strong and weak, healthy and sick ? If there is someone exceptionally dear to him, he definetly will favor him.

rich and poor ... health and sickness ...

they are like night and day ... they are complementary ... one is needed to complete the other ... personally, I think these things fit well in the larger context of this existence ... and are temporary ... One cannot conclude that the poor is not favoured by the God and the rich is or vice-versa ...

For example, in a forest, a small blade of grass is nothing in comparison to the tall and strong bamboo ... the scriptures cannot claim that the grass is poor and the bamboo is rich ... these are all qualitative ... or for that matter, grass is not favoured by God and the bamboo is ... eveyrthing that is there makes the forest complete, with something missing (even if it is minute and insignificant) it would be incomplete ...

Sane Less

January 23rd, 2008, 04:02 PM

Enlightenment is simple... it means understanding the ultimate meaning of life (or it could also mean turning the light on in a room)... and so far, in the history of mankind... no one has attained enlightenment (the meaning of life, not turning the light on in a room). Those who have said they have, have lied... and in doing so, conned a whole lot of people.

Saying I have attained enlighment is like saying I always win when I gamble. Unattainable... illogical.

Big-D

January 23rd, 2008, 05:17 PM

edited

Esoteric phrases as these don't really connote a common paradigm of enlightenment.

Or maybe enlightenment means different things to different people.

The closest I've ever got, on a frequent basis, is when I've downed a couple of Glenfiddich's or Jim Beam's and am standing in my balcony , holding tightly onto the balustrade,nary a sexual thought in my head, staring over treetops into the horizon, and feeling what jonathan livingstone seagull must have felt like when soaring into the skies.Sachcheee!!!! That's it...that's enlightenment for me.

The other occassions, on a very infrequent basis, have been when am ambling along a deserted road ,after a vigorous run, tired and exhausted,and I feel a swoon coming down upon me, at which point, I and the ground become one, there's a gut-wrenching feeling rising slowly from within me, that then engulfs my head and I feel "elevated" , floating above the road.This though ends pretty quickly,the whole phenomenon having taken place within a minute or so.

tantric_yogi

January 23rd, 2008, 05:26 PM

I am in awe! I AM IN AWE. You all have granted upon me the privilege and I am so glad to be in the company of people who can think and find answer to the meaning of the word which has confused mighty ones. Thanks to you all.

LTSben ... yes ... SWAYAMBAR. hahahahaha thanks.

Saxena Sahib ... yes, this is what I meant ... let it out ... just let it out and you did ... and started the train of thoughts among our members ... thanks.

So this is what enlightenment is all about ... its some form of knowing, knowledge, realization ... that in any type of given circumstances ... there is more to it than what we see, what we sense, what we feel, what our mind thinks or make of it ... there is more to it than what our mind can sense. So, this is it.

Couple of good members associated enlightenment with the God ... the supreme being ... the almighty. I think fair ... in our mind we associate gods with the ultimate knowledge ... the knower ... entity which knows everything there was to know ... is to know. So we humans being inquisitive by nature ... want to know what the god knows ... want to feel how the superem being feels ... for few minutes or (longer if possible) we all want to place ourself in the shoes of the GODS!

Now I must humbly address two of our most learned members I respect and adore for their knolwdge. If we were to turn the clock back a thousand years ...these two will be sitting under the peepal tree and entire village will sit for hours to listen to them explain secrets to hidden knwoledge ... entire village except Tantric Yogi being rotten brat that he is.

I and of course refer to my idols ... :) Landyabhai and :) Krantikaribhai.

Krantikaribhai ... with great respect you have earned ... your meaning to the word went over my head. For such a simple minded person to come up with such complicated meaning to the word ... is that possible? English is a beautiful language. Unlike our own Hindi or Sanskrit ... English language permits you choices of units to express your feelings. Beauty of Enlgish is that it gives you a choice of a 3 letter word which has exactly sem sem meaning as a 15 letter one. :D

Landyabhai ... as is your nature ... you try to find answers in the holy books written by great saints and some recent ones from foothpaths of Hutatma Chowk. Perhaps you can but try hard as I do ... I cannot place myself in the shoes of sages who spent entire lives atop the mountains never having to worry about children, bills, and bank accounts. I have tried but cannot. I cannot place myself in the shoes of swamis who pick up a photo grapher and a carpet and a karmandal drive to the nearest forest and find a spot to have picture taken under a tree ... for adorn cover of some stupid hardbound $100 copy of a book. I am an adult and I respect my intelligence ... god has given me a mind which has capacity to absorb knowledge ... but I need to be able to place myself in the shoes of the person sitting under the peepal tree.

Too long ... will come back to correct misteks and grammering.

chitrala

January 23rd, 2008, 05:31 PM

God is biased. He has to favor good and punish evil. Why are there rich and poor, strong and weak, healthy and sick ? If there is someone exceptionally dear to him, he definetly will favor him.

Good point.....not only he is biased but he is flawed, imperfect and tyrranical also(if he exists at all) also....if he would have come to me with this "world"(leave Universe) as a project....I would give him B-...This is a crappy world... And all these little imperfections are not complimentary.... Misery outdoes happiness by miles....

It is unfair to blame humans for all the wrongs....God never gave us a perfect world....It is man who made it worth living...agree, in the process we screwed somethings up a bigtime...but it still much better than it was say 5000 years ago....

On the top of all these things we are supposed to kow-tow before this tyrranical fellow....who a la Nero chose to look other way....Why do we need to be a sycophant....We seldom get anything easily....he never comes and says "tathastu"....Yes there are good things in nature which are free....but that is the essence of life....Those are basic necessities...without which we can't do....it is the paradoxes of "just" world which bothers me....on one hand we have a one year old dying of hunger and on the other there are dictators live their life happily and die a comfortable death...who cares what happen them after death....

For example, in a forest, a small blade of grass is nothing in comparison to the tall and strong bamboo ... the scriptures cannot claim that the grass is poor and the bamboo is rich ... these are all qualitative ... or for that matter, grass is not favoured by God and the bamboo is ... eveyrthing that is there makes the forest complete, with something missing (even if it is minute and insignificant) it would be incomplete .

Wrong example....if a bamboo doesn't let grass grow...then there is a problem and it is not grass' fault....the onus doesn't lie on bamboo either...if it is made that way...that no grass can grow near it...then it is maker's fault....error hai uske programme mein...daily crash karta hai...wrong results deta hai....it is just bad programming...

tantric_yogi

January 23rd, 2008, 06:19 PM

Krantikaribhai ... yes sir ... now that I read agen ... thanks. We seek ... lucky find the way or find the right path and some of us just mistake Kamathipura for a heavenly temple ... seekers ... all of us ... nevertheless.

Now I await Landyabhai and Amthalalaji, Coolbhai and of course finances guru HarHarMahadeosinghi and few more. :D Sutradarji obviously is too busy to bother.

So much to learn ...

:)

krantikari

January 23rd, 2008, 06:29 PM

Krantikaribhai ... with great respect you have earned ... your meaning to the word went over my head. For such a simple minded person to come up with such complicated meaning to the word ... is that possible? English is a beautiful language. Unlike our own Hindi or Sanskrit ... English language permits you choices of units to express your feelings. Beauty of Enlgish is that it gives you a choice of a 3 letter word which has exactly sem sem meaning as a 15 letter one. :D

What are you saying sir... you will find me among the least respected and most abused ppl in this sansar. :D :D I dunnu.... where did I earn measly pennies of respeck.

Whats more ... I didnt get the gist of your comments.. care to explain to this simpleton sirjee ?

tantric_yogi

January 23rd, 2008, 07:35 PM

What are you saying sir... you will find me among the least respected and most abused ppl in this sansar. :D :D I dunnu.... where did I earn measly pennies of respeck.

Whats more ... I didnt get the gist of your comments.. care to explain to this simpleton sirjee ?

My bad. (Note: Yogi talking Queen's English)

Krantikaribhai ... yes sir ... now that I read agen ... thanks. We seek ... lucky find the way or find the right path and some of us just mistake Kamathipura for a heavenly temple ... seekers ... all of us ... nevertheless.

Now I await Landyabhai and Amthalalaji, Coolbhai and of course finances guru HarHarMahadeosinghi and few more. Sutradarji obviously is too busy to bother.

So much to learn ...

landyaBhai

January 23rd, 2008, 07:57 PM

Tantuji, there is nothing to say more ... whatever that will be said will just undone what has been said before ... you are right ... placing landya as the topmost among LLKCs ...

vyomkeshsaxena

January 23rd, 2008, 08:10 PM

give a smile ? really? :D why would an enlightened individual smile over something bad? because he was happy enough to figure out that it does not matter?
this is funny :))

:) :)

move on now :D

amal

January 23rd, 2008, 10:14 PM

When u have no desire , no worry and have carefree mind tht is called enlightenment.

TerminatorJR

January 25th, 2008, 01:33 PM

Tantuji, the feeling one gets when one is in the process of orgasm; hope I am not far away from the answer and I get your affection for life (hope it can be converted into $$ j/k). :)

Sane Less

January 25th, 2008, 01:39 PM

Tantuji, the feeling one gets when one is in the process of orgasm; hope I am not far away from the answer and I get your affection for life (hope it can be converted into $$ j/k). :)
Temrinajor pai, you will get his affection if you process his H4 visa... and at that time you will get your enlightenment too (as per your definition):D

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 01:42 PM

Tantuji, the feeling one gets when one is in the process of orgasm; hope I am not far away from the answer and I get your affection for life (hope it can be converted into $$ j/k). :)

that means staying in constant bliss without the idea to classify it as bliss

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 01:58 PM

Looks you all are talking about not the path but the destination !! The final destination for all jivs - Moksha.

Different from the enlightenment... the path.

What's more, the Moksha is defined differently in Advaita and Dvaita. And the ISKONIKS :D have their own version of things...
There are more.. many more... in Hinduism.

ShivSainik

January 25th, 2008, 02:07 PM

Elightenment or moksha is destination for all. Its believed to be good thing, but ask anybody now whether you want it and nobody wants it.

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 02:14 PM

Elightenment or moksha is destination for all. Its believed to be good thing, but ask anybody now whether you want it and nobody wants it.

There we go again.... confusing path with destination.

Enlightement : supposed to be before death.
Moksh : supposed to be after death

Simple !! Get it ? :D ;)

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 02:26 PM

There we go again.... confusing path with destination.

Enlightement : supposed to be before death.
Moksh : supposed to be after death

Simple !! Get it ? :D ;)

death is not a factor ... it is not a stumbling block to achieve Moksha ... Moksha means a state of irreversible enlightenment where the Jiva has no possibility of falling back to an un-enlightened state ...

Buddha was in MOKSHA when and after/He got enlightened ... actually, to state this is also wrong ... because we are enlightened, it's just that we have forgotten about it completely ... and since we have forgotten about it, we are in illusion and go through un-ending experiences of valleys of dispair and peaks of pleasures ....

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 02:27 PM

death is not a factor ... it is not a stumbling block to achieve Moksha ... Moksha means a state of irreversible enlightenment where the Jiva has no possibility of falling back to an un-enlightened state ...

Buddha was in MOKSHA when and after/He got enlightened ... actually, to state this is also wrong ... because we are enlightened, it's just that we have forgotten about it completely ... and since we have forgotten about it, we are in illusion and go through un-ending experiences of valleys of dispair and peaks of pleasures ....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRAaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrGGGGGGGGGggggggggggggggggg Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!

ShivSainik

January 25th, 2008, 04:10 PM

There we go again.... confusing path with destination.

Enlightement : supposed to be before death.
Moksh : supposed to be after death

Simple !! Get it ? :D ;)

How can "you" get a thing after death, when existence of you does not remain ?

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 04:37 PM

How can "you" get a thing after death, when existence of you does not remain ?

eggzhactkly ;)

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 04:49 PM

eggzhactkly ;)

Well lets say... Moksha is attained after we are liberated from the cycle of entering and leaving our bodies i.e. after we finally leave our insantient body. I never die.

No Tantu sir.. I know your incanny ability to interpret stuff when it comes to bodies... ;)

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 05:00 PM

Well lets say... Moksha is attained after we are liberated from the cycle of entering and leaving our bodies i.e. after we finally leave our insantient body. I never die.

No Tantu sir.. I know your incanny ability to interpret stuff when it comes to bodies... ;)

So does it mean that?

(1) it i.e. Moksha did not exist when one was in one's body ... but it started existing when one's body was not there and still that in-destructible-ONE was there to identify this "causality/transiently acquired moksha-like" destination ...

OR

(2) Moksha was always there irrespective of one's bodily position (creation & destruction) as "in-destructible-ONE" is always there as it goes through this endless process of acquiring new bodies ... So, then how come "moksha" and that "in-destructible-ONE" is not separate or the opposite how are they separate?

and if they are separate, it means that "in-destructible-ONE" and the moksha that it had acquired after some time by one's persistence will some day be lost as well (as it seems to be bound by time and even position in-body, outside-body)

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 05:13 PM

Moksha starts now click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9-42qGV7FI)

tantric_yogi

January 25th, 2008, 05:19 PM

Tantuji, the feeling one gets when one is in the process of orgasm; hope I am not far away from the answer and I get your affection for life (hope it can be converted into $$ j/k). :)

roflmao ... bhaYa ... yes ... you got it. For ordinary plain people like you and me half an hour to few hours (depending upon the time available and the need) is enough of the enlightenment. We get our fix and pray for another enlightenment come tomorrow.

But you here are discussing enlightenment with a bunch middle age hawks to who orgasm kind of enlightenment is considered dirty and unworthy of practice. This here is enlightenment they dream of ... white robes ... own little cloud on Gandhi Street in the sky ... watching Mother Teresa playing flute ... all cloud dwellers singing bhajjans together ... 24/7/366/366.

krantikari

January 25th, 2008, 05:25 PM

roflmao ... bhaYa ... yes ... you got it. For ordinary plain people like you and me half an hour to few hours (depending upon the time available and the need) is enough of the enlightenment. We get our fix and pray for another enlightenment come tomorrow.

But you here are discussing enlightenment with a bunch middle age hawks to who orgasm kind of enlightenment is considered dirty and unworthy of practice. This here is enlightenment they dream of ... white robes ... own little cloud on Gandhi Street in the sky ... watching Mother Teresa playing flute ... all cloud dwellers singing bhajjans together ... 24/7/366/366.

Osho type cloud dwellers follow exactly this type of enlightenment sir ji --- day and night. Clouds created from smoke they created... pots... whtever. They take pills to continue the meditations.... so that they can continue to get enlightened for longer time than they usually can.

tantric_yogi

January 25th, 2008, 05:48 PM

Osho type cloud dwellers follow exactly this type of enlightenment sir ji --- day and night. Clouds created from smoke they created... pots... whtever. They take pills to continue the meditations.... so that they can continue to get enlightened for longer time than they usually can.

while OSHO himself is inside receiving Termibhai variety of enlightenment. roflmao

But this here I get to admire Landyabhai ... he is least bothered about the person's traits ... he is in to words as in teachings. Landyabhai dwells upon the ideas and not the person behind the ideas. This is what sets him aprat from the crowd. I want to be in the shoes of the master receiving same enlightenment he is receiving inside the closed doors not paying much attention to his lectures out in veranda or garden.

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 06:26 PM

Osho type cloud dwellers follow exactly this type of enlightenment sir ji --- day and night. Clouds created from smoke they created... pots... whtever. They take pills to continue the meditations.... so that they can continue to get enlightened for longer time than they usually can.

alcohol is one such example, helps one forget himself ... you can conclude all you want regarding certain set of followers ... crowd is a crowd ... person is a person ... I hope you know the difference because a person as such has a limited understanding of itself ... let alone making a conclusion about the other person by looking at the crowd in which he happens to be in on a random day ...

landyaBhai

January 25th, 2008, 10:29 PM

Good point.....not only he is biased but he is flawed, imperfect and tyrranical also(if he exists at all) also....if he would have come to me with this "world"(leave Universe) as a project....I would give him B-...This is a crappy world... And all these little imperfections are not complimentary.... Misery outdoes happiness by miles....

Those are all your mental excursions and because of people like you there are religions who claim that God is their sole propriety ... they have created the Devil to signify acts as devilish or holy ... I see myself sometimes feeling emotions that make me uneasy and at other times, some other emotion makes me feel elevated ... It happens to everyone of us ... Now, dont tell me that you say that it is becuase of this imperfect world or the devil ... It is nothing ... It is all in our mind ... some things we qualify as perfection and others as imperfections ...

Among animals and plants, there is no rich/poor ... beautiful or ugly ... strong ... weak ...

It is unfair to blame humans for all the wrongs....God never gave us a perfect world....

God gave us a perfect world ... It's because of humans that we have to pay 3$ for mineral water and 15$ to see animals in the zoo ...

It is man who made it worth living...agree, in the process we screwed somethings up a bigtime...but it still much better than it was say 5000 years ago....

Life was always better ... 5000 years ago, people in that era were much better than people 5000 years earlier than them ... we are all evolving ... life is and will always be better ... the problem is we have complicated the way we life our life ... birth, youth, oldness, and sickness ... they havent changed ... We still die the unpredictable way ... we still feel love the same way ... we still breathe the same oxygen ... we havent changed ...

On the top of all these things we are supposed to kow-tow before this tyrranical fellow....who a la Nero chose to look other way....Why do we need to be a sycophant....We seldom get anything easily....he never comes and says "tathastu"....

Nobody has asked you to kneel-down in front of anyone ... most of the times ppl kneel down in the temple to ask God to fulfill their wishes ... do you expect your parents to fulfill your desire ... the advise that your parents suggested in childhood sometimes may have contradicted your ideas ... at that time it must have felt tyrannical to you ... but in the overall scheme of things, can you claim to have the precise knowledge to justify who should be benefitted of good health, long age, luxury and comforts ... You can't .... we dont know what our mental state would be the next minute ... and you want to justify the state of the world as tyranny ... It seems absurd ...

Yes there are good things in nature which are free....but that is the essence of life....Those are basic necessities...without which we can't do

Atleast you recognized that! ... We should be thankful ... the same way when we are suffering or when we are happy, we should realize that these are also coming for free ....

....it is the paradoxes of "just" world which bothers me....on one hand we have a one year old dying of hunger and on the other there are dictators live their life happily and die a comfortable death...who cares what happen them after death....

There is no paradox ... I dont remember which story of Munshi Premchand it is, but there is a scenario where a poor is eating his roti and a bhikari comes asking for food ... he gives a part of his roti to this bhikari and he feels happy ... both are happy ... a sort of compassion arises ... Imagine, if all the plants bear rose flowers, I am sure you will be bored of those flowers ... kabhi kaatein chahiye hotey hai, ek gulaab ko dekhne keyy liye ... It all in the grand scheme of things ... try to see it and you will see the leelaa ...

Wrong example....if a bamboo doesn't let grass grow...then there is a problem and it is not grass' fault....the onus doesn't lie on bamboo either...if it is made that way...that no grass can grow near it...then it is maker's fault....

You are blaming the bamboo and then the maker of the bamboo ... Are you sure that the bamboo even knows that the grass is there growing near him ... Are you sure that the bamboo knows that it is mightier than the grass ... With strong winds, the bamboo will fall and the grass being supple will just bend and will not fall to the ground ... Classifying things as bad ... or something is faulty or playing the blame game doesnt change anything ... it's the blamer who gets affected not the one who is getting blamed upon especially when it is either the bamboo or the grass or the maker of these that are being blamed upon ...

chitrala

January 25th, 2008, 11:21 PM

Those are all your mental excursions and because of people like you there are religions who claim that God is their sole propriety ... they have created the Devil to signify acts as devilish or holy ... I see myself sometimes feeling emotions that make me uneasy and at other times, some other emotion makes me feel elevated ... It happens to everyone of us ... Now, dont tell me that you say that it is becuase of this imperfect world or the devil ... It is nothing ... It is all in our mind ... some things we qualify as perfection and others as imperfections ...
Interesting....I never mentioned devil...did I...what I was saying that God did a sloppy job while making this world....of course perfection is a relative word and we need night to appreciate day....
But what beats me is the meaninglessness of many things....why someone has to live without water while other is surviving flood....

Among animals and plants, there is no rich/poor ... beautiful or ugly ... strong ... weak ...
Nope....nothing grows under a bunyan tree....parasitic plants kills the host plants...

God gave us a perfect world ... It's because of humans that we have to pay 3$ for mineral water and 15$ to see animals in the zoo ... I am not talking about manmade things....just look at the earth....60% of it is water...unlivable for humans and other land animals... there are either stretches of deserts or forests....some place are so cold that you can freeze to death...some are so hot that you can't survive....these are extremes and not relativity...if God would have given us a perfect world...then we never had to move to agriculture from Hunting....

Life was always better ... 5000 years ago, people in that era were much better than people 5000 years earlier than them ... we are all evolving ... life is and will always be better ... the problem is we have complicated the way we life our life ... birth, youth, oldness, and sickness ... they havent changed ... We still die the unpredictable way ... we still feel love the same way ... we still breathe the same oxygen ... we havent changed ... Yes we are getting better....but not because of God but because of human "jijivisha"....we are making this world better ( in a way worse also because of environmental trade off)....yeah...basal instinct of humans has not changed...but still we are not the animal we were aome thousand years ago..... we are programmed to breathe oxygen...feel pain....no human or animal is beyond this...

Nobody has asked you to kneel-down in front of anyone ... most of the times ppl kneel down in the temple to ask God to fulfill their wishes ... do you expect your parents to fulfill your desire ... the advise that your parents suggested in childhood sometimes may have contradicted your ideas ... at that time it must have felt tyrannical to you ... but in the overall scheme of things, can you claim to have the precise knowledge to justify who should be benefitted of good health, long age, luxury and comforts ... You can't .... we dont know what our mental state would be the next minute ... and you want to justify the state of the world as tyranny ... It seems absurd ...
Religion asks me to kneel down before God.....Impressionable mind of a kid is filled with things that God runs these world....one should worship Him....etc. etc..... many of us die without questioning it ever in their life...

Yes, parents teach us many things - obviously thinking that they're right- but they are not always right...are they...they can't be.....

I see world as an absurd idea in religious perspective...personally I can't make head or tail of it.... it is beyond my comprehension....But what I'm sure of is God certainly doesn't function the way religious people think Him to be....it is just not logical...He doesn't seem to be benevolent...May be in bigger picture His benevolence come out to be true...but on mundane level I can't see it..

Atleast you recognized that! ... We should be thankful ... the same way when we are suffering or when we are happy, we should realize that these are also coming for free ....
I never denied human folly and foolhardy...

There is no paradox ... I dont remember which story of Munshi Premchand it is, but there is a scenario where a poor is eating his roti and a bhikari comes asking for food ... he gives a part of his roti to this bhikari and he feels happy ... both are happy ... a sort of compassion arises ... Imagine, if all the plants bear rose flowers, I am sure you will be bored of those flowers ... kabhi kaatein chahiye hotey hai, ek gulaab ko dekhne keyy liye ... It all in the grand scheme of things ... try to see it and you will see the leelaa ...
Like I said ...I appreciate relativity....what I am saying is they are not in just proportion....world is just not just....even in large scheme of things paying lacs of innocent lives as collateral and not the guilties does not convince me of righteousness...

You are blaming the bamboo and then the maker of the bamboo ... Are you sure that the bamboo even knows that the grass is there growing near him ... Are you sure that the bamboo knows that it is mightier than the grass ... With strong winds, the bamboo will fall and the grass being supple will just bend and will not fall to the ground ... Classifying things as bad ... or something is faulty or playing the blame game doesnt change anything ... it's the blamer who gets affected not the one who is getting blamed upon especially when it is either the bamboo or the grass or the maker of these that are being blamed upon ...
I am not blaming bamboo....am blaming only the programmer or maker...your new parable reminds me of one of the stories of Gibran...I agree that both Bamboo and grass has a place in nature....but if most of the time if only Bamboo survives then there is something wrong with nature....
Survival of the fittest can not be a benevolent God's law....it is too cruel...

krantikari

January 26th, 2008, 07:29 AM

alcohol is one such example, helps one forget himself ... you can conclude all you want regarding certain set of followers ... crowd is a crowd ... person is a person ... I hope you know the difference because a person as such has a limited understanding of itself ... let alone making a conclusion about the other person by looking at the crowd in which he happens to be in on a random day ...

Does'nt everybody do that ? Everyday ?

But me talking about the Rajneesh philosophy !! Not Rajneesh ppl ... not Rajneesh person... Rajneesh ppl are religious followers of the Rajneesh philosophy which is totally based on tantu ji's style of enlightenment and Rajeneesh claims his thoughts are aligned with Bhuddhism ??!! Well... somewhre I read Tantu ji didn't agree with Bhuddhism style of enlightenment ? Well Tantrik Pai !! How can one torture the body so much by taking pills and meditating like Rajneesh cult do ?? Can we have your comments on this ?

landyaBhai

January 26th, 2008, 09:43 AM

Does'nt everybody do that ? Everyday ?

Yes, almost everyone is drugged or drunk and is in stupor with his/her own ideas and dreams ...

But me talking about the Rajneesh philosophy !! Not Rajneesh ppl ... not Rajneesh person... Rajneesh ppl are religious followers of the Rajneesh philosophy which is totally based on tantu ji's style of enlightenment

This is what I thought when wanted to read something about Osho ... the first book I read was "From Sex to Super Consciousness" ... I thought of him as a sort of a SEX GURU ... Well, living in a sex-repressed society, where the mind is almost always involved directly or indirectly to pleasures related to Sex, it seems obvious to why I saw him as a Sex Guru ...

When Buddha was there and when Mahavir was there, at that time, people in India thought something else about them ... most of them were involved in rituals and sacrifices and found it absurd that these guys claim to have reached the highest peak of human achievement ... just by not praying to any God ... they were driven out of India ... Jains are still in a minority and buddhism spread everywhere except India (where it has started)

People stick to whatever they find convenient in their religion ... if they dont find anything suitable ... it is twisted ...

Plus, what I see is that none of Buddha and Mahaveer ever wanted people to set up religion based on their principles of dharma ... But then when one talks, it is upto the listener to see whatever he can interpret ...

What I see and feel is that Osho has handled every topic with great care and has given wonderful insights ... the only problem is that people selected the best out of those insights and made a cult out of it by following it ...

Plus, since sex is the basic instinct and has been a constant source of inspiration as well as trouble, Osho has just pointed out how to get above it ... by not repressing it ... Both Buddha, and most of the Jain Tirthankars were sons of Kings, they led a very lavish life before they left to the Jungle in search of truth ... When one sees the futility in outward bodily pleasures, one goes inside in search for something stable ... that has what has been said by Osho ... Infact, you would be surprised that even Vigyan Bhairav Tantra (coming from Lord Shivji) have some sutras that also talk about sex-activity as if it is like a prayer ... But just because it is a sutra in a book and is a printed one and since no-one has seen the author, people believe that and dont point any fingers (as they dont know whom to blame) ... Yes, I agree that Tantra has not been that popular among Indians and just like Osho's words on sex, they have been mis-represented as consisting of words only about Sex and nothing else ....

and Rajeneesh claims his thoughts are aligned with Bhuddhism ??!!

One person's path to self-enlightenment not necessarily means that the same applies to everyone ... the door is the same and may be the last few steps are the same ... but people are free to reach to that door in whatever way possible .... for example, J. Krishnamurthy claims that he never read any philosophy belonging to any religious system ... he says that he got "realization of his self" by reading mystery novels ... Most of his teachings can be summed by his own words as "always being in a state of choice-less awareness" ...

Osho discusses the various religious systems and gives an idea as to how they relate toward the steps to enlightenment ... Unfortunately, I am in no position to interpret his words, as I am sure I will fall short of whatever he really wanted people to understand ... But in general, he talks about

(step 1) forgeting the self and remembering the other ... that is Bhakti Yoga
(step 2) forgeting the self and forgetting the other as well ... that is Buddhism/Jainism's last step to self-realization ... this is also called Udaseenwat or Veetrag step to self-realization ... in this step, one no more feels any feeling arising in him ...
(step 3) is like raas-leela where one doesnt see oneself and one doesnt see the other as well and the energy that exists is free to dance as it pleases without any attachment ... something similar to the way the lord is dancing with His innumerable creations in this universal existence ...

Please dont quote this ... I may not have done a good job in this interpretation ...

In all the steps, no-mind is the pre-requisite and you will be surprised that that has been propounded in almost all religious systems coming from India, be it vedic or non-vedic or even Patanjali's yoga system ... the state of no-mind is absolutely necessary for prayer or meditation ... or even for the "state of being choice-less awareness" as propounded by J. Krishnamurthy ...

So, it doesnt really matter what was said at that time by Osho ... what matters is, "do they deliver the goods?" ... when one looks at the crowd, one cannot see that the person in that crowd is delivered ... but when one sees the changes in oneself, one knows something interesting is happening ... In that case, words or philosophies dont matter, because the ultimate goal is to see/realize the self ...

Well... somewhre I read Tantu ji didn't agree with Bhuddhism style of enlightenment ? Well Tantrik Pai !! How can one torture the body so much by taking pills and meditating like Rajneesh cult do ?? Can we have your comments on this ?

Osho was always against self-torturing of any sort ... Buddha went through a lot of penance and tapasya ... He literally killed himself bodily but ultimately when He realized that He had tried everything and nothing happened ... He just relaxed and that was the time when He got the nirvana ... Osho's has condemned physical torture ... infact he says to use the body to fulfill every desire and pleasure .... dont just leave the world out of some idea that "a vairagya here on the earth will give pleasure on the other place say heaven" ...

landyaBhai

January 26th, 2008, 10:17 AM

Interesting....I never mentioned devil...did I...what I was saying that God did a sloppy job while making this world....of course perfection is a relative word and we need night to appreciate day....
But what beats me is the meaninglessness of many things....why someone has to live without water while other is surviving flood....

devil and god are all one and the same ... It's people's way of labeling misfortunes on someone and fortunes on someone else ... Just for a moment, feel that there is no Creator ... this Universe has existed eternally and will exists eternally ... you will be surprised, that how vulnerable this feeling will make you ... because now there is no-one to blame for things one doesnt like ...

Nope....nothing grows under a bunyan tree....parasitic plants kills the host plants...

Well, humans can be labeled as parasites on this existence as well ... you should take a day off and see that you dont label anyone anything ... accept everything as it is ... It works! I have tried ... Just one day ... forget the science, the biology, the religion, everything ... assume you know no-one and no one knows you ... You will feel vulnerable but then you will feel that everything is as it is supposed to be ... no-one asked you when you are to be brought to this world and no-one will not ask you again when do you want to go from this place ...

I am not talking about manmade things....just look at the earth....60% of it is water...unlivable for humans and other land animals... there are either stretches of deserts or forests....some place are so cold that you can freeze to death...some are so hot that you can't survive....these are extremes and not relativity...if God would have given us a perfect world...then we never had to move to agriculture from Hunting....

Who has said to you that God made this world for humans *only*

Yes we are getting better....but not because of God but because of human "jijivisha"....we are making this world better ( in a way worse also because of environmental trade off)....yeah...basal instinct of humans has not changed...but still we are not the animal we were aome thousand years ago..... we are programmed to breathe oxygen...feel pain....no human or animal is beyond this...

I say, look at all the wars and all the killing that were done in the name of religion ... the last I asked my mom was that: "When I was born, did God gave you a manual or a bible about how I have to be raised?" But yes everyone has one for the other ....

Religion asks me to kneel down before God.....Impressionable mind of a kid is filled with things that God runs these world....one should worship Him....etc. etc..... many of us die without questioning it ever in their life...

Those are pseudo-religions ... real religion or dharma means to live in such freedom to so as to see oneself and not the impression of other people thoughts on oneself ... one meaning of dharma is "swarup" ... which some people label as "atman" ... It's just a label for linguistic purposes ...

Yes, parents teach us many things - obviously thinking that they're right- but they are not always right...are they...they can't be.....

Yes, you are absolutely right ... do you think you can do anything about that? Acceptance is the only way ...

I see world as an absurd idea in religious perspective...personally I can't make head or tail of it.... it is beyond my comprehension....But what I'm sure of is God certainly doesn't function the way religious people think Him to be....it is just not logical...

Yes absolutely ... we respect the people who can lead the crowd .... who can do penannce and tapasya ... I say, if a beggar wants to get self-respect from the crowd, what he has to do, is to goto the temple and just starve himself in the name of God ... You will not believe the same people who were kicking him for alms will now rush to him considering him to be some sort of a saint ... we have some among Jains as well ...

He doesn't seem to be benevolent...May be in bigger picture His benevolence come out to be true...but on mundane level I can't see it..

On mundane level, we have lost the perspective to see things as they are ... so it makes sense ...

I never denied human folly and foolhardy...

Like I said ...I appreciate relativity....what I am saying is they are not in just proportion....world is just not just....even in large scheme of things paying lacs of innocent lives as collateral and not the guilties does not convince me of righteousness...

I think you just said the opposite just one paragraph back ... On the mundane level, when things dont make sense, we invent fate, righteousness, religion, God, devil, priests, sacrifices, suffering ... etc ...

I am not blaming bamboo....am blaming only the programmer or maker...your new parable reminds me of one of the stories of Gibran...I agree that both Bamboo and grass has a place in nature....but if most of the time if only Bamboo survives then there is something wrong with nature....
Survival of the fittest can not be a benevolent God's law....it is too cruel...

there is nothing like survival of the fittest ... put the man in a cage where lion is and you will know that this law will fail most of the times even when man has the gun in his hand ... It is said that an ant can bring down an elephant .. just one ant ... so nature has its own beauty ... let's not put laws to understand its intricacies ...

I heard a saying that if we wanted to create a beautiful woman, we can put the most beautiful nose, the most beautiful cheeks, best skin color, best pair of eyes and ears, sexy lips, and a good size forehead and you will be surprised that still does not create the most beautiful woman ... something is needed to magnify the beauty of the other ... and it is upto the observer to seek the beauty ... something that seems beautiful to you does not necessarily mean that it is beautiful to all ... Krnsa is one such example, he was all saaavla ... and still he looked handsome to His mother and Radha, his lover and not to all of the others ...

krantikari

January 26th, 2008, 11:51 AM

Yes, almost everyone is drugged or drunk and is in stupor with his/her own ideas and dreams ...

This is what I thought when wanted to read something about Osho ... the first book I read was "From Sex to Super Consciousness" ... I thought of him as a sort of a SEX GURU ... Well, living in a sex-repressed society, where the mind is almost always involved directly or indirectly to pleasures related to Sex, it seems obvious to why I saw him as a Sex Guru ...

When Buddha was there and when Mahavir was there, at that time, people in India thought something else about them ... most of them were involved in rituals and sacrifices and found it absurd that these guys claim to have reached the highest peak of human achievement ... just by not praying to any God ... they were driven out of India ... Jains are still in a minority and buddhism spread everywhere except India (where it has started)

People stick to whatever they find convenient in their religion ... if they dont find anything suitable ... it is twisted ...

Plus, what I see is that none of Buddha and Mahaveer ever wanted people to set up religion based on their principles of dharma ... But then when one talks, it is upto the listener to see whatever he can interpret ...

What I see and feel is that Osho has handled every topic with great care and has given wonderful insights ... the only problem is that people selected the best out of those insights and made a cult out of it by following it ...

Plus, since sex is the basic instinct and has been a constant source of inspiration as well as trouble, Osho has just pointed out how to get above it ... by not repressing it ... Both Buddha, and most of the Jain Tirthankars were sons of Kings, they led a very lavish life before they left to the Jungle in search of truth ... When one sees the futility in outward bodily pleasures, one goes inside in search for something stable ... that has what has been said by Osho ... Infact, you would be surprised that even Vigyan Bhairav Tantra (coming from Lord Shivji) have some sutras that also talk about sex-activity as if it is like a prayer ... But just because it is a sutra in a book and is a printed one and since no-one has seen the author, people believe that and dont point any fingers (as they dont know whom to blame) ... Yes, I agree that Tantra has not been that popular among Indians and just like Osho's words on sex, they have been mis-represented as consisting of words only about Sex and nothing else ....

One person's path to self-enlightenment not necessarily means that the same applies to everyone ... the door is the same and may be the last few steps are the same ... but people are free to reach to that door in whatever way possible .... for example, J. Krishnamurthy claims that he never read any philosophy belonging to any religious system ... he says that he got "realization of his self" by reading mystery novels ... Most of his teachings can be summed by his own words as "always being in a state of choice-less awareness" ...

Osho discusses the various religious systems and gives an idea as to how they relate toward the steps to enlightenment ... Unfortunately, I am in no position to interpret his words, as I am sure I will fall short of whatever he really wanted people to understand ... But in general, he talks about

(step 1) forgeting the self and remembering the other ... that is Bhakti Yoga
(step 2) forgeting the self and forgetting the other as well ... that is Buddhism/Jainism's last step to self-realization ... this is also called Udaseenwat or Veetrag step to self-realization ... in this step, one no more feels any feeling arising in him ...
(step 3) is like raas-leela where one doesnt see oneself and one doesnt see the other as well and the energy that exists is free to dance as it pleases without any attachment ... something similar to the way the lord is dancing with His innumerable creations in this universal existence ...

Please dont quote this ... I may not have done a good job in this interpretation ...

In all the steps, no-mind is the pre-requisite and you will be surprised that that has been propounded in almost all religious systems coming from India, be it vedic or non-vedic or even Patanjali's yoga system ... the state of no-mind is absolutely necessary for prayer or meditation ... or even for the "state of being choice-less awareness" as propounded by J. Krishnamurthy ...

So, it doesnt really matter what was said at that time by Osho ... what matters is, "do they deliver the goods?" ... when one looks at the crowd, one cannot see that the person in that crowd is delivered ... but when one sees the changes in oneself, one knows something interesting is happening ... In that case, words or philosophies dont matter, because the ultimate goal is to see/realize the self ...

Osho was always against self-torturing of any sort ... Buddha went through a lot of penance and tapasya ... He literally killed himself bodily but ultimately when He realized that He had tried everything and nothing happened ... He just relaxed and that was the time when He got the nirvana ... Osho's has condemned physical torture ... infact he says to use the body to fulfill every desire and pleasure .... dont just leave the world out of some idea that "a vairagya here on the earth will give pleasure on the other place say heaven" ...

Number 1 . Buddhism is not teaching of Lord Buddha. It is some group's interpretation of his teachings.
Number 2. Buddha is the God
Number 3. Buddha did not set up new religion. His teachings were on the lines of Ved. Others who chose to reject Ved ended up making Buddhism.
Number 4. What Osho has written in book is marketing. What he says and preaches are not his own ideas.. or realisations... he quotes interesting things like F..k being the most important word word today. There are many more things... wha to say. Try getting into 4th chamber in Osho ashram. Yes it is true the religions which did not accept Ved as their basis didn't prosper in India even if they originated in India. But they are surviving and will continue.
Number 5 : Will continiue later...

landyaBhai

January 26th, 2008, 01:07 PM

Number 1 . Buddhism is not teaching of Lord Buddha. It is some group's interpretation of his teachings.

eggzhacktly ... I have said that in an earlier post ... interpretations only ...

Number 2. Buddha is the God

I havent met Him ... I dont know ...

Number 3. Buddha did not set up new religion.

None of them did, including Krsna and Ram ... Krsna did not say, please write my BG sutras and follow it ... All of them have shared their realizations in words that ignorant like us can understand ... and note, none of them followed the popular religions that society at that time was following ... they followed their inner and others followed them (not their inner) and thus established a religion out of someone's inner understanding ...

and most of the times, someone's personal lives becomes a bible for others to recite every morning ... I think we have enough going in our lives to serve as our personal bibles ..

His teachings were on the lines of Ved. Others who chose to reject Ved ended up making Buddhism.

I dont know ... I have read that Atisha was one of buddhist ascetics that tried to analyze both the vedas and what Buddha said i.e. Dhammapada ..

Number 4. What Osho has written in book is marketing.

That is your interpretation ... It's subjective and even if there is a crowd that can say it is like that ... it doesnt matter to me, cuz what I can claim to know is myself ... nothing beyond that ...

What he says and preaches are not his own ideas.. or realisations...

I am not Osho ... citing one thing is another and claiming that realizations are the same as citations is different altogether ... I am not looking for something that we discussed earlier "samanway-waad" or in English "common teachings across all religions" ... otherwise that by itself will become another religion ... that has happened to Jains ... they have formed divisions based on whether Mahaveer was nude when He got enlightened or whether He had all his belongings with Him ...

he quotes interesting things like F..k being the most important word word today. There are many more things... wha to say.

Just because Buddha talks about something as basic as sex doesnt mean that He is into it ... I dont think words are important ... because they are used to convey things that are open to the interpretation of the listener ... fuck is one such word ... I dont know why it has become important in anybody's pursuit toward the truth ...

Try getting into 4th chamber in Osho ashram.

And I am sure that will not reverse the changes in my nature ... People get pissed because some team screwed up in the game and these same people then curse the team and also elevate the team if it wins ... I dont think, one should be so easily amenable to changes just because there is some holocaust chamber in some ashram ... People have done much worse to themselves and to others ...

Yes it is true the religions which did not accept Ved as their basis didn't prosper in India even if they originated in India. But they are surviving and will continue.

I dont care ... if they continue or not ... the idea is a dharm should let people accept themselves as they are ... they shouldnt label the follower of one as bad just because they follow certain practice that is a NO-NO in their religion or spiritual practice ... In Jain Temples, I have rarely seen people being non-serious about their practices ... they make such a big deal about dravyas and the technique of pooja ... but in other religions, it is not a big deal ... for example there are some Zen practices where the only religion is to laugh ... that's it ... now for these people, Jain's will look stupid ... Just as "fuck and the 4th chamber" becomes important for some people ... and in the similar vein, people that follow Krnsa are perfectly OK with the idea of Krsna stealing 25000 wives ... and these are the same people who are also with Ram leaving his own wife Sita for no apparent reason whatsoever ... I would still say, Ram's life was his personal matter just as Krsna's life is ... We cannot make sense of people's actions unless and until we are them (not just by being in their shoes) ... I have at times mistaken two people holding hands as being couples only to realize that they are good friends and at times even brothers and sisters ... We never know may be those were not 25000 wives, those were 25000 sisters to Krsna ... who knows! ... people have interpreted and we have blindly cited them as if we were present at that time as Krsna or Ram ...

chitrala

January 26th, 2008, 02:51 PM

devil and god are all one and the same ... It's people's way of labeling misfortunes on someone and fortunes on someone else ... Just for a moment, feel that there is no Creator ... this Universe has existed eternally and will exists eternally ... you will be surprised, that how vulnerable this feeling will make you ... because now there is no-one to blame for things one doesnt like ...
I don't know about Devil....one incomprehensibility is enough for me right now.....yes I have felt that vulnerability, helplessness and insignificance...

Well, humans can be labeled as parasites on this existence as well ... you should take a day off and see that you dont label anyone anything ... accept everything as it is ... It works! I have tried ... Just one day ... forget the science, the biology, the religion, everything ... assume you know no-one and no one knows you ... You will feel vulnerable but then you will feel that everything is as it is supposed to be ... no-one asked you when you are to be brought to this world and no-one will not ask you again when do you want to go from this place ...
yes humans can be parasite as well....I feel vulnerable but but I never feel that everything is at its right place...many a things seem misfit to me...for starters I feel myself misfit in this world....

Who has said to you that God made this world for humans *only* No I didn't mean that...I was just showing the wastage and misallocation of resources:D

I say, look at all the wars and all the killing that were done in the name of religion ... the last I asked my mom was that: "When I was born, did God gave you a manual or a bible about how I have to be raised?" But yes everyone has one for the other ....
I read somewhere that the biggest problem with life is it doesnt come with a Handbook...so you are never sure what to do...everyone thinks that he/she is right.... otherwise if he keeps thinking like that knowing he's wrong....then there is something terribly wrong with the person...

Those are pseudo-religions ... real religion or dharma means to live in such freedom to so as to see oneself and not the impression of other people thoughts on oneself ... one meaning of dharma is "swarup" ... which some people label as "atman" ... It's just a label for linguistic purposes ...
All religions are pseudo.....religion comes with a set of rules...what you are saying is a personal quest....no holds barred kinda....i don't understand much about "atman" or "swaroop"....

Yes, you are absolutely right ... do you think you can do anything about that? Acceptance is the only way ...
No....but at least one can let one's child get mature before pushing religious stuffs in its mind...

Yes absolutely ... we respect the people who can lead the crowd .... who can do penannce and tapasya ... I say, if a beggar wants to get self-respect from the crowd, what he has to do, is to goto the temple and just starve himself in the name of God ... You will not believe the same people who were kicking him for alms will now rush to him considering him to be some sort of a saint ... we have some among Jains as well ...
Agreed:up:

On mundane level, we have lost the perspective to see things as they are ... so it makes sense ... It's difficult to rise above....especially when we dont have a reference point....

I think you just said the opposite just one paragraph back ... On the mundane level, when things dont make sense, we invent fate, righteousness, religion, God, devil, priests, sacrifices, suffering ... etc ...
Opposite?? I always said that I understand relativity but not enormity.....

there is nothing like survival of the fittest ... put the man in a cage where lion is and you will know that this law will fail most of the times even when man has the gun in his hand ... It is said that an ant can bring down an elephant .. just one ant ... so nature has its own beauty ... let's not put laws to understand its intricacies ...

This law will never fail....because whoever will win among two would be fitter...fitter to live in this world...That's why God's world is not a welfare state but a rule of jungle....an ant can bring down an elephant but what is the probabilty....If it is a just world then "Baagh and bakri will have a drink in same pub"

I heard a saying that if we wanted to create a beautiful woman, we can put the most beautiful nose, the most beautiful cheeks, best skin color, best pair of eyes and ears, sexy lips, and a good size forehead and you will be surprised that still does not create the most beautiful woman ... something is needed to magnify the beauty of the other ... and it is upto the observer to seek the beauty ... something that seems beautiful to you does not necessarily mean that it is beautiful to all ... Krnsa is one such example, he was all saaavla ... and still he looked handsome to His mother and Radha, his lover and not to all of the others ...
You are being racist now:D...Saanwla ppl can look awesome too....Look at Malaika Arora(lust be upon her);)....Awesome girl bbut saanwli...
yes you can't make a beautiful women like that....but we are not talking about beautiful world but just world....And beautiful world is not same as just world...

tantric_yogi

January 26th, 2008, 06:33 PM

Yes absolutely ... we respect the people who can lead the crowd .... who can do penannce and tapasya ... I say, if a beggar wants to get self-respect from the crowd, what he has to do, is to goto the temple and just starve himself in the name of God ... You will not believe the same people who were kicking him for alms will now rush to him considering him to be some sort of a saint ... we have some among Jains as well ...

Landyabhai ... I will come back to this later cause this is something Krantikaribha raised ... not now ... there is something which you said requires immediate condemnation.

Well, humans can be labeled as parasites

On mundane level,

... Krnsa is one such example, he was all saaavla ... and still he looked handsome to His mother and Radha, his lover and not to all of the others ...

Landyabhai ... what are you saying? Have you had one too many? This is descrimination and deserves to be condemned in strongest of the terms available in the dictionary. Are you implying Sanwala (dark men and women) are un-loved due to the skin of color? I cannot describe to you botherness I felt at your outrageousness.

I don't mind cause I turn chuna during winter but what about guests and our female members who are not color of chuna ... won't they be offended by such claims?

Landyabhai ... a brotherly advise ... you are a moderator of this site and your views reflect upon rest of us ordinary members and this site.

We must judge each other not based on color of skin but our brains and goodness.

Don't sawla people don't got no emotions same as chuna people? Don't sawla people got same red blood as chuna people? Lord Krisna is our god. He teach us many good things. Although he himself got 10,000 wives but he teaches us of happiness attained with one wife. So what if he was sawla, black, or blue.

For sure ... there is a mistake. You did not mean anything derogatory toward what I look like during summer. Please clarify your feelings toward us sawla and black men so we can proceed with topic at hand.

Thank you to you.

............................please.

echarcha

January 26th, 2008, 06:48 PM

tantric_yogi

January 26th, 2008, 06:58 PM

There is no such thing as enlightenment. But to answer your question - Imagine you are in an important meeting, making a presentation and you suddenly realise you need to fart! That is a moment of enlightenment which tells you that you should not have had that spicy burrito for lunch! You should have had atleast GasEx before eating that burrito.

I know exactly what you enlightening about ... I am in a similar situation so very often ... only difference being the disposal part of the body.

I can hold it for an hour or two to find the clean wall ... to jingle ... and just when I am five meter to zipper opening process is when bloody idiot starts to leak and soil the underwear.

I bloody cannot understand Baburao no more. Idiot ... you waited an hour and decided to give up on me just a meter from the spot. What is wrong with you. Don't I treat you well?

Cooldude

January 26th, 2008, 09:35 PM

Now I await Landyabhai and Amthalalaji, Coolbhai and few more. :D [B]Sutradarji obviously is too busy to bother.

So much to learn ...

:)

Enlightenment is what you get and realise a few years after getting married. You sit & fondly reminisce your days as a bachelor & bleakly hope to turn back the clock & relive those days. Zooming around on bikes. Going for second shows & meeting up with friends in pubs. Darn! I was better off then.

tantric_yogi

January 26th, 2008, 10:24 PM

Enlightenment is what you get and realise a few years after getting married. You sit & fondly reminisce your days as a bachelor & bleakly hope to turn back the clock & relive those days. Zooming around on bikes. Going for second shows & meeting up with friends in pubs. Darn! I was better off then.

that no enlightenment ... that realisation filled with remorse and regretment.

krantikari

January 27th, 2008, 12:44 AM

eggzhacktly ... I have said that in an earlier post ... interpretations only ...

Sorry to have missed it earlier. Glad I didnt miss this now :up: Cheers !!

I havent met Him ... I dont know ...

Not time yet I guess. You would'nt know while in your body.. ever. At least that's what scritpures tell you. There are thise who will tell you that they see God like they see you. For them... they are God themselves. If you wanna live in that world... you decide.

None of them did, including Krsna and Ram ... Krsna did not say, please write my BG sutras and follow it ... All of them have shared their realizations in words that ignorant like us can understand ... and note, none of them followed the popular religions that society at that time was following ... they followed their inner and others followed them (not their inner) and thus established a religion out of someone's inner understanding ...

Get your facts correct sweetheart... Ramayan and Mahabharat were commissioned work give to Valmiki and Bhrigu respectively. Bhagvad Gita is a chapter of Mahabharata. Now if you want to get into details of who commissioned those work... we can get into the details later...

and most of the times, someone's personal lives becomes a bible for others to recite every morning ... I think we have enough going in our lives to serve as our personal bibles ..

bouncer

I dont know ... I have read that Atisha was one of buddhist ascetics that tried to analyze both the vedas and what Buddha said i.e. Dhammapada ..

Buddhism does not decend from Vedas. Period.

That is your interpretation ... It's subjective and even if there is a crowd that can say it is like that ... it doesnt matter to me, cuz what I can claim to know is myself ... nothing beyond that ...

I am not Osho ... citing one thing is another and claiming that realizations are the same as citations is different altogether ... I am not looking for something that we discussed earlier "samanway-waad" or in English "common teachings across all religions" ... otherwise that by itself will become another religion ... that has happened to Jains ... they have formed divisions based on whether Mahaveer was nude when He got enlightened or whether He had all his belongings with Him ...

Rajneesh seldem said something by himself. He simply quoted things from different sources. Not even just from Buddhim texts.

Just because Buddha talks about something as basic as sex doesnt mean that He is into it ... I dont think words are important ... because they are used to convey things that are open to the interpretation of the listener ... fuck is one such word ... I dont know why it has become important in anybody's pursuit toward the truth ...

I didn't mean Lord Buddha the God. I mean the mortal 'Bhagwan' Rajneesh. He didn't even bother to change the names in his Plagiarism. click link below:

you will enjoy this rajneesh link. (http://www.youtube.com/v/6D7rWLzloOI)

Tantu ji... you too will enjoy. nothing new same thing you must have heard zillion places elsewhere.

And I am sure that will not reverse the changes in my nature ... People get pissed because some team screwed up in the game and these same people then curse the team and also elevate the team if it wins ... I dont think, one should be so easily amenable to changes just because there is some holocaust chamber in some ashram ... People have done much worse to themselves and to others ...

Kya Bolta hai Bawa !! Kuch to samajh me aana mangta naa !! "Holocaust chamber"... well "Orgy" is more the word sir.

I dont care ... if they continue or not ... the idea is a dharm should let people accept themselves as they are ... they shouldnt label the follower of one as bad just because they follow certain practice that is a NO-NO in their religion or spiritual practice ... In Jain Temples, I have rarely seen people being non-serious about their practices ... they make such a big deal about dravyas and the technique of pooja ... but in other religions, it is not a big deal ... for example there are some Zen practices where the only religion is to laugh ... that's it ... now for these people, Jain's will look stupid ... Just as "fuck and the 4th chamber" becomes important for some people ... and in the similar vein, people that follow Krnsa are perfectly OK with the idea of Krsna stealing 25000 wives ... and these are the same people who are also with Ram leaving his own wife Sita for no apparent reason whatsoever ... I would still say, Ram's life was his personal matter just as Krsna's life is ... We cannot make sense of people's actions unless and until we are them (not just by being in their shoes) ... I have at times mistaken two people holding hands as being couples only to realize that they are good friends and at times even brothers and sisters ... We never know may be those were not 25000 wives, those were 25000 sisters to Krsna ... who knows! ... people have interpreted and we have blindly cited them as if we were present at that time as Krsna or Ram ...
You must enter 4th chamber ... you know all pratyaksh there... you'll be really enlightened. About Krishna and his wives.... Well... the entire universe is his. why talk about mearly 25000 or ever 25000000000 ?!! You really love to bring stuff out of context to make it offensive. And Ram leaving Sita for no apparant reason... you'll have to go throught the text for that. Not mearly browse over it. That won't work. I have done my studies... even Bodhisattva. Not talking in air at all sir... if needed I can demonstrate my knowledge sometime.. Abhi mood nahi hai !!

landyaBhai

January 27th, 2008, 09:49 AM

. if needed I can demonstrate my knowledge sometime.. Abhi mood nahi hai !!

me neither, I am not interested in demonstrating the knowledge...

will speak from my realizations ... I have a few but I think even those are not mine ....

landyaBhai

January 27th, 2008, 10:25 AM

Sorry to have missed it earlier. Glad I didnt miss this now :up: Cheers !!

thanks!

Not time yet I guess. You would'nt know while in your body.. ever. At least that's what scritpures tell you. There are thise who will tell you that they see God like they see you. For them... they are God themselves. If you wanna live in that world... you decide.

Some people live life by books claimed to be scriptures that have been written by people whom we have not seen ... Some people choose to life life as it is without any scriptures and trust their inner rather than the outer ... which supposedly is generalized for everyone by scriptures that become religions ...

As I see from here, I have seen people killing and hating each other for no apparent reason except taht they were followers of some religion ... my own mother and grandmother dont drink water from a friend who is a muslim ... weird ... religions supposed to make people live in harmony and have not achieved even that ...

Get your facts correct sweetheart... Ramayan and Mahabharat were commissioned work give to Valmiki and Bhrigu respectively. Bhagvad Gita is a chapter of Mahabharata. Now if you want to get into details of who commissioned those work... we can get into the details later...

Yes, it was commissioned, we both were there in the committee of the commissioners, it's just that I was drunk by the free alcohol that they had in the lunch ... and you were not ... You seem to know Valmiki & Bhrigu as if they were langotya's :D

Have you seen, how people when they are in committees like this doing some sort of commisioning end up doing their personal/or what the society have expected them to come up with ... History is filled with such examples ... I wouldnt be surprised, if my grand-children start believing that Mahatma Gandhi was an avatar of Vishnu ...

Buddhism does not decend from Vedas. Period.

Does it really matter who descends from whom or not ...

and where do vedas descend from ... As I see they are all coming from humans and they came from monkeys and we worship one such Monkey as God ... And guess what, here we dont look at the form of His mortal body ... we dont even look as to which race he belongs to ... We worship his absolute devotion and trust to the Lord or his friend ...

Look now, we look at race, we look at color ... I myself have fallen into that trap where looking at a black person, I thought may be he is a mugger ... It seems we tend to worship living entities only when they are mortally gone .... when they are physically there in this world, we dont seem to care ... we complain, look he is talking about FUCK ... look he has *hypnotic* eyes ... look He is saawla and he has taken 250000 wives ...

I look at my parents and other Jain followers and they seem to be absolutely convinced that Krsna is in the 7th Hell, just because some interpretation of Jainism says that he will be so until the end of this kaal and after that He will be promoted to the Tirthankara position ... seems to me we have the same set of commisioners who are watching who should be promoted and who should not be ... and these are the same commisioners who are said to be some sort of an avatar of God ... and think about it, if it is like that (ofcourse it isnt), then they dont have the "Sat-Chit-Ananda-Vigraha quality in them ... they are still obsessed/involved in these worldly matters ...

I used to have a friend who used to follow Lord Hanuman ... and guess what He chose to follow ... Brahmacharya ... why? because Lord Hanumaan was a brahmacharya ... People just tend to select the outer because it seems to them that that will lead to the inner ... Hanumaan never said, my devotion was because I was celibate ...People are not even devoted to their parents in their old age ... but yes they will do all the Hanumaan Chalisa and be a celibate ... and you and me are very well aware how celibacy in India works ... outside it seems all good ... inner is in turmoil ...

Rajneesh seldem said something by himself. He simply quoted things from different sources. Not even just from Buddhim texts.

You seem to have read everything from Rajneesh, have cross-referenced and also made a catalog of where things are coming from ... This is what we all have been doing ... a mental exercise ... and then arguing that our's is better and in heaven the God will prefer us over other non-followers for salvation et. al ...

Let's not worry about knowledge ... the outer ... let the message sink in ... if it hasnt done in any change in you, then dont blame the message .... may be it was not for you ...

I didn't mean Lord Buddha the God. I mean the mortal 'Bhagwan' Rajneesh

Mortal as body ... atleast you have the knowledge about it from scriptures ... I hope you havent forgotten ...

. He didn't even bother to change the names in his Plagiarism. click link below:

you will enjoy this rajneesh link. (http://www.youtube.com/v/6D7rWLzloOI)

Yes, please cite who else has talked about FUCK in the year 1983 and onwards ... Please do let us know who else was even non-serious about talking like that ... At that time, I feel (I may be wroing) we were still grappling with baal-vivah, sati, and "Ishwar-Allah Tero Naam ..." etc .. Lord Shiva has talked about Sex in Vigyaan Bhairav Tantra as a sort of prayer ... Will you like to ask Him, why is it necessary?, Will you complain that no, why sex why not breathing, why not eating etc ... As I see, we seem to be lost in uniqueness of teachings rather than realizing the inner uniqueness ...

Kya Bolta hai Bawa !! Kuch to samajh me aana mangta naa !! "Holocaust chamber"... well "Orgy" is more the word sir.

Atleast, they did sex, what is wrong with that ... Khujrao temple has the same thing ... they are not killing each other ... they are exploring their sex energies consensually ...

About Krishna and his wives.... Well... the entire universe is his.

Have you asked Him that this Universe is His? Because as I see from reality half of it has been taken over by Russia, Canada, and America ...

why talk about mearly 25000 or ever 25000000000 ?!! You really love to bring stuff out of context to make it offensive.

No, I am not bring out anything ... It is said "in the scriptures" that they were wives married to some other person other than Krsna ...

And Ram leaving Sita for no apparant reason... you'll have to go throught the text for that. Not mearly browse over it. That won't work.

Ram left Sita out of the worry that "He, the Lord himself (not the poorna avatar, ofcourse)" was not sure that Sita was pure and even after Sita passed the test by going under the Fire, He rejected her because of the worry about what the fucking samaj will say about her ... Sita pleaded but He did not listen ... that is the reason why his life-story is called "Ram-Charitra-Manas" because Ram followed everything that was acceptable to society thus keeping His charitra intact at the cost of leaving His wife sita ... Krsna's life on the other hand is not called "Krsna-Charitra-Manas" ... it is called "Raas-Leela" ... He is the poorna-avatar ... So He seems to care a shit about what the society believes in ... He did not keep his own promise in the war when he got some lady dressed as a man ... And on the other hand Ram seems to follow the raghukool reet ... "Raghukul reet sadha chali aaayi ... praan jaaye par vachan naa jaaye" .... As I see, Krsna lived in total freedom, did what He pleased to do ... And Ram was bound to his traditions ...

Reading scriptures is different ... everyone can become a parrot ... that has happened to our religious progress ... Nobody teaches to accept life as it is ... live life in total freedom without any biases ... even when the word fuck or the activity of sex is etched outside the temple of khujrao ...

2gud

January 27th, 2008, 11:05 AM

Enlightenment is what you get every time at the end of a great long session of sex...

tantric_yogi

January 27th, 2008, 05:02 PM

Enlightenment is what you get every time at the end of a great long session of sex...

:D

Termibhai also think sem as you. I agree completely shat pritishat. What you two speak is true. :) Some enlightenment ... some (edit) love. But to accept your version is to accept that all humans irrespective of rank and the file have innate powers of which most of us remain unaware but its there ... the (edit) making love kind of enlightenment ... simply an attempt to harness the energies raised during the activity. Noble ... very noble.

Now ... 2Gudbhai ... green behind the ears ... I know what you two thinking ... "Wow ... really ... I should do it more often ... (edit) make love, fun and enlightenment all in one go ... drive through ... who wants to go atop the hill and starve for 100 years ... I would rather prefer (edit) making love to (edit) ancient wisdom as being discussed by Landyabhai and Krantikaribhai."

Not so fast ... not so simple ... enlightenment (edit) making love way robes you of the pleasures of the act ... because ... enjoyment of (edit) making love with your partner with intention of (edit) orgasm becomes NOT the goal ... merely a vehicle, part of the technique to achieve and receive enlightenment. Your partner need to be part of it as well and if she can ... results will blow you away. Someone who has never practiced got not a bloody clue how strong experience it can be.

I admit ... Landyabhai and Krantikaribhai are discussing knowledge accumulated over thousands of years. But I cannot subscribe to what I cannot understand. I cannot admit to understand what is logically unsound. I cannot pretend to understand what in unverifiable. There ... I confessed and I feel better ... I don’t understand their kind of discussion nor enlightenment. I like western version because I can understand ... enlightenment simply by the means of reasons and the logics scrutinizing previously accepted doctrines and the traditions. So simple and makes sense.

Problem I have with enlightenment ... as expounded by our two esteemed members is not that it makes no sense or that its rubbish cause I don't understand ... but my own belief that body, the mind, and the soul form a bond ... this bond unites the three (body, mind, and the soul) in to a matrix which in turn makes up all of our "human experiences". Break the bond ... remove any one of the three integral parts ... and you are inevitably bound to live a life of unfulfillment and dissatisfaction ... no amount of prayers, meditations or methods as espoused by our two esteemed members can bring any resolve ... forget enlightenment.

I cannot see how starving your body, depriving your physical self of sensory pleasures, or punishing it can result in any (edit) kind of enlightenment. Recall the the scene from the movie ... The DaVinci Code ... young Christian guy practicing mortification ... beating his physical-self in to a pulp? So how were actions of Lord Budhha and that of Rishis and Munis and the great saints and the sages any different?

Today, when emotions and consciousness can be described merely result of chemical reactions and imbalances within the body ... accepting (edit) ancient wisdom "version" of enlightenment ... to put it simply ... is illogical and unsound. I cannot believe people who wrote those books lived a life of happiness or fulfillment ... not possible ... more like misery.

edit/add: Landyabhai and Krantikaribhai ... I wrote above with utmost respect. Hopefully you two will set me straight. I am enlightened at the prospects. :D