Death Sentence for Timothy McVeigh: Classical screw-up?

[aryaputra]

What do you think folks?

[kate]

.

[viking]

Kate said:
Too bad he can't be killed 168 times!!

This agressiveness does not befit your personality.I feel we are from the land of Gandhiji.....they should let him go afterall what can be achieved by killing him.Werent you the one who feels that Kashmir should be given away to Pakistan on a platter without killing any Kashmiri???.

Why do you have these double standards??

[kate]

There is no parallel between McVeigh and Kashmir.

Just think about it (though I know that it would be difficult for you :p :p :p)

[viking]

I knew that as usual you would say something without thinking...well it's not your fault just your incapability.But the common thread is non violence.You champion the cause of non violence,so why are you advocating such violent means of punishment ??Did you not say that we should give away Kashmir on a platter?

[kate]

There is nothing common between Kashmir and McVeigh :o :o

McVeigh committed a heinous crime for which he has to be punished and even capital punishement is not enough for the crime he did - lives of todders and children were lost in the that bombing in 1995.

Kashmir is a disputed land between India and Pak (let's not digress on to kashmir on this McVeigh thread. India has lost several soldiers in defending Kashmir when I believe that kashmiris are not with India and so I say that the indian govt. is sacrificing its people for a cause that I don't think is fit.

Hope this was simplied enough to make you understand although I am sure that it would be difficult for your peasize brain.

[GpeL]

Kate.. I m surprised viking calls you a gandhi!!!! you got enuf guts to fight.. go kate go... (Just do not get on the titanic)..

[viking]

viking, Iknew you cannot think. You just proved it.

There you jump to conclusions that is the consequence of thinking
the wrong way all the time!.

[Super Girl]

I am all for capital punishment. Especially in this case. Whenever I see the images flashing across, my blood boils at the thought of the many families that have been shattered.

On lighter note, this is for viking -

I do not know why, but everytime I see your name and avatar, I just remember Hagar the Horrible. :D :D :D

[viking]

GPeL Said:
Kate.. I m surprised viking calls you a gandhi!!!! you got enuf guts to fight.. go kate go

Kyo re chadha rahela hai kya????...that reminds me of the saying
"Aap age badho ham kapde samhalte hai"

GPeL says:
Just do not get on the titanic

We she dosent she just gets on peoples nerves!!:D

[viking]

Super Gurl Purred:
I do not know why, but everytime I see your name and avatar, I just remember Hagar the Horrible

Well what do I do to change that??!! I wanna be seen by you as Viking the lovable :)

[Super Girl]

Well, Hagar might be called Hagar the Horrible, but he is as harmless and cute as a panda. So you do not need to go overboard changing yourself. You are fine, just the way you are.;) :)

[viking]

Hmmm.. well thats encouraging!!super gurl :)

[GpeL]

viking bhai..


Kyo re chadha rahela hai kya????...that reminds me of the saying
"Aap age badho ham kapde samhalte hai"



Yaar ladne ka jamanaaa tha ab gayaaa.. kapde hi samhaanne pad rahai hain :p... agar jaroorat pade to soye hue sher ko jagaane me poblem nahi hai.. but for now.. tu maidan sambhaal...

[aryaputra]

Originally posted by Super Girl
I am all for capital punishment. Especially in this case. Whenever I see the images flashing across, my blood boils at the thought of the many families that have been shattered.

On lighter note, this is for viking -

I do not know why, but everytime I see your name and avatar, I just remember Hagar the Horrible. :D :D :D

SG,

There is nothing wrong with capital punishment.

Question is: Is McVeigh innocent or Guilty?

I mean - was this a screw-up?

[risingsun]

Originally posted by kate
There is nothing common between Kashmir and McVeigh :o :o

McVeigh committed a heinous crime for which he has to be punished and even capital punishement is not enough for the crime he did - lives of todders and children were lost in the that bombing in 1995.

Kashmir is a disputed land between India and Pak (let's not digress on to kashmir on this McVeigh thread. India has lost several soldiers in defending Kashmir when I believe that kashmiris are not with India and so I say that the indian govt. is sacrificing its people for a cause that I don't think is fit.

Hope this was simplied enough to make you understand although I am sure that it would be difficult for your peasize brain.

come shutup katey...he is not arguing on parallel between kashmir and Mcveigh. he is arguing on you advocating death to a person 168 times ( HOW VERY VIOLENT) and giving away something (KASHMIR) to avoid EVEN A SINGLE DEATH (HOW VERY GANDHIWADI, NON VIOLENT).

NOW GIVE AN ANSWER TO THIS ARGUMENT. YEEDEEYAT

[risingsun]

personally, my gut feeling is that Mcveigh is guilty, but death sentence to him is unjustified. imprisonment for 200 years would have been something like it. death kya ek baar mar gaya ki khatam kaam, in a jail for whole life he should have been so that in that hell he would have been reminded every living moment of his life of the crime he has committed.

[Super Girl]

I think McVeigh is guilty. There is no doubt about it in my opinion.

Did anyone watch the execution coverage this morning? I did. I am very busy right now, but will post my feelings later int he afternoon.

SG

[aryaputra]

OK.

the reason why I am raising this question is because it's all circumstantial evidence + McVeigh's confession that is the basis of this sentence.

I think we all know how faulty circumstantial evidence can be.
eye-witnesses? i believe there were as many on both sides.

Coming to McVeigh's confession, it could well be that he might be contemplating suicide and what better way than getting world famous at the same time. No?

trying putting yourself in McVeigh's shoes. A man who has a torn background as a kid - an ambitiuous man who could not get to what he wanted in life - finally thinks about suicide -and guess what? USA citizens wants to kill him. WOW. why not?

In the opinion of the jury, the guy did it and was rightfully sentenced to death.

Yes, there is a possibility that he didn't do it and everyone made a mistake (:o :o :o) but then, by that logic no case will ever be solved.

[aryaputra]

Quite a few will be solved :o :o , rightfully and justified though.


if you listened to any interviews about people, everybody is so callous in sending mcveigh to death. Nobody is even raising the doubt. Why?

'cause they wanted somebody to die for what happened?

so the first man who confessed is sentenced. Is that so?

Please. I am not ridiculing the justice dept., but surely would like to know if I am missing something - the final and undeniable proof that it was Mcveigh who was the killer of 168 innocent people.

[echarcha]

These showed that Timothy McVeigh was guilty of all that he did. There was proper evidence of his bomb making and then bombing, etc.

So basic facts remains the same - He bombed innocents to death.
So the law of the land - in this case death penalty - is appropriate.

The difference in India is that almost every major killer or murderer goes scott free if he has the right connections and money to bribe.

Our Mumbai blasts case is dragging on for almost 10 years now and still nor result. No one will be hanged nor will anything come out. Some will go scott free, some will get a relatively easy slap on the wrist and a few will be put behind bars for life.

Atleast here, they took proper actions and justice was meted out.

[Super Girl]

I agree with Sutradhar.

There was ample proof to link this man to the bonbing. One of the biggest point to note - had he been alone, acting by himself, questions might have been rasied about his involvement. But Terry Nichols, his ex-army buddy was his accomplice. Enough said.

Nichol's apology was also a mockery - to say sorry and to justify his actions is no apology at all. I watched every bit today morning. It just seemed right. My husband thought I was being heartless, but for all these years I have not been able to get the lifeless body of th onre year old being carreid out. It has stuck in my mind. To this day when I remember that my eyes water and I think is this sentence fair for man capable of hatred of this magnitude - a person who called the 19 children among the 168 dead - a collateral damage? Not I personally think he should have been electrocuted.

He is gone today but I think about the living victims. For them a chair is always going to empty at the dinner table - for all time to come...

There is no doubt in my mind about his involvement. A lot my friends say I should be detached about all this. How can I be. I have a two year old baby. Would I be detached had he been there in that building that fateful day? NO. I DON'T THINK SO!

This is the reason I say that let us stop fighting about religion and focus on fighting terrorism

[viking]

The Mumbai bombings were of a secular nature it is widely percieved that Dawood Ibrahim bombed the buildings.So under such circumstances our indian tolerance has to take over.So obviously no convictions can be expected.

The govt would rather concentrate on the Sri krishna report than the bombings.

[aryaputra]

somehow, unless there are EYE witnesses present who saw him press the switch on the bomb, I cannot believe in sentencing someone to death. Sentence him to 168x100 = 16800 years in solitary confinement / rigourous imprisonment ...

What if McVeigh was part of a conspiracy? He could have been framed by his colleague, for all you know.

so in case, if his innocence is caught anytime in the future, We need not have to repent on killing an innocent man.

[Super Girl]

This is what McVeigh gave to Superintendent before his execution. It is his hand written statement -


Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

It an 1875 poem “Invictus,” an ode to strength in the face of suffering by William Ernest Henley. (MSNBC)

[AdiDravida]

McVeigh WAS guilty man, there is no doubt about it. But the State has no right to take his life. The best they could do is to keep him away from the society. If the State Takes his life, then what is the diffrence between him and the State.

If State Can not give life it has no rights to take one.

we have to believe that every man has a potential to reform and we have give justice based on that. State cannot participate in revenge

[Super Girl]

Adi,

There are some people who are beyond this stage of reforming.

Do you think Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer would have reformed? I don't think so. I equate McVeigh with them.

[Super Girl]

I forgot to add Charles Manson, Son of Sam and John Gacy.

[echarcha]

Every justice and government system has its flaws. India has its more than fair share of flaws and even a developed nation like USA has falws in their system.

But for the most part, all systems are meant for the good of the people. And systems work.

Now if you dont like the system, you can protest. You have the freedom of speech to voice your dissent. But bombing innocents just to prove your point is not at all a justified act. I fyou dont like the system and cannot live under it, then go away to some foreign land where you might like the system or way of life. Just dont kill people around you to prove your point!

About conspiracy theories: Timothy Mcveigh had clearly stated that there was no conspiracy nor a mysterious Mr. X who was behind these things. He did it all by himself and did it because he felt it was right.

So whatever anyone says - Killing innocents on basis of your personal beliefs and opinions is wrong and should be punished

[Super Girl]

Bulls eye!

[kate]

Originally posted by AdiDravida
McVeigh WAS guilty man, there is no doubt about it. But the State has no right to take his life. The best they could do is to keep him away from the society. If the State Takes his life, then what is the diffrence between him and the State.

If State Can not give life it has no rights to take one.

we have to believe that every man has a potential to reform and we have give justice based on that. State cannot participate in revenge

.... the society should take away his life. I think justice has finally been done to those who lost their lives 6 years ago.

Also, I agree with sutradhar 100%

[echarcha]

There are two groups for the Death Penalty - those for it and those against it.

Both make compelling arguments and have valid points.

But let me ask you all a question - Say, your loved one was brutally murdered by a person and punishment for the crime was death penalty. Then the murderer was caught and after much court trials and deliberation was sentenced to die? Would you like it or would you oppose the death penalty?

Anti-Death penalty advocates say that the government should not take away a life as it cannot give back a life.

That is the point exactly. The government cannot give back a life, but it surely can teach a lesson and warn other would-be criminals that murder is a serious and non-pardonable business.

And think of it from this angle - The vitom who died. Did he/she have a choice of life in prison or instant death? The victim just died a horrible death at the hands of a perverted and sick criminal mind. So dont you think its justice to also teach the perpetrator of the crime that whatever far-fetched or practical reasons motivated the crime, the punishment for taking away a life is to pay with your own life.

This is not barbaric as it sounds, because the perpetrator gets his due opportunity in courts and legal appeals and mercy petitions to prove his/her innocence. And many times a criminal goes scott free due to some legal technicalities or other similar reaosns.

But all this time, what about the person who died? Did he/she not have a right to live? Did he/she not deserve a chance to decide whether to live or die by a bomb detonated by a perverted mind?

Keeping a proven murderer/ terrorist behind bars for life is like saying - "So you bombed a building and killed innocents. Good.. Now we will be very compassionate and you can live on till you die despite your crimes. Just that you will be behind bars and fed and taken care of by tax-payers' money. Infact the person you killed also must have paid taxes and you will survive on the tax contributions of that person too. Hope you learn your lesson in jail" !:rolleyes:

What balooney! :down:

Infact, all the terrorists who bomb innocents should be blown away by the same bomb!:mad:

[viking]

I do not understand why are we agitated at the happenings in a foreign land.People die daily at the hands of terrorists in India cities are bombed but so many of us advocate peace with Pakistan,sporting events with Pakistan etc.No one seems to bother about the deaths in our own country.People here advocate dialogue and humane treatment of the arrested Kashmiris etc.

Have we suddenly forgotten what Bapuji had taught us? :D

Now, this is our home country or else why would arya put this up for debate!!!

[risingsun]

Originally posted by echarcha
There are two groups for the Death Penalty - those for it and those against it.

Both make compelling arguments and have valid points.

That is the point exactly. The government cannot give back a life, but it surely can teach a lesson and warn other would-be criminals that murder is a serious and non-pardonable business.

And think of it from this angle - The vitom who died. Did he/she have a choice of life in prison or instant death? The victim just died a horrible death at the hands of a perverted and sick criminal mind. So dont you think its justice to also teach the perpetrator of the crime that whatever far-fetched or practical reasons motivated the crime, the punishment for taking away a life is to pay with your own life.

This is not barbaric as it sounds, because the perpetrator gets his due opportunity in courts and legal appeals and mercy petitions to prove his/her innocence. And many times a criminal goes scott free due to some legal technicalities or other similar reaosns.

But all this time, what about the person who died? Did he/she not have a right to live? Did he/she not deserve a chance to decide whether to live or die by a bomb detonated by a perverted mind?

Keeping a proven murderer/ terrorist behind bars for life is like saying - "So you bombed a building and killed innocents. Good.. Now we will be very compassionate and you can live on till you die despite your crimes. Just that you will be behind bars and fed and taken care of by tax-payers' money. Infact the person you killed also must have paid taxes and you will survive on the tax contributions of that person too. Hope you learn your lesson in jail" !:rolleyes:

What balooney! :down:

Infact, all the terrorists who bomb innocents should be blown away by the same bomb!:mad:

I beg to differ dear mr. echarcha. if death penalty was supposed to deter would be murderers, terrorists, then we would not have had Mc vegih case at all. I am sure we have had numerous hangings before. numerous death penalties before. did that deter Mc vegih? nope, it did not. how many killers think of death penalty before committing the crime?

now about life imprisonment. what i personally think is that death penalty is death in 5 minutes. life imprisonment is death, everyday, every instant. it is a life in a hell, living in a cage 8 by 10 ft even toilets in the open anybody can and does see you doing it all, living the life inder constant observation, not seeing a siceity, all you have for company are other criminals. that life is hell. I dont know about others but i am sure people in prison for 14 years would not think of other crime.

[Netra]

Sometime back I was asked to sign a petition initiated by Amnesty International prohibitting death penalty. The following thoughts came to me:

If a person is wrongly accused or framed, we cannot rectifiy our mistake if we give him the death penalty.

On the other hand, if death penalty is banned the following will occur:

Terrorism will prosper. Co-terrorists will hijack planes, hold people at ransom in exchange for the terrorists who are being held prisoners. According to me terrorists should be shot at sight.

It is a high risk to hold criminals like a serial killer in prison, the risk being that if he escapes, he is a danger to the society. A similar case happened in Belgium some years ago. A child molester *** murderer was caught and put behind bars. After some time he managed to escape. Fortunately he was re-arrested before he could commit any more crimes. But imagine if he wasn't!

Needless to say that I refused to sign the petition.

Originally posted by risingsun
now about life imprisonment. what i personally think is that death penalty is death in 5 minutes. life imprisonment is death, everyday, every instant. it is a life in a hell, living in a cage 8 by 10 ft even toilets in the open anybody can and does see you doing it all, living the life inder constant observation, not seeing a siceity, all you have for company are other criminals. that life is hell. I dont know about others but i am sure people in prison for 14 years would not think of other crime.

.... and why should a tax payer like me support a lifer???

In US prisons have TV and prisoners are allowed to smoke and meet their relatives. It is OK for smaller crimes but not for the type done by McVeigh.

... and I agree with the logic given by Netra!!

[Netra]

Originally posted by risingsun


I beg to differ dear mr. echarcha. if death penalty was supposed to deter would be murderers, terrorists, then we would not have had Mc vegih case at all. I am sure we have had numerous hangings before. numerous death penalties before. did that deter Mc vegih? nope, it did not. how many killers think of death penalty before committing the crime?



Suryoday, you can be sure that if death penalty is totally done away with, the crime rate will rise. Why do you think the crime rate in Saudi Arabia is negligible? Why can people leave their shops open and not be afraid of being burgled? Take away the Shariah law of chopping of a thief's hands, and the burglery rate will go up in Saudi Arabia.

[risingsun]

Originally posted by eNRI


.... and why should a tax payer like me support a lifer???



why should a tax payer like you support anything Mr Enri? why should you support other criminals in jail? why should you support roads that you do not use? why should you support fu(cking missions to Mars? faltu baate kartay (hutiya.


and Netra jee, have death penalties deterred terrorists? if it had we would not have had bloody kandahar. death penalties have been there since so long. why hasn't it deterred the today's criminals? about the molester you are talking, why should people then support the police who are lax in their duties? how could they let that bastard slip away? why not make his whole life hell in prison?

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra


Suryoday, you can be sure that if death penalty is totally done away with, the crime rate will rise. Why do you think the crime rate in Saudi Arabia is negligible? Why can people leave their shops open and not be afraid of being burgled? Take away the Shariah law of chopping of a thief's hands, and the burglery rate will go up in Saudi Arabia.

thats bullshit, dont compare chopping off hands with death. chopping off hands is far far worse than taking away life. you take away someones hands and his life gets a hundred times harder. you take away his life and everything is over in few minutes.

[Netra]

Suryoday, life is not as hard as you think for these hard core criminals. They become Dadas in prison and molest the junior prisoners and turn their lives into hell. The wardens turn a deaf ear to the cries of the young prisoners.

Please also read my last post about crime rate in Saudi Arabia.

[Netra]

Originally posted by risingsun


thats bullshit, dont compare chopping off hands with death. chopping off hands is far far worse than taking away life. you take away someones hands and his life gets a hundred times harder. you take away his life and everything is over in few minutes.

If it was that easy, why do people who are given the death penalty appeal for a lighter sentence? It should be the other way round. People who are given life should appeal for the death penalty. People are always afraid of death.

[risingsun]

i have replied to that post too.

now you say they become dada in prison, i'd still say their life is hell as compared to what we live and even as compared to the quick death they get in death penalty. and do you think they will be able to sustain their dadagiri in prison for life? nope, 4years 5 years after that once their power reduces, as younger and more powerful prisoners come into jail what do you think will happen.

Again why do the jail authorities allow this to happen? whose fault it is? why should you 'support' such authorites by paying your tax?

about laws in saudi, i do not know. but i do surely know that i will prefer to die rather than lose my hands. meaning if death penalty is punishment to theft i would not be as afraid as i would be if punishment is chopping off my hands. get it?

[Netra]

Suryoday the choice is not between loosing your hands and getting beheaded. The choice is between getting beheaded and going to prison for 14 years. Punishment for capital crime. For thefts the choice is between loosing hands and going to prison. I think in both cases a person would prefer to go to prison.

BTW could you answer my question as to why people don't appeal when they get life imprisonment in favour of death penalty? Like you say it takes only 5 minutes.

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra


If it was that easy, why do people who are given the death penalty appeal for a lighter sentence? It should be the other way round. People who are given life should appeal for the death penalty. People are always afraid of death.

thats besides point. we are not talking who is afraid of what. we are talking of what is more effective punishment.

still i will say,
i am sure after some years in prison eveyrbody thinks death is better than this.
now people may also be asking for jails rather than death because they have hope that some day they will come out of it. You remove that possibility and see.

[Super Girl]

All of you against capital punishment are thinking only of the victims- that is the guys who is dying as a result... You say they might have destroyed a life, but that doesn't entitle him to have his life taken away....


Well, have you ever thought how many lives are destroyed if just one person dies... It is pointless arguing about leniency here. Remember, the issue about Kashmir when a politician's daughter was kidnapped by terrorists and they asked their fellow terrorists be released for her safety. If these guys had already been killed due to capital punishment, some wimpy politician wouldn't have had to release the dreaded guys to save his daughter. So much for saving lives.

Viking,

This is not about being in foreign matters. Remember we are all staying here, so it does concern us. I love India, please make no mistake about that, but for all intents and purposes this is my home now. I am a tax payer here, a registered voter and so I have every right to be concerned about it. I do not believing in being a pseudo, I know what is good about India and what isn't, just as I know that we have no intentions of going back to India for right now. All of us have been crying ourselves hoarse about terrorism in India, but you know, I know in fact everyone knows that as a long we have spineless people in New Delhi nothing is going to happen. Nothing has happened for 50 years and I do not believe anything will for the next 50 too.

Many of you will be upset and angry when you read this, but I do not want to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I do not believe in calling India good for all there is to it when somethings really do suck there. I prefer calling a spade a spade.

But then that's me..

[risingsun]

Could you answer this question?
will you prefer to die ?
or
to be in prison for the rest of your life with no hope of escape from it living in a 8 by 10 feet cell made of bars and the guard can see you shitting and doing anything, you can only see the sky that is visible from within the walls of prison. as Netra says you become a dada and antagonise some people then you 'rule' the jail for some time, then some one more powerful comes and you are reduced to shambles. now not only the present dada but also those whom you antagonized come for you. if you do not manage to become a dada at any point of time then as it is you are screwed any time some one becomes a dada. then again you do something to antagonise jail authorities you are given solitary, living in a dark windowless cell, only one small gap for food tray to come in. food too such that even dogs wont eat it. now you are living as a punishment like a vegetable, living because your lungs are working, because you cannot die whenever you wish to.

what do you prefer?

[AdiDravida]

Guys,

American society is a Brabaric one. it has proved in the case if McV and the US govt. which excuted him.

No one is born Criminal, its the circumstanc which makes him a criminal. Why is that me and you don't go about killing 168 people. Its because our parents, teachers, culture & society has given us good values. That has not happend on McV case.

So is the society not be blamed too. Should they be also executed for what he did?

My point is simple. If you can not give life, you have no rights to take life. It applies to McV and to the Govt.

[Super Girl]

sun,

have you ever heard of suicide in prison/custody?

BTW, I will prefer to live, I can at least be in touch with my family. NAd if do ahave a possibility of parole, like many have had, good for me!

[khopdi]

Originally posted by viking
GPeL Said:


Kyo re chadha rahela hai kya????...that reminds me of the saying
"Aap age badho ham kapde samhalte hai"



"Aap kapde samhaaliye, hum kapde pahnne waali kanya ko samhaalte hain"

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Super Girl
sun,

have you ever heard of suicide in prison/custody?



goes on to prove my point.

death is certainly more preferable than life in prison. i.e. one will be more afraid of life in prison than he will be of death which means life imprisonment will be a more effective punishment than death, life imprisonment would act better as a deterrant than death penalty, it would act as a better punishment than death penalty, right? so death penalty should not be there, right?

now for people like you who would like to live like a vegetable in touch with family, i am sure you would never dare to commit a crime heneious enough to merit death sentence. so you would never get a choice. not to mention the fact that MAYBE your family would prefer not to be in touch with you after all. dont you think that a relative, a close one at that, in prison is more of a torture for someone than if he/she is dead?

[khopdi]

Originally posted by Super Girl
sun,

have you ever heard of suicide in prison/custody?


koi aur kitne din haath se kaam chala sakta hai >> isse accha hai to committ suicide !!

[Super Girl]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Excuse me????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[khopdi]

you are excused !!

[Netra]

You are going to be surprised by my answer, Surya, but I prefer to die than spend time in prison. In fact if I was given the life sentence, I would appeal for a death sentence.

[Super Girl]

Khopdi,

ever wonder why some guys like you are referred as a Lech?

[khopdi]

some, not all !! waise lech-wech kaa maane kya hai ?? humain to angrezee aati naheen ..//

[Super Girl]

lech = lewd = Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful.
Obscene; indecent.

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra
You are going to be surprised by my answer, Surya, but I prefer to die than spend time in prison. In fact if I was given the life sentence, I would appeal for a death sentence.


no i am not surprised. in fact that is what i mean to say. doesn't it mean that you are more afraid of life in prison than death? doesn't it mean that for you life in prison would be a more effective punishment than death? or for that matter wont it be a better deterrant? what would deter you from a crime, life in prison or death. compared to death, certainly life in prison. thats what you are saying....contradicting yourself, ain't you?

[Netra]

Surya, for me, punishment is not as important as prevention of further crimes. Take the example of the IA hijack from Nepal. If the terrorists were killed in the first place, the plane would not have been hijacked.

Same is the case with serial killers. So long as we don't have fool-proof prisons, we need the death sentence to prevent further killings.

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra
Surya, for me, punishment is not as important as prevention of further crimes. Take the example of the IA hijack from Nepal. If the terrorists were killed in the first place, the plane would not have been hijacked.

Same is the case with serial killers. So long as we don't have fool-proof prisons, we need the death sentence to prevent further killings.

i have written in my previous post taking your previous post as a base how life in prison can be more of a deterrant than death penalty.

so now are you shifting the focus of discussion from "justification of death penalty" to "how strong a prison should be"?

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra
Surya, for me, punishment is not as important as prevention of further crimes. Take the example of the IA hijack from Nepal. If the terrorists were killed in the first place, the plane would not have been hijacked.

Same is the case with serial killers. So long as we don't have fool-proof prisons, we need the death sentence to prevent further killings.

i have written in my previous post taking your previous post as a base how life in prison can be more of a deterrant than death penalty.

so now are you shifting the focus of discussion from "justification of death penalty" to "how strong/secure a prison should be"?

and where is the taxpayer who does not want to support lifers?

[Netra]

Surya, if you have read my earlier post, the one to which eNRI has agreed to, I have been talking only about prevention of further crimes. That is the reason I have not signed the petition by Amnesty.

As to the other posts, I have only been arguing as to why people prefer prison to death penalty, the reason being the hope of getting out.

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Netra
Surya, if you have read my earlier post, the one to which eNRI has agreed to, I have been talking only about prevention of further crimes. That is the reason I have not signed the petition by Amnesty.

As to the other posts, I have only been arguing as to why people prefer prison to death penalty, the reason being the hope of getting out.

i thought we were talking justification of death penalty!!!

anyways, even for prevention of further crimes life imprisonment is more effective than death penalty as i have been saying.

[GpeL]

The only regret I have is they let them die painlessly (sodium pentatho et al.).. If I were to rule a country and this had happened there.. I would sentenced this dude to toturing to death and that to publically.. in a place where anyone and everyone can watch.. The torture should be proportional to the crime.. in this case.. he should have been kept alive one day per victim and 2 per child (atleast) and each day he would be administered torture till he reaches the doorstep of death and he would not be let to die..He himself will ask for death ultimately. The day the victims think he should be let die.. he should be tied and left on some anthill for them to do the honors. (if that does not deter others from commiting crimes.. nothing will.. so they too get similar punishments).

As for terrorists they should be asked questions and shot.. on second thought.. they should be shot first and then asked questions.


Hate me one and all for this but for me killing of innocents has no other punishment.. eye for an eye.

Oh and for this dude.. I would have made sure some one read him that "INVICTUS" to him while he was being adminsterd the medicine prescribed above..

[Big-G]

In my opinion, he should not have been given the death penalty. By giving him death penalty, the government exactly did what he was craving for - Martyrdom. Plus the media did their part by lacing the whole affair with an air of romance....his last statement "...master of my fate..captain of my soul".

He got what he wanted. Big media coverage, and a spectacular end. God knows, how many other people the whole process might have motivated.

A punishment befitting his crime should have been, life sentence in the worst of prisons, in the midst of sodomites, who would have made sure that he repents his mistake every breathing moment of his life.

[Super Girl]

Bull eye, Ravi!

Thats why I said electrocution for McVeigh!

[GpeL]

Electrocution is also too light a punishment for him.. I heard that it is also painless. (cos the high voltage fries your CPU before the pain can be processed by it and all associated fuse and circuit breakers, and circuitry in the head are also fried in an instant..)

[Super Girl]

You are right to a certain extent. Have you seen The Green Mile. If you have, then you will know what I am talking about. :)

[khopdi]

Originally posted by Super Girl
lech = lewd = Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful.
Obscene; indecent.

cheee, cheee, cheee !! aisee gandi baaten !! raam, raam. acche gharaane kee ladki ko aise baaten shobha naheen deti. ab to hamain bharath des jaakar ganga snaan karna padega. shubh-shubh bolo kanya.

[GpeL]

Green Mile.. ok I will try to watch it sometime.. I do not want to get movies this week cos My better half is preparing for some examinatiion and video dekhte hi vo kitab phek kar movie dekhne lag jaayegi.. madam aap mere biryaani wale thread me kuch secret bataane ka wada kiyaa tha.. (bout kids)..

[Super Girl]

Originally posted by khopdi


cheee, cheee, cheee !! aisee gandi baaten !! raam, raam. acche gharaane kee ladki ko aise baaten shobha naheen deti. ab to hamain bharath des jaakar ganga snaan karna padega. shubh-shubh bolo kanya.
khopdi,

that is what leches, like you, do. :)

[Big-G]

Originally posted by Super Girl
Bull eye, Ravi!

Thats why I said electrocution for McVeigh!

:D Better still, after he has been strapped on to the chair, someone should switch off the electric supply. Then the process should be completed using candles :D (eeeowwwww)

[Super Girl]

Originally posted by GpeL
Green Mile.. ok I will try to watch it sometime.. I do not want to get movies this week cos My better half is preparing for some examinatiion and video dekhte hi vo kitab phek kar movie dekhne lag jaayegi.. madam aap mere biryaani wale thread me kuch secret bataane ka wada kiyaa tha.. (bout kids)..

Will do after lunch. :)

[Super Girl]

Big G bhaiyya,

aap aa gaye!! :D :D

Dekho ye khopdi kaisi gandi gandi baate karta hai :D :D :D

[Big-G]

Originally posted by Super Girl
Big G bhaiyya,

aap aa gaye!! :D :D

Dekho ye khopdi kaisi gandi gandi baate karta hai :D :D :D

Khopdi...haraam key dhakkan, dubaaraa aisee baat ki toh aankhein nikaal key gotiyaan kheloonga :(

[aryaputra]

Originally posted by Netra
You are going to be surprised by my answer, Surya, but I prefer to die than spend time in prison. In fact if I was given the life sentence, I would appeal for a death sentence.

which is what McVeigh asked for.

should we have given him what he wants 'cause he killed 168 people?

[aryaputra]

Originally posted by Netra
Same is the case with serial killers. So long as we don't have fool-proof prisons, we need the death sentence to prevent further killings.


aha! so execution is a result of our ineffeciency to make fool-proof prisons!! ;)








kidding. don't take it to heart.

[khopdi]

Originally posted by Big-G


Khopdi...haraam key dhakkan, dubaaraa aisee baat ki toh aankhein nikaal key gotiyaan kheloonga :(

meri aanakhon kee kya zaroorat hai ?? tere gotiyon ka kya hua ?? hathauda maar dala kya ?? :D :D :D

[GpeL]

Khopdi one thing I will have to give it to you.. you take things in their stride man.. I like that spirit in ya.. :D

[khopdi]

sank soo, GpeL !! main chapton ke saath hoon !!

[GpeL]

Kidar.. US me ki china me?

[khopdi]

usa - united sapte (chapte apne aap ko sapte kehte hain) assn.

[GpeL]

Hum bhi un se ghira rahtaa hoon to I under the stand..

[GpeL]

Hum bhi un se ghira rahtaa hoon so I under-the-stand your poblem

[AdiDravida]

McVeigh blames it all on US's anti-Iraq posture
Timothy J. McVeigh

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/120601/detOKC03.asp

This essay dated "March 1998," was written by Timothy McVeigh, from his cell in the administrative maximum section of the federal prison in Florence, Colorado

[echarcha]

Originally posted by AdiDravida
Guys,

American society is a Brabaric one. it has proved in the case if McV and the US govt. which excuted him.

No one is born Criminal, its the circumstanc which makes him a criminal. Why is that me and you don't go about killing 168 people. Its because our parents, teachers, culture & society has given us good values. That has not happend on McV case.

So is the society not be blamed too. Should they be also executed for what he did?

My point is simple. If you can not give life, you have no rights to take life. It applies to McV and to the Govt.

Its is always convenient to shift blame on to someone else and to society at large.

Okay, I was denied an engineering college seat as I was not in the reserved caste. So I was angry at that time with the reserved category society and the government. The society I lived in did this to me. So what should I have done? Bombed the govt. colleges?? :rolleyes:

McVeigh says he found the Govt. to be anti-people due to many reasons, one of them being its supposedly soft stance on Iraq during the Gulf War. Now, our Indian govt. takes a soft stance on terrorists. This makes me mad. I blame the govt. for being too soft on terrorists. So what should I do? Bomb the parliament?:rolleyes:

A terrosist who kills innocent people with premeditated planning and cold-bloodedness is not your avergae petty thief who deserved a chance at improving by being incarcerated. A terrorist is a terrorist whose only intent at the time of the horrendous act was to kill people to send out his/her perverted message to whoever it was supposed to be.

If someone kills another person as an act of self defense or as an act of passion (like a husband killing his wife's paramour) is a different matter. Many killings happen in the heat of the moment. Though killing one or multiple people still amount to the same thing - MURDER. The law can look at how to punish for different circumstances by awarding life sentences or death penalty.

I think the issue here is Did Timothy McVeigh, who committed a terrorist style attack killing 168 people, deserve to die by lethal injection? Please dont confuse him with some ordinary criminal. we are talking about a terrorist!

[risingsun]

ohhhh noooo the whole debate again. Echarcha, dekh yarrr subah se debate kar ke thak gaya hoon, life imprisonment is a wrose punishment as compared to death penalty by lethal injection. If you have time, read on in this thread itself.

[echarcha]

One terrorist is put away so he cannot do further harm.. its over yesterday and the topic rests.

Anyway, each to his/her views.... I vote for strong deterrents like death penalty. Thats my opinion.... but then we are on eCharcha.Com - Loud and Proud Opinions! :D

[AdiDravida]

Dear echarcha,


Let us assume that your father, mother, brother or sister had committed a crime as grave as McV, would you still say that they must be excuted. You have to be very honest while answering this question.

I am not going to debate on your comment on reservation, which will be out of topic.

[viking]

Cant imagine a person who spits venom at Brahmins and who wishes death for them can be so compasionate towards a foreign mass murderer who is responsible for even the deaths of innocent children.

[AdiDravida]

Dear Viking, I can spit venom on Brahmins but would never wish for their death. If at all i fight for Dalits it for equality not for revenge.

A Life is life whether its a Foreign or Indian, wheather its Human or Animal. Living beings are living beings. They have to be respected for what they are.

No one has the right to take life. :smash:

[viking]

So you justify McVeigh's actions of taking the lives of 168 innocents is it?He has that right the law does not is it?

Besides were you not proposing ethnic cleansing of Aryans in some of your earlier postings?

[echarcha]

Originally posted by AdiDravida
Dear echarcha,


Let us assume that your father, mother, brother or sister had committed a crime as grave as McV, would you still say that they must be excuted. You have to be very honest while answering this question.

I am not going to debate on your comment on reservation, which will be out of topic.

About my folks being the terrorists or in a situation like Mcveigh: Honestly i will pray that their life is spared but then the law will take its action and death penalty may be given to them because though they are my dear ones, they did kill dear ones of other folks. So I have to emotionally suffer also for the actions of my folks. After all when dry grass burns, even wet grass catches fire goes an old saying.

About reservation topic: I mentioned that as on example, which is true in my case. I was a young college going student who had worked hard like everybody and was expecting a deserved seat as a just reward. But anyway, things were not the way I wanted and I coped with it. At that point i was angry with all these reservations and rules but I did not set out to bomb someone. Today I think that reservations are needed but there needs to be overhaul of the system like applying economic factors to reservations, etc. You are right this is not the thread to discuss that. But it was one example of what was affecting my thoughts at that time.

There are many issues which make an individual seethe with rage against the whole system. Open discussions, debate and maybe a peaceful strike (like the non-cooperation movement in Indian history) are the means of a citizen of democractic country to demonstrate one's grievances. Have we not all taken part in some form of protest while in college. We had protested to our principal about the state of the water coolers in our college and had stayed away from regualr classes for one whole day as a sign of protest. We got the coolers fixed eventually, but we did not bomb or ransack the college property.

Bombing and killing for whatever reason are nothing but terrorism and a dastardly act and deserve the harshest penalty possible.

[santasingh_in]

well killing is killing. whether there are 168 people involved or just one being executed. itwas wrong and unjustified for McVeigh to kill all these people. similarly it was unjustified for McVeigh to be executed. i know a lot of you out there might think otherwise, but think rationally, is killing one man enough for the 168 lives lost? no! there are still many people who want to McVeigh to be alive so that they can kill him for another 167 times, but that is not possible. a man dies just once. thats it. there is no hell and no heaven, everyone has to pay for what their wrongs right here in this world. if one can be punished a million times it is only in this world. they had their chance to kill Veigh not only another 167,but a million times. they chose to let him die just once. you need another 167 Veighs to satisfy yourself, for justice to be done. that is impossible. i want you to think with a calm mind. do not get swept away by the emotions of hatred.

[ManOfLaMancha]

This thread has been straying from McVeigh, to reservations, to loved ones committing crimes and what not. Okay, the basic question is whether capital punishment is valid or not. There is a unanimous (more or less) consensus that McVeigh was guilty. So no point arguing over that.

1. Everyone (well, almost) believes that human life is to be held in the highest esteem. There is nothing as important as the life of another person. And then, when a person kills another person, the state goes ahead and kills that person. I see an inherent contradiction in the act of capital punishment.
2. In several homicides, society is to be blamed (at various degrees) for the consequences. Capital punishment is a very convenient way to shift the blame entirely on the perpetrator without any introspection. Some people are born evil, some are made evil. Civilization has made rules which everyone is supposed to be lived by. But the rules are so fragile that even insignificant amount of will can break these walls. So killing someone to hide the faults?
3. Is capital punishment really acting as a deterrent? I think it has as much credence as nuclear deterrence. All the European countries have banned capital punishment. Did the Europeans go on a killing rampage the next day? I'd like to see if there has been a significant increase in homicides in Europe.
4. Making the whole argument personal. If my loved ones are the victims, maybe I'll want that bastard to be killed. Doesn't mean that I am right to ask so. I would be overtaken by emotions/revenge. But I think making such discussions personal doesn't take us anywhere.

As usual, my 2 cents.

[supada]

any body seen the movie A cry in the Dark...

see it in the light of this execution