Indo-Pak peace - If you were the PM, your peace initiatives would be..??

[echarcha]

Namaste eCharchans,

There has been some useful and some moronic discussion on India and Pakistan and Kashmir.

Let me ask you to think awhile and then pen your thoughts here.

The question is this:

AIM: Long term peace between India and Pakistan

If you were the Prime Minister of India or Pakistan (I know Pakistan right now has a military chief running the country), then what would your peace initiatives be?

What steps would you take to throw out the militants from Kashmir. What would you do to focus more on economic development of Kashmir? What steps would you take to throw out the militants who neither listen to Pakistan nor take up India's peace offerings but are Afghanistan sponsored?

In short - what would your plan be for peace and how would you go about implementing it.

Please NO Allah or Ram bashing, no moronic language. We are all grown ups and mature enough to avoid such juvenile non-sense

[laal_langot]

requires that DHOTI(PMO) be starched to the point you can slice meat with it.....and SALWAR(Home ministry) has to tighten to strangulation(of......).....basically two people can run the show provided they have the conviction and the majority.....there is going to be uproar in the thread over this suggestion I know but in times of crisis the best solution is to cut out the drawing room tete a tete and get straight to the field....

Model the response on the Punjab problem.....and the methods adopted to tackle it....I am not saying replicate it(human rights abuses etc.) but a similar structure and efort learning from that experience.....which means the use of brute force is a part of the solution...unfortunately....ultimately a free hand has to be given.....yesterday the APHC rejected the invitation to talks saying its a train to nowhere....now what does one do in this situation.....the NC says IT represents the people...APHC says IT does.....the extremist organisations(Hizbul Lashkar Harkat etc.) say they ARE THE PEOPLE.....

So there is only one solution and it will solve the problem one way or the other....and whatever the result we WILL have to accept it in that case....

A war like situation already prevails with attacks on paramilitary forces and the army everyday....so its not going to get any worse really

[kate]

Diplomacy will be my first weapon. Make friends all over the world and get Pakistan be declared a terrorism sponsoring country first and then make next moves.

However, I will not deny considering a compromise with militant Kashmiries on making Kashmir a separate nation.

[laal_langot]

So that soon after there are more diplomatic engagements for you since there are 24 other states waiting for your CONSIDERATION

[kate]

.. the number has gone up since more states were made recently.

Aap abheee tuk laal hee mein atke hue hein??? (stolen from OK)

[laal_langot]

Yep thats right three more states so the number's 27.so 3 more TEA PARTIES For you to attend

[viking]

This might be a better sounding solution to you.Why dont we all convert to Islam that way we dont even have to resort to diplomacy.We would have peace instantly.Whay say kate??:confused:
Better still disband our Army and hand over all our weapons to the Pakistanis.All women can start wearing Burkha that would be an excellent solution isnt it?
I'am sure you will appreciate it.

[viking]

WAR thats the solution a complete decisive war, a fight to the finish.Complete destruction of Pakistans war machine and destruction of their infrastructure and decimation of their self confidence is the only way out for us.

These Pakis hate us and hatred for Indians is the only way they survive as Pakistan.They want war and it's Indias responsibility to give them that.

Occupation of some Pakistani land and declaring that as disputed would help too.

The real rock n roll is what is needed.

[kate]

If the people of Kashmir want to be separated, give it to them. They don't look at mainland Indians as their brothers or as their families. Why should Indian soldiers be fighting for them?

I think this will finally bring some peace

[kate]

war creates more problems and no solutions.

[laal_langot]

In that case what if the remaining Indians(or atleast the majority of them) dont consider these people as Indians and so want them to vacate the land..and go to where their brothers are....would be much easier logistically since they are much lower in number compared to the numbers that would be involved if the state was to be TRIFURCATED.....

[viking]

Probably your secular self does not permit you to understand,the army Jawans are not fighting FOR the Kashmiri muslims they are fighting to keep that land for us Indians.

Scrapping article 370 flooding the valley with Hindu Indians and getting the economy there up and running
and highlighting Kashmir as more Buddhist and Hindu across the globe will go a long way in curbing the seperatist tendncies of the Muslims there.

[laal_langot]

So you think that those fighting the JIHAD against an enemy the rest of the people fail to see are sane gentlemen???I dont advocate full scale war but as an internal issue there should be the use of force that settles the issue one way or the other.coupled with diplomacy that makes sure brows are not raised just like it doesnt happen when the 34th parallel gets violated and Iraq sees some fireworks or Sudan does when AL Shifa becomes a factory that was

[smellyfinger]

echarcha,

I think we need further definition. OK, I am PM. But what kind of majority do I have in the parliament ?? Is it a joint majority .. absolute .. 2/3 majority ??

Unfortunately, these things do matter.

[laal_langot]

Well a workable and durable solution would only come about if there was absolute majority.....or atleast simple majority certainly.otherwise we would keep having the milli juli parliament ki milli juli concoction just like it is on echarcha.....all opinions and equal numbers of them and so little/no action.

[smellyfinger]

OK .. assumptions ..

1. I am PM. My party Smellyfinger Janata Party has at least 50% of the Lok Sabha Seats
2. I dont have and dont need support from any other party.
3. My party is behind me, and my MPs are not going to be bought away.

The approach would be a multi phase approach ..


Phase I - Good Doggy Policy (diplomacy)
Declare ceasefire. Stop all government sponsored human rights violations. Invite UN observers to spend time in Kashmir. Be open to talks from any non-terrorist organization. Take a hardline stand with any talk, dialogue or negotiation with anyone supporting terrorist activity.
Continuously invite Pakistan to dialogues. Advertise all the positive steps we are taking in the area to the whole world. Basically a huge PR campaign.

Phase II - The velvet glove (iron hand)
Announce a deadline for expiration of phase I approach. Announce to the world that terrorists in Kashmir have 90 days to leave or surrender. Same goes for Pak and afghanistan. Cease and desist in 90 days, or else.
Approach major world powers for support. Discuss possibility of UN peace keeping force in the valley with UN security Council.


Phase III - Aggressor (take off the glove)
Once the deadline expires, subtle change of role to aggressor. Proactive anti-terrorist measures, including forays into Pakistan. Tightening of border security. Opening of second, third, fourth fronts with Pakistan. Create skirmishes on Rajasthan, Punjab borders as well. (Dont let them concentrate on just one area). Blame Pakistan for all the fighting. Threaten full scale war.

Phase IV - Victory (war)

If needed. Declare a state of emergency and war, without full scale invasion. Just move a significant chunk of our forces to the borders and hold ground. Sooner or later, Pakistan will retaliate. Then open up the flood gates. All it takes is a spark. Once again, do not be the one to invade. Wait for them.

[kbg]

just one comment: how come aurangzeb,buttock et al disappear whenever a meaningful discussion actually takes place??:D

neways..the only language Pakistan understands is that of war..the iron hand in a velvet glove approach won't work with ppl like these..just think of the number of times India has taken measures to restore some semblance of peace in Kashmir and the way those bastards have responded each time..every act of peace on our part ultimately amounts to an act of aggression on their part..so we will have to take a hardline approach at some point of time or the other..and no time like the present.

[laal_langot]

Like you are the PM I am the Election Comissioner and I register your party....with a caveat though....the symbol will be the one as in your avtar and the symbol should stink on the ballot paper....rest is fine.....your strategy is pretty much on line....one thing though....we dont need to declare the ceasefire and then get them to tea and cookie diplomacy......call them for talks as we have now....and run the PR campaign alongside....those who come talk those who dont too bad....after that set a deadline and send in forces.....deadline expires start the clean up and then if need be and provoked to it cross the LOC

[smellyfinger]

ceasefire is for the benefit of the UN observers.. if there is no ceasefire, it is difficult to differentiate between aggressive anti-terrorism and human rights violations. There are going to be screw ups. We do not want that during this phase ..

[laal_langot]

yeah but why to aggress at all before the deadline elapse???UN can come in anytime and just play it down then.....no combing operations etc...in fact maybe even plant a few people to carry out non fatal attacks blasts etc...and then let the UN people make up their mind

[smellyfinger]

like I said .. it is difficult to control soldiers out in the field .. especially when they are the ones in the line of fire. They will shoot first and ask question later in some instances....

Anyways, nitty gritty details aside, do you think that this is a good approach. My point is that we can always threaten consequences, but everyone knows that we dont follow up. Like threatening a child .."Stop it, or I'll punish you". Well, it works once or twice. Then the child is going to try to see what the punishment is. If you dont follow up with the consequence, the threat will never work again. So, my policy would be, threaten something only if you are prepared to do it.

Opinions ??

[laal_langot]

Since I initially suggested modelling the response on the Punjab problem which is the most succesful anti insurgency operation(in terms of end results) so in Punjabi I shall say

Baccha agar dare na te phir chuttad laal karr deyo(thats just why I wear a LAAL langot)....te phir tatte tave to bithao....apne aap agli vaar kuchh vi karan to pehlaan dhui ton sochegaa.....

So the answer is absolutely....not an empty threat whatsoever....if they dont listen use anything from Bofors to Air raids and absoultely pulverise the guys....jise jo bhaasha samajh aati hai usi mein uss se baat karni padti hai

[smellyfinger]

laal paji,
thwade chuttadon to itni lattaan padi hain, ki langot da rang laal ho gaya si .. hai .. par ik gal kuch palle nahi padi .. yeh tatton aur tave di gal .. pai, tune aisi kaunsi galti kidi si ke baat tatton tak pahunch gayi ???

[laal_langot]

Did I read a thread about the optimal punishment for a rape???

Waise tatta(the t's as in tabla...now dont ask me who's the maestro who plays tabla with tattas) = garam.... not just ek hi thaili ke tatte fatte type....

So tatta tava = garam tava

And so that is the punishment bhaiya....pehle laal karo uske baad garam karo so that you have a perfect tandoori....

But we agree ke we have to do something about the backside....since front entrance se jaane mein results der se milne ke chances hain.....

[smellyfinger]

:D :D :D

[Gr8_Hindustani]

Hi;

The issues with Pak is not only over Kashmir. Be very sure that if we solve Kashmir there will be some thing else. I have seen muslims very closely and I know there breed. They hate hindus and they will continue to do so. So those of you who propose that we settle the issues peacefully are in for some very harsh realities.

Everyone knows what happened to the BUS DIPLOMACY. They, as their nature, back stabbed and gave us Kargil.

The only language they understand is force. And Israel has repeatedly proved this.

Moreover, before we even think of solving the problems with Pakistan we must solve our internal problems. Today, there are 27 states and people of each state consider people of other states as their enemy. There is division at every sphere of life: in the name caste, in the name region, in the name of language, you name it and we have it. So till we get united there is not going to be any peace. Have we ever considered why in the first place foreign forces are able to exploit our division? Because we do not take pride in our country, our culture, and our values. We love money more than we love our country.

So the solution will have to start with introspection and the first step should be "cross-migration." The government should make a law that if you are from, say Punjab you won't get a job in Punjab. In couple of years there won't be 27 different states and then no one will be able to break our unity and exploit our division

My two cents worth.

... and kick some butts there.

[Dhurandhar Bhat]

echarcha---I think most of the above posts are but a juvenile replies,and are driven by sentiments rather than rationale.
India is a great country,we have given peace love and non-violence to the civilization.Being the largest democracy read my lips-its a socialist ,secular satyagrahi land.
Violence,fanaticism is just not welcome here.Most of the posts are brain-drained NRIes who fail to be subtle.Sitting in an a/c environ in the US and failing to touch the soul of India (the dust and sweat and hardships) quoting Nietche and acting like Feurer is quite easy,what if your father,mother or wife/hubby dies in a war ???think about it.
If I would be the PM I would:
1.Pass a bill to ban all political parties in the name of religion.There's no place for parties like BJP in a secular country like India,we don't need another Godse.A corrupt congress is far better than desciplined BJP!!!

2.De-polarize all defense and paramilitary forces-increase more christians and muslims in defense administration!!this will erase the danger of producing an Indian parvez musharaf and eliminate the growing insecurity in these two communities.

3.Abolish reservation due to caste but retain due to economy.i.e no place for a rich dalit but place for a poor Hindu.

4.Agree for a trilateral talk on kashmir,and making pakistan accept to have a general election in both POk and J&k.Restoring democracy in Unified kashmir is the only solution,democracy not influnced by fear but true opinions of lakhs of innocent Kashmiris.Let the people of Kashmir decide---unified kashmir I mean.If India loose Kashmir pakistan has to loose the POK!!!!

5.Regarding pro-active policy its all big-wording ,I have been directly associated with Intelligentia and believe me India was always pro-active only now we are impotent under this BJP chaos--e.g. we always had a bomb but this pro-active policy gave pakistan a bomb too,we never had kargil like intrusion,,,we never had bangaldeshies raising their voice!!!

6.Last but not the least I'll be facist with things like imposing ban on more than two children,compulsory education and army training,NRIies will not be entertained here

... BJP is disciplined but not corrupt??

Think again!!!

>>>A corrupt congress is far better than desciplined BJP<<<

[viking]

Yes I accept your logic amazes me
But...

DurandarBhat Said:
If India loose Kashmir pakistan has to loose the POK!!!!
Whats the logic behind this please explain??:confused:
DB said:
De-polarize all defense and paramilitary forces-increase more christians and muslims in defense administration!!this will erase the danger of producing an Indian parvez musharaf and eliminate the growing insecurity in these two communities.
FYI Pervez Musharraf hails from the Pakistani Army maybe he would not have been where he is now if he were NOT in the army.And this seems to be a very great solution for a historical problem of mistrust which dates back to the medival times.Why did we not think of it??The solutiuon was so simple!!. :confused:

4.Agree for a trilateral talk on kashmir,and making pakistan accept to have a general election in both POk and J&k.Restoring democracy in Unified kashmir is the only solution,democracy not influnced by fear but true opinions of lakhs of innocent Kashmiris.Let the people of Kashmir decide---unified kashmir I mean
FYI There were elections held in Kashmir but most of the people stayed away either voluntarily or because of the fear of the gun.And by the way there is an elected government there headed by Mr.Farooq Abdullah how else do you want democracy there?.:confused:
Last but not the least I'll be facist with things like imposing ban on more than two children,compulsory education and army training
Army training for what???? we dont want to fight with anyone you are advocating only peaceful solutions I thought!!!!!!!:confused:
but this pro-active policy gave pakistan a bomb too,we never had kargil like intrusion
You mean to say that Pakistan developed the bomb only when India exploded it's devices?I thought it takes many years to develop a bomb even though it's only made from smuggled components.Also dont you think army training will amount to being pro active??

The gist of your message here is you want Congress to come to power.:eek:

We were discussing solution for the Kashmir issue not the good old days of the Congress when there was only peace and tranqility in the entire secular republic of India.

[tantric_yogi]

Never in the three hundred year history and discovery of Computers and intenet have so many wise, educated and intelligent people wasted so much time and evergy on a topic just to give Aurangia a hardon!

tantric trying to get off coffee....

[viking]

Wonder why AuNANGAzeb has not still stepped in!!!:rolleyes:

[Xandu]

Kate,

you dont give up a part of your nation just because your neighbor wants it. I want to have sex with you, now I am gonna declare war on your husband. Please give him some of your sound advice since war does always cause problems :D

Wot say?

X


Originally posted by kate
If the people of Kashmir want to be separated, give it to them. They don't look at mainland Indians as their brothers or as their families. Why should Indian soldiers be fighting for them?

I think this will finally bring some peace

[aurangzeb]

India should stop it's atrocities in Kashmir and de-militarise the whole valley.Then a UN supervised plebicite should be held.

Kashmir should then go to Pakistan.The people of non Muslim faiths might have to leave the region they will be allowed to live there minus voting rights.

Talks with local Kashmiri leaders should be held only with the participation of Pakistan.A compensation should be given by India in terms of money for salvaging the damaged economy of the Kashmiri nation.India has been responsible for the damage so it is liable to pay.

India will have to reconstruct all the damaged educational and medical facilities.

Only this will ensure peace in the region.

And Viking's useless comments are duly ignored.Frustration is the reason for such loose talk

Allah Hafiz

[Indian]

Originally posted by aurangzeb
India should stop it's atrocities in Kashmir and de-militarise the whole valley.Then a UN supervised plebicite should be held.

Kashmir should then go to Pakistan.The people of non Muslim faiths might have to leave the region they will be allowed to live there minus voting rights.

Talks with local Kashmiri leaders should be held only with the participation of Pakistan.A compensation should be given by India in terms of money for salvaging the damaged economy of the Kashmiri nation.India has been responsible for the damage so it is liable to pay.

India will have to reconstruct all the damaged educational and medical facilities.

Only this will ensure peace in the region.

And Viking's useless comments are duly ignored.Frustration is the reason for such loose talk

Allah Hafiz


OK .. India agrees for all the conditions of Aurangzeb ..and

Pakistanis will start calling kashmiris Mohajir.

Down with pakistani hypocrisy !

What did pakistan name the indian muslims who joined pakistan ?? Mohajirs right !!!
World knows how badly Mohajirs are treated.

You pakistanis downlook muslims from other countries and call for Islamic Unity. Isnt that Hypocricy ??
Pakistanis on the first hand should learn to be good muslims ..then only any muslim in the world can believe Pakistan.

[Xandu]

too much heroin this time aurangzeb??? :p

no point arguing with you on intellectual stuff, so lets talk about your love life. how's your goat? :D

[Indian]

Washington, April 29: The Bush administration quietly played host to a major conference on Kashmir in what is seen as an attempt to infuse some “new think” into ways of resolving what, it believes, is a potential flashpoint for an India-Pakistan nuclear confrontation.

The conference featuring leading academics and policy analysts on the subcontinent from the US, India and Pakistan was hosted by US Department of State’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research and supported by the Bureau of Policy Planning. Significantly, it was off-the-record and participants eschewed letting on what was discussed.

It was significant that not only was the meet sponsored by the administration, but it flew in many of the participants from India and England and from around the US

“I think it’s just an opportunity to bring out the ideas on Kashmir again and look and see if there is any new thinking. Get some discussion going and so on,” an official said. Another official said the rationale behind the conference was “to think out of the box. To let the new people in the administration know what is the issue. To try to think afresh. That was the basic idea.”

Four panels dealt with questions like: Will India be able to move toward a settlement of Kashmir without engaging Pakistan?; What price will India pay to exclude Pakistan from any dialogue it initiates with disaffected Kashmiris? How do the various Kashmir groups see themselves — as a nation, ethnic group, communal/sectarian group?

What kind of a Kashmir settlement do its different groups (Kashmiri Muslim, Pandit, Dogra, Sikh and Buddhist) envision?; What role can outside players assume in trying to settle the dispute? What will India and Pakistan allow them to do? Is outside facilitation indispensable, or will India and Pakistan ever be able to resolve their differences bilaterally? Will a Camp David approach work?

What are the ways the dispute could be settled? Can the Line of Control become the accepted international border? Are there any other solutions, like “soft borders” that could be acceptable to India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris?

The Policy Planning Bureau, in particular, headed by Richard Haas — who is close to Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, is expected to call the shots in developing policy toward South Asia and is envisaged to exercise much more clout and influence than the South Asia bureau.

[tantric_yogi]

Originally posted by viking
Wonder why AuNANGAzeb has not still stepped in!!!:rolleyes:
yeh lo aa gaya
yaar mangne ka to 10/15 million dollar mangne ka tha
manga bi to aurangia..
dat tere ki...;)

[nandini]

do u think that loads of ppl in pakistan think like aurangzeb or is he the only arsehole.
do u think nobody in pakistan looks at the kashmir problem rationally?
aurangzeb has some guts to do whatever bakwaas he can think of he types it actually.

[tantric_yogi]

Nandini
unfortunately
yes
aurangia does speak on behalf of majority of them..

[Gr8_Hindustani]

Dear Dhurandhar;

I wanted to write a long reply to your post but fortunately I found a very good article. Hope this will wake you up out of your somber and hopefully out of your ivory tower of "intelligensia."


http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/30franc.htm

I also do not agree with your views on NRIs. First of all, integrity is not bound by where you live but by how you feel about your country. I have seen people living in India and selling the so called "soul of India" on every nook and corner of India. How can you then doubt the integrity of NRIs just cuz they happen to live in the US or any other country?

[kate]

Originally posted by Xandu
Kate,

you dont give up a part of your nation just because your neighbor wants it. I want to have sex with you, now I am gonna declare war on your husband. Please give him some of your sound advice since war does always cause problems :D



Xandu, if you want to have sex with a woman and she agrees, then why not? If she wants and her husband does not let her, her husband should divorce her and not beat her up instead or lock her up in a room. If Kashmiries want to separate from India to go to Pakistan, shouldn't India divorce Kashmir and let it go.

Glad you understood it. That's what they say about analogies - it explains a difficult thing in a language that a one understands. How true !!!

[Netra]

Kate, in your and Xandu's example, if the woman doesn't want to stay with her husband, no doubt she should leave him. But she should not take property belonging to her husband with her. If the Kashmiris want to go to Pakistan, they should go but not take Kashmir with them.

On another thread, I took the example of USofA. If the people of Alaska want to be independent will they get it?

[kate]

and not to the mainland.

Yes, in USA any state can separate from the union and it has happened just before the civil war in the mid 19th century.

[Netra]

Kate, excuse my ignorance but who or where does it say that Kashmir belongs to the people of Kashmir? Is this true of other states in India also?

[viking]

Originally posted by kate
and not to the mainland.

Yes, in USA any state can separate from the union and it has happened just before the civil war in the mid 19th century.
Land belongs to them says who???Take a walk Kate.
America belonged to the Native Indians and see what happened to them.You are nothing but a selfish person.I pity you so much.
Your heart does not bleed for the displaced Hindu and Sikh population.You sit far away in USA and talk this nonsense.I only have pity for you.It's India's good fortune that people like you are away from India.Phew!!
By the way why do you relate India's problems to the USA,dont you have better things to do??or your imagination and creativity does not permit you to go any further?

[Netra]

Viking, it was I was brought up the comparison between USA and India. Not Kate.

[zaman]

Hai Netra.
I have been blammed by a large number of echarchan here in this site, taht i had been brainwashed by some fundamendlists. What is going on, some of broadminded people here on this site.

Kashmir.---------------------------------------
would you replay it.
echarchans are not here in this site at this time.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai, don't pay attention to people who hurl insults. You are entitled to your views and people should respect them. Please go ahead and express your feelings.

[zaman]

Hai Netra.
You have already said that the Aurangzaib is a foolish. He is not speaking on the behalf of a large number of people of Pakistan.

There must be conversation on fundamedalists.
What would you say.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai, you are mistaken. I never said that Aurangzeb was foolish. Must be someone else who said that. Actually I don't think I have ever mentioned Aurangzeb's name in any of my threads.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai, sorry. I did mention Aurangzeb once but that was to thank him for showing respect to women.

[zaman]

So Netra.
Please come to point. Who are actully fundamedalists, our respectable some echarchans or the people who are fighting for their right, right of living in peace.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai you must fight for your rights but you should not kill innocent women and children who are defenseless. Yeh to kayarta ki nishani hain. Why are you chasing away the Hindu Pundits? Kashmir belongs to them also.

Second point. If you want a plebiscite in Indian occupied Kashmir, there should also be one in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. What business did Pakistan have to sell off one part of Kashmir to China? They should buy it back. If only the wish of the people had to be taken into consideration, then Pakistan should hold a plebiscite in Sind and Baluchistan also. They also want to be independent.

[zaman]

Yes Netra.
But they are fighting with center like Naga Land, Kashmir, Punjab, Assam etc etc.
You have said the Paksitan held Kashmir. I think that not only Kashmir but also Northerian Area of Pakistan have also must be decided according to the wishes of the people of that land.
You have said that then Sind and Bulchastan also must be givin seprate land. I think that there is some misunderstanding between some comunities. But this is temporary, Punjab is being blamed by some papers and e-media, but this not reality. This is not the topic so you have menshioned about the Hindu Pundits, and Sikhs, reality is this taht Indian Army is killing and looted the Kashmiries ( Hindus and also Sikhs ).

Netra.

[Dzango]

Kashmir issue can be solved only when both India & pakistan have strong democratic governments or dictators. Isssue will be settled once for all.

[zaman]

Hai Dzango.
I think there is not issue of kashmir witch must have been resolved by the government of India and Pakistan. I think taht this is violation of freedom of a peace loving nation(Kashmir). That must be stopped by the Indian Government.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai, It is you who is out of reality. Go to Jammu and see for yourself the amount of Hindu Pundits who are living in tents. If you don't believe me ask Shringarey who is a Muslim and is doing his best to improve the condition of these Hindus who have been driven away from their own homes by the Pakistani militants. I am not saying that the Military is innocent. But the amount of Hindus has gone down drastically in Kashmir whereas the population of muslims has not.

[zaman]

Hai Netra.
Maybe this si reality but you are so innocent that Hindu Pundat who are living in tents are not because of Millitants. Simply would you belive it's your government who is involve in this horibal act.
Infact it is the kashmiries who are forced to leave their own homeland and are facing the lots of problems in the tents her in Paksitan.
People are comming from the Kashmir with out their legs and eyes etc etc. You are missguided by your stuped e-media.


That's the Fact i think---------------------------.

[Netra]

Zaman bhai, that's exactly what the Indians are saying about you that you are being guided by your stupid e-media.

By the way did you give freedom to Bangla Desh when they asked for it? If you didn't why do you expect India to give independence to Kashmir? Jo aapne Bangla logon ke saath kiya woh thik tha, lekin jo India Kashmiri logon ke saath kar rahi hain, woh thik nahin hain.

By the way, you still haven't answered me why Pakistan sold a part of Kashmir to China?

[zaman]

Yes Netra.
I did not caus that's also a stupied question to me. Infact reality is almost reflex of it. The Great China have given a resanable area of land to Paksitan.
You have asked me about Bangladesh. I think there must be some Bangladeshi on this site. Will you please aske from one of them. I think that is the right way to salve this question.

Netra as all echarchan belive that India is a

almost biggest democratric country in the world. It also have some responsobalities like tolrance.

Tolrance ----------------- tolrance i choose a wrang word.

[Randheer]

Zaman Bhai,just think what Pakistan is doing to us and recently Bangladesh did can they Dream of doing the same to israiel and
then talk of tolerance.
Believe me the Separatist momnts are nothing but a way of idle minded persons to make money,persons who can't do anything constructive.Such people are there both in India and pakistan
:) :) :)

[Netra]

Yes there is tolerance, but with a limit. Look at it this way: If India gives independence to Kashmir, all other rich States will start asking for independence. This will put the poor States in bad position.

Let me ask you a question. If you were a patriotic Indian how would you have solved a problem. Would you have given away Kashmir? Please give me an honest answer.

Thanks.

[Randheer]

Netra..,
Just remember there is no difference between the so called Freedom Fighters and Bombay style Mafias.
Bombay style Mafias are most honest.
Their main aim is money,nothing else,all the separstist moments will die their natural death,
In Kashmir they are combining Religion with their greed and poor Kashmiris like other Muslims are getting Fooled away on religion

[Randheer]

Netra,its take thousands of years to build a country,they are not produced in Assembly production Line,If Rich states become a Country,Tommorow those rich states would again broke up.Creation of three new states have brought this point into people's inds.
read my thread in Indian Politics.
Nothing is going to happen.

[soochak]

I think the people of Kashmire should decide whether they want to be indpendent or part of any country...the Kashmir problem is very complicated...it was annexed under special status into India. People don't have similar sentiments in Kashmir as the rest of India has about India.

We can see this right ot self-determination even in the North East India. The State (I mean the country) has to ensure that every part feels belonged. North-East students that I have interacted with don't feel like they are part of India.

Who's responsible for this? In a country like ours we need to take special care in feeling united because the fact is we are a diverse country and no matter how many songs of unity we sing, we might not feel belonged.

soochak

[zaman]

Yes Netra.
You said that if you are a Indian. Netra their is some morel values in any human beaing.
Either it's Indian or Paksitani, every person must have some respect of these values. I think that dignity of a human is more important than any country.

[Randheer]

First of all creation of pakistan was wrong,Countries are not created just like that.
That country has no History.If you read their History,it only tries to prove why India never existed as a country.
Ok if created on the basis of religion,then it should have been complete i.e. all the muslims in Pakistan and all the Hindus in India.
If Pakistan is quoting the partition based on religion then it should be complete,it can take Kashmir but it should also be ready to take all the muslim Population from India.

Finally I also believe which many of you won't like that interference of India in Bangladesh was not correct

[Netra]

Randheer, it is not only Muslims who get carried away, but also Hindus. Look at the way they get carried away by what BT says. Little do they realise that BT and his goons have done plenty of harm to Hindus. Look at the way the TNites get carried away by Jayalalitha even though they know that she is corrupt as hell. Same thing with Laloo Prasad Yadav. If Pakistan is giving trouble from outside, these people are eating us from inside.

You people in Andhra are lucky to have somebody like CB Naidu who has done more for his State than any other CM I know.

[tantric_yogi]

COULD THIS ZAMAN BE A SLIGHTLY CIVILIZED AURANGIA.....?

AURANGIA DISAPPEARS AND lo and behold ZAMAN APPEARS
NOW SOON ZAMAN WILL DISAPPEAR AND AURANGIA
WILL APPEAR.....when?

[Randheer]

Originally posted by soochak
I think the people of Kashmire should decide whether they want to be indpendent or part of any country...the Kashmir problem is very complicated...it was annexed under special status into India. People don't have similar sentiments in Kashmir as the rest of India has about India.

We can see this right ot self-determination even in the North East India. The State (I mean the country) has to ensure that every part feels belonged. North-East students that I have interacted with don't feel like they are part of India.


soochak

No Soochak,Very soon the countries are going to be ruled by CorPorate ethics,you have to prove whether you are worthy for the country.If you don't like the Country,get lost from it.
Look eNRI also doesn't like India,Many of us don't like.
I am happy with attitude of eNRI,you don't like the country you can go abroad and settle where ever like you.
People like eNRI have fought hard and have made a place for them abroad.

[Randheer]

See you all...
India is such a great country,You all study in subsdicized education and go abroad for your betterment.
Unlike Countries like China India doesn't forces you to pay back,what else you want.
I think India people are the most cheap and
selfish people in the world.
so much Freedom still people crib

[Netra]

Soochak, but then the Tamils also don't feel they belong to India. And Bal Thackre has threatened to separate from India as he considers India his private property. As Randheer says, if people are not happy, they should go away.

[Randheer]

What I think People of Kashmir,North East are pampered alot and thats why they don't want to fight the hard way out.Most of them are lazy people who don't want to work hard and blame India for their plight.
They are lucky they are in India.
You could imagine how China and USA could have
sidelined them,have they been in their Country.
Look what happened to Red Indians and Tibeteans.

Finally I will conclude saying that if a small country like Srilanka could not agree to partition of its and fight for
it why can't we.

[zaman]

Friends.------------------------------ :)


I have given a topic for discussion for you. So carry on and think with cool mind.------------ :cool:

[Randheer]

Originally posted by Netra
Soochak, but then the Tamils also don't feel they belong to India. And Bal Thackre has threatened to separate from India as he considers India his private property. As Randheer says, if people are not happy, they should go away. .

Theese people also didn't felt a part of British India,what have they done to British India,Practically nothing.
All this Freedom Moment is crap.
India got freedom only after Britishers wished.
All this is because of too much Freedom in India,nothing else.
Look at China,they also have Cultural Diversity,
and Netra because of this attitude only we bloody Indians have remained slaves for so long,nothing else:eek:

[Randheer]

Netra believe me...
It is the right time,India seriously needs a Dictator,
Every body will become OK.
Indians are not used to Democracy.
Nothing else

[laal_langot]

Zaman bhai...aap baat cheet ke zariye aise masle ka hall kyun chaahte hain jiske liye hazaaron mujhaid apni jaan ki kurbaani de rahein hain??humhaare sochne se kya hoga....aakhir to mujahid hi humhein samjhayeingay dhang se..isliye jabb Shabbir Shah jo Kashmir ke sabse puraane khaalis leadaraaan mein se hai ne Delhi KC Pant se milne ke liye apne numaayeinday bheje to Pro Pakistan Mujahidon ne use gaddaar ka khitaab de diya hai aur use dhamkiyaan de rahein hain..

So sochna kya abb to dekhna hai..

[Netra]

Randheer, you took the words right off my mouth.

Cheers

Netra

[kate]

Originally posted by Netra
Kate, excuse my ignorance but who or where does it say that Kashmir belongs to the people of Kashmir? Is this true of other states in India also?

The land belongs to people who live there. Remember, the serbian war between Milosevich and NATO about two years back? What was it about? Because Serbians were driving the ethnic Albanians out of their land. The Soviet Union has divided and the new countries formed. Pakistan could not keep dissident Bangladesh with it.

My point is only that if India has to sacrifice its soldiers to keep Kashmir within its international borders and on top of it kashmiries are not with us, then is it worth fighting for?? India has given special status to Kashmir from the day of its formation! Why was it not given to other states like Bihar or TamilNadu or Gujrat? Kashmir is like a son/daughter in the family who puts a condition of special status, contributes least to the family and threatens to separate and the rest of the country is working hard to delay the separation - sending soldiers to battle fields and collecting their mutilated dead bodies to put war medals on.

To those who say that more states will demand separation once Kashmir sets precedence, my answer is has any other state asked for special status in 54 years of independent India?

[Netra]

Randheer, my previous message referred to your message concerning too much freedom given to Indians.

As far as dictator rule is concerned, I am not sure. Imagine having a dictator like Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler.

I truly believe we should follow Israel's example. A tiny country but proving more than a match for its Arab neighbours.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by kate


The land belongs to people who live there. Remember, the serbian war between Milosevich and NATO about two years back? What was it about? Because Serbians were driving the ethnic Albanians out of their land. The Soviet Union has divided and the new countries formed. Pakistan could not keep dissident Bangladesh with it.

My point is only that if India has to sacrifice its soldiers to keep Kashmir within its international borders and on top of it kashmiries are not with us, then is it worth fighting for?? India has given special status to Kashmir from the day of its formation! Why was it not given to other states like Bihar or TamilNadu or Gujrat? Kashmir is like a son/daughter in the family who puts a condition of special status, contributes least to the family and threatens to separate and the rest of the country is working hard to delay the separation - sending soldiers to battle fields and collecting their mutilated dead bodies to put war medals on.

To those who say that more states will demand separation once Kashmir sets precedence, my answer is has any other state asked for special status in 54 years of independent India?

JO TAB NAHIN HUA WO AB HOGA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chalti ka naam gadee , badhti ka naam daadhi , main khilari tu anari!!!!!!! :D

[Randheer]

No Netra..
A mild dictatorship like the Chinees have,a responsible Dictatorship.
Look how Chineese have managed themselves.
And look at the attitude of Chineese people and compare to those of Indians.
Indians are not used to Democracy
:(

[Netra]

Randheer, who would you suggest as a Dictator of India?

[Randheer]

We Could follow a Corporate like System in India,with CEO's changing,China follows this roughly,Russia didn't and hence it failed.
Performance should be Focussed.Those who contribute positively only should be respected.
No Pampering

[laal_langot]

Kate why dont you conduct a survery in J&K.....I mean you know so much about the sentiment of the Kashmiri people sitting in the US wonder if you were there we would have the problem at all???

Maam try and let some ideas percolate into your intellect...I have already told you its not a situation where everyone wants what the people of the valley want....the people of the valley or rather a section of them claim to represent the entire population of J&K and want to determine their future???even that section is not agreeable as to their demands and direction....the AHPC wants something the militants something else and the bosses of some of these groups who are located outside India want something else...and yeah none of them have bothered to ask the PEOPLE what they want...

[Netra]

Randheer, who will decide when the Corporate like System will change? Do we get to elect the system? If yes we are back to the same problem. If not, who decides whether the system is running or not?

[kate]

langoat,I am talking about Kashmir and why don't you do a survey and post results here. Has the Indian govt. ever wanted to have survey done in Kashmir? Because they know that the survey results will favor separation.

Don't talk nonsense although you are entitled to!!

[Randheer]

If it Changes it will be Democracy,In China people join the Part and then rise in rank to rule the country,got it

[kate]

Originally posted by Randheer
We Could follow a Corporate like System in India,with CEO's changing,China follows this roughly,Russia didn't and hence it failed.
Performance should be Focussed.Those who contribute positively only should be respected.
No Pampering

Democracy is the best.

[Randheer]

Kate,
Only kashmir valley will support,not the whole

[laal_langot]

Kate whose talking what here I levae ti to the others to decide since for me Life couldnt be better but Knowledge certainly could be....

As for the survey since you are talking big here goes.....I was at a lecture by Dr Sumantra Bose of the international affairs department of the London School OF Economics couple of weeks back who happens to be a renomned expert on SOuth East Asia and the subcontinent in particular(though he couldnt be wiser than thee could he???)....and this is what he has to say "not more than 20% of the entire population of the state of J&K wants separation.....they want PEACE....the sepratists are focusses in the valley and even there they dont make as much of an impact as expected by outsiders if you adjust for demographics".....and why dont you read the news more than posting here....I just mentioned about Shabbir Shah in an earlier post and the AHPC and not once have you been able to come back with anything concrete to answer that.....apart from the one liner.......EVEN THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR ARE NOT WITH THE INDIAN SOLDIERS.....anything more to add thy majesty?

p.s. You are entitled to talk sense...in fact I would expect you too

Originally posted by Randheer

Look eNRI also doesn't like India,Many of us don't like.
I am happy with attitude of eNRI,you don't like the country you can go abroad and settle where ever like you.
People like eNRI have fought hard and have made a place for them abroad.

[Randheer]

Originally posted by kate


Democracy is the best.

No Kate,just use your intellect,think in a cool way,
All of India's problems are because of Democracy only and lack of performance Oriented Culture.
Just Think

[Senorita]

Originally posted by laal_langot
Kate why dont you conduct a survery in J&K.....I mean you know so much about the sentiment of the Kashmiri people sitting in the US wonder if you were there we would have the problem at all???

Maam try and let some ideas percolate into your intellect...I have already told you its not a situation where everyone wants what the people of the valley want....the people of the valley or rather a section of them claim to represent the entire population of J&K and want to determine their future???even that section is not agreeable as to their demands and direction....the AHPC wants something the militants something else and the bosses of some of these groups who are located outside India want something else...and yeah none of them have bothered to ask the PEOPLE what they want...

Arrey baap re.......itna serious aur passionate post!!!!!!!!

lal langot to aaj PEELA ho gaya :D

[laal_langot]

Galat detergent ka asar

[kate]

Never heard this name before. Certainly not a renowned name - renowned enough to be in my limited knowledge.

Again, let's separate Jammu from this whole issue. I am talking about Kashmir only. Jammu is not in dispute.

Now 20% of J&K don't want to separate. What percent of Kashmir would that be? 40, 50 or 60????

langoat ji, I dont have to answer your every question, I dont even have to read your every post.

Yes, I am talking sense. Aren't you glad that atleast one of us is!!!:p

[viking]

Senorita said:
Arrey baap re.......itna serious aur passionate post!!!!!!!!
lal langot to aaj PEELA ho gaya


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[viking]

Hmmm...Interesting discussion

kyaa farak padtaa hai, kashmir mein rehne waale bhee humare tumhare jaise hee log hein. unke khoon kaa rung bhee "LAAL" hai.

[Dhurandhar Bhat]

American Study Group on Kashmir

An unofficial delegation of American academics is touring India and Pakistan to strike out an “amicable solution to the Kashmir problem”. The delegation was commissioned by the US-based non-governmental organisation ‘Kashmir Study Group’ to acquire a sampling of opinion in the two countries in regard to the current status of the Kashmir dispute and also to prepare ground for an ‘Oslo type’ dialogue between India and Pakistan.

Last year the New York based study group, funded by a Kashmiri millionaire Farooq Kathwai, had sponsored a five-member team of South Asia experts under Dr. Robert. G. Wirsing, Professor in the University of South Carolina, which toured the region extensively interacting with journalists, academics, politicians and officials. According to Dr. Wirsing, last time it was a ‘fact-finding’ mission to analyse the current status of the Kashmir dispute and preferred measures for future action. The second tour after a year, he said, was aimed at gathering reaction and suggestions to implement the measures.

These measures, which were published in a 72-page report entitled The Kashmir Dispute of Fifty were rejected by both India and Pakistan. The team members however, told the Islamic Voice here that they were optimistic that their interaction with the key persons will create a conductive atmosphere, leading to an end to the bloodshed in Jammu and Kashmir.

The Kashmir Study Group consists of American Congressmen, senators, academics and diplomats, with most of them experts on South Asia. The group includes congressmen Gary Ackerman, James Leach and Senater Torriceli, besides 20 others scholars, diplomats and businessmen.

According to a team member, the KSG commands and lends full support to the government of India, and Pakistan for initiating a dialogue for normalising relations. Without using the cliche of “Oslo type interaction” the team of American academics recommended that India and Pakistan should provide a protected institutional framework to the ongoing dialogue. “This means, that there should be frequent publicity-free meetings of official representatives insulated from the likely stress and strains of relationship” explained Dr. Wirsing.

The team also favoured that the restoration of normality in the state is a vital initial step towards an eventual fair and honourable solutions of the Kashmir tangle.

Among it recommendations the team suggested that the political representatives of the people of Jammu and Kashmir should be formally included in negotiations between India and Pakistan.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
more from intelligentia later...
what you think people about this Farooq Kathwai???

[BABU_HYDERABADI]

Well the problem of kashir has been eluding both the governments of India as well as that shit land called Pukistan, Well there are some points that i would like to point

Zaman Bhai sun rahe ho na

1) Well India is not divided on the basis of religion as pukistan is, so you cannot talk about seperation base o religion
2) Well who is pukistan to talk on behalf of muslims, if they think since they are a muslim country they have right to talk on their behalf, just remember that India has more muslims than Pukistan,well if it is the matter of population then we should talk with Indonesia
3) Well if the result of the talks is that Kashmir is to be divided from India then i too go for it under one condition that all those Muslims in India go along with it(i mean they go to Pakistan), this time india is not going to bear the weight of those shitters
4) And last but not the least Pakistan should write a statement saying that it would in noway interfere in the affairs of The kashmir

well fellow echarchans what are ur views about my theories
-babu(the paki exterminator)

[zaman]

Well------------ Babu.
Behia..... You are talking on a very sensative point.
Idea of India.

Idea of Pakistan.
I do not know taht what was the idea of India, but Idea of Pakistan is totely relay on Islam and on it's basis. The partitation was made according to the population of the purticuler aria. So the Muslims majority arias must belong to Paksitan other, to India.

But what happned, Mr.Gandi's affairs with Mrs.Batton was so true, that Mr Gandi was successfull to take the aria of Distt. Feeroz Pur, Juna Gurah , The whole State of Kashmir and also Your State of Haderabad.
Can you believe it Mr. Babu, you must could have the part of you anemey Pakistan. Cause of the majority population of Muslims.

Babu i would like to carry on step by step.
if Maharaj Babu liks it.

[nandini]

Originally posted by zaman
Well------------ Babu.
Behia..... You are talking on a very sensative point.
Idea of India.

Idea of Pakistan.
I do not know taht what was the idea of India, but Idea of Pakistan is totely relay on Islam and on it's basis. The partitation was made according to the population of the purticuler aria. So the Muslims majority arias must belong to Paksitan other, to India.

But what happned, Mr.Gandi's affairs with Mrs.Batton was so true, that Mr Gandi was successfull to take the aria of Distt. Feeroz Pur, Juna Gurah , The whole State of Kashmir and also Your State of Haderabad.
Can you believe it Mr. Babu, you must could have the part of you anemey Pakistan. Cause of the majority population of Muslims.

Babu i would like to carry on step by step.
if Maharaj Babu liks it.

mr gandhi's affiair with Mrs Batton
does he mean Mahatma gandhi and Lady mountbatten
then shouldn't it be nehru and Mrs Mountbatten?

[zaman]

very sorry Nandni.

That's a mistake.

[bahuram]

Guys,

First give 22.5% reservation to SC/ST in army. See houw Pakis shit in their pants then

Bahuram

[laal_langot]

Only that the shit will end up in the pants of the 22.5% by a conspiracy of the ISI....

Why dont you ask for a 22.5% in modelling too...no DALIT has been a MISS WORLD/UNIVERSE/ASIA PACIFIC so far...and to top it all the major male models in India are also UPPER CASTES....is olden days it used to be purity now the conspiracy is called looks....

A dailt is born with good looks naturally but his looks are oppressed by the higher castes who dont allow access to make up and the dalit cannot build a good physique because he is given plastic ke weights instead of proper cast iron ones.....in his nutrition the rajputs substitute murgi ke ande with kauwe ke ande....so reservations are needed there too....

this is METTA PHYSICS

[Netra]

ROFL

[smellyfinger]

laal bhai,

aaj bahut gusse mein lag rahe ho ?? :D :D

subah subah singleram ke saat bhid gaye ??

Singleram,
There is no concept of reservation in army. YOu are free to join today. Go ahead. Apply. They wont turn you away ...

[Senorita]

Originally posted by bahuram
Guys,

First give 22.5% reservation to SC/ST in army. See houw Pakis shit in their pants then

Bahuram

Oh you mean to say you'll get into paki pants and then we'll all yell - hey look pakis have shit in their pants .

Saale tu IIT mein ghus to gaya B*astard how the hell did you manage to pass out of it....

F*kin SOB can't even comprehend mundane matters !!!!

reservation in army!!!!!!

Next you'll want ki jitne bhi upper caste males hain they should f*ck dalit women so that better gene-crop is harvested for dalits.

Saale bhikari!!!!!!!!!!

[Randheer]

Wah,
Ab meri pyari IIT wali Sherni has roared,
Bahuram will now shit in his pants.
He is just an Idiot,ignore him

:D :D :D