Saudi offer to fix Delhi mosque

[rameshp]

Saudi offer to fix Delhi mosque


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39017000/jpg/_39017143_jamamasjid_203.jpg
The Jama Masjid can host more than 20,000 worshippers


Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has offered to pay to repair India's largest mosque, Delhi's historic Jama Masjid (Grand Mosque). A spokesman for India's foreign ministry confirmed the offer, which had earlier been made directly to the mosque's chief cleric.
The cleric, Ahmed Bukhari, said the 17th century structure was in urgent need of repair.

Media reports say the king also wants to fund education in India.

Concern

"I received the offer directly from the Saudi authorities but asked them to approach the government," Imam Bukhari told the BBC.
The mosque is classified as a historical monument and its maintenance is the responsibility of the Archaeological Survey of India, a government body responsible for the upkeep of historical sites and buildings.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif We need millions of rupees for its restoration http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif Syed Ahmed Bukhari, chief cleric



"We have received this offer and it will be examined in consultation with the concerned authority," foreign ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna said.
Imam Bukhari said the minarets of the 17th century mosque needed to be repaired.

"We also need to polish the tombs and repair other parts of the structure."
The Times of India newspaper said the Saudi king also wanted to fund education in India.

Both offers have raised concerns with Indian security agencies who are said to fear that the money could be used to preach radical Islam, the Times reported.

The Jama Masjid was built in 1656 by the Mughal emperor Shah Jahan, who also built the Taj Mahal. The red sandstone and marble edifice has a grand courtyard which can hold more than 20,000 worshippers. "We need millions of rupees for its restoration," the imam said.

King Abdullah is due to visit India this month and will be the chief guest at the country's Republic Day celebrations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4581056.stm

No Thank You, we dont need ur f*ck all oil and terrorism money, Saudi Arabia! Go f*ck youself and ur f*ck all radical version of islam in pukistan!:mad: :down:

[echarcha]

Why do I feel that our government will accept these alms like a beggar? :rolleyes:

Mayor Rudi Giulliani had told the Prince to go fuck off when he offered a 'donation' to help New York after 9/11. Well the mayor had self respect and US does not need alms. Nor does India need alms, but our politics is thar of appesement and hence the Saidi alms might be accepted. :down: Just wait and watch.

[Czarcasm]

hmm... possible. although our government declined aid after the tsunami. Not sure what to make of this

[Sane Less]

Our government should accept the money (because money given is always money well taken :D). As usual most of it would be used to line our politicians' pockets and hopefully will lessen corruption of real money used for India's progress... but then you know, our politicians' pockets run real deep :(

Also, this money can be taken and the rebate offered on the pilgrimage of peace taken away... there will be hopefully less protests from the people of peace :D... the policy of give and take...

[echarcha]

hmm... possible. although our government declined aid after the tsunami. Not sure what to make of this

Youa re right.. When our government refused Tsunami aid we wanted to be the big brother in the region and we helped Sri Lanka and offered aid to Indonesia and other affected. That was a good step to really use the resources we have and to establish that now we are not always going to look for aid and assistance.

However, this is mosque related and it reeks more of politics than religion. Saudi offers are not benign or just purely philanthropic offers to help. They have already sponsored so many madarsas in countries around the world. This is their way of spreading Wahabbism which is the most radical sect of Islam and also the one followed by Osama Bin Laden.

I hope the Jama Masjid folks dont fall prey for this and keep Saudi out.

[max de Indiana]

Saudi offer to fix Delhi mosque


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39017000/jpg/_39017143_jamamasjid_203.jpg
The Jama Masjid can host more than 20,000 worshippers


Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has offered to pay to repair India's largest mosque, Delhi's historic Jama Masjid (Grand Mosque). A spokesman for India's foreign ministry confirmed the offer, which had earlier been made directly to the mosque's chief cleric.
The cleric, Ahmed Bukhari, said the 17th century structure was in urgent need of repair.

Media reports say the king also wants to fund education in India.

Concern

"I received the offer directly from the Saudi authorities but asked them to approach the government," Imam Bukhari told the BBC.
The mosque is classified as a historical monument and its maintenance is the responsibility of the Archaeological Survey of India, a government body responsible for the upkeep of historical sites and buildings.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif We need millions of rupees for its restoration http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif Syed Ahmed Bukhari, chief cleric



"We have received this offer and it will be examined in consultation with the concerned authority," foreign ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna said.
Imam Bukhari said the minarets of the 17th century mosque needed to be repaired.

"We also need to polish the tombs and repair other parts of the structure."
The Times of India newspaper said the Saudi king also wanted to fund education in India.

Both offers have raised concerns with Indian security agencies who are said to fear that the money could be used to preach radical Islam, the Times reported.

The Jama Masjid was built in 1656 by the Mughal emperor Shah Jahan, who also built the Taj Mahal. The red sandstone and marble edifice has a grand courtyard which can hold more than 20,000 worshippers. "We need millions of rupees for its restoration," the imam said.

King Abdullah is due to visit India this month and will be the chief guest at the country's Republic Day celebrations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4581056.stm

No Thank You, we dont need ur f*ck all oil and terrorism money, Saudi Arabia! Go f*ck youself and ur f*ck all radical version of islam in pukistan!:mad: :down:




why this fu***** mulla do'nt want donate for Rebuild RamMandir in Ayodhya??:mad:
why only mosque?????:D
they want help India or to only muslims:D
again someone trying to play with India...dirty politics

[UMA]

Why do I feel that our government will accept these alms like a beggar? :rolleyes:

Mayor Rudi Giulliani had told the Prince to go fuck off when he offered a 'donation' to help New York after 9/11. Well the mayor had self respect and US does not need alms. Nor does India need alms, but our politics is thar of appesement and hence the Saidi alms might be accepted. :down: Just wait and watch.

Giuliani reurned the donation check from Saudi Prince because the latter made a stupid remark about the US after he handed over the $10M check. He said that US policies were responsible for 9/11. He could be right, but the moment was not. You don't go to the funeral of someone dead in a car accident and say that he was a bad driver. He should have been diplomatic.

There was a reason for NYC mayor to return the check, it is not the same with India. Saudi hasn't done anything bad to us - or atleast not something that I am aware of.

I'd say that we accept the donation if the structure really needs repair and protect a national monument. Jama Masjid is not just a mosque, it is a historical monument - just like Lal Quila. Saudi Arabia is not pakistan and we do not have any conflict of interest with them. If we can be friends with Iran (part of the axis of evil :D), we can certainly be friends with the Saudis.

[28virgo]

I'd say that we accept the donation if the structure really needs repair and protect a national monument. Jama Masjid is not just a mosque, it is a historical monument - just like Lal Quila. Saudi Arabia is not pakistan and we do not have any conflict of interest with them. If we can be friends with Iran (part of the axis of evil :D), we can certainly be friends with the Saudis.

I'd say we should not accept the donation.. India is home to the world's 3rd largest Muslim population, Accepting the donation will be preceived negatively especially in the Indian Muslim community...As you point out Jama Masjid is a historical Monument, The Muslims will argue that the Govt of India does not enough money for the upkeep of Islamic Monuments and is dependent on other countries for aid...

[Cooldude]

I'd say we should not accept the donation.. India is home to the world's 3rd largest Muslim population, Accepting the donation will be preceived negatively especially in the Indian Muslim community...As you point out Jama Masjid is a historical Monument, The Muslims will argue that the Govt of India does not enough money for the upkeep of Islamic Monuments and is dependent on other countries for aid...

Virgo Pai, India has the world’s second largest Muslim population after Indonesia.

As for India accepting such charities from world Islamic leaders, this isn’t new.

In the past, Prince Aga Karim Khan, the spiritual leader of Shia Ismaili Muslims donated generously for the restoration of Humayun's tomb in Delhi:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2952593.stm

[AmthaLal]

Giuliani reurned the donation check from Saudi Prince because the latter made a stupid remark about the US after he handed over the $10M check. He said that US policies were responsible for 9/11. He could be right, but the moment was not. You don't go to the funeral of someone dead in a car accident and say that he was a bad driver. He should have been diplomatic.

There was a reason for NYC mayor to return the check, it is not the same with India. Saudi hasn't done anything bad to us - or atleast not something that I am aware of.

I'd say that we accept the donation if the structure really needs repair and protect a national monument. Jama Masjid is not just a mosque, it is a historical monument - just like Lal Quila. Saudi Arabia is not pakistan and we do not have any conflict of interest with them. If we can be friends with Iran (part of the axis of evil :D), we can certainly be friends with the Saudis.


Wake up you Moron.....

Now I lost all respact for your some of the intelligent posts.
You just have to go against everybody.

Who the fuck supported Al-Queda, behind the curtains?
The whole world knows it and whole World knows Al-Queda is backing Kashmiri terrorists.

So shut the fuck up next time you A$$hole/B1tch...whatever you are.

[28virgo]

Virgo Pai, India has the world’s second largest Muslim population after Indonesia.

As for India accepting such charities from world Islamic leaders, this isn’t new.

In the past, Prince Aga Karim Khan, the spiritual leader of Shia Ismaili Muslims donated generously for the restoration of Humayun's tomb in Delhi:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2952593.stm

Sorry Cooldude pai I picked up my figures from wikipedia which are based on the 2001 census http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Muslims..
probably wrong..

The article which you have marked states that the humayun tomb project the first privately funded project undertaken by ASI... Although they are trying to attract more private partners, I am sceptical how the question of Saudi Aid will play in the govt circles.. although King Abdullah would donate this money as an individual, figuratively he represents country of Saudi Arabia (being the King)...

[Sane Less]

Wake up you Moron.....

Now I lost all respact for your some of the intelligent posts.
You just have to go against everybody.

Who the fuck supported Al-Queda, behind the curtains?
The whole world knows it and whole World knows Al-Queda is backing Kashmiri terrorists.

So shut the fuck up next time you A$$hole/B1tch...whatever you are.

Amti pai, I did not expect this from you. Uma tai has made a perfect post after a (not so) long time... I see only logic in his post and no nonsense, but you still are deriding him... shame on you. I can understand why Cha pai and Tanti pai :vomit: on Uma pai, but there was no reason for you to, not on this post.

Why the fu*k should India not accept a donation from Saudi if it is made with no hidden reason (other than future islamic repurcussions :D). Saudi is no Al Qaeeda, and AQ is not making this donation. No major country in the world is openly hostile to Saudi, why the fu*k should India show hostility, and that too when India is friendly with Pukistan?

[dawizard]

I hope the Jama Masjid folks dont fall prey for this and keep Saudi out.

I hope Jama masjid f**ks don't get involved in this in the first place....they'll beg for more money, suddenly they'll remember all the damn repairs for the mosque which has been standing there for years.....and then they'll open new madarasas and what not.....i hope the politicians totally throw out this offer or embezzle all the money !

[rameshp]

No major country in the world is openly hostile to Saudi, why the fu*k should India show hostility, and that too when India is friendly with Pukistan?

esp. when US sleeps with Saudi Arabia, keeps them armed!!:rolleyes:

[Desa]

Wake up you Moron.....

Now I lost all respact for your some of the intelligent posts.
You just have to go against everybody.

Who the fuck supported Al-Queda, behind the curtains?
The whole world knows it and whole World knows Al-Queda is backing Kashmiri terrorists.

So shut the fuck up next time you A$$hole/B1tch...whatever you are.

Amtha, you are pretty wrong here. Osama bin Ladin's aim is also to overthrow the royal family of Saudi Arabia. Because of this Bin Laden's nationality was revoked. They are each other enemies.

Also, this case is not up to the Jama masjid administration but Govt. of India as quoted by the article


"I received the offer directly from the Saudi authorities but asked them to approach the government," Imam Bukhari told the BBC.
The mosque is classified as a historical monument and its maintenance is the responsibility of the Archaeological Survey of India, a government body responsible for the upkeep of historical sites and buildings.

Of course Saudi King is donating money for the establishment of mosque for MUSLIMS. Anybody can do that. Don't hindus give to temples or Christians to churches. You don't question them as towhy they are not giving to mosque.

First of all nobody went to him. He offered the help himself. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it because of the following reasons:

King Abdullah is not asking for any favours in return for this. Saudi Kings have made similar contributions to mosques abroad like King Fahd gave millions for some mosque in Los Angeles (I am not sure which one)
If the money goes to the repairs of the Jama Masjid then the funds that otherwise have to be used for the repairs of Jama Masjid can be used for other uses and it won't look as if Government is showing favour to one particular religion.
Also as it is said "Ghar aayi Lakshmi ko kyon bahar nikaal rahe ho". All he is doing is giving money for specific purpose (to repair the mosque) and not asking anything in return. As long as there is no interference from him, I think it is good.

[echarcha]

Saudi Arabia is not the dear goody two shoes you might think. Everyone is nice with them because they sit on one of the highest crude oil reserves in the world.

As for Osama, he is a product of Saudi Wahabism or Wahabi sect. The Suadi royal family is no different. Osama is extreme openly while the Saudis are extreme covertly. Why else would the (accepted by Liberals too ;) ) HUman Rights folks beat the drum about abuses in Saudi?

Anyway, Saudi is all about promoting Wahabism, especially since 9/11. They say they dont harbor terrorists yet the conditions in their country produced 19 terrorists of 9/11.

US is being friendly with Saudis, maybe for political and strategic reasons beyond me. But for India, its best to stay away from such specific religious grants.

If Saudi wants to help the Muslims in India then how about selling India a barrel at least one dollar less than what they charge now? It will make a difference. Or how about shipping cooking gas at a lower cost to help the poor Muslims in India?

If the Indian government is ready to accept donations to restore the Jama Masjid then what is wrong when millions of HIndus in India and worldwide wish to donate for building the Ram Mandir?

UMA, I know you wish to kick me at every opportunity, but when it comes to the ultra radical Saudi Arabi based Wahabis, I hope you are just writing to kick me around.

[TerminatorJR]

First the Saudis need to think about fixing the mess in Mecca created by the hotel collapse and the at least 50 people killed. I hope, our folks don't accept any donations from the Saudis and deal with the problem ourselves.

Add : They r upto no good. (http://www.echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13447)

[UMA]

Wake up you Moron.....

Now I lost all respact for your some of the intelligent posts.
You just have to go against everybody.

Who the fuck supported Al-Queda, behind the curtains?
The whole world knows it and whole World knows Al-Queda is backing Kashmiri terrorists.

So shut the fuck up next time you A$$hole/B1tch...whatever you are.

LOL ... I don't care whether you respect my post or not ... Do I care for what a racial person like you thinks about me? :D

Are you saying that Saudi Arabia supported Al Queda? Perhaps you do not know that the Bin Laden family had cut-off its relationship with Osama a long time back. Although it is possible, there is no evidence yet of Saudi Arabian monarchy supporting Al Queda.

Just because Modi is a bad guy, all Gujaraties are not bad :D

[UMA]

UMA, I know you wish to kick me at every opportunity, but when it comes to the ultra radical Saudi Arabi based Wahabis, I hope you are just writing to kick me around.


what makes you think that I post to kick you? I don't even know you ... I just kick the posts and arguments you write her. For example, you support US invasion of Iraq for cheap oil, I disagree. You oppose reservation, but support it in local government administrtion. I say double standards.

You hate Congress party and support goondas like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal. I like Congress and hate the communal BJP :D and castist parties like Janata Dal. :D

[UMA]

If the Indian government is ready to accept donations to restore the Jama Masjid then what is wrong when millions of HIndus in India and worldwide wish to donate for building the Ram Mandir?

There is difference. Jama Masjid is not a disputed structure, Ram Mandir in Ayodhya is. Ram Mandir has not been built at the birth place of Shri Ram, not because of lack of funds (I don't know where you got that idea from :D) but because of dispute over land where Babar supposedly built a mosque after demolishing the temple.

[echarcha]

what makes you think that I post to kick you? I don't even know you ... I just kick the posts and arguments you write her. For example, you support US invasion of Iraq for cheap oil, I disagree. You oppose reservation, but support it in local government administrtion. I say double standards.

You hate Congress party and support goondas like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal. I like Congress and hate the communal BJP :D and castist parties like Janata Dal. :D

I love how you just play with semantics and dodge the real question. Offcourse you kick my posts. :D Oh Uma-ji.. :D

[rationalthinker]

When Deshraj deshpande offered to gift 100 crores to Madras IIT and 'requested' that a part of that gift should be used for 'research' in some particular field, the 'authorities' at the IIT said that he must give his donation to some 'education' or some such fund that is 'managed' by the Govt.---and it must be without any 'strings' attached.
And our Govt. supported this stand.
Similarly, the Saudi Govt. must give that 'gift' to a 'Govt. body' which will be responsible for the 'proper' disbursment of that money.

[Desa]

When Deshraj deshpande offered to gift 100 crores to Madras IIT and 'requested' that a part of that gift should be used for 'research' in some particular field, the 'authorities' at the IIT said that he must give his donation to some 'education' or some such fund that is 'managed' by the Govt.---and it must be without any 'strings' attached.
And our Govt. supported this stand.
Similarly, the Saudi Govt. must give that 'gift' to a 'Govt. body' which will be responsible for the 'proper' disbursment of that money.

Thats exactly what is happening. Imam Bukhari have directed him to the government. Now it is between govt. of India and Saudi govt. Lets see what happens. Of course it should be without any strings attached. I don't think even Saudi Govt. have given any conditions for donating.

[mumbai_masti]

If the Indian government is ready to accept donations to restore the Jama Masjid then what is wrong when millions of HIndus in India and worldwide wish to donate for building the Ram Mandir?

Well hindus donating for ram mandir is for a communal cause. and others are doing it for noble cause...:D


Just because Modi is a bad guy, all Gujaraties are not bad

Mr/Ms Know-It-All by any chance you have visited Gujarat even a small village of 100 houses before making that comment?

[mumbai_masti]

You hate Congress party and support goondas like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal. I like Congress and hate the communal BJP and castist parties like Janata Dal.


seems soon you will start hating congress too :D :D

they want to make legislation regarding minority (read muslim) reservation :D

or is it Cast based reservation is wrong and religion based is correct because congress is supporting it?

[AmthaLal]

seems soon you will start hating congress too :D :D

they want to make legislation regarding minority (read muslim) reservation :D

or is it Cast based reservation is wrong and religion based is correct because congress is supporting it?

MM Pai.....


UMA is a duplicate ID of a well known hate mongerer.




To his so called love for congress and hatred for Modi.....well.....How many Shikhs Congressis killed after Indira Gandhi's assasination? And How many Muslims died in gujarat under Modi's rule?

Check his "beloved" party's own governments's books.;)

[UMA]

To his so called love for congress and hatred for Modi.....well.....How many Shikhs Congressis killed after Indira Gandhi's assasination? And How many Muslims died in gujarat under Modi's rule?

Check his "beloved" party's own governments's books.;)

LOL .... sikhs being killed in 1984 riots was an outburst against the killing of Indira Gandhi. Granted that it was initiated in some parts of Delhi by scumbags like Tytler, Shastri and Bhagat and some more maybe. But the administration did everything to control the riots and the riots were contained in a couple of days. In case of Gujarat, the administration itself was involved as Modi's government turned blind and deaf to muslim woes.

Moreover, two wrongs don't make one right. Just because there were riots in Delhi in 1984, does not mean that Modi can get away with it some 20 years later.

[UMA]

Mr/Ms Know-It-All by any chance you have visited Gujarat even a small village of 100 houses before making that comment?

Why does anyone have to visit Gujarat to know what happened? Do you get your news about some place only from a visit there? haven't you heard of media - TV, Radio, internet, newspaper? If you weren't in New York on 9/11/01, would your knowledge of those events be defective? :D :D

You have a pretty screwed up logic. LOL

The riots in Gujarat happened and the BJP govt. there did little to stop them from happening. Even moderates like Mahajan in BJP, opposed the stand taken by Modi, but he was silenced, as BJP wanted to gain from Hindu support in their action against muslims. In Gujarat, BJP won, but lost in center. :D :D

[UMA]

Thats exactly what is happening. Imam Bukhari have directed him to the government. Now it is between govt. of India and Saudi govt. Lets see what happens. Of course it should be without any strings attached. I don't think even Saudi Govt. have given any conditions for donating.

Exactly! if there are no strings attached, the govt. shouldn't refuse the donation from Saudi Arabia. Like I said, Jama Masjid, is not just a mosque, it is a historical monument too.

[echarcha]

Exactly! if there are no strings attached, the govt. shouldn't refuse the donation from Saudi Arabia. Like I said, Jama Masjid, is not just a mosque, it is a historical monument too.

Now now UMA-ji .. :D what kind of Congress loyalist are you? You want to give the credit and honours to a foreign government instead of getting it all for the Congress party? Doesn't your party want to pour in money and repair the mosque and get the credit and cement more vote-banks? :D

Come on now.. I am sure your great leaders will surely not like some foreign government take the credit and appear to be doing nothng for the 'upliftment of the poor and affected' minority! :D

[charminar]

What's wrong if Saudi offered money to repair Jama Masjid. Where were you all when Advani offered money to rebuild mandir's in Pakistan or when Sikhs offered money to rebuild Gurudwaras in Afghanistan.

Is this not the same thing ? Or is it different just because the money given here is for Masjid.

Long before, Money was sent regularly from Hyderabad for construction of infrastructure in Mecca and Madina, whats wrong if they are sending it now ?

[Desi24]

The Saudi king is going to be the chief guest at this year's republic day parade. So many soldiers have died by the terrorist's funded by this ahole and we are honoring him!

This is pathetic! :down: :mad:

http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/11/22/2211saudi-king-republic-day.html

[King]

What's wrong if Saudi offered money to repair Jama Masjid. Where were you all when Advani offered money to rebuild mandir's in Pakistan or when Sikhs offered money to rebuild Gurudwaras in Afghanistan.

Is this not the same thing ? Or is it different just because the money given here is for Masjid.

Long before, Money was sent regularly from Hyderabad for construction of infrastructure in Mecca and Madina, whats wrong if they are sending it now ?

No difference at all :rolleyes: The hindus in Afghanistan/Pakistan are in the same state as the Muslims in India and the temples there are cared for and in good condition as the Mosques in India.

After we all know that the Govt of Pakistan and Afghanistan care for all religious minorities and their places of worship.

[Sane Less]

No difference at all :rolleyes: The hindus in Afghanistan/Pakistan are in the same state as the Muslims in India and the temples there are cared for and in good condition as the Mosques in India.

After we all know that the Govt of Pakistan and Afghanistan care for all religious minorities and their places of worship.

I was going to retort angrily... and then realized...:rotfl: :D
Good one, Kong pai :D

[28virgo]

I was going to retort angrily... and then realized...:rotfl: :D
Good one, Kong pai :D

LOL Sane Pai! I was about to do the same when I realized the sarcy smiley.. the Smiley gave it away!

[Sane Less]

LOL Sane Pai! I was about to do the same when I realized the sarcy smiley.. the Smiley gave it away!

no, for me the second para gave it away, "After we all know that the Govt of Pakistan and Afghanistan care for all religious minorities and their places of worship." :D

[King]

no, for me the second para gave it away, "After we all know that the Govt of Pakistan and Afghanistan care for all religious minorities and their places of worship." :D


:rotfl: :rotfl:

Thanks goodness for smileys

[mumbai_masti]

Why does anyone have to visit Gujarat to know what happened? Do you get your news about some place only from a visit there?

Yes You should...If you dont know history..If you have faced riots like i did there you will not comment like this...


haven't you heard of media - TV, Radio, internet, newspaper? If you weren't in New York on 9/11/01, would your knowledge of those events be defective?


:D :D :D

yes i have heard of the media and their 'unbiased' reporting. When election held in gujarat i was in ahmedabad and my office was near gujarat college where the counting was going on..one reporters was reporting that BJP was loosing in one of the constituency sabarmati, but wht i saw was actually he was winning with a big margin (it was written by the election officers on the board they have created). and no wonder people beat him :D and in the evening it became a big news item that Journalists were beaten by VHP, RSS and Bajarang dal activists :D

[mumbai_masti]

July 28, 2004


The latest UNDP report's remark that India's reputation as a model constitutional protector of the country's remarkable cultural diversity has begun to fray because of the 2002 'genocide' in Gujarat is outrageous ignorance and insolence of the report's authors.


According to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, 'genocide' refers to 'acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.' Note that little word 'a' in that definition.

When Nazi Germany extinguished six million of a single group called Jews, that was genocide.

When, in 1984, Congress party goons extinguished over 3,000 of a single group called Sikhs, that too was genocide.

In 1989-1990, when some Muslims in the Kashmir valley slaughtered some 10,000 Kashmiri Pandits, killed or raped their women in front of their eyes, and ultimately expelled some 350,000 Pandits from their homes, that was genocide of a religious group.

In Gujarat 2002, however, of the total deaths (as per the home ministry's official annual report for 2002-2003, page 6), about a third were Hindus (including 59 charred in a train compartment) and 200 in all were killed in police firing. If, at one stage, 100,000 Muslims were struggling in relief camps, so were 40,000 Hindus. Thus, Gujarat 2002 was not genocide of one ethnic community as the UNDP report alleges.
Secondly, the authors of that report want us to believe that but for Gujarat 2002, the constitutional secularism of Indian democracy has by and large fulfilled its promise of all communities living in a paradise of religious pluralism. That's a falsehood. The truth is documented in the book Riots & Wrongs (India First Foundation, New Delhi, 2004) written by R N P Singh, an ex-officer of India's Intelligence Bureau who was honoured with the President's Police Medal and Indian Police Medal.

Statistics cited by Singh show that communal violence in India occurred in each and every year from 1954 to 1985. The total number of communal incidents in those 31 years was 8,449 (an annual average of 273), the total number of persons killed in that period was 7,229 (an annual average of 233), and the number of persons injured in those incidents was 47,321 (an annual average of 1,526).

After 1985, communal riots have also occurred in every year from 1986 to 1995, and in 1997, 2002 (besides Gujarat), and 2003.

Today's 'secular' journalists in denims and Lalu-like politicians in khadi are the fundamentalist secularists who believe that communal riots in India are caused by the RSS-VHP-BJP trinity. And pinko historians salivate in tracing Hindu-Muslim riots to British colonial scheming. But history again tells a different tale. In their 564-page narrative on India's long road to independence, Anthony Read and Davis Fischer write, 'The British may have utilized the division between Hindus and Muslims, but they certainly did not invent it: there had been communal friction since at least the time of Aurangzeb' who ruled India from 1658 till his death in 1707. (The Proudest Day, PIMLICO, 1998, page 78).

However, the first reported Hindu-Muslim riot took place in 1713 AD -- 212 years before the RSS was formed, 251 years before the VHP was founded, and 289 years before the Gujarat riots broke out after 59 Hindus were burnt to death in a train. Indeed, before the RSS was born in 1925, Singh's book records the occurrence of some 150 Hindu-Muslim riots and, unbelievably, of four riots between Muslims and... Parsis!

If Golwalkar and his so-called Hindu fanatics were not yet on the scene, why had those pre-1925 riots happened? A glimpse of the truth can be had from those four Muslim-Parsi riots traced to Bombay by Singh's book.

In 1850, a Parsi journalist published a photograph of Mohammad Paigambar in his newspaper. Muslims started assaulting all Parsis. In 1851, a magazine edited by a Parsi youth gave an account of the Prince of Arabia and an undiscovered villain posted a lithograph portrait of the Prophet on the entrance of a mosque. That was enough for Muslims to belabour Parsis.

In 1857, Muslims killed a Parsi high priest and a notorious Parsi character for his supposed insult to Islam and for receiving from the British what was deemed as only a mild punishment. The 1874 riots too originated because of a Parsi's translation of an American writer's article on the Prophet. (BTW, does all that tell us why India's modern-day journalists do not touch Islam with a barbed pen?)

It was thus abundantly clear more than 150 years ago, if not more, that their religion, Islam, was the be-all and end-all of Muslims in India. Even Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi failed to alter that mindset. It was but a matter of time before Pakistan was carved out from British India with accompanying rivers of human blood and oceans of human tears. Not satisfied, the new Islamic country invaded the Kashmir valley to secure its possession on religious grounds.

Came the Constitution of India on January 26, 1950, founded on noble secular principles although its architect, Dr B R Ambedkar, was convinced about his thesis that Muslims cannot co-exist with non-Muslims (Thoughts on Pakistan, Thacker & Co, Bombay, 1946).

This thesis has been subsequently endorsed by several Muslims themselves. Thus, in The Telegraph, Calcutta, of April 29, 1986, Tara Ali Baig wrote that the problem with the Muslims is that they 'insist on living lives by a fixed set of laws laid down for them in an Arab country long ago, which even today they consider inflexible, unalterable doctrine. This is the real root of the separate existence of Muslims in India. They do not know where to turn except to Mecca and the home of their religion.' Muslim intellectuals in India like eminent jurist M C Chagla, ex-politician and scholar Dr Rafiq Zakaria, and senior journalist M J Akbar have shared this view.

The conflict of interest between Muslims and non-Muslims and, what's more, between intra-Muslim sects themselves, has been substantiated outside India. The research findings of Jonathan Fox (published in his book Islam And The West) on the Cold War and post-Cold War activities of Islamic groups support Samuel Huntington's thesis that 'Islam is one of the greatest participants in civilizational conflicts'. As observed in the Journal of Peace Research (vol 38, no 4, 2001, Sage Publications, London), the Islamic civilization is conflicting with all other religions and not just the West.

By ignoring the fallout of the inherently inimical nature of Islam, the UNDP report errs further by believing that all over the world people can have multiple and complementary identities without creating a conflict between the assertion of ethnicity and the honouring of citizenship obligations.

Citing the factual situations in Lebanon, Cyprus, Israel, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, India, Russia and China, R N P Singh concludes, 'Muslims, whether in minority or majority, are always in conflict with others on one cause or the other. They never agree to join the mainstream with the non-Muslim majority and always demand separate land, separate law, separate educational institutions, and separate concessions. Their usual approach is to launch jehad or holy war against non-Muslims.'

This reality is slowly but surely dawning on the advanced Western world where Muslim immigrants are swelling by the day. Unlike India's ostrich-like media, leading newspapers abroad are beginning to look sharply at Islam's tenets.

Take Britain, where Muslim immigrants are now in the third generation stage. According to a recent poll in that country, 13 percent of British Muslims 'approved of a renewed terrorist assault, on the scale of the 9/11 outrage, on targets in America and Britain'. (India Link International magazine, London, June-July 2004 issue).

In that same publication are the views of Sarfraz Manzoor, the deputy commissioning editor at Channel 4, and of Lord Nazir Ahmed. Manzoor condemned 'the alienated and angry young Muslims who, though born here, do not accept Britain as their homeland.' Lord Nazir was critical of the imams in England who deliver fiery sermons and bemoaned, 'Young Muslims who come under the influence and spell of such narrow-minded imams are filled with nothing but animosity and absurd notions about Britain and the British people.'

In the Netherlands, a recent survey of 813 Dutch adults by TNS NIPO pollsters for De Volkskrant newspaper found that 36 percent of the Dutch feel threatened by Muslims in the Netherlands and only 15 percent regard their culture positively.

In Italy, writer Stefania A, an Italian ex-Muslim woman, recently condemned the social, political, and religious attitude of Muslim immigrants to Italy, bemoaned their unwillingness to do anything to integrate themselves with Italians, and told them to leave if they were not satisfied with what Italy offered them.

There is also France where the head scarf for Muslim schoolgirls caused such a furore among the Muslim community and forced the government to be determined to ban its wearing.

Taking Europe as a whole, the increasing assertiveness of Muslims has resulted in some intellectuals predicting the continent's name being changed in the near future to 'Eurabia.'

Finally, the USA. More and more mainstream journalists are uncovering facts that will wean away the naïve belief that Islam is a religion of peace. The latest is from Nicholas D Kristoff. Writing in The New York Times, he made the telling assessment, 'We have quite properly linked the fundamentalist religious tracts of Islam with the intolerance they nurture.' (Reproduced in The Asian Age, Mumbai, July 20, 2004.)

It's a tragedy of our times then that the UNDP report's authors chose to wear blinkers when it gushed about cultural diversity being compatible with integrated citizenship without taking the Islamic world into account.

By the way, how much does producing a UNDP report cost? What purpose does it, and other such UN reports, serve? Might it not be better for the world body to spend that money, howsoever small or big, on offering succour to the victims of such genocides as were perpetrated on the Sikhs in 1984 and the Kashmiri Pandits in 1989-1990?

Source : http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/28arvind.htm

[Sane Less]

I will be interested in knowing what our local echans of peace would think of this article.

Yeh thread bhi kaha se kaha aa gaya :D

[echarcha]

I will be interested in knowing what our local echans of peace would think of this article.

Yeh thread bhi kaha se kaha aa gaya :D
Nothing man. Nothing... The pseudo seculars will call it all false despite references to the government's own data and reports. I am really amazed how the new Hitler uses the combination of 'i am persecuted', leftist media, corrupt politicians and terrorism to get their way. All this while we stupid Hindus look for more avenues to be secular.

If you take all the major conflicts in the world, the one party involved is always Muslims! In Middle East they blame Jews. But what about East Timor? What about Jammu and Kashmir? I know that these folks can never live in peace with others. By the time we are very old or our grandchildren are of a young age, we might see them bending down on a prayer mat braying to Mecca five times a day! :down:

[Sane Less]

By the time we are very old or our grandchildren are of a young age, we might see them bending down on a prayer mat braying to Mecca five times a day! :down:


With the way things are going in today's world, that is not going to happen, hopefully :D

This was the reason for my discussions for echans of peace in other threads (some created by me). Way things are going, the truth about the book of peace is going to be known and taught around the world. When that happens, where will our colleagues of peace stand? :confused:

[UMA]

July 28, 2004

The latest UNDP report's remark that India's reputation as a model constitutional protector of the country's remarkable cultural diversity has begun to fray because of the 2002 'genocide' in Gujarat is outrageous ignorance and insolence of the report's authors.


LOL ... a UN organisation refers to the riots as genocide, and you call media biased against the Modi govt.:D

The author of this rediff item is clearly a BJP supporter as in defense of riots in Gujarat, he is presenting figures from riots in Delhi triggered by Indira Gandhi's assassination. He is trying to say that since Congress did this and got away, BJP's government's killing of muslims is pardonable. What a screwed up logic it is :D

This is biased reporting :D On the other hand, UNDP report is more reliable and correct too :D

[UMA]

... and no wonder people beat him :D and in the evening it became a big news item that Journalists were beaten by VHP, RSS and Bajarang dal activists :D

why am I not surprised at the conduct of RSS and Bajrang Dal activists :D they are anti-national

[mumbai_masti]

why am I not surprised at the conduct of RSS and Bajrang Dal activists :D they are anti-national


and wht makes you think they were RSS/BD activists? Just because a screwed reporter has told that?

[arun]

Dear Echarchans,

Instead of spending money on a mosque in some other country, it will do good if 350 plus families of pilgrims who have died in stampede get adequate
compensation from Saudi Govt..

Like the Huj pilgrimage which is an annual ritual, people getting stampeded in hundreds is also becoming a regular feature. Saudi Govt. should better concentrate and spend on measures that will avoid this butchering.

Arun

[rationalthinker]

The trouble is that Muslims only say Allah is omnipotent.In their heart of hearts they firmly believe that Allah is impotent.
That's why every Muslim believes it is his religious duty to 'act' on his behalf.
That's why they indulge in Jehad themselves (because they feel Allah's wish will not be fulfilled THEY did something about it!)
This 'stoning' of the Devil is part of this same mentality---Allah can't do anything about the Devil,so THEY must do something about it!
Obviously the Devil is bound to retaliate,so he kills some of them!
Only thing is that the Hindus' liabilities will further go up---as it is they have to pay through their nose for their annual jaunt to Arabia,now they will have to shell out some more for these 'heroes' who have died in 'action'.:(

[echarcha]

The trouble is that Muslims only say Allah is omnipotent.In their heart of hearts they firmly believe that Allah is impotent.
That's why every Muslim believes it is his religious duty to 'act' on his behalf.
That's why they indulge in Jehad themselves (because they feel Allah's wish will not be fulfilled THEY did something about it!)
This 'stoning' of the Devil is part of this same mentality---Allah can't do anything about the Devil,so THEY must do something about it!
Obviously the Devil is bound to retaliate,so he kills some of them!
Only thing is that the Hindus' liabilities will further go up---as it is they have to pay through their nose for their annual jaunt to Arabia,now they will have to shell out some more for these 'heroes' who have died in 'action'.:(

I could not help but chuckle :)