Islam and world conquest..

[2gud]

Mohammed urged the believers to go and spread Islam all over the world through sword and conquest. And he said they will be rewarded with riches and status. And it turned out to be quite true.

Within the turn of a century 750 - 850 AD Islam spread over to as afar as Persia and Central Asia and almost all of North Africa and touching the coasts of Spain. And indeed were the Arabs who previously were poor nomadic tribes were bestowed with the riches they plundered. This continued even afterwards through the successful conquests of Mongols after they embraced Islam - notable among them Chengis Khan and Tamarlane. By late 1500 AD Islam even spread to India and South East Asia. Not to speak about the tremendous success of the greatest empire of modern era spread again by the sword of Suleyman the Magnificient - Ottoman empire which stretched all the way from middle east to central Asia, comprised of most of Easter Europe and Balkans in its fold.

The beilevers certainly seem to have enjoyed a Golden Era for more than a thousand years. But now they seem to have lost their golden touch. Today almost all Islamic republics in middles east are reeling under monarchies and dictatorships. Their economies and politics are shaped by US policies. Israel defeated them time and again and occupied large tracts of their land.

Seems like their God is unhappy with them. What do you guys say...

[brahmchari]

Money Corrupts.

[Sane Less]

Tugdu pai, I don't know what you are trying to highlight here. In all those years when the religion of peace conquered the world, the common man of peace was rewarded with wealth:confused: If not, how was then different than now. Remember, history is never written to include the common man, it is only about important men and events.

Yes, the religion of peace rewarded those who spread it throughout the world by sword. Both by loot and women. But the common man would not have gotten those riches, either of them :) The common man always defaults to fate, blames his luck. And that does not appear in history.

Islam today is still reeling with success and desire (under monarchies and dictatorships). You think they care about what is happening to the common man of peace. The common man of peace is out taking a morcha against cartoons and breaking buildings and killing other common men. And this has been happening for all time. And the god of peace is always happy about this :D

[Sane Less]

...pushing it up...

[echarcha]

I am not even going to step in here... I think we have had enough of this topic. I mean I know what Islamofascism is and I know that the new Hitler has a Koran in one hand and a bomb in the other.

Just that, its getting quite stale now. We all know what these fez caps are upto. We discuss and bash enough.. Chalo lets do something else like coming up with a nice song like Gaand Mein Danda.

[dhurandhar]

Mohammed urged the believers to go and spread Islam all over the world through sword and conquest. And he said they will be rewarded with riches and status. And it turned out to be quite true.

Within the turn of a century 750 - 850 AD Islam spread over to as afar as Persia and Central Asia and almost all of North Africa and touching the coasts of Spain. And indeed were the Arabs who previously were poor nomadic tribes were bestowed with the riches they plundered. This continued even afterwards through the successful conquests of Mongols after they embraced Islam - notable among them Chengis Khan and Tamarlane. By late 1500 AD Islam even spread to India and South East Asia. Not to speak about the tremendous success of the greatest empire of modern era spread again by the sword of Suleyman the Magnificient - Ottoman empire which stretched all the way from middle east to central Asia, comprised of most of Easter Europe and Balkans in its fold.

The beilevers certainly seem to have enjoyed a Golden Era for more than a thousand years. But now they seem to have lost their golden touch. Today almost all Islamic republics in middles east are reeling under monarchies and dictatorships. Their economies and politics are shaped by US policies. Israel defeated them time and again and occupied large tracts of their land.

Seems like their God is unhappy with them. What do you guys say...

I am surprised that even you are falling prey to some misinformation:D

If it were not for Mongols, Islam would have reached Japan:D:D

Timur - i - Leng (Timur the lame, aka Tamerlane) was the major humbling force for Ottoman Turks...he captured their king, Bayazid Yildirim (Bayazid the Thunderbolt, who was Europe's nightmare) and had his wife serve as a nude barmaid....while Bayazid was made to sit as a "guest" in the celebration of victory watching helplessly as his wife was serving wine to his enemies in nude:D.

[BadnaamGaandu]

Timur - i - Leng (Timur the lame, aka Tamerlane) was the major humbling force for Ottoman Turks...he captured their king, Bayazid Yildirim (Bayazid the Thunderbolt, who was Europe's nightmare) and had his wife serve as a nude barmaid....while Bayazid was made to sit as a "guest" in the celebration of victory watching helplessly as his wife was serving wine to his enemies in nude:D.

Any references for this treasure of a remark?

[dhurandhar]

Any references for this treasure of a remark?

Please search the echarcha archives with the search word, "Timur".

Also, somewhat more exaggerated view (the circus animal story):

http://www.cyberus.ca/~stridon.press/antbar1.shtml

On 1402.07.28, at Chubuk Plain north of Ankara, in the Battle of Ankara, the Ottoman coalition under Sultan Bayezid faced the Mongols under Timur the Lame. A huge multinational army under Timur's brilliant leadership routed the Ottomans. Servian contingents under Stevan and Vuk Lazarevic and Djuradj and Grgur Brankovic fought bravely in a losing cause. Bayezid and his favorite female companion and wife - Lazar's daughter Despina Olivera were captured by Timur. For months Bayezid had been paraded in chains as a circus animal, while Despina served as a nude bartender to Timur. On 1403.03.08, heartbroken Bayezid killed himself.

[dhurandhar]

Timur
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Timur ( Chagatai Turkish: تیمور) (also known as Temur, Taimur, Timur Lenk, Timur i Leng, Tamerlane, Tamburlaine, or Taimur-e-Lang, which translates to Timur the Lame, as he was lame after sustaining an injury in battle) (1336–February 1405) was a great 14th century Turkic-Mongol conqueror, ruler of the Timurid Empire (1370–1405) in Central Asia, and founder of the Timurid dynasty, which survived until 1506. The word Timur or Tumur means iron in the Chagatai language.

Contents [hide]
1 Early life
2 Military leader
3 Rise to power
4 Period of expansion
5 India
6 Last campaigns and death
7 Contributions to the arts
8 References
9 Exhumation
10 Fiction
11 External links



[edit]
Early life
Timur was born in Transoxania, near Kesh, in an area now better known as Shahr-e Sabz, 'the green city,' situated some 50 miles south of Samarkand in modern Uzbekistan.

Timur placed much of his early legitimacy on his genealogical roots to the great Mongol conqueror, Chinggis or Genghis Khan. What is known is that he was descended from the Mongol invaders who initially pushed westwards after the establishment of the Mongol empire.

His father Teragai was head of the tribe of Barlas, a nomadic Turkic-speaking tribe of Mongol origin that traced its origin to the Mongol commander Qarachar Barlas. Teragai was the great-grandson of Karachar Nevian and, distinguished among his fellow-clansmen as the first convert to Islam, Teragai might have assumed the high military rank which fell to him by right of inheritance; but like his father Burkul he preferred a life of retirement and study.

Under the paternal eye the education of young Timur was such that at the age of twenty he had not only become an adept in manly outdoor exercises but had earned the reputation of being an attentive reader of the Qur'an. Like his father, Timur was a Muslim and seems to have been influenced by Naqshbandi Sufism. At this period, if we may credit the Memoirs (Malfu'at), he exhibited proofs of a tender and sympathetic nature.

[edit]
Military leader

Map of the Timurid Empire in 1405About 1358, however, he came before the world as a military leader. Timur took part in campaigns in Transoxania with the khan of Chagatai, a descendant of Genghis Khan. His career for the next ten or eleven years may be thus briefly summarized from the Memoirs. Allying himself both in cause and by family connection with Kurgan, the dethroner and destroyer of Volga Bulgaria, he was to invade Khorasan at the head of a thousand horsemen. This was the second warlike expedition in which he was the chief actor, and the accomplishment of its objects led to further operations, among them the subjection of Khwarizm and Urganj.

After the murder of Kurgan the contentions which arose among the many claimants to sovereign power were halted by the invasion of Tughluk Timur of Kashgar, another descendant of Genghis Khan. Timur was dispatched on a mission to the invader's camp, the result of which was his own appointment to the head of his own tribe, the Barlas, in place of its former leader Hajji Beg.

Timur's father had retired to a Muslim monastery, telling his son that "the world is a beautiful vase filled with scorpions." However, Timur was a man of action who did not follow the same path.

The exigencies of Timur's quasi-sovereign position compelled him to have recourse to his formidable patron, whose reappearance on the banks of the Syr Darya created a consternation not easily allayed. The Barlas were taken from Timur and entrusted to a son of Tughluk, along with the rest of Mawarannahr; but he was defeated in battle by the bold warrior he had replaced at the head of a numerically far inferior force.

[edit]
Rise to power

Statue of Timur in Tashkent, UzbekistanTughluk's death facilitated the work of reconquest, and a few years of perseverance and energy sufficed for its accomplishment, as well as for the addition of a vast extent of territory. During this period Timur and his brother-in-law Husayn, at first fellow fugitives and wanderers in joint adventures full of interest and romance, became rivals and antagonists. At the close of 1369 Husayn was assassinated and Timur, having been formally proclaimed sovereign at Balkh, mounted the throne at Samarkand, the capital of his dominions.

It is notable that Timur never claimed for himself the title of khan, styling himself amir and acting in the name of the Chagatai ruler of Transoxania. Timur was a military genius but lacking in political sense. He tended not to leave a government apparatus behind in lands he conquered, and was often faced with the need to conquer such lands again after inevitable rebellions.

[edit]
Period of expansion
The next 35 years, until his death, Timur spent in various wars and expeditions. Timur not only consolidated his rule at home by the subjugation of his foes, but sought extension of territory by encroachments upon the lands of foreign potentates. His conquests to the west and north-west led him among the Mongols of the Caspian Sea and to the banks of the Ural and the Volga. Conquests in the south and south-West encompassed almost every province in Persia, including Baghdad, Karbala and Kurdistan.

One of the most formidable of his opponents was Tokhtamysh who, after having been a refugee at the court of Timur, became ruler both of the eastern Kipchak and the Golden Horde and quarrelled with Timur over the possession of Khwarizm. Timur supported Tokhtamysh against Russians and Tokhtamysh, with armed support by Timur, invaded Russia and in 1382 captured Moscow. After the death of Abu Sa'id (1335), ruler of Ilkhanid Dynasty, there was a power vacuum in Persia. In 1383 Timur started military conquest of Persia. Timur captured Herat, Khorasan and all eastern Persia to 1385.

In the meantime, Tokhtamysh, now khan of the Golden Horde, turned against Timur and invaded Azerbaijan in 1385. It was not until 1395, in the battle of Kur River, that the power of Tokhtamysh was finally broken, after a titanic struggle between the two monarchs. In this war, Timur led an army of over 100,000 men north for about 500 miles into the uninhabited steppe, then west about 1000 miles, advancing in a front more than 10 miles wide. Tokhtamysh's army finally was cornered against the Volga River near Orenburg and destroyed. During this march, Timur's army got far enough north to be in a region of very long summer days, causing complaints by his Muslim soldiers about keeping a long schedule of prayers in such northern regions. Timur led a second campaign against Tokhtamysh via an easier route through the Caucasus, and Timur destroyed Sarai and Astrakhan, and wrecked the Golden Horde's economy based on Silk Road trade.

[edit]
India
In 1398 Timur, informed about civil war in India (started in 1394), began war against Muslim ruler in Delhi. He crossed the Indus River on September 24. Capture of towns and villages were accompanied, very often, with their destruction and the massacre of the inhabitants. Army of Mahmud Toghluk were easy defeated and destroyed on December 17. Timur entered in Delhi and the city was sacked, destroyed and left in a mass of ruins. Before the battle for Delhi, Timur executed more than 50,000 captives, and after the sack of Delhi almost all inhabitants that were not killed were captured and deported. It is said that the devastation of Delhi was not Timur's intent, but that his horde could simply not be controlled after entering the city gates. However, some historians have stated that he told his armies they could have free reign over Delhi.

Timur left Delhi probably in January 1399. In April 1399 Timur was back in his own capital beyond the Oxus (Amu Darya). An immense quantity of spoil was conveyed away from India. According to Ruy Gonzáles de Clavijo, ninety captured elephants were employed merely to carry stones from certain quarries to enable the conqueror to erect a mosque at Samarkand.

[edit]
Last campaigns and death
Before the end of 1399 Timur started war against the Bayezid I, sultan of Ottoman Empire, and Mamluk sultan of Egypt. Bayezid began to annexed territory of Turkmen and Muslim rulers in Anatolia. Timur claimed suzeiranity over Turkmen rulers and they took refuge to Timur. Timur invaded Syria, and Aleppo was sacked. After he defeated Mamluks army of Egyptian sultan, Damascus was also captured. City was massacred, but the artisans were deported to Samarkand, Due to this campaigns Tamarlane was considered publicly as an enemy of Islam .

He invaded Baghdad in June 1401. After the capture of the city, 20,000 of its citizens were massacred. Timur ordered that every soldier should return with at least two severed human heads to show. In 1402, Timur invaded Anatolia and defeated Bayezid I in the Battle of Ankara. Bayezid was captured in battle and subsequently died in captivity. Timur also captured Smyrna from the Knights of Rhodes. This was his last campaign.

In 1368 the Ming had driven the Mongols out of China. The first Ming Emperor demanded, and got, many Central Asian states to pay homage to China as the political heirs to the former House of Kublai. Timur more than once sent to the Ming Government gifts which could have passed as tribute, at first not daring to defy the economic and military might of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence that he was in fact a secret Ming vassal.

Timur wished to restore the Mongol Empire, and eventually planned to conquer China. In December 1404 Timur started military expeditions against the Ming Dynasty of China, but the old warrior was attacked by fever and plague when encamped on the farther side of the Sihon (Syr-Daria) and died at Atrar (Otrar) in mid-February 1405. His scouts explored Mongolia before his death, and the writing they carved on trees in Mongolia's mountains could still be seen even in the 20th Century.

Of Timur's four sons, two (Jahangir and Umar Shaykh) predeceased him. His third son, Miran Shah, died soon after Timur, leaving the youngest son, Shah Rukh. Although his designated successor was his grandson Pir Muhammad b. Jahangir, Timur was ultimately succeeded in power by his son Shah Rukh. His descendant Babur founded the Mughal Empire and ruled over most of North India. Babur's descendants, Akbar, Jahangir, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb, expanded the Mughal Empire to most of the Indian subcontinent along with parts of Afghanistan.

Markham, in his introduction to the narrative of Clavijo's embassy, states that his body "was embalmed with musk and rose water, wrapped in linen, laid in an ebony coffin and sent to Samarkand, where it was buried." Timur had carried his victorious arms on one side from the Irtish and the Volga to the Persian Gulf and on the other from the Hellespont to the Ganges River.

[edit]
Contributions to the arts
Timur became widely known as a patron to the arts. Much of the architecture he commissioned still stands in Samarqand, now in present-day Uzbekistan.

According to legend, Omar Aqta, Timur's court calligrapher, transcribed the Qur'an using letters so small that the entire text of the book fit on a signet ring. Omar also is said to have created a Qur'an so large that a wheelbarrow was required to transport it. Folios of what is probably this larger Qur'an have been found, written in gold lettering on huge pages.

[edit]
References
Timur's generally recognized biographers are Ali Vazdl, commonly called Sharif ud-Din, author of the Persian Zafarnãma, translated by Peter de la Croix in 1722, and from French into English by J. Darby in the following year; and Ahmed ibis Mohammed ibn Abdallah, al-Dimashici, al-Ajrni, commonly called Ahmed Ibn Arabshah (Arab Shah meaning emperor of the Arabs), author of the Arabic Afaibu al-Makhlnkat, translated by the Dutch Orientalist Colitis in 1636. In the work of the former, as Sir William Jones remarks, "the Tatarian conqueror is represented as a liberal, benevolent and illustrious prince", in that of the latter he is "deformed and impious, of a low birth and detestable principles." But the favourable account was written under the personal supervision of Timur's grandson, Ibrahim, while the other was the production of his direst enemy.

Among less reputed biographies or materials for biography may be mentioned a second Zafarnãma, by ?MavlgnA NjzSmu? ad-Din Shanab Ghãzãni (Nizãm Shami), stated to be the earliest known history of Timur, and the only one written in his lifetime. Vol I of the ?Matla?u?s-Sa?dasn??, a choice Persian manuscript work of 1495. Timur's purported autobiography, the Tuzuk-i Temur (Institutes of Temur) is a later fabrication although most of the historical facts are accurate.

[edit]
Exhumation
Timur's body was exhumed from his tomb in 1941 by the Russian anthropologist Mikhail M. Gerasimov. He found that Timur's facial characteristics conformed to that of Mongoloid features, supporting Timur's notion, in some part, that he was descended from Genghis Khan. He also confirmed Timur's lameness. Gerasimov was able to reconstruct the likeness of Timur from his skull.

Famously, a curse has been attached to opening Timur's tomb. In the year of Timur's death, a sign was carved in Timur's tomb warning that whoever would dare disturb the tomb would bring demons of war onto his land. Gerasimov's expedition opened the tomb on June 19, 1941. Operation Barbarossa, which claimed more lives than any other war in history, began three days later on June 22, 1941. The legend of Tamerlane's curse features prominently in the 2006 Russian blockbuster Day Watch.

[edit]
Fiction
Timur Lenk was the subject of two plays (Tamburlaine the Great, Parts I and II) by English playwright Christopher Marlowe.

Bob Bainborough portrayed Tamerlane in an episode of History Bites.

George Frideric Handel made Timur Lenk the title character of his Tamerlano (HWV 18), an Italian language opera based on the 1675 play Tamerlan ou la mort de Bajazet by Jacques Pradon.

Edgar Allan Poe's first published work was a poem entitled "Tamerlaine".

German-Jewish writer and social critic Kurt Tucholsky, under the pen name of Theobald Tiger, wrote the lyrics to a cabaret song about Timur in 1922, with the lines

Mir ist heut so nach Tamerlan zu Mut -
ein kleines bisschen Tamerlan wär gut
which roughly translates as "I feel like Tamerlan today, a little bit of Tamerlane would be nice." The song was an allegory about German militarism, as well as a wry commentary on German fears of "Bolshevism" and the "Asiatic hordes from the East."

He is referred to in the poem "The City of Orange Trees" by Dick Davis. The poem is about an opulent society and the cyclic nature of zeal, prosperity and demise in civilisation.

Tamerlane features prominently in the short story Lord of Samarcand by Robert E. Howard which features a completely fictional account of his last campaign and death.
In the Nintendo Gamecube video game Eternal Darkness, Pious Augustus recites a speech echoing Tamerlane's actual speech after sacking Damascus, implying that Tamerlane was the masked warlord.

[2gud]

If it were not for Mongols, Islam would have reached Japan:D:D


Tu bahot sochta hai, thoda buddhi bhi lagaya karr.. why the fukk will people in those time care about Japan man when Persia, Ottoman empire, India and China were on platter! That is exactly what they did, they conquered and looted all these places. And moreover Islam spread in India not due to early Arab invasions but more due to Timur's and Chenghis khans successors - the mughals.

[dhurandhar]

Tu bahot sochta hai, thoda buddhi bhi lagaya karr.. why the fukk will people in those time care about Japan man when Persia, Ottoman empire, India and China were on platter! That is exactly what they did, they conquered and looted all these places. And moreover Islam spread in India not due to early Arab invasions but more due to Timur's and Chenghis khans successors - the mughals.

you think too shallow....and these days...I am afraid, IDIOTIC:D...China never fell to Muslims...Sinkiang was not part of China until Chinese grabbed it before grabbing Tibet:D

For heaven's sake, use common sense...if Mongols converted to Islam how come Mongolia is Buddhist?

Islam spread in India due to Turks....Mughals only ruled on the existing Islamic infrastructure left in place by previously weakened Muslim sultans.

Timur was an opportunist...not Islamic. He used Islam to wreak havoc on Arabs:D

[2gud]

you think too shallow....and these days...I am afraid, IDIOTIC:D...China never fell to Muslims...Sinkiang was not part of China until Chinese grabbed it before grabbing Tibet:D

For heaven's sake, use common sense...if Mongols converted to Islam how come Mongolia is Buddhist?

Islam spread in India due to Turks....Mughals only ruled on the existing Islamic infrastructure left in place by previously weakened Muslim sultans.

Timur was an opportunist...not Islamic. He used Islam to wreak havoc on Arabs:D
Don't put words in my mouth where did I say Mongols were muslims, that is ridiculous. If at all I meant something then it is that the mongols who went on a conquering spree, converted to Islam when they came to Arab contact. Whether Timur's converting to Islam helped him to conquer more is the question of this debate - I leave it open.

I don't know whats that you are smoking - Genghis khan conquered what now is northern part of China in one of the most bloodiest war of times and his grandson Kublai Khan extended the empire deep into southern China destroying the Song dynasty. He also set up a strong administrative setup over almost whole of China. Ok I find a reference (http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h11mon.htm) for you.. Go through it before you make comments like China was never conquered by mongols.:rolleyes::D

See Mongolia during the time of Genghis khan was tribal and shamanistic and it retained this culture. It was only when some mongols like Timur and other came in touch with Arabs and Persians did they embrace Islam. Moreover this paragraph from the above reference clearly explains why Mongolia retained buddhism...

Quote:
In Mongol society, meanwhile, women had more independence than those in Islamic and western societies. Mongol women could own property and pursue litigation. And they served as auxiliaries in the military, remaining hidden in the encampment during combat but joining the fight if an emergency made that necessary. Under Mongke's rule, clergymen and monks were exempted from labor on community projects. Under Mongke as under Genghis Khan, people were allowed to worship as they chose. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity flourished. And, in 1252, Mongke's regime made official the worship of Genghis Khan.

Bolney sey pehle thode funde clear karle bacche...

BTW I don't mean anything personal here boss. Just debating, no personal grudges whatsoever and any sarcastic remarks I use just as a bullwark against your own :up::D:D

[2gud]

Islam spread in India due to Turks....



You are wrong again... Conversion to Islam in India happened in waves.. Earliest of conversions took place in 11th century when Arabs conquered what is now parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. But most of conversion took place in what is currently India only after the Mughals came in from their Afghan strong hold of Kabul-Qandahar.

I'm only talking of majority conversions before you jump to further conclusions and putting words in my mouth.

[dhurandhar]

Don't put words in my mouth where did I say Mongols were muslims, that is ridiculous. If at all I meant something then it is that the mongols who went on a conquering spree, converted to Islam when they came to Arab contact. Whether Timur's converting to Islam helped him to conquer more is the question of this debate - I leave it open.

I don't know whats that you are smoking - Genghis khan conquered what now is northern part of China in one of the most bloodiest war of times and his grandson Kublai Khan extended the empire deep into southern China destroying the Song dynasty. He also set up a strong administrative setup over almost whole of China. Ok I find a reference (http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h11mon.htm) for you.. Go through it before you make comments like China was never conquered by mongols.:rolleyes::D

See Mongolia during the time of Genghis khan was tribal and shamanistic and it retained this culture. It was only when some mongols like Timur and other came in touch with Arabs and Persians did they embrace Islam. Moreover this paragraph from the above reference clearly explains why Mongolia retained buddhism...

Quote:
In Mongol society, meanwhile, women had more independence than those in Islamic and western societies. Mongol women could own property and pursue litigation. And they served as auxiliaries in the military, remaining hidden in the encampment during combat but joining the fight if an emergency made that necessary. Under Mongke's rule, clergymen and monks were exempted from labor on community projects. Under Mongke as under Genghis Khan, people were allowed to worship as they chose. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity flourished. And, in 1252, Mongke's regime made official the worship of Genghis Khan.

Bolney sey pehle thode funde clear karle bacche...

BTW I don't mean anything personal here boss. Just debating, no personal grudges whatsoever and any sarcastic remarks I use just as a bullwark against your own :up::D:D

Before you start farting nonsense...please read YOUR remarks and MY remarks very carefully:D

Muslims never ruled China...get it into your thick skull...and it is because of Mongols that Muslims could not make much foray into China:D

Kublai Khan was NOT a muslim:D

Your debating is just too shoddy to begin with ....as you opened this thread with PURE NONSENSE...with no references/links whatsoever:D

[2gud]

And one more thing Kublai Khan did try to conquer Japan.

One important difference between Arabs in those times and earliest mongol invaders like Timur (who was recent converts) is that Arabs had an agenda and duty of spreading Islam and the word of God, whereas the later were more interested in conquering and plundering the riches of the people settled in plains.

[dhurandhar]

You are wrong again... Conversion to Islam in India happened in waves.. Earliest of conversions took place in 11th century when Arabs conquered what is now parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. But most of conversion took place in what is currently India only after the Mughals came in from their Afghan strong hold of Kabul-Qandahar.

I'm only talking of majority conversions before you jump to further conclusions and putting words in my mouth.

Provide links to support your BRAIN FARTS:D...I am sure I can provide you one too many to support mine:D

Arabs could not move past Sindh...Turks (recall the Slave dynasty that came via Ghori)

Alauddin Khalji was the major force that entrenched Islam in India...he had conquered as far as Bihar and as south as present day Tamilnadu while destroying and extorting tributes from loser kings:D

Majority of persecutions and FORCED conversions took place during era between Qutubuddin Aibak and Ibrahim Lodi (its a pretty vast span of time and comparable to Mughal reign)...Mughals were cowards but smart in that except for Aurangzeb most conversions were based on Bribe of Power/Money and therefore relatively peaceful:D

[dhurandhar]

And one more thing Kublai Khan did try to conquer Japan.

One important difference between Arabs in those times and earliest mongol invaders like Timur (who was recent converts) is that Arabs had an agenda and duty of spreading Islam and the word of God, whereas the later were more interested in conquering and plundering the riches of the people settled in plains.

Stop this IDIOCY....you are digressing from Islam...this thread is based on how Islam went about...not what Kublai Khan did to Japan:D

Hahaha....now you are making cowardly retreat...now suddenly Islam becomes non-plundering and Arabs have no regard for riches...its only the word of God they wanted to spread, although by force...what a JOKE you are making of yourself:D

[2gud]

In my first post I wanted to say about Timur (somehow Chenghis khan got into my typing as both of them are often associated) and whether his embracing Islam helped him with his successes. Now the topic has veered very wildly.

Did I say Kublai khan is a muslim?

And your saying that Islam was spread by Turks in India is like saying christianity in India was spread by Portuguese.

[2gud]

Stop this IDIOCY....you are digressing from Islam...this thread is based on how Islam went about...not what Kublai Khan did to Japan:D

Hahaha....now you are making cowardly retreat...now suddenly Islam becomes non-plundering and Arabs have no regard for riches...its only the word of God they wanted to spread, although by force...what a JOKE you are making of yourself:D

Again you are unnecessarily putting words in my mouth. Your purpose it seems is just to prove your point. You know what I meant, and I can only explain a guy who doesn't understand and not one who pretends.

[dhurandhar]

In my first post I wanted to say about Timur (somehow Chenghis khan got into my typing as both of them are often associated) and whether his embracing Islam helped him with his successes. Now the topic has veered very wildly.

Did I say Kublai khan is a muslim?

And your saying that Islam was spread by Turks in India is like saying christianity in India was spread by Portuguese.

No you didn't...but my original argument was that if it wasn't for Mongols, Islam would have pervaded all of China and entered Japan:D

Your analogy is not appropriate in that Portuguese were not the only colonizers...their contemporary colonizers included French and British...not the case with Turks in India...Arabs and Turks were not present in India at the same time:D

Also, Turko-Afghans ruled India before Chengiz Khan took over central Asia...just refer to any good source on historical chronology of Central Asia and India:D

Timur's influence in spreading Islam to India was at best, MINIMAL...it was the same kind of effect that Mahmud Ghaznavi had...looting/ransacking and returning back...all in name of Islam:D

Most of India (notable exception being parts of Rajasthan and Assam) was ruled by Muslim rulers before Mughals entered India:D

Now whether Islam conquered populace or the land are two separate issues:D

[2gud]

Timur's influence in spreading Islam to India was at best, MINIMAL...it was the same kind of effect that Mahmud Ghaznavi had...looting/ransacking and returning back...all in name of Islam:D



Now Babur is proud of his lineage which he boasts from both Timur and Genghis khan what about that? That is why symbolically I said, Mughals were product of Mongols, though it is a question of debate how mongol like mughals were at the time of Baburs conquest.

[L8Again]

I don't blame 2gud pai.. it is after all one of the most common myths that are harbored by many.. This is in no response to any posts here, but a general comment to the whole issue..

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” : “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Going by the assumptions that Islam was spread by the sword, Muslims had ruled in Spain for 800 yrs. and so, it should have been an Islamic nation by now. The fact is they never used the sword to force the people to convert and later the christian crusaders came to Spain and wiped out Muslims.

14 million Arabs are christians since generations. Muslims are the lords of arabia for over 1400 yrs. How can your assumption that Islam was spread by the sword explain that ??

More than 80% of India is non-Muslim even after Muslim ruled India for about a thousand years. If Islam was truly spread by the sword, this wouldn't have been the numbers.

The first Muslims in India were in the Malabar coast. Contrary to the myths, that Muslim invaders brought Islam to India, the first converts to Islam were in the Malabar coast. And there was no army that was sent there. It were the Arab traders who came for spices that spread Islam using the sword of intellect.

Indonesia and Malaysia are both islamic nations today with Indonesia being the country that has the max. number of Muslims in the world. Can you please tell me which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?

East coast of Africa, similarly, has a big population of Muslim, please tell me which army went there?

Last but not least, the Quran instructs the Muslims to not use the sword for the spread of Islam because of the following verse:
"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

[dhurandhar]

I don't blame 2gud pai.. it is after all one of the most common myths that are harbored by many.. This is in no response to any posts here, but a general comment to the whole issue..

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” : “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Going by the assumptions that Islam was spread by the sword, Muslims had ruled in Spain for 800 yrs. and so, it should have been an Islamic nation by now. The fact is they never used the sword to force the people to convert and later the christian crusaders came to Spain and wiped out Muslims.

14 million Arabs are christians since generations. Muslims are the lords of arabia for over 1400 yrs. How can your assumption that Islam was spread by the sword explain that ??

More than 80% of India is non-Muslim even after Muslim ruled India for about a thousand years. If Islam was truly spread by the sword, this wouldn't have been the numbers.

The first Muslims in India were in the Malabar coast. Contrary to the myths, that Muslim invaders brought Islam to India, the first converts to Islam were in the Malabar coast. And there was no army that was sent there. It were the Arab traders who came for spices that spread Islam using the sword of intellect.

Indonesia and Malaysia are both islamic nations today with Indonesia being the country that has the max. number of Muslims in the world. Can you please tell me which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?

East coast of Africa, similarly, has a big population of Muslim, please tell me which army went there?

Last but not least, the Quran instructs the Muslims to not use the sword for the spread of Islam because of the following verse:
"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

Islam spread by force and peace...what ever means worked. Islamic invaders did not always have the ample manpower to handle the large Indian population. I agree to the extent that Islam was not always spread by force.

For Malaysia and Indonesia...they had Hindu/Buddhist kings there...and you had better refer to the history of these lands to know how exactly Islam came about to these countries. Inevitably, force was used at some point in time:D

Also, it helped Islam that ancient religions were more narrow in that once a person who became Muslim could not switch to being Hindu at will. Same goes for Judaism...you can not become a Jew...you can only be born a Jew...just like you can only be born a Hindu..can't become one (you can these days but not assimilate in Hindu society) if you are not:D

[2gud]

I don't blame 2gud pai.. it is after all one of the most common myths that are harbored by many.. This is in no response to any posts here, but a general comment to the whole issue..

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” : “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Going by the assumptions that Islam was spread by the sword, Muslims had ruled in Spain for 800 yrs. and so, it should have been an Islamic nation by now. The fact is they never used the sword to force the people to convert and later the christian crusaders came to Spain and wiped out Muslims.

14 million Arabs are christians since generations. Muslims are the lords of arabia for over 1400 yrs. How can your assumption that Islam was spread by the sword explain that ??

More than 80% of India is non-Muslim even after Muslim ruled India for about a thousand years. If Islam was truly spread by the sword, this wouldn't have been the numbers.

The first Muslims in India were in the Malabar coast. Contrary to the myths, that Muslim invaders brought Islam to India, the first converts to Islam were in the Malabar coast. And there was no army that was sent there. It were the Arab traders who came for spices that spread Islam using the sword of intellect.

Indonesia and Malaysia are both islamic nations today with Indonesia being the country that has the max. number of Muslims in the world. Can you please tell me which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?

East coast of Africa, similarly, has a big population of Muslim, please tell me which army went there?

Last but not least, the Quran instructs the Muslims to not use the sword for the spread of Islam because of the following verse:
"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

Now you surely have an agenda! Of making ROP look literally ROP!

It is true that the spread of Islam was not entirely through sword but it is a far cry to say Islam just spread because of its ideals. This is like subscribing to the other extreme.

And when people say Islam is spread by sword they mean it was mostly by conquest people of other faiths and pagans came into contact of Islam and of course people who converted had their own reason not least of them being bribes and promises of material gains, one could call such conversions as forced.

True conversion my friend comes out of ones own belief and not by inducement whether by sword or money/power

[Agastya]

[QUOTE=L8Again]I.....QUOTE]
So many millions jews still exist in Europe , solid proof that holocast never happened

[Sane Less]

...It were the Arab traders who came for spices that spread Islam using the sword of intellect.

...

Last but not least, the Quran instructs the Muslims to not use the sword for the spread of Islam because of the following verse:
"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

A sword of intellect or a sword of steel... still a sword, Late pai :D... so you agree that ROP spread by the sword :D... just kidding...

Have you ever heard of abrogation in the BOP, Late pai:confused:

[L8Again]

A sword of intellect or a sword of steel... still a sword, Late pai :D... so you agree that ROP spread by the sword :D... just kidding...

Have you ever heard of abrogation in the BOP, Late pai:confused:

Ah - the old so called abrogation - first off, its irrelevant in this thread. even if you don't take the last verse I quote as a valid argument, there are several other points I have pointed to that are more relevant to this thread. As for abrogation, which is an invented lie, there is a lot of literature on the net disproving each and every abrogation, so i am not going to go into that. Its like believing what the DaVinci code has to say about Jesus and believing it even though several books have been written to disprove the theory.

Moving on.. Dhurandar,.. you say in your post that in Malaysia and Indonesion, force was used "inevitably at some point in time". Please be specific as to when was force used and refer to your source -

[Sane Less]

Ah - the old so called abrogation - first off, its irrelevant in this thread. even if you don't take the last verse I quote as a valid argument, there are several other points I have pointed to that are more relevant to this thread. As for abrogation, which is an invented lie, there is a lot of literature on the net disproving each and every abrogation, so i am not going to go into that. Its like believing what the DaVinci code has to say about Jesus and believing it even though several books have been written to disprove the theory.

Moving on.. Dhurandar,.. you say in your post that in Malaysia and Indonesion, force was used "inevitably at some point in time". Please be specific as to when was force used and refer to your source -


Everything logical that is said about the MOP or the BOP is a lie, according to you... But then, why did I expect something else... you are after all another poop... how did I expect logic from you :mad:

Just to clarify a point, abrogation is not an invented lie. It was started by muslim scholars to better explain the BOP, which btw is totally inexplicable :D ha ha... a book that was supposed to be the most easily understood book :D Problem sirf ek hi hai, Late pai... Kulhadi bahut badi hai... pair chotte :D


The Da Vinci code is a work of fiction... the author clearly specifies that, nowhere has he said that god or an angel has spoken to him and revealed the wonders of the world... nowhere has he claimed that it is a theory. But most of the events/locations that the author has used for his story are real things... he just based a story around them... is he right? who knows... his story is as much fun, if not more, than the other stories based on those events/locations. Similarly, there is this book, "Prophet of Doom" by Craig Winn... his story makes better reading than the original BOP on which it is based :D

[dhurandhar]

Ah - the old so called abrogation - first off, its irrelevant in this thread. even if you don't take the last verse I quote as a valid argument, there are several other points I have pointed to that are more relevant to this thread. As for abrogation, which is an invented lie, there is a lot of literature on the net disproving each and every abrogation, so i am not going to go into that. Its like believing what the DaVinci code has to say about Jesus and believing it even though several books have been written to disprove the theory.

Moving on.. Dhurandar,.. you say in your post that in Malaysia and Indonesion, force was used "inevitably at some point in time". Please be specific as to when was force used and refer to your source -

I was wrong....in that Islam came to Malaysia and Indonesia via traders who embraced Islam eventually Islam assimilating into society...so no murderous persecution and rampage as meted out to Hindus in India:D. As a result, influence of Hindu/Buddhist culture and customs can be seen in Malaysian/Indonesian society.

Thx L8 pai for opportunity to revise my knowledge:D

[Sane Less]

I was wrong....in that Islam came to Malaysia and Indonesia via traders who embraced Islam eventually Islam assimilating into society...so no murderous persecution and rampage as meted out to Hindus in India:D. As a result, influence of Hindu/Buddhist culture and customs can be seen in Malaysian/Indonesian society.

Thx L8 pai for opportunity to revise my knowledge:D

But you are missing out on one thing, Durai pai and Late pai... are you suggesting that the religion of peace has done spreading in these two countries:confused: Maybe centuries ago when it arrived, it arrived through traders and peacefully spread (however hard that is to believe). But do you think that it has stopped spreading... read some recent news... maybe you will have to revise your knowledge again, Dhirauoi pai :D

[2gud]

As a result, influence of Hindu/Buddhist culture and customs can be seen in Malaysian/Indonesian society.



One thing I like about Indonesia is that even if they embrace Islam (it is their choice and I respect that) they had the free mind to hold on to their pre-islamic culture. They have theatrical versions of sequences from Ramayana and Mahabharata and they even carry on with their seemingly hindu names like Veeranto, Sushanto, Megawati etc.

I mean its unlike other countries which tried to erase, or even feel shame about what their pre-islamic forefathers used to practice as culture.

[dhurandhar]

One thing I like about Indonesia is that even if they embrace Islam (it is their choice and I respect that) they had the free mind to hold on to their pre-islamic culture. They have theatrical versions of sequences from Ramayana and Mahabharata and they even carry on with their seemingly hindu names like Veeranto, Sushanto, Megawati etc.

I mean its unlike other countries which tried to erase, or even feel shame about what their pre-islamic forefathers used to practice as culture.

I couldn't agree more:D

[Agastya]

"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

If you go and announce to a crowd standing under blazing sun "Are you enjoying cool soothing rays of moon?" you are not telling them a lie, you are insulting thier intelligance. Your quote above falls exactly in same category.

For the time being i leave detailed descriptions of sacking of Constantinoples , conversion of Sophia Hagia into a mosque .I also ignore massacres personally supervised by muhhamed....you will dispute them by some confusing argument .

Just answer one question --what is kaba ?
was it not possible for muhhamed to build a seperate grand building as home his new faith ? kaba housed dieties of 360 tribes of arabia and each of these were destroyed , why? just becasue he captured mecca in miltary conquest. islam started with destruction of others faith, it is based on abuse of what arabs treated holy at that time. kaba and islam remain a beacon of universal hate to this very day.

[Agastya]

pushing it up, i am waiting for defenders of this criminal cult to come and answer

[Agastya]

still waiting for defenders of criminal cult

[Agastya]

still waiting for defenders of criminal cult to coem and justify existance of kaba as anything other than as a symbol of pure hate.

[Sane Less]

Last but not least, the Quran instructs the Muslims to not use the sword for the spread of Islam because of the following verse:
"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)

Latgi pai, check this news-article out... explain who possibly could know better about the book of peace and its supporting documents, you or a judge in a shariat court in a country based on the book of peace,



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060321.AFGHAN21/TPStory/TPInternational/

Afghan man faces death for turning to Christianity
TIM ALBONE
Special to The Globe and Mail, with a report from Associated Press

KABUL -- The judge deciding whether an Afghan man should be executed for converting to Christianity does not understand what all the fuss is about.

"In this country, we have [a] perfect constitution. It is Islamic law and it is illegal to be a Christian and it should be punished," Judge Alhaj Ansarullah Mawawy Zada said in an interview yesterday. "In your country, two women can marry. I think that is very strange."

Judge Zada, head of Kabul's primary court, has already heard initial evidence in the case of Abdul Rahman, a 41-year-old who converted to Christianity from Islam more than 14 years ago. The judge is expected to deliver his verdict within two weeks.

Mr. Rahman converted while in Pakistan where he worked for a Christian aid agency. He was arrested after he returned to his birthplace and tried to regain custody of his daughters, who had been living with his parents. His family turned him in, and he was arrested with a Bible in his possession.

"It is a crime to convert to Christianity from Islam. He is teasing and insulting his family by converting," Judge Zada said. "The Attorney-General is emphasizing he should be hung."

If sentenced to death, Mr. Rahman has two avenues of appeal: to the Provincial Court and to the Supreme Court. The death sentence also would need President Hamid Karzai's approval to be carried out.

Prosecutor Abdul Wasi said the charge would be dropped if Mr. Rahman converted back to Islam, which he has so far refused to do.

Prison officials refused requests to interview Mr. Rahman, but one of his cellmates said he was resolute.

"He is standing by his words," said Sayad Miakel, 30. "He will not become a Muslim again."

Another cellmate said Mr. Rahman seemed depressed.

"He keeps looking up to the sky, to God," said Khalylullah Safi, 31.

The trial is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take four years after the ouster from Afghanistan of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

It also reveals the friction between Islamic and statutory law.

Both are affirmed in the country's draft constitution, which says Islam is the religion of Afghanistan but also mentions the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which ensures freedom of religion.

Afghanistan is a conservative Islamic country. About 99 per cent of its 28 million people are Muslim and the rest are mainly Hindu.

A Christian aid worker in Kabul, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, said there is no reliable figure for the number of Christians in the country, although it is believed to be only in the dozens or low hundreds.

He said few admit their faith because of fear of retribution and there are no known Afghan churches.

An old house in a war-wrecked suburb of Kabul serves as a Christian place of worship for expatriates. From the muddy street, the building looks like any other. Its guard, Abdul Wahid, said no Afghans go there.

The only other churches are believed to be inside foreign embassies or on bases used by U.S. troops or the NATO-led peacekeeping force.

[Sane Less]

"Let their be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256)



If you go and announce to a crowd standing under blazing sun "Are you enjoying cool soothing rays of moon?" you are not telling them a lie, you are insulting thier intelligance. Your quote above falls exactly in same category.

I wonder why Lagai pai never came back on Agasti pai's response... almost every day... now my imagination is running wild... is it possible that Lagai pai finally opened up the BOP and started reading it:confused:

[Agastya]

Brother sane , islam begins and ends at pure hate and falsehood .
spreading delibearte lies is prime islamic technique --called taqiya .
L8 or any other defender of criminality can not wipe out . They can not change the fact that kaba stands as mounement of absue and unbridled hatred islam has for mankind, human intelligance, freedom and liberty