Should we have reservation for Dalits in private sector

[soochak]

Dalits have yet to come into mainstream intself. Large scale privatisation seems to have left them out of the ambit of development and progress.

Historical reasons have contributed to their staying out of the 'mainstream'. Can reservation in private sector help them enjoy the benefits of progress?

I think so

soochak

[Randheer]

Yaar soochak,
Joke Maar rahe ho ki Serious ho,
Agar Serious ho to suno Yaar India ko thoda to Progress Karne do,
Kyon India ki poori tarah se Maan chodne par lage huye Ho:) :) :)

[chirag2000]

ya right give dalits reservation in the private sector and why not in the armed forces as well
desh ke musalmaano ne maari ,angrez ne maari ab dalito ki baari hain kyon?

reservations in every field and of every sort [men women] should be removed.

merit should be the 1 criteria

[Netra]

Chirag is right. If a country has to progress, there should be no reservations. Ability should be the only criteria.

[risingsun]

its useless to argue for reservations for dalits or whatever you want to call them. you say large scale privatisation has left them out of the mainstream, when did this privatisation start? and before that since when do we have given dalits all the reservation they need? have they come into mainstream? no....for the so called backward people to come into so called mainstream, they themselves will have to try and come up on the basis of their merits only.
Reservations and such things are gimmicks by politicians to get votes and sadly common man is licked by these gimmicks. even visionaries like Babasaheb Ambedkar had asked for reservations for not more than 10 yrs after constitution came into being. I think a person who is educated and wants reservations in todays world is either a stupid idiotic fool or a politician.

[ShivSainik]

Enough of Reservations yar !!! Dalits get reservations in education and that too much .... So after getting educated its there responsibility to get job. Atleast give them some struggle , they are getting everything without strugle.

I think there is need for reservations for open category people now :-)

-ShivSainik

[risingsun]

i cannot agree more with shivsainik, what with reservations for dalits creeping up with every election and reservations for women, a reservation should be made for people from open category too....

[Shringarey]

Guys,

Just imagine. If I were to drive you out of your house and take it. What would you want in compensation? Then steal your moneys and cows and land. Now what would you want in compensation? Then refuse to give you a job. Then refuse to allow your children to be educated. Now, What would you want as compensation. If I were to do this generation after generation, treat you as vile and untouchable, rape your wives, and do it for 5000 years - what compensation do you need? See what I mean? There is a case for reservation in the private sector on moral basis. The problem is that the timing is all wrong.

Shring

[Shringarey]

Guys,

Tho there is a moral argument for reservations in the Pvt Sector, the timing is all wrong. The Bania are just fed up with the govt. Why? Here is a list :

i) The Brahmins claimed that they could analyze the economy. To manufacture a typewriter you had to get their permission. They claimed they knew what the economy wanted, not the people!! What arrogance!! (Like claiming that they knew the mind of God in the last century - Ha Ha). It sounds ridiculous today but it happenned just 10 yrs ago! Dalits supported them. Brahmins made money.

ii) Just stole banks, Air-Companies, Insurance, what not. Owners paid 1/400th of the price!! For the 'people' the Brahmins said. The Dalits, STs, OBCs danced on the streets. Chootiyaas. Brahmins looted the institutions.

iii) Grabbed rich land from Banias and paid a pittance.

iv) Had ridiculous tax laws (97.5%!). How could anyone not SEE that it was crazy. Dalits/OBCs su[pported, Brahmins made money.

On and on and on this can go on. Today the Banias are sick and tired - sick of both Brahmins and Dalits. Any more ****-up and they will take their money elsewhere and send country to dogs. See what I mean?

Why did the Dalits support the Brahmins from the Congress? - arseholes!! Now that public institutions are looted and khoklaa, the Brahmins are getting out, and yelling 'free market'. Dalits enter khoklaa institutions with reservations, and the institution falls. Brahmin yells - 'See?'. Whisper campaign goes on 'Dalit Bankers cannot analyze projects' - not 'We looted the banks'.

It is as it always was. Brahmins do keeeda, Khsatriyaas use muscle power to get out, Banias use money power and escape. Shudras? They get trapped and blamed for the ills in society and get the whacko up their kundee.

Sad but true

Shring.

[viking]

There should be some quota for the poor opressed people even in the H1 B quota :D

Dont you guys think that because their ancestors suffered 100 years ago they are now entitled for a free trip to the US?Jai Bhim;)

[soochak]

i don't know how many of us have seen the plight of the bhangis. if one visits gujarat and sees the bhangi colonies, i think you'll know what i'm talking about. the caste politics in india is not a joke my friends, and it still exists. the bhangis clean toilets that are filled with piles of shit. can you ever do that?

while we are investing heavily on IT and the like, have you ever wondered why we don't invest on sanitation technology? don't you think it is unusual for a country that rides high on IT these days to still have jamadars cleaning the roads every morning?

of course we can all turn a blind eye, look the other wayand view the sky from our ivory castles. but ground realities are realities.

come down south, look at the koraga tribes in south kanara, karnataka, see their pathetic state of affairs.

what is worse is that they (as do we) think it is divine ordinance. modernity my friends is about seeking universal brotherhood, it is about prosperity for all. it is not about wearing branded clothes, watching MTV and speaking the English language.

and people who think that by accepting homosexuality and live-in relationships alone, they are modern, who are we fooling?

soochak

[Netra]

Soochak, do you honestly believe that if there are reservations in the private sector, it will be the poor bhangis who are going to get these jobs?

No my dear. The jobs will be taken up by the urban dalits whose parents are already profiting in the govt. sector. The bhangis and tribals will be totally unaware of any such opportunities.

Secondly to take up jobs in the private sector you need to be educated. We should try and give free education to these tribals and then let them then compete with the others to get jobs in the private sector.

If you were running a business would you employ a person based on his ability or would you prefer to employ a dalit just because he/she is a dalit?

I have already said this before but I am repeating it. If we want to get dalits and tribals into the mainstream, we should give incentives to inter-caste marriages ie non Dalit man marrying a Dalit woman. The Dalits need to be brought up socially.

[Shringarey]

Soochak sir,

of course we can all turn a blind eye, look the other wayand view the sky from our ivory castles. but ground realities are realities.


I am writing to you in great anguish. I am at the airport going to Lebanon and writing to you how people like you are causing me great pain personally. My purpose in life is to build schools - more and more schools. As many as I can. Buss. That is my only purpose as I see it. This is what happens :

Someone like you comes and says - "Gosh - these Dalits are in poor shape. They must be allowed entrance in schools. They Dont build schools for Dalits themselves. They pass laws. A commissioner comes to ensure the laws are followed.

Another Someone like you comes (Shabana Azmi) and says - "Gosh - these Domestic Workers are in poor shape. They must be allowed entrance in schools. She does not build schools for Domestic Workers herself. She activates to pass laws. A commissioner comes to ensure the laws are followed.

This goes on and on. Today to build a school I require 136 permissions and takes 7 years!! Why should I get harrassed? We are so harrassed that we have decided to stop building schools in India (serious - absolutely serious) - we are building them in Birmingham, Fiji, Okhlahama, Mongolia, Africa - NOT INDIA!! We are SCARED OF YOU!!

You feel wonderful. Sitting in an AC office you feel you are 'not like others' - you have a heart!! (While others are chutths). You want to force the people to do what your heart says! Thats fundamentalism. You care for them? Go - work with them, help them - dont force others. I accuse YOU sir of living in ivory towers. Love your people at YOUR OWN expense - not someone else's.


Shring

[Shringarey]

Soochak,


modernity my friends is about seeking universal brotherhood, it is about prosperity for all. it is not about wearing branded clothes, watching MTV and speaking the English language. and people who think that by accepting homosexuality and live-in relationships alone, they are modern, who are we fooling?


I completely disagree, My friend. Modernity is about abolition of tyranny - about freedom. When we accept homosexuality and live-in relationships, we are saying something important. We are saying this : "I may not accept your sexual preference - homosexuality. I may not accept your sexual mores - live-in. I may be personally disgusted by them. But you are free to follow them as you do not harm me. I will not let my personal preferences and beliefs act as an excuse to tyrannize you. You have as much liberty to your styles as I do, and I will respect that. That is what separates modernity from barbaric ages. Freedom. When you ask for reservation in private sector for Dalits, you are TRANSGRESSING the freedom of the employer. Plain and Simple. People have ALWAYS wanted to be free - all people at all times. A lover of freedom is not one who likes to be free - it is one who is ready to accord the same freedom to others!! Thats whats the difference.

Aurangzeb and Chisti - both wanted Islam. Aurangzeb sat in his palace and used laws/coercive power to convert people forcibly and felt good that he was doing something great for Allah - he was a fundamentalist. Chisti went working with the people - showing them the PATH - a far more difficult proposition - he was a Saint.

You have a choice. You can say "force the pvt sector to employ Dalits" - pass laws - you can even feel GREAT for doing something GREAT - you are a fundamentalist. You think about Bhangis? Go - start a company and employ them. Who's stopping you? Work with them, teach them. There is no law against that? Don't love them AT SOMEONE ELSE's EXPENSE. Thats the issue here.

Shring

[Netra]

As usual, great replies Shring.

[AdiDravida]

A Good example of Untouchabilty can be noticed right in this forum itself. I have been reading a lot of discussions. In almost every discussion Dalits are considered as useless people, without talent. Should the talent not be based on individuals.


Would the people on the forum agree for an affirmative action as we see in US for Dalits in India.

[Shringarey]

Adi Dravida,

SCs and STs constitute 22.5% (now 24%) of pop and have 22.5% of seats. Fair enuf. But we Muslims have 18% of pop and have only 0.5% of seats is that fair? Tell me. Honestly.

Upper Caste Hindus treat us as equals. They say that there should be criteria on merit. Hindus or Muslims is no issue. We are happy.

SC/STs say that they want affirmative action - BUT NOT US. That they are in some way superior to us. I'm sorry my friend, we Muslims will NOIT accept Dalits/STs treating us as despicable and not deserving of reservations. This is untouchability practised against us.

You were untouchables and want to seek revenge? Fine. Seek on those that tyrannized you - Brahmins!! But Brahmins who constitute 4% occupy 48% of positions and we who constitute 18% have only 0.5% of positions. You got the guts - screw Brahmins - don't screw us - who never believed in untouchability.

Either have no affirmative action, or we want it too. When you refuse to give us 18% reservation based on our population (Ambedkar was against it), I accuse you of practicing untouchability on us!! You stand accused of untouchability my friend - You !!!

Shring

[Senorita]

:D :D

wah wah

school ke debating hall ki yaad aagayee......

hey the bottomline is if you don't have the brains or the brawn you gotta remain contended living life like a bhangi............

India ko poora duba ke dum loge kya?

[risingsun]

hehehe this is the first time i have come across specimen saying that 'we deserve reservation'

deserve indeed, people like you also deserve to be kicked on your naked butts with spiked shoes in front of the world and then hang you inverted and burn some nice kolhapuri laungi mirchis under your head.

[Netra]

Senorita in Western countries, if you don't have the brains you do menial jobs. So why is this wrong in India?

A brahmin who doesn't have the brains should work as a bhangi and a dalit who has the brains should take up a white collar job. Nobody is saying that all dalits are brainless and all brahmins are brainy. A person should do what he is capable of doing and we should all work for the betterment of the economy.

I don't know about the USA but in Switzerland, what counts is your work. The only condition for getting a govt. job is that you have to have a Swiss nationality otherwise everything depends on merit. That's why Swiss govt. employees are highly efficient. As far as private companies are concerned there are no conditions. Me with my Indian nationality is earning as much as a Swiss woman is earning. There is no discrimination whatsoever.

Cheers

Netra

[risingsun]

well netra ji if you care to try to listen and understand others view points, that is what seno ji means.
if you got no brains be a bhangi, now the question of whether you are a brahmin or a muslim or SC or ST does not matter and indeed is nowhere mentioned in seno ji's msg. bottom line? abolish all reservations and make merits the sole criteria.

[Netra]

And I thought Seno was being sarcastic.

My apologies Senorita

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Netra
Senorita in Western countries, if you don't have the brains you do menial jobs. So why is this wrong in India?

A brahmin who doesn't have the brains should work as a bhangi and a dalit who has the brains should take up a white collar job. Nobody is saying that all dalits are brainless and all brahmins are brainy. A person should do what he is capable of doing and we should all work for the betterment of the economy.

I don't know about the USA but in Switzerland, what counts is your work. The only condition for getting a govt. job is that you have to have a Swiss nationality otherwise everything depends on merit. That's why Swiss govt. employees are highly efficient. As far as private companies are concerned there are no conditions. Me with my Indian nationality is earning as much as a Swiss woman is earning. There is no discrimination whatsoever.

Cheers

Netra

Netra that's what i meant........you ought to have brains to get a white collar job..and in the case of india agar goondagardi kar sakte ho to bhi you'll prosper..jungle ka kanoon hai bhaiyya ala Vijay Deenanath Chavan in Agneepath...yahaan har takatvar apne se kamjor ko mar kar jeeta hai.......marne ke liye akkal ay phir musclepower mein se kuch to hona chahiye.....

these bloody dalits .... how long are they gonna use the crutches of reservation......IIT mein we've seen these human dummies struggling to make it past the pass mark let alone the issue of good performance...graduation karke jub ye substandard engineers bahar jate hain aur naukriyan dhoondte hain tab apni capabilities ka andaza lagta hai inhein....

now some piece of shit might yell ki hum jaise logon ko bolne ka right hi nahin hai coz we are earning dollars/pounds whatever n we r away from india...I want to ask these assholes - tell me - hum log kahin to useful prove ho rahe hain kahin to hum productive hain - tum sale jiss indian govt kee bheek par IIT jaise institute mein ghuse itna paisa barbaad kiya uske baad bhi of what use are you to india or for that matter to anybody ????

****in non-entities..........

[Netra]

Seno (can I call you that?)

My brother was in IIT Kanpur and he was saying the same thing. Apparently a number of Dalits committed suicide because they couldn't finish their course in 7 years.

Now he has changed his attitude and is all for reservation. His reasoning is that if Sindhis can get admission with 40% marks in Jai Hind college just because they are Sindhis why can't there be reservations for Dalits?

Time to go home. More tomorrow.

Ciao

Netra

[risingsun]

well going by the same logic, why not have reservations for those who do not come in reserved categories but score less than 50%?

[Shringarey]

Netra, Senorita,

I had written this elsewhere, but it suits here (tho long). In the caste system, there is the Brahmin at the top who kicks the Rajput. Rajput kicks the Jat who in anger Kicks the Yadav. The Yadav kicks the Kusthi who takes revenge by Kicking the Dalit. At the top is the Brahmin, saintly, non-violent, non-flesh eater, always reciting Sanskrit Shlokas (Ha Ha) Kicking all. At the bottom is the Dalit, Kicked by all. What does he do to forget the kicks? He drinks Hurra like mad. If he can forget the kicks, good. If he can't, he goes home and kicks his wife.

Now they want to erase the caste system that has prevailed for five millenia - as countless times people have tried before them and failed. The Yadav talks of equality. He dreams of eating food with the Jat, marrying a Rajput or even being friends with a Brahmin. He wants equality. But he does not want to give that same equality to those under him - the Kushtis, Keoris, Kurmis, Dalits. They too want equality. They want to eat food with a Yadav. The Yadav cannot tolerate it. So he kicks them - Kushtis, Keoris, Kurmis, Dalits, all. But every time he kicks, he voluntarily gives his consent to the very caste system that oppresses him, and accepts the Jat's right to kick him. The Jat then kicks him. In frustration he kicks the lower people again giving consent to the Jat to kick him even more. (Ha Ha Ha - funny)

This is like what happenned in ancient Rome. When they conquered Central Asia, they instituted a system called 'Sinner System'. Once in a while a poor fellow would be declared a sinner - for breaking Roman laws. The Local People would then be told to punish him by throwing stones at him. The people l-o-v-e-d it. By punishing a sinner, they could claim to be saints. This happenned once, twice, thrice. Then the Romans played their master card. They tyrannised the local people, looted their women. If anyone objected they would stare at him and say "This is the Roman Law - will you break it? You dont look like a sinner to me" Then that guy had to keep quiet. Every time he had stoned a sinner, he was accepting the Roman Law. Ha! Ha! But seeing his wife 'eating figs and dates with Roman soldiers', he would get frustrated. The next 'Sinner' that came along - he would stone him really hard - and accept the Roman law even more!!!

Then a miracle took place. A Messiah came. He said 'Let those who have never sinned throw the first stone'. The crowd went home ashamed. He did that to the next village, then next, then next. Next time the Roman started his hanky panky, the Local refused to accept it. 'What Roman Law!' he bellowed. 'Let the Roman who has never sinned punish me first'. The Romans were scared good and proper. They would not tolerate this. After all, if a Local would not stone sinners how would they rule over him? Ho they crucified the Messiah. Yet the Empire that the Messiah built still stands after 2000 years. His was the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is the way the caste system can be eradicated. Once there was a Guru (Narayan Guru) who told the Ezhavas (Lower caste), 'Forget the Brahmins. You ignore the caste system. You welcome the castes L-O-W-E-R than you in your homes, in your temples' The Ezhavas did just that. Then they entered schools to get themselves education. The Brahmins could not stop them. 'We don't believe in the case system' they said. The same way Brits and Moghuls beat the system - by refusing to accept it. Ha Ha. In a generation they became doctors, lawyers and 'became' Upper Castes. This was what Gandhi told the British. 'You can hit me - I will not hit back. OK you are strong. But I refuse to accept that because you are strong you are right. I refuse to accept coercive power so I will not hit you' Ha Ha. He then lifted a handful of salt and got an empire down - not on its knees, but to its senses. This is the way.

There came a leader amongst the Indian people - his name was Bhimrao Ambedkar. Being of the lowest caste, he had none to Kick. He said 'I refuse to believe in the caste system'. That is it. The caste system started to dissolve. Then he was asked to 'write the constitution for a new-born nation'. He put special rights 'for my people'. He was caught! The very fact that he put those rights will make the caste system cling on ever more. Seeing the Dalits advancing the Yadavs got insecure. They fought and got special rights as OBCs. Being the most dominant of OBCs they creamed 90% of seats and started strutting about pompously. The Jats who want to eat with the Rajputs cannot tolerate a pompous Yadav. They fought and got included in the OBCs. They bagged 90% of seats and Yadavs only 5%. Now Yadavs are asking that Jats be thrown out in a separate category called FOBC (Forward Other Backward Castes - what a name!!). The Rajput Mahasabha wants to be a part of OBCs. The Kushtis, who are OBCs want to throw Yadavs into FOBCs. The Kushti leader was murdered. In the Dalits, the Bhangis have started shouting 'All Dalit seats are creamed by Chamars. Chamars should be Dalit-A while Bhangees should be Dalit-B' The Chamars dont like it. They tried to talk of 'Dalit Unity', 'Brahmanical plan to destroy Dalits' etc. When that failed to cut ice with the Bhangees, they got angry ' You lazy bums, you don't want to work. Why dont you work like us!' This is hillllarious. The fight will soon be with guns, then Kalanishkovs and Uzis. The Brahmin? He will be in his temple, non-violent, vegetarian, saying his stotras. Ha Ha Ha. Don't believe me? Read any neo-Budhist paper. Look at Matrimonial ads. They all want Neo-Budhists. Not only that you will sense a 'high moral ground and moral superiority' attitude. But every time they stress their 'moral superiority' that they are different, they reinforce the same system.

Remember friends, when Europeans said that they want special benefits because 'White Race is Superior' they got punished. How? A lunatic came among them and said that the Germans are more superior and want more special rights. Ha Ha. When will we learn? In Maharashtra the Shiv Sena came to power saying Maharashtrians first. Chief Minister Manohar Joshi was kicked out by Rane because of all the Maharashtrians, the Maratthas are most superior. Of all the Marathas the Raigadees are most superior. Of all the Raigadees the Bhosales are Ultra most superior. War War War. A time is not far when the 'Most Backward ' war will take its toll in blood and tears. Men will shed blood, women will shed tears. And when all this is over and the Bahujans have control over all educational institutions after enormous bloodshed, he would find those institutions barren. The Brahmin would have created his own (privatization), be still saying stotras, abhoring meat, non-violent, and look and say innocently "What have I done?"

The truth is this :

2% of Hindus (Brahmins) are fukking everyone - they are the fukkers
18% Dalits are getting fukked by everyone - the fukkees
The Balance 80%? - They don't know what the fukk is going on

Wanna change it? Follow the principle of Adi-Shankjaracharya. Don't change the world. Don't even try. You cant even change your family - your wife, son, daughter. Just change yourself. Your family will change by emulation. They will change the neighborhood (by observation). The nation would change by inspiration. Who knows maybe even the word could change. Remember the Messiah and His Kingdom of Heaven? Remember Gandhi and his handful of salt? Remember Narayan Guru and the Ezhavas? I hope you do.


Shringarey

[caligula]

been reading some of the interesting postings above..quite interesting actually...being an uppercaste myself...i am +vely inclined to reservations...maybe becos..for lets say a 1000 years ..we have abused these people in every way possibe..maybe its time we kissed and made up...its something like paying the hospital bills of a person whom we kept on bashing up
....so what say folks? mr Shringarey is interesting and even well read but dont mind me my friend..u seem a bit ...just a bit..rabid.
but i admire u for your strong (not neccesarily right) convictions
hail caeser

[Netra]

If you really want to make up to them get married to one, if you are not already married. But don't let the economy suffer because of these ideas. Like Shringarey said, start a business and give jobs to them. That's your business but don't force your ideas on others. If I have to start a business I am going to take a person on merit irrespective of his caste or community. But doesn't mean you should do the same thing. You do what you feel is right and let others do what they feel is right.

No offense.

Bye
Netra

[Senorita]

As I said earlier it's a dog-eat-dog world...

Shring you've presented a nice array of facts in a highly conclusive manner........

well when it comes down to the basics - you gotta fend for yourself and in today's world brains n brawn are your fighting weapons - so I don't care whether the person next door is a dalit/brahmin/muslim/whatever ... if he's smart enough to progress and come up well in life he ought to be there say be an IAS officer or the CEO of a multinational etal....and if one isn't that smart one should be contented cleaning the toilets...

Focus on the individual and not on a group...


and as far as an individual is concerned , who he/she loves/hates in most cases should be on a personal level......if someone's nice n good to you love him/her otherwise ignore/kick butt irrespective of his caste/religion.......

[laal_langot]

Is it possible to have reservations for the right to demand reservation??

[Shringarey]

caligula,


mr Shringarey is interesting and even well read but dont mind me my friend..u seem a bit ...just a bit..rabid.
but i admire u for your strong (not neccesarily right) convictions



When you have the law, hammer the law. When u have the facts, hammer the facts. When you have neither, hammer the opponent. Why not argue with facts vand processes. Why go on personal level and call me rabid. Huh?


we have abused these people in every way possibe..maybe its time we kissed and made up...its something like paying the hospital bills of a person whom we kept on bashing up


Good. Do it. You have abused them - make up for it. Am I stopping you? Why make us Muslims pay ffor it? It is like you (Upper Caste) bash a person (Dalit), feel guilty, and take money from me (Shring). If I protest that we have not bashed up the person - I am rabid??? Funny man!! Its like Aurangzeb maan.



but i admire u for your strong (not neccesarily right) convictions


How do you KNOW these are my convictions? The internet is anonymous right? Mebbe - just mebbe I am a politician who is PRO-RESERVATION and is stirring up trouble that he collect objections and prepare for his next debate? Thought of that? Huh?

Shring.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Shringarey
caligula,


mr Shringarey is interesting and even well read but dont mind me my friend..u seem a bit ...just a bit..rabid.
but i admire u for your strong (not neccesarily right) convictions



When you have the law, hammer the law. When u have the facts, hammer the facts. When you have neither, hammer the opponent. Why not argue with facts vand processes. Why go on personal level and call me rabid. Huh?


we have abused these people in every way possibe..maybe its time we kissed and made up...its something like paying the hospital bills of a person whom we kept on bashing up


Good. Do it. You have abused them - make up for it. Am I stopping you? Why make us Muslims pay ffor it? It is like you (Upper Caste) bash a person (Dalit), feel guilty, and take money from me (Shring). If I protest that we have not bashed up the person - I am rabid??? Funny man!! Its like Aurangzeb maan.



but i admire u for your strong (not neccesarily right) convictions


How do you KNOW these are my convictions? The internet is anonymous right? Mebbe - just mebbe I am a politician who is PRO-RESERVATION and is stirring up trouble that he collect objections and prepare for his next debate? Thought of that? Huh?

Shring.

Shring

you are perhaps refuting your own point...the agenda as it seems to be is

1. setting past wrongs right
2. zeroing in on the culprits
3. making the culprits pay for those wrongs
4. making sure 'others' (meaning the set of people left when you exclude the subsets '****ers' and the '****ed' from the superset that is 'Society') do not suffer in the process.

1 is okay...noble..charming

2/3/4 are all controversial - the thread started with reservation in the backdrop of casteism and has now the muslim 'angle' in too....who is going to decide who are the culprits....you cannot rewrite history for the benefit of a particular section....I hope this doesn't degenerate in to a bone of contention but do you not remember the muslim influence in India..the english ruled us for only 200 years but the muslims did so for multiple centuries...so much so that they have now become a part of the indian society...weren't they culprits too...of being the perpetrators of atrocious crimes against the then indian folks...of plundering our welath and defaming our 'hindu' heritage...why shouldn't they pay?? pay the hindu samaaj back what you took away in terms of our the then unblemished hindu identity, our material wealth and compunction for the mental agonies inflicted on us....Nay sir this isn't a balance sheet kinda stuff..You are out on a mission to bring to a par the 'liabilities' and the 'assets' and you have already established the identities of the 'creditors and the 'debtors'!!!!! no this doesn't work this way!
Seen with a jaundiced perspective
only the hindu uppercastes appear to be the culprits but was not everybody including muslims and christians subjected to the same dynamic changes over the period of centuries...you say you are being logical and rational .. how can you then make such categorisations and compartmentalised accusations...like it or not - Society Mr. Shring is not an aggregate of different sects but it's a whole living throbbing pulsating being and every appendage affects/is affected by changes/stimuli to others....

As i said earlier INDIVIDUAL MERIT should be the only
criterion for a ticket to higher 'status' in society....

[Shringarey]

Senor,

I think you did not understand the sarcasm there. Once you say that the Lower Castes should be reparated by Upper Castes, you have to accept the BJP right to destroy the Masjid - for it too is based on reparations. But that is fundamentalism. Similarly, Dalits have to pay to Kurmis for the rape of Allahabad in 672(?) (Then Prayag). The Ezhavas have to pay to Reddis for the destruction of Avampur.. etc. etc. The fact that ONE reparation is right and rest is wrong is bull-shit.



As i said earlier INDIVIDUAL MERIT should be the only criterion for a ticket to higher 'status' in society....


I cannot accept that. Who 'decides' individual merit? You are from IIT. Suppose I believe that IITians are arseholes (I don't - but suppose I do). Then what? Who is to decide whether they are arseholes or not? Simple. I want the right to get a job without going to IIT. NOT by force/laws, but by convincing my employer that I am good. To a large extent this right exists. I also NEED the RIGHT to set up my institutions and run them the way I want (with my funds or with funds collected by voluntary institutions). If I can convince people that my institutions are better than IIT I am successful. I need the right NOT to believe in merit too. The right to open schools based on MY criteria (Netra : Jai Hind College was built by Sindhis for Sindhis). My criteria need NOT be merit. That right is denied to me.

I am damn certain that give me a fellow who does not know a word of English, and I can make him proficient in English in 6 months. Thats an open challenge. He will speak like a well-educated Indian. (Not writing tho). In a land where English is a barrier to entry, this is an important skill. I can create an organization to do that too. I did it amongst the Pardhee community (STs) in India. Then SS interfered. 'What about Marathi?' they said. Dalits interfered : 'We have a special right too? What about us?" Women wanted "Special Rights too". Hey Let ME decide whom to educate based on whatever is MY criteria - after all it is MY school. You have merit? Good. Give me the right NOT to believe in it. Let me decide whonm to educate, how, when, where and why. Not you. You dont like my policies, go and open YOUR schools. That is what I wanna say.

Shring

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Shringarey
Senor,

I think you did not understand the sarcasm there. Once you say that the Lower Castes should be reparated by Upper Castes, you have to accept the BJP right to destroy the Masjid - for it too is based on reparations. But that is fundamentalism. Similarly, Dalits have to pay to Kurmis for the rape of Allahabad in 672(?) (Then Prayag). The Ezhavas have to pay to Reddis for the destruction of Avampur.. etc. etc. The fact that ONE reparation is right and rest is wrong is bull-shit.



As i said earlier INDIVIDUAL MERIT should be the only criterion for a ticket to higher 'status' in society....


I cannot accept that. Who 'decides' individual merit? You are from IIT. Suppose I believe that IITians are arseholes (I don't - but suppose I do). Then what? Who is to decide whether they are arseholes or not? Simple. I want the right to get a job without going to IIT. NOT by force/laws, but by convincing my employer that I am good. To a large extent this right exists. I also NEED the RIGHT to set up my institutions and run them the way I want (with my funds or with funds collected by voluntary institutions). If I can convince people that my institutions are better than IIT I am successful. I need the right NOT to believe in merit too. The right to open schools based on MY criteria (Netra : Jai Hind College was built by Sindhis for Sindhis). My criteria need NOT be merit. That right is denied to me.

I am damn certain that give me a fellow who does not know a word of English, and I can make him proficient in English in 6 months. Thats an open challenge. He will speak like a well-educated Indian. (Not writing tho). In a land where English is a barrier to entry, this is an important skill. I can create an organization to do that too. I did it amongst the Pardhee community (STs) in India. Then SS interfered. 'What about Marathi?' they said. Dalits interfered : 'We have a special right too? What about us?" Women wanted "Special Rights too". Hey Let ME decide whom to educate based on whatever is MY criteria - after all it is MY school. You have merit? Good. Give me the right NOT to believe in it. Let me decide whonm to educate, how, when, where and why. Not you. You dont like my policies, go and open YOUR schools. That is what I wanna say.

Shring

your arguments are incoherent and incogent - a series of non sequiturs.

We've digressed from the topic at hand...

Let's look at what you gave me by way of an answer -

MIND YOU - THIS IS ENTIRELY UNCONNECTED WITH THE DISCUSSION OF THE MAIN TOPIC -or maybe it is - i'll demonstrate the same within the course of this post.

Regarding your views about MERIT you can of course choose to think what you wish to - Shringarey you might fashion yourself a to be a rebel but if you wanna live in the society you gotta abide by certain rules - not all of them but some are basic. Like you said you don't recognize being from IIT or mumbai university or JNU or Jamia Milia Islamia is a certificate of merit - fine - they are the parts of the present education system and this means in turn you don't patronise the education system - then why did you study in a school/college within the same system - you must be a graduate (at least) - where did you get that degree from - again from some institute which lies within the domain of the system which you so recklessly renounce.
You say you will convince your employer that you are good - how will you do that - is it written over your face that you are good or is it the belief in you that you are good makes that employer take you in - again here you choose to forget the employer himself - what if he doesn't share your belief regarding MERIT - what if he demands a graduate from mumbai university or some such place ( have avoided naming IITs here coz that seems to kindle a hostile spirit within most ppl ) - Again you say whether or not reservations are given to dalits make sure that WE MUSLIMS do not suffer - if your views regarding MERIT exclude formal education from established institues within the system why the heck should you create a furore if (as you put it) your chances of making an entry into those very institutes are reduced as a by-product of the reservations???? I know this is inane but then you started it!!!!!!!!!!!

And then you talk about your schools - which is another wild deviation from the topic - what you seem to be after is total isolation as far as your rights n ambitions are concerned - but then you have duties too - take take is all you chant - there has to be a 'give' act too Shringarey.....

and , referring to my previous post , like it or not - Society Mr. Shring is not an aggregate of different sects but it's a whole living throbbing pulsating being and every appendage affects/is affected by changes/stimuli to others....

[risingsun]

MR. Shring ka to lagta hai, funda is if you cannot convinve them confuse them. kidhar shuru hue kidhar ko jaa railey? koi ataa pataa nahi hai, lagta hai aapke viman ka navigation system kharaab ho gaya hai aur aapka ground ke sath sampark toot gaya hai.

So you do not believe in the criteria of merit as established in this society, you want the right not to believe in that merit? you want to define your criterias? well go ahead, good, engineering admissions ke liye criteria rakho, teri jaat kya hai? dont ask him what does he know about newtons laws. is that the criteria you want to enforce? HUH...

Medical admissions mein puchho teri jaat agar falan hai to tujhe admission milegi, phir whether you have the caliber to study medicine or not does not matter, again you will say that you will decide the caliber depending on caste, go ahead, you have the right NOT to believe in the INDIVIDUAL MERIT criteria. phir bologe caliber is if your jaat is this.

faltu bakwaas aap apne schools mein kyon nahi sikhate shring ji. vaise meri maaniye to mat hi muh kholie apna, aap apni tarah hi aane waali pidhi ko kalushit karenge.

[Shringarey]

Senor, Rising Sun.

Probably I did not make the arguments convincing. I will give you a practical explanation. As you know several Kashmiris are displaced from their homeland. I am the VP of Kashmiri Refugees Relief Fund. In order to assist them, we started 12 schools in B'bay. These schools teach ONLY ENGLISH. They are factories producing English speaking girls. We then created companies to give HELP DESK services to employ these girsl. These companies have clients like GE Capital (US), GE (US), Metlife(US), BC Tel (Can), amongst others. The clients are satisfied, the companies are satisfied, the workers are satisfied. These girls DO NOT EVEN HAVE GRADUATION. In order to create this, we did not take Govt aid, but used our resources and ENTERPRISE.

Our boys and girls are drawing about 40,000 Rs/m (950$). That is a lot of income. With that income they are creating history. Buying shops, 2 factories, houses/flats etc. Our children are getting educated. Out of community pop of 12,000, we have sent 37 students to IIT/BHU-IT this year (all with low rank tho). 17 to IIM/BMIS, etc. Good ratio no?

Now we are facing opposition as follows :

i) Shiv Sena : "If they are non-graduates you cannot give them jobs. Give jobs to Marathi Graduates. We wil pass a law to that effect"

ii) Dalits : Is it fair that only Kashmiri people have access to these schools? We are 25% of pop, we want them too.

iii) RSS : Since your school does not teach Hindi, we will ban them.

etc. etc.

Here is a case where :

i) We refused to accept society's criteria of education and created our own (ENGLISH ONLY)
ii) Refused to accept society's criteria of selection and created our own (Kashmiri Refugees only irrespective of brains)
iii) Convinced people who were willing to pay to employ us and are creating wealth.

Is it fair to ban us because we have our own criteria of education and selection? Is it fair? We are not troubling you - don't trouble us. You feel that only way to wealth is IIT? Thats your problem. We are not stopping you. Don't stop us. What is so confusing about this?

About Reservation for Muslims in another post. Am I clear of this one or not? Do you agree or not? Response from both expected.

Shring.

[risingsun]

in this example you have given, where does the question of reservation arise at all??

now that you have come onto this one, may i ask if you will give admission to hindus who had to leave kashmir because muslim militants were killing them right and left? if not then it is clear that you are a baseless bimbo, if yes then make that fact clear and i feel at least shiv sena, i hope, will leave you alone. i dont know about others.

[Shringarey]

Dear RisingSun,

In this example you have given, where does the question of reservation arise at all??

Because we are giving admissions ONLY to Kashmiris, it is construed as 100% reservation.
We never got reservation from Govt. We built it out of our own efforts. Now Dalits want 24% reservation claiming wrongs long past and forgetting our trauma only 10 years ago.


may i ask if you will give admission to hindus who had to leave kashmir because muslim militants were killing them right and left? if not then it is clear that you are a baseless bimbo, .....

Yes - we are. The President, Mr. Anwar Kolhate is a Hindu. Infact, nearly 80% of the refugees are Hindu. To put matters in perspective, my mom too is a Hindu from Nepal. She runs the Chitti (local bank).

if yes then make that fact clear and i feel at least shiv sena, i hope, will leave you alone. i dont know about others.

No they won't. They are jealous. Marathi boys do not knoww English well (common folks) as Sena has destrroyed English Medium Schools. They are not getting jobs. They feel this as a way out. They have realized that society's criteria (graduation) got them nowhere while our criteria (English) could. See?


Sir, you have accused me harshly in your earlier posts. I hope I have clarified your dobts. Response expected.

Shring.

[Netra]

Good work Shring. Keep it up.

It always shocks me that when something good is being done, people put so many hurdles.

[risingsun]

i wont budge from what i have said in my earliar posts mr. shring, because in fact it was certainly a very different topic.

i admire you for the work you are doing, keep it up, and thanks for what you are doing for my countrymen from kashmir.

regards,

[Shringarey]

Netra,

Thanks.

Psst : I might be opeining schools in Mongolia. Permission is awaited.

Shring.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Netra
Good work Shring. Keep it up.

It always shocks me that when something good is being done, people put so many hurdles.

:D well he can jump over them .. can't he ?? once he mentioned he'd done a 400m hurdle race :p

[risingsun]

mr. shring coming back to the original topic, are reservations at national level, justified? please do not be specific like kashmiris or even muslims. Should reservations be there in India, yes or no.

[Netra]

Shring, please don't tell me all this. You are tempting me to leave Geneva and join you in your ventures.

Actually I was thinking of going back to India after retirement, but I think I will go earlier i.e. once my daughters have settled down which means in another 15 years. I've given them birth so that's the least I can do for them.

Just wanted to tell you that my aunt who is a retired teacher, has gone to Neral and is giving free education to the Adiwasi children.

[risingsun]

so you will go in 15 yrs, which means you will be 60!!! If yo uwont retire at 60, then when?

if you want to do it, why not now, why do you want to do it at an age when you will need someone to support you. door se dekh ke taarif karna sabko achha lagta hai.

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun,


mr. shring coming back to the original topic, are reservations at national level, justified? please do not be specific like kashmiris or even muslims. Should reservations be there in India, yes or no.


I thought I was clear when I mentioned FREEDOM. Reservations should not be enforced (by law) nor banned (by law). Let every private operator decide HIS criteria - brains, brawns, gender, race, height, color, whatsoever. If his criteria does not make economic sense, he will die as his output will not be competitive. Simple. Let each person decide for himself what is meant by 'merit' while hiring/firing people - not the Govt.

If a person feels that IITs are great and want to employ IITs only, fine.
If a person feels Brahmins are great and want to employ Brahmins only, fine.

etc. etc. FREEDOM to the operator. Reservations neither banned nor enforced by law


Shring

[smellyfinger]

Shring,

That is and extreme view. While I support private enterprise I think there is a need for equal opportunity laws.

... everyone should be an equal opportunity employer

[risingsun]

Originally posted by Shringarey

I thought I was clear when I mentioned FREEDOM. Reservations should not be enforced (by law) nor banned (by law). Let every private operator decide HIS criteria - brains, brawns, gender, race, height, color, whatsoever. If his criteria does not make economic sense, he will die as his output will not be competitive. Simple. Let each person decide for himself what is meant by 'merit' while hiring/firing people - not the Govt.

If a person feels that IITs are great and want to employ IITs only, fine.
If a person feels Brahmins are great and want to employ Brahmins only, fine.

etc. etc. FREEDOM to the operator. Reservations neither banned nor enforced by law

Shring [/B]

its understandable someone feeling IITs great and employing people from the institution, but i doubt if someone in right senses would want to employ a hindu if a more talented person (with respect to knowledge of the subject required in the job) may it be a muslim or anyone else is available.

mr shring the type of criterias u want to set are not healthy for the society, mental caliber and knowledge should be given their due importance. No one should morally have the right NOT to believe in these criterias.

[risingsun]

can you imagine a society where operator has the complete freedom? Everybody to his own?? Nepotism will flourish like anything, i would like only the ones i favour (obviously top in my mind would be my family, then cousins, then their cousins) to come up in society. so will everybody else. Society will start getting counted as families. Wont be long when each starts to decide own territories. I will start a school where only people from my family can study. I will start a gym where only my family can come, start a playground where only children from my family can play. all of this will happen only in my families territory. so we in fact will be back to the age when kings had kingdoms. so everybody will start fighting everybody for territory. that what you want?

[Shringarey]

Smelli, RisingSun,

I agree that there should be equal opportunity laws. However, they should be modeled on the US where :

Pvt operator fixes his objective (Profits, employment of whites, etc)
Pvt Operator fixes his criteria (Skin color, brains, etc)
Pvt operator fixes his Strategy of achieving this.

A black CANNOT claim Equal Opportunity laws in case he is refused admission on ground of color in a WHITES-ONLY club. See?

A man may have recd good marks, yet be passed over by the operator who employs an illiterate person as he feels that for the job an illiterate person is good. Someone else feels a literate person is reqd. That is the Operator's choice - not yours or any committees. See?

Do you think that you can fix before hand the criteria for every job/industry - or anyone can? Rising Sun, you have asked a lot of qts. I will reply to them - but u have to be more specific when you say that brains and capability should be given importance. Who decides brains and capability?

Shring

[risingsun]

yes mr. shring, criteria for defined jobs are definitely fixed, if we have a vacancy in a job for jhadu wala, we do not employ an engineer, where we have vacancy for an engineer to biuld bridges we do not employ a nursery teacher. further on if you have more than one such available engineers, employers should look for experiance in that kind of work, candidate's knowledge, not his race, caste, color, creed.

well no one defines brains and capabilities, a person who can tell that 2+2 is 4 has more brains and more capability than a person who says 2+2 is 5. now dont ask who decides if 2+2 is 4 or 5.

[laal_langot]

In a way Shring a Ling does bell a ring.......its up to the employer to employ people based on their discretion....people here get rejected places in financial institutions(know about them for sure maybe applies to other places too) because of the fact that they need work permits and the places clearly say so...

Similarly if an employer doesnt want to employe a certain category of peoiple his prerogative....provided hes not doing so clandestinely..like Shring said the market forces take care of the validity of his decision....

But the fact is reservation as a universal phenomenon across the entire gamut of private sector enterprises would be denial of that very right..the right to choose

Yes merit should be the only criteria but the definition of merit could be coined by the evaluator himself...so if he wants to hire a chartered accountant for the job of storekeeper fine...let him try

[echarcha]

Lets differentiate eCharchans on basis of moronic religion bashing posts and good posts. Then I will reserve who can post what! :D

Just kidding folks..... not in a mood for serious posts today....:D

[smellyfinger]

However,

There are lawsuits filed and won by people who file a suit against employers where they are turned fown based on their colour, national origin, sex etc. Even private firms are subject to certain rules. A club is slightly different.

Shring,

A private operator cannot fix criteria like colour of skin, at least not openly. He will get sued and his business ruined. There have been several instances of that.

[laal_langot]

I get reservations in the aesthetic apparel(designer made kachha banyaan's etc.) category?

[risingsun]

ya unfortunately many places such things as selection on employers own criterias do happen, question is whether this should be on the basis of caste and whether this should be legally binding.

should it be made legally compulsory for any employer to employ certain number of people from certain caste and certain number of people from certain other caste? which means should the reservations be brought into private sector, that is the question we are debating not what is already happening as Mr. lal ji points out. You have got right to choose when you have got choices mr. laal langot, but when you are legally bound to take on a person from caste A for a post in you organisation, you cannot exercise your right to choose a person who has more knowledge according to whoever's criteria.

[laal_langot]

Son read what I said again.....I said reservation as auniversal phenomenon across the board for the private sector would deny one THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE.....and that means that you shouldnt impose it by law however the employer should be allowed to decide what he wants and the law should take care that he makes his POLICY public not the reasons for the policy...

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun,

There are cases upon cases upon cases where criteria CANNOT be fixed. I will give examples:

1. There was a time when the S/W industry was hiring only technicians and 'body-shopping' them. Then 2 companies (Infosys and Wipro) started hiring non-technical MBAs). "To understand business side" they said. They were pooh-poohed. But they used them to go from body-shopping to projects and made a lot of money.But at THAT time, few people had that vision. Can you imagine Murthy explaining to a bureaucrat why he was hiring people who had NO tech knowledge?

2. One of my clients has started a Luxury Carpet Mfg Co.He is hiring ONLY HINDUS. Reason? While other carpet mfgs are selling in India, he wants to export to US, Europe and Japan. Turkish rugs have 95% market share. But they only produce designs - not motifs. They will NOT produce carpets with pictures like wars and animals as figures are anathema to Islam. There is an opportunity for my client. Can you see the logic? What if he has to explain to a Commissioner nd get his permission? There would be a few Islamic workers who would agree, get employed and then refuse. He would have to pay them to sack them!! What appears as religious intolerence has business logic.

3. I was involved with a Musk-Exporter (Kasturi). We had set up the best machines imported from France to capture deer and take the musk out. We had the best engineers. A competitor came and changed the logic. He employed Paasi tribals. These fellows can call a deer with a whistle. We got raped. We were forced to hire Paasis. But it was late. High interest cost on the machines forced us to collapse. Yet if a bureaucrat were to see it, would he not have considered hiring Paasis as caste based reservation? Would he have the vision?

4. McDonalds had ONE cook when it started. When the next few were hired, they paid greater stress that the new ones burgers were JUST LIKE the first one. No credence was given to quality. This was because they wanted standardization. Could you explain to a bureaucrat why you are doing this? Would he have the abilityto see that the brothers riunning the outfit dont want to sell burgers - they want to conquer the world!!

5. There was a student who took up a cleaning assignment to pay his fees. He innovated and created the vacuum cleaner. The company was bought over. Then it is cleaning rivers. Today they are talking that the space-debris should be removed by 'Space Scavengers'. You think those space scavengers will get the salary of a Bhungee? Innovation my friend.

I can go on and on anjd on and on. The fact is NO ONE can claim he knows the criteria in a job. We do not live in a static world sir. We have innovators - thank God for them. In your bid for MERIT, don't kill them - don't.No one has a right to decide what a criteria is - but the operator. Don't agree? Start hiring the best burger makers and create a chain. There are so many people who can make a better Burger than McDonalds - yet they seem to make the moollah. Funny - isn't it?


Shring

[Shringarey]

Smelli, RisingSun,

Sure there are law-suits filed on companies which employ based on color, religion, etc. But these are the large white dominated companies like GE, Ford, GM, etc. Korean shopkeepers only emply Koreans. Ditto India hoteliers. Large Jew dominated company employs jews. Try suing them. If you are white, male you are a piece of shit (sad really). We give seats ONLY to Kashmiri refugees in our schools. Try stopping us. But let a Brahmin schoolteacher do the same and see what happens? We are going the Sindhi refugee route to progress and not Ambedkar. That is why Sindhi schools still have preference for Sindhis (to Netra)


My dear rising sun, in practical life there is good business sense in hiring based on caste/religion in India. Go to any shopkeeper/store in India and you will see hiring done on basis of caste. Why? Suppose you, a shopkeeper decide to hire me because I am the best salesman (merit). One day I loot the vshop when ypou are away. You come to my house I refuse to pay. You are screwed!! If you hire based on caste, most caste have an informal Court system that WORKS! Because we are living in a country where courts don't work, I have to hire from my caste. Got it?

We train Kashmiris for IITs. It is NOT free as it seems. If he makes it to IIT and goes abroad, he has to pay $3000 in the first 3 years. That is his DUTY. It is understood. If we teach Ghatis, will they do it? No. Not because they are dishonest - but because I have NO HOLD ON THEM. Netra, your brother sees that Sindhis get seats at 40% in JaiHind. But there is a duty too. IF he makes it, he has to pay a lot. Do regular guys do that? That is what most people DO NOT SEE.


Shring.

[Shringarey]

riends,

The issues discussed here are the core of modern Hinduism. People just talked. Once I was tlking to the director of Board in Pune. He mentioned about Drona refusing to hire Karna (Sutaputra) because the school was ONLY for princes. At the same time the condition for his OWN son Ashwathama (Brahmin) was waived. He claimed it as nepotism. I knew that the Director's own son went to a posh school where he would not have met the criteria. He said he got it in 'Employees Quota'. Why then should Drona not get it in Employees Quota? That man was zapped. He just stood up - "YES!!" he said. He kept on saying "YES!!" several times. Is that nepotism? Funny man. Are the microsoft millionnaires nepotists? Who calls it nepotism? The Union leaders who want benefit (soap manufactured in factory t cheap rates) for workers!! Ha Ha.

There are issues like why did Ram abandon Sita? Ram is unneccessarily tarnished today without understanding. Did you know that Ram committed 108 'SERIOUS CRIMES' like Abandoning Sita, Cutting Shoorpanaka's nose (woman), killing Vali from behind, Killing Shambhuk a lowe caste for learning Vedas, Attacking Shubha's father for a trifling crime, etc. These are not errors but exercizes. They were right. The student has to struggle to explain them that he may understand morality (Expl on demand). But that is NEVER said.

The problem is that there was ONE man, who had bitterness. He kept a pot of honey for his people. The people want honey and shout out his message that Hinduism is all balls. Upper castes are taken by it and hang their head in shame. Do you now require a mussallman to explain your religion to you? Shame on you!!!


Shring.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Shringarey
riends,

The issues discussed here are the core of modern Hinduism. People just talked. Once I was tlking to the director of Board in Pune. He mentioned about Drona refusing to hire Karna (Sutaputra) because the school was ONLY for princes. At the same time the condition for his OWN son Ashwathama (Brahmin) was waived. He claimed it as nepotism. I knew that the Director's own son went to a posh school where he would not have met the criteria. He said he got it in 'Employees Quota'. Why then should Drona not get it in Employees Quota? That man was zapped. He just stood up - "YES!!" he said. He kept on saying "YES!!" several times. Is that nepotism? Funny man. Are the microsoft millionnaires nepotists? Who calls it nepotism? The Union leaders who want benefit (soap manufactured in factory t cheap rates) for workers!! Ha Ha.

There are issues like why did Ram abandon Sita? Ram is unneccessarily tarnished today without understanding. Did you know that Ram committed 108 'SERIOUS CRIMES' like Abandoning Sita, Cutting Shoorpanaka's nose (woman), killing Vali from behind, Killing Shambhuk a lowe caste for learning Vedas, Attacking Shubha's father for a trifling crime, etc. These are not errors but exercizes. They were right. The student has to struggle to explain them that he may understand morality (Expl on demand). But that is NEVER said.

The problem is that there was ONE man, who had bitterness. He kept a pot of honey for his people. The people want honey and shout out his message that Hinduism is all balls. Upper castes are taken by it and hang their head in shame. Do you now require a mussallman to explain your religion to you? Shame on you!!!


Shring.


Aao sikhaon tumhein ande ka funda
nahin hai ye mamooli funda

gunda bhi khaye anda
baccha bhi khaye anda

Shring QUO VADIS????????????????????

[risingsun]

nobody asked you to explain our religion to us shring. where the hell have you brought abandoning sita by ram into reservation discussion from. how did you jump to this issue buy the way? did you not have enough of bashing on religion already in other threads? tabhi maine pehle hi kaha tha, kidhar ko shuru hue, kidhar ko jaa railey? kuchh ataa pataa nahi. why do you try this gimmick of if cannot convince....confuse again and again?
you gave all those bull shit examples which are specifics. you cannot generalise that. but i will tell you what is generally happening today. i studied hard all the 2 years of my junior college to get enough percentages for me to get admission into a good engineering college from my city. (The college is ranked 1st in my university and 3rd in its category all over India, it is an REC ) when i finally got 95+ percentage, unfortunately STILL i could not get admission into the branch i wanted. On joining the college what did i find out shocked me to my core and made me anti reservationist for life. the very people i knew never gave a shit to how much they scored and subsequently did not study much and scored much much less then me got admissions to the branch i wanted so desparately!!! Reason? they were from the reserved category. I did some calculations and found that had reservations not been there and the seats offered in reserved category been offered solely on the basis of merit (viz. marks in exams, uniformly accepted by all reserved - non reserved category people) i would definitely have got that seat. but did not, why? you think i am the only case. what examples you gave were very very specific, the story i am telling is with majority of people from generations on end. shoudl this start in private sector as well? hell no....
fotunately i did not experiance the experiance with DRDO which had come to our college for campus interviews, since i had been selected before it. DRDO came to the college for campus interviews and its notice said they had vacancies for only SC/STs. Other people were not at all allowed to be examined forget about hiring criteria or merits, not even allowed to be examined??? and who are allowed? wow, those people who had been admitted with such lower percentages than mine in the first place. even after that throughout these people had not scored above second class. i know marks scored should not be criteria, that is what you say, but mr shring that shows your capability, how much you can understand that subject.
in some southern stated reservations have gone up as high as 73% add to that reservation for women of 33% what should people rather males from open categories do? shoudl they go for begging, achhi bhik miilegi na "saab, engineer hoon saab, naukri nahi hai saab, do din se kuchh khaya nahi saab" bahut khush rahenge na aap, hamare bacho ko naukri mili ye brahmin ko nahi mila, va va va va, majaa aaya, aisa hi kahenge na aap?

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Shringarey
Senor, Rising Sun.

Probably I did not make the arguments convincing. I will give you a practical explanation. As you know several Kashmiris are displaced from their homeland. I am the VP of Kashmiri Refugees Relief Fund. In order to assist them, we started 12 schools in B'bay. These schools teach ONLY ENGLISH. They are factories producing English speaking girls. We then created companies to give HELP DESK services to employ these girsl. These companies have clients like GE Capital (US), GE (US), Metlife(US), BC Tel (Can), amongst others. The clients are satisfied, the companies are satisfied, the workers are satisfied. These girls DO NOT EVEN HAVE GRADUATION. In order to create this, we did not take Govt aid, but used our resources and ENTERPRISE.

Our boys and girls are drawing about 40,000 Rs/m (950$). That is a lot of income. With that income they are creating history. Buying shops, 2 factories, houses/flats etc. Our children are getting educated. Out of community pop of 12,000, we have sent 37 students to IIT/BHU-IT this year (all with low rank tho). 17 to IIM/BMIS, etc. Good ratio no?

Now we are facing opposition as follows :

i) Shiv Sena : "If they are non-graduates you cannot give them jobs. Give jobs to Marathi Graduates. We wil pass a law to that effect"

ii) Dalits : Is it fair that only Kashmiri people have access to these schools? We are 25% of pop, we want them too.

iii) RSS : Since your school does not teach Hindi, we will ban them.

etc. etc.

Here is a case where :

i) We refused to accept society's criteria of education and created our own (ENGLISH ONLY)
ii) Refused to accept society's criteria of selection and created our own (Kashmiri Refugees only irrespective of brains)
iii) Convinced people who were willing to pay to employ us and are creating wealth.

Is it fair to ban us because we have our own criteria of education and selection? Is it fair? We are not troubling you - don't trouble us. You feel that only way to wealth is IIT? Thats your problem. We are not stopping you. Don't stop us. What is so confusing about this?

About Reservation for Muslims in another post. Am I clear of this one or not? Do you agree or not? Response from both expected.

Shring.

Again we are discussing two entirely separate issues
1. Unfair (as you put it) treatment meted out to Muslims as a result of reservations
2. Definition of MERIT as per every individual's free will

Since you didn't reply to my arguments relating to 1 let me get down to discussing the second point :

You are helping the kashmiri refugees in your own way
Kudos to you for THAT :)

Now regarding your contention about Merit - what it boils down to in your case is that you want only kashmiri refugees in your schools - and the incredible maze of concepts you have thought up of have sprung up from this need of yours to keep a very distinct student-pack in your schools - You've gone on to blanket unrelated issues (industries and operators etal) to prove a point.

In your shringdom - every individual gets to have his own say regarding who's meritorious and who's not - the logical sequel to that would be total anarchy - Fiefdoms will spring up - discenible boundaries would spring up everywhere.

And you are utterly confused when you say that


i) We refused to accept society's criteria of education and created our own (ENGLISH ONLY)
ii) Refused to accept society's criteria of selection and created our own (Kashmiri Refugees only irrespective of brains)
iii) Convinced people who were willing to pay to employ us and are creating wealth.


You are talking about an isolated phenomenon - your schools in the first point - and 'society's criteria' as the rebel in you would have it is exactly what you are following - When I reiterated about Merit being the sole criterion for a ticket to higher 'status' in society you perhaps mistook it as meaning only people from IITs have such an attribute - Merit would loosely translate as possessing the right set of skills and proficiency in using those skills - now every job does not require the same set of skills nor does it need the same level of proficiency in using those skills - as somebody pointed out that you don't have to employ a CA for the post of a storekeeper (now if you argue that a private operator has the right to do that I would only grin and say 'good luck matey') - In the case where you teach English to kashmiri people and send them down to US companies you are NOT DOING something that falls outside the purview of the system - You are infact taking the beaten path - Who are you trying to delude when you say that you convinced the companies and are now creating welath - nay sir they are Business enterprises that operate with the sole purpose of making profits and their MERIT criterion for the helpdesk workers is that they should be fluent in spoken english - Had you been able to convince them to take in kashmiris ignorant of any foreign language lexicon and conversant only in say Dogri and employ them as profitable wokers THEN and only then would it have been something of a quantum leap from the mundane.
You lay supreme emphasis on the RIGHT TO CHOOSE according to individual whims and biases. I doubt if this dubious concept would hold water with most of the business operators as you label them.
And again you contradict yourself when you say that you send kashmiri people to IITs/IIMs etc - do they not have to satisfy the criteria set for admission to such colleges - again are they not being equipped with the 'conventional' skills which would inevitably conform to the 'conventional' definition of MERIT - why do you not shun these institutes??
What I WOULD agree with in this context is the springwell of these chimerical notions - your schools and your stance that you would admit only kashmiri refugees in them .

[risingsun]

lets see the points you have presented mr. shringarey.

1. There was a time when the S/W industry was hiring only technicians and 'body-shopping' them. Then 2 companies (Infosys and Wipro) started hiring non-technical MBAs). "To understand business side" they said. They were pooh-poohed. But they used them to go from body-shopping to projects and made a lot of money.But at THAT time, few people had that vision. Can you imagine Murthy explaining to a bureaucrat why he was hiring people who had NO tech knowledge?

<B> can you tell me, to understand business side if yo udo not hire MBAs then who do you hire? ya they are not in technical side, but then they have been trained to understand businesses whose technacalities they do not know...had this not been the case we would have had MBA in every industry rather than just in finance, HR, marketing and systems. the merit criteria to understand business side is not technical knowledge <B>

2. One of my clients has started a Luxury Carpet Mfg Co.He is hiring ONLY HINDUS. Reason? While other carpet mfgs are selling in India, he wants to export to US, Europe and Japan. Turkish rugs have 95% market share. But they only produce designs - not motifs. They will NOT produce carpets with pictures like wars and animals as figures are anathema to Islam. There is an opportunity for my client. Can you see the logic? What if he has to explain to a Commissioner nd get his permission? There would be a few Islamic workers who would agree, get employed and then refuse. He would have to pay them to sack them!! What appears as religious intolerence has business logic.

<B> ask him if a muslim is ready to do the work he wants his employees to do wont he accept them as employees? here the criteria becomes that the employees should do the work which employer wants and THIS IS UNIFORM FOR EVERYBODY, the one who does meet this criteria should not be hired again the merit here is NOT caste but ability to manufacture carpets that the client wants. <B>


3. I was involved with a Musk-Exporter (Kasturi). We had set up the best machines imported from France to capture deer and take the musk out. We had the best engineers. A competitor came and changed the logic. He employed Paasi tribals. These fellows can call a deer with a whistle. We got raped. We were forced to hire Paasis. But it was late. High interest cost on the machines forced us to collapse. Yet if a bureaucrat were to see it, would he not have considered hiring Paasis as caste based reservation? Would he have the vision?

<B> agin criteria is to catch hold of musk deers, if i can capture deer and take out the must better than the paasi's would you hire me? you should, that is the merit here my dear, ability to capture deers and getting the musk <B>

ab type karte karte meri ungliyan dard de rahi hai, baakiyon ka phir bataoonga.

[Shringarey]

Senor, Rising Sun,


nobody asked you to explain our religion to us shring. where the hell have you brought abandoning sita by ram into reservation discussion from. how did you jump to this issue buy the way? did you not have enough of bashing on religion already in other threads? tabhi maine pehle hi kaha tha, kidhar ko shuru hue, kidhar ko jaa railey? kuchh ataa pataa nahi. why do you try this gimmick of if cannot convince....confuse again and again?


I think fellas, religion is an ISSUE here. Ram abandoning Sita is the REASON given for 33% women reservation in the private sector (Renuka Choudhary). Similarly, Drona's treatment of Karna is the REASON given for reservation of Dalits in Pvt Sector (Kancha Illiah, Gail Omvedt Patankar). That is why this issue was brought up. See?

Shring.

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun,


you gave all those bull shit examples which are specifics. you cannot generalise that. but i will tell you what is generally happening today. i studied hard all the 2 years of my junior college to get enough percentages for me to get admission into a good engineering college from my city. (The college is ranked 1st in my university and 3rd in its category all over India, it is an REC ) when i finally got 95+ percentage, unfortunately STILL i could not get admission into the branch i wanted. On joining the college what did i find out shocked me to my core and made me anti reservationist for life. the very people i knew never gave a shit to how much they scored and subsequently did not study much and scored much much less then me got admissions to the branch i wanted so desparately!!! Reason? they were from the reserved category. I did some calculations and found that had reservations not been there and the seats offered in reserved category been offered solely on the basis of merit (viz. marks in exams, uniformly accepted by all reserved - non reserved category people) i would definitely have got that seat. but did not, why? you think i am the only case. what examples you gave were very very specific, the story i am telling is with majority of people from generations on end. shoudl this start in private sector as well? hell no....
fotunately i did not experiance the experiance with DRDO which had come to our college for campus interviews, since i had been selected before it. DRDO came to the college for campus interviews and its notice said they had vacancies for only SC/STs. Other people were not at all allowed to be examined forget about hiring criteria or merits, not even allowed to be examined??? and who are allowed? wow, those people who had been admitted with such lower percentages than mine in the first place. even after that throughout these people had not scored above second class. i know marks scored should not be criteria, that is what you say, but mr shring that shows your capability, how much you can understand that subject.
in some southern stated reservations have gone up as high as 73% add to that reservation for women of 33% what should people rather males from open categories do? shoudl they go for begging, achhi bhik miilegi na "saab, engineer hoon saab, naukri nahi hai saab, do din se kuchh khaya nahi saab" bahut khush rahenge na aap, hamare bacho ko naukri mili ye brahmin ko nahi mila, va va va va, majaa aaya, aisa hi kahenge na aap?


I sympathise with you Sir, but the issue is you are mentioning cases NOT AT ALL PERTINENT TO PVT SECTOR - infact all your cases are of PUBLIC SECTOR, where operator's right to decide the criteria is tempered with Public Responsibility (not done in India). Plz talk of private sector.

Shring.

[Shringarey]

Senorita,


You are talking about an isolated phenomenon - your schools in the first point - and 'society's criteria' as the rebel in you would have it is exactly what you are following - When I reiterated about Merit being the sole criterion for a ticket to higher 'status' in society you perhaps mistook it as meaning only people from IITs have such an attribute - Merit would loosely translate as possessing the right set of skills and proficiency in using those skills - now every job does not require the same set of skills nor does it need the same level of proficiency in using those skills - as somebody pointed out that you don't have to employ a CA for the post of a storekeeper (now if you argue that a private operator has the right to do that I would only grin and say 'good luck matey')


All I'm saying is THIS : YOU or the Govt or anybody has NO right to tell him WHAT constitutes merit. Let HIM decide.


- In the case where you teach English to kashmiri people and send them down to US companies you are NOT DOING something that falls outside the purview of the system - You are infact taking the beaten path - Who are you trying to delude when you say that you convinced the companies and are now creating welath - nay sir they are Business enterprises that operate with the sole purpose of making profits and their MERIT criterion for the helpdesk workers is that they should be fluent in spoken english

Sure. So what?


- Had you been able to convince them to take in kashmiris ignorant of any foreign language lexicon and conversant only in say Dogri and employ them as profitable wokers THEN and only then would it have been something of a quantum leap from the mundane.


Why should I want to do something so that you say I have done a quantum leap from the mundane? I have a refugee problem and I have to solve it. I am solving it. The govt of Maharashtra, when it says that my schools are to be banned because we do not teach English, has NO RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT I DO. Simple.



You lay supreme emphasis on the RIGHT TO CHOOSE according to individual whims and biases. I doubt if this dubious concept would hold water with most of the business operators as you label them.


Most certainly madam - they would CHERISH the right to choose. You are an entrepreneur - right? Would you not prefer deciding whom to employ rather having the Govt to it for you?



And again you contradict yourself when you say that you send kashmiri people to IITs/IIMs etc - do they not have to satisfy the criteria set for admission to such colleges - again are they not being equipped with the 'conventional' skills which would inevitably conform to the 'conventional' definition of MERIT - why do you not shun these institutes??


Why should I? They are good institutions - so why should I shun them? Just because I shun Maha Govt's policy on "Basic Requirements of Good Schools in Our State", does not mean I shun ALL conventionsal schools. Grow up lady. I am not a rebel. I have a job to do. If seeking conventional education seems good, I will take it. However, if it does not, I won't.

All I am saying is that Govt should not have reservations or anti-reservation laws. You are transgressing on freedoms. Let free market prevail. I DONT want to give reservations to Dalits - plz don't force us. We want 100% reservation to Kashmiris, plz don't stop us. We will accept certain govt's criteria if it suits our objectives (IIT) - if not, we won't. Don't pass laws stopping us (like banning our schools because we don't teach Marathi or forcing HelpDesk operators to hire only graduates because that would ease educated unemployed). That is all. What is wrong with that?

Shring.

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun,

Rising Sun,


can you tell me, to understand business side if yo udo not hire MBAs then who do you hire? ya they are not in technical side, but then they have been trained to understand businesses whose technacalities they do not know...had this not been the case we would have had MBA in every industry rather than just in finance, HR, marketing and systems. the merit criteria to understand business side is not technical knowledge

I agree. But that is evident NOW. When Infosys first hired MBA's it was NOT ALL THAT EVIDENT - as industry structure THEN was ONLY TECHIE based on a bodyshopping model. If the Govt then had passed a law THEN forcing infosys to hire only Techies based on logic THEN prevailing, it would have been a tyranny. All Im saying is that let Infosys decide what constitues merit - not u, i, govt or anybody. Buss



ask him if a muslim is ready to do the work he wants his employees to do wont he accept them as employees? here the criteria becomes that the employees should do the work which employer wants and THIS IS UNIFORM FOR EVERYBODY, the one who does meet this criteria should not be hired again the merit here is NOT caste but ability to manufacture carpets that the client wants.

I agree. But the problem is that the Muslim might agree to make the carpets and a year down the road say "Religious reasons". The union leader will create such a noise that we would be on the defensive. To ask the worker to go I would have to pay him. That is the reality today. You know that. I would rather not face the risk and ONLY hire Hindus. See?



agin criteria is to catch hold of musk deers, if i can capture deer and take out the must better than the paasi's would you hire me? you should, that is the merit here my dear, ability to capture deers and getting the musk

I agree. But that is evident NOW. When we first hired engineers and forrest officials it was NOT ALL THAT EVIDENT - as industry structure THEN was TECHNOLOGY ORIENTED based on a Hi-Tech model. If the Govt then had passed a law THEN forcing Industry to Hire Engineers only, it would have been a tyranny. All Im saying is that let individual operators
decide what constitues merit - not u, i, govt or anybody. Buss

Shring

[risingsun]

and i am saying criteria should be meirts, which implicitly means capabilities required to to carry out the duties for which operator is looking out for people and not caste or race. yes do have the right to choose all you want but dont choose a hardware engineer for the job of a midwife or dont go in for a hardware engineer for a job in hardware because he is from a certain community. I am sure you at least would agree that everyone will count knowledge about hardware as a merit for the job in hardware.

furthermore, my example was just to clear to you what we were talking about, i know they did not concern private sector at all. but introducing ram into whether reservations or not was tangent to me, so i wanted to clear up what type of reservations are we talking about. neither do i want your sympathies. denying that right to get what we deserve has been taken from youth of genarations near mine is because of people like you who support selection on caste basis. on top of that you sympathise!!! PLEASE DO NOT.

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun, Netra, Senorita.


I would like to explain my point using JAI HIND COLLEGE as an example (my ideal). In this college 40% of seats are reserved for Sindhis, who often get 45% marks, while at the same time a regular person who gets 80% marks does not get seat. This has been going on for years. Yet year after year, the college is rated in the top two colleges in Bombay. How is that when 'merit' is so obviously flouted?

Tell me, just because you got good marks, how does it effect the Sindhis who run the college? Really - why should they care? Saying that you got good marks ENTITLES you to admissions is like saying that because you got good looks entitles you to good clothes. How does it matter to the Sindhi Management? It matters because you CONTRIBUTE. It is in the interest of management that they get good students, who will do well in life, be in positions of eminence and thus improve the brand equity of the college. That is why they lay great stress on marks. That is the contribution of the clever.

What about those that score low (Sindhis). They are not given seats free. There is an implicit understanding that if they do well, they will contribute financially to the college (generously). This is enforced by the community. With moneys recd every year, they hire extra-ordinary teachers (salary = 3 times normal), have great research facilities, expensive international programs, great video-films (others dont have at all), etc. This is THEIR contribution. When you get upset that a Sindhi gets admission with ONLY 45%, you are NOT seeing the contribution at all. The sad reality is this - colleges run on brains AND money. Don't like it? Run a college with "Highest Marks" and see. You will die because of lack of funds. Try and run with "highest money" - you will die because of lack of brains. Simple!!

Incidentally, they also have 10% reserved for Dalits. Why? Dalits will easily get good jobs in Govt and help them with Govt work later. THAT is their contribution.

I gave the example of Infosys. If a student missed a job by one rank in a technical position he is upset. But were he to see that jobs were given to "non-technical talkers" (sales), non-technical psychologists (personnel), non-technical MBAs (Industry Specialists), etc he could get pissed off and find it unfair. He has to realise that a successful IT company require techies - yes. But also sales and Analysts. That is the reality. Him arguing about a person entering "only on talking" and considering it an unfair is missing the point. Completely.

Similarly, insisting on marks alone is missing the point. Successful schools do require funds you know. Jai Hind resorts to the strategem of hiring Sindhis as they will have a hold on them in future. If a Kashmiri does well, how will they ensure that he contributes? You feeling his admission is unfair is like a guy who did not get a job in Infosys feeling that employment of 'Talkers' is unfair.

You have a criteria for merit. But that is NOT the criteria followed by Jai Hind. You don't like it? Start a college based on 'Only Marks' - you will fail - just as an IT companies with the best techies and no sales would fail. Whenever you shout 'MERIT' please do not enforce YOUR ideas of merit on the operator. Your ideas could be completely wrong. That would be tyranny.

Shring.

[smellyfinger]

Shring,

That is fine. Every community looks after itself. Except Dalits. They want the government to take care of them. How many Dalits who are successful contribute to Dalit causes. Can they not set up schools etc for Dalits. No !! They still want the government to fund them. That is the part I dont understand.

And getting back to the subject of the thread, that is why I dont believe that there should be enforced reservations for Dalits in the private sector. For what?? The understanding needs to be there among Dalits, that the government and soceiety in general can help the first few. Those few need to help their own brothers, a sort of payback like you mention.

Ms. Dalit, can I ask if you contribute to Dalit causes ?? Or is it like "I got out, made it good, the government should take care of the rest. Why should I do anything?" ?

[risingsun]

I dont get, why you always jump to specifics. Sindhi college may have been started by sindhis for sindhis specifically. Like you started the schools specifically for kashmiri refugees. the number of such examples is verry small. I do not agree with the Jai-Hind College's criteria too but it is a private institution and as far as i know noboddy can force them. As i pointed out yesterday too, if everybody goes about establishing such institutions then social structure will collapse.

why dont we discuss about the majority of institutions in India which were and are for general masses, for common people of India like me? Because you do not have justification for reservation in such institutions.

No sir, i can bet only marks criteria college will not fail. The success of people coming out of a college defines its success. Why do people aim at getting admissions at IITs? is it because they have expensive equipment or is it because the salaries paid to teachers in IITs is more? or is it because People coming out after studying in IIT for 4 years are superior to their couterparts from other colleges.

[Shringarey]

Rising Sun,


No sir, i can bet only marks criteria college will not fail. The success of people coming out of a college defines its success. Why do people aim at getting admissions at IITs? is it because they have expensive equipment or is it because the salaries paid to teachers in IITs is more? or is it because People coming out after studying in IIT for 4 years are superior to their couterparts from other colleges.


IIT is a Public Institution, run on Public funds. We were talking of Private Institutions I thought. If it does not have recourse to free funds, it WILL fail based on "Marks only" criteria. Where will the money come from? In IIT it comes from Govt - so it can afford Marks-Only Criteria. The ex I have given is typical of ALL private institutions - not a small minority of them.

Shring.

[Shringarey]

Smelli


Every community looks after itself. Except Dalits.


THAT is the problem my friend - THAT is what I meant that we should change OURSELVES. If every educated Dalit decides to teach ONE illiterate every year, in 4 years they would have 100% literacy! Do they do that? No! The educated Dalits lead the illiterate to agitations - not education. THAT is the problem.

The Brahmins are dominant. We all know that schools were ONLY for Brahmins right? How can a Brahmin who goes in the forest, lives in penury, sacrifices his life to educate his fellow brethen be wrong? Brahmins had education because in EVERY generation there were 1 Brahmin in 500 who would be ready to sacrifice all by starting schools. Simple. Dalits had no sacrificers. So there was NO education. Simple. Rather than saying - Hey! we should be like Brahmins, they are saying Hey! Brahmins are rascals.

Imagine you are God (Blasphemy!!) looking from above. Who would you feel is good? - an educated Dalit who educates none but calls the Brahmin a rascal or a Brahmin who educates some (only Brahmins). Who would you consider good? Tell me honestly.

Once a big time regional Dalit leader told me - 'these Brahmins have no idea of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity' as they do not teach us. I said 'Sir, Brahmins teach themselves - they certainly have Fraternity' It is Dalits who don't have Fraternity as they don't teach themselves. Rather than helping his fello man he will go on shouting "WHY I AM NOT A HINDU!!", issue pamphlets, slogans, issue curses on all uppercastes, burn religious books, etc - but NOT help his fellowman." THAT is the basic problem here - that is!!


Shring

[chirag2000]

abs correct sringarey

educated and rich dalits do nothing for their class.
In fact most of the work done for dalits has benn by people of upper classes.
do u know that nathuram godse [a brahmnin] the main who killed gandhi was a great social worker and worked for upliftment of dalits.There are many more people of upper caste who have worked for upliftment of dalits.
Mr Bhimrao ambedkar was helped by maharaja sayajirao gaikwad of baroda.He game him money and sent him abroad for furher studies.
Dalits reservation should be removed from govt

[Shringarey]

Chirag,

I agree with ya. You know, 8 years back my people, Kashmiri Refugees were completely demoralized, as they had to leave everything and come as refugees. They needed help. They never went to the Govt for special rights. They talked to Tatas, Birlas and IIMs - NOT for money, but for free consultancy to help 'create wealth'. And we succeeded.

Our boys were poor as doormice. Some were selling Omlettes on the road with chai. We organized them. We told them to change their preparation. Red tomatoes in the outer ring, white onions in the middle ring and green coriander in the centre circle (Indian Flag) - that was product innovation. We called it JaiBharat Omlette (Branding). We had a jingle : "JaiBharat Omlette Khao, Desh Ko Badhaao". Can you imagine the way sales grew? Then we had red+white+green JaiBharat Lassi - "JaiBharat Lassi Peeo, Jugg Jugg Jeeo". Sales shot up again. Then we asked the boys to wear plastic gloves that 'cleanliness' impression is created (Value Addition). He started wearing a Blue and Saffron Uniform with a Turban (Kashmiri Colors). Our sales picked up like mad. Today those 50 boys are well settled. They have scooters, some have small hotels, ice-cream joints, telefax operations, grocery - all from savings.

We had a poor guy who was selling paan. The 'consultant' gave him a singing doll. Every-time the guy sold paan, he would 'click' the doll which would twirl and have music. This created an excitement and sales of 'Bahulaawallah Paan' grew. Then he wore gloves (cleanliness) to create an impression. Then He took Toothpicks and pierced the paan - making it a 'luxury item'. Then he sprayed 'perfume/cologne' on the paan. Then put paan on ice. Always adding value. Then we had Sheelaajeet Paan. A capsule of Shilajit (a male vigour enhancer) would be taken and given to the customer to 'examine that it is not tampered'. It would be broken and contents put in paan. The local term for the paan is 'Choduraam Paan' (fukking paan). Then he took 'Party Orders'. Today he has 40 employees in 'back-office' for party-order fulkfillment. Now we give 10 of those jobs (25% reservation) to Dalits? Crazy or what?

Dalits are talking to wrong people I think. They ask politicians for special rights (Gundagiri) while we ctalk to Business Experts (Wealth Creators). That is the difference

Shring

[soochak]

friends...

the last few posts reflect the perception that brahmins have fraternity and help each other...so dalits should too...and there are no sacrificers among dalits...

i think the comparisons don't hold good.

one, brahmins can afford to help other brahmins, they have enough money and resources to do so, from time immemorial...they have been the safeguarders of knowledge, and have economically benefitted greatly, whether in a king's court, or in british days, or in bureaucracy, now in IT.

dalits have seen and still see only filth around them, and those who have benefited from the reservation might have a different psyche. i won't pretend to defend them. my attempt is to try and understand this whole phenomenon.

i don't have any proof to show that dalits do or do not help their fellow community members...neither do i find a great number of brahmins helping their fellowmen.

by the way, there are hardly any poor brahmins, there hardly have ever been.

for everyone who might want to react violently, i am a 'brahmin' myself.

i want to ask just one question to all: do we really want a country completely segregated where brahmins will help only brahmins, and dalits only dalits and muslims only muslims? how will we ever achieve unity?

we are moving more and more towards a divided society, don't you think?

[Netra]

Soochak, maybe you haven't seen poor Brahmins but I have. To be precise, my husband's family have a religious guru who is residing in a village and whenever we go there we see Brahmins who are so skinny you can see their ribs. The only thing Brahmin about them is the holy thread round their necks.

[soochak]

did you ever find out how they (the brahmins) got to be poor?
was it because as a community they were denied the access to resources, or was it because they squandered it away, or was it a naturally calamity?

soochak

[Senorita]

Borrowed from an Archie comic book -

Archie and Betty are wandering in some desolate place and suddenly a snowstorm hits em from all sides. They have forgotten their anoraks back home . There's only one way to stay alive n warm .Archie says to Betty -



Divided we freeze
United we don't



:D

[soochak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Senorita


Divided we freeze
United we don't

for once i tend to agree with you.

soochak

[Senorita]

Originally posted by soochak
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Senorita


Divided we freeze
United we don't

for once i tend to agree with you.

soochak

agree with what?

kya winters mein gareeb brahmins aur daliton ko gale milke khade/lete rehna chahiye?

:confused:

:D

[Netra]

Soochak, I have no idea what these people did with their money if ever they had any. Their source of income is as pujaris in temples and are earning only a meagre income if any. Like I said the only thing which differentiates them from the Dalits in the village is the thread.

I am from a Saraswat Brahmin community myself but my family didn't have any ancestoral (does this word exist?) fortune. The money came from a business which my grandfather started late in his life. Prior to this, my father was doing morning college and working as well to keep the family going. So I don't know where you got the idea that Brahmins were rich.

I suppose it is the Vaishyas who should be rich since they are in business.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Netra
Soochak, I have no idea what these people did with their money if ever they had any. Their source of income is as pujaris in temples and are earning only a meagre income if any. Like I said the only thing which differentiates them from the Dalits in the village is the thread.

I am from a Saraswat Brahmin community myself but my family didn't have any ancestoral (does this word exist?) fortune. The money came from a business which my grandfather started late in his life. Prior to this, my father was doing morning college and working as well to keep the family going. So I don't know where you got the idea that Brahmins were rich.

I suppose it is the Vaishyas who should be rich since they are in business.

brahmin bolta hai vaishya rich hai
shudra bolta hai brahmin paisa daba ke rakha hai
vaishya bolta hai kshatriya paisa loot ke le gaya
kshatriya bolta hai ab wo zamana kahan raha

To phir aakhir paisa sala gaya kahaaan?????????

:D

[laal_langot]

Ismein Videshi taakaton ka haath hai....ISI ke log

[Netra]

brahmin bolta hai vaishya rich hai
shudra bolta hai brahmin paisa daba ke rakha hai
vaishya bolta hai kshatriya paisa loot ke le gaya
kshatriya bolta hai ab wo zamana kahan raha
To phir aakhir paisa sala gaya kahaaan?????????


politicians ke jeb mein. :D :D :D

[risingsun]

Dalits reservation should be removed from govt
__________________
chirag w
------------------------------------------------------
Chirag,

I agree with ya.

as mr. shringarey too agrees as is evdently clear from above, is it now safe to say that we all agree that there should be NO RESERVATIONS in any sector?

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Netra


politicians ke jeb mein. :D :D :D

I must reiterate - Please do not indulge in frivolous behaviour. We are all educated and civilised beings and need not spar in such a loathesome manner.

Please do not go wayward whilst discussing relevant topics.

Senorita is an exemplary role model for everybody on the boards.

Kindly maintain the decorum.

:D

[laal_langot]

This thread is going nowhere....will have to close it....Langot your posts are all REPEATS.....will be deleted in two days

[Senorita]

I demand legal action against anti social elements on borad this ship.

Nobody who acts irresponsibly shall escape with impunity.

[perfect_storm]

Originally posted by soochak
Dalits have yet to come into mainstream intself. Large scale privatisation seems to have left them out of the ambit of development and progress.

Historical reasons have contributed to their staying out of the 'mainstream'. Can reservation in private sector help them enjoy the benefits of progress?

I think so

soochak

Bhaiya Soochak, itna jyada mat socho ki aun-shunt sochne lago. VP kam tha kya daliton ke liye soochane ke liye jo tum bhi soochne lage. Senorita favourite position ki sochne me lagi hai aur aap abhi tak dalit me hi aatke hue ho.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by perfect_storm


Bhaiya Soochak, itna jyada mat socho ki aun-shunt sochne lago. VP kam tha kya daliton ke liye soochane ke liye jo tum bhi soochne lage. Senorita favourite position ki sochne me lagi hai aur aap abhi tak dalit me hi aatke hue ho.

please be relevant whilst posting posts or posts' posting i mean whatever...

do not bring over unsolicited stuff from one thread to the other...This might further complicate the issue -

Dalits - Should they be allowed to have sex and if yes what quota of kamasutra positions should be reserved for them to enable them to derive more pleasure out of the act of procreation - this being examined in the background of thousands of years of monotonous missionary thingy!!!

[soochak]

me too is Saraswat. similar histories...even my parents worked and went to evening college. but they had evening colleges to go to...which took them in.

ask your dad about how they treated the dalits in their village. i've asked mine, he still does not let me touch the koragaas of south kanara...

i speak with experience too
soochak

[Netra]

Soochak, first of all all my dad died when I was thirteen years old.

Secondly my dad was born and brought up in Mumbai. In fact his family was one of the first 12 to have moved to Mumbai when the Portuguese invaded Goa. So even if he was alive he wouldn't know how the dalits were treated in villages.

Cheers and nice to have met a fellow SB.

[soochak]

very sorry, didn't mean to get personal.

soochak

[perfect_storm]

Originally posted by Senorita


please be relevant whilst posting posts or posts' posting i mean whatever...

do not bring over unsolicited stuff from one thread to the other...This might further complicate the issue -

Dalits - Should they be allowed to have sex and if yes what quota of kamasutra positions should be reserved for them to enable them to derive more pleasure out of the act of procreation - this being examined in the background of thousands of years of monotonous missionary thingy!!!

Now what u r doing ..same mixing the threads together.
if u do it's fine for others it's not. Issues are always complicated that's why we call issues and we discuss it, if there is no complication that means there is no issue to discuss no issue to fights everything is COOL.

[Netra]

No problem Soochak. My dad is only physically dead. He has always been my ideal and will always live in my heart. I don't know whether you have seen the film "Anand" starring Rajesh Khanna. Well my father was like that. He knew he was dying but even then made it a point to do service to others. He was also the most secular person I have come across. On Christmas, he made us visit all his Christian friends and on Eid we were invariably invited to his Muslim friends' place for lunch.

[Senorita]

Should we have reservation for Dalits in private sector

[risingsun]

NO NO NO, first no for we should not have reservations in private sector, second for lets not start all over again, third for lets no senti maaring in the middle of such a topic. if we have to do it, lets send PM.

[laal_langot]

Shanno Lal ke hum sabb kritagy hain humhaara maarg darshan karne ke liye....Shanno baba ke liye reservation server pe honi hi chahiye

[perfect_storm]

Originally posted by Senorita
Should we have reservation for Dalits in private sector

No, we should not have reservation neither in private nor in government (but it's there). There should not be any kind of reservation for anybody. Instead it will better if gov. will help them for the good education.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Senorita


Shring

you are perhaps refuting your own point...the agenda as it seems to be is

1. setting past wrongs right
2. zeroing in on the culprits
3. making the culprits pay for those wrongs
4. making sure 'others' (meaning the set of people left when you exclude the subsets '****ers' and the '****ed' from the superset that is 'Society') do not suffer in the process.

1 is okay...noble..charming

2/3/4 are all controversial - the thread started with reservation in the backdrop of casteism and has now the muslim 'angle' in too....who is going to decide who are the culprits....you cannot rewrite history for the benefit of a particular section....I hope this doesn't degenerate in to a bone of contention but do you not remember the muslim influence in India..the english ruled us for only 200 years but the muslims did so for multiple centuries...so much so that they have now become a part of the indian society...weren't they culprits too...of being the perpetrators of atrocious crimes against the then indian folks...of plundering our welath and defaming our 'hindu' heritage...why shouldn't they pay?? pay the hindu samaaj back what you took away in terms of our the then unblemished hindu identity, our material wealth and compunction for the mental agonies inflicted on us....Nay sir this isn't a balance sheet kinda stuff..You are out on a mission to bring to a par the 'liabilities' and the 'assets' and you have already established the identities of the 'creditors and the 'debtors'!!!!! no this doesn't work this way!
Seen with a jaundiced perspective
only the hindu uppercastes appear to be the culprits but was not everybody including muslims and christians subjected to the same dynamic changes over the period of centuries...you say you are being logical and rational .. how can you then make such categorisations and compartmentalised accusations...like it or not - Society Mr. Shring is not an aggregate of different sects but it's a whole living throbbing pulsating being and every appendage affects/is affected by changes/stimuli to others....



Shring

any answers???

[Shringarey]

Soochak,

There is a woman (I'll name her Rubayat). She was brutally abused by the BSF. She is there in Kashmiri Refugee Colony - poor as a door-mice. With emotional support she is recovering from trauma. She wanted to join DSE. She missed by 2 ranks. When I went to her place she said " Succo, Do Places na kowat Hotey" - Ive missed by 2 ranks. We looked at each other - nothing was said. But BOTH ere thinking the same. The seat was USURPED, yes STOLEN by a Dalit who was far, far better off.

You feel bad about Dalits, just visit our Colony ONCE. When you want them to prosper, plz NOT AT OUR COST. You feel sorry for them, do something for them like I am. Don't sit and fel sorry, TAKE from us to GIVE them. You become a hypocrite.

You have NO idea of what anguish my people are going. You feel upset that some people are not touched? Our people are KILLED. The Kashmiri Pandits are 'treated like women' by the Pakis. They have seen their children burnt before their eyes. More than 50000 people are Killed every year. People die of starvation, fear, tyranny. Just don't look at ONE people and talk. There are others worse off. Don't give the Dalits at OUR expense. Wanna help them? Go out and help them - Im not stopping ya.

BTW, my mom was a GSB from Goa. She was a refugee too. Her family ran away to Nepal because they refused to install a statue of Jesus Christ in Mangueshi Temple. She married my father, a Muslim.

Shring.

[Senorita]

Originally posted by Shringarey
Soochak,

There is a woman (I'll name her Rubayat). She was brutally abused by the BSF. She is there in Kashmiri Refugee Colony - poor as a door-mice. With emotional support she is recovering from trauma. She wanted to join DSE. She missed by 2 ranks. When I went to her place she said " Succo, Do Places na kowat Hotey" - Ive missed by 2 ranks. We looked at each other - nothing was said. But BOTH ere thinking the same. The seat was USURPED, yes STOLEN by a Dalit who was far, far better off.

You feel bad about Dalits, just visit our Colony ONCE. When you want them to prosper, plz NOT AT OUR COST. You feel sorry for them, do something for them like I am. Don't sit and fel sorry, TAKE from us to GIVE them. You become a hypocrite.

You have NO idea of what anguish my people are going. You feel upset that some people are not touched? Our people are KILLED. The Kashmiri Pandits are 'treated like women' by the Pakis. They have seen their children burnt before their eyes. More than 50000 people are Killed every year. People die of starvation, fear, tyranny. Just don't look at ONE people and talk. There are others worse off. Don't give the Dalits at OUR expense. Wanna help them? Go out and help them - Im not stopping ya.

BTW, my mom was a GSB from Goa. She was a refugee too. Her family ran away to Nepal because they refused to install a statue of Jesus Christ in Mangueshi Temple. She married my father, a Muslim.

Shring.


You either are very adept at evading issues or you are a fool..........
give answers to the following :

the thread started with reservation in the backdrop of casteism and has now the muslim 'angle' in too....who is going to decide who are the culprits....you cannot rewrite history for the benefit of a particular section....I hope this doesn't degenerate in to a bone of contention but do you not remember the muslim influence in India..the english ruled us for only 200 years but the muslims did so for multiple centuries...so much so that they have now become a part of the indian society...weren't they culprits too...of being the perpetrators of atrocious crimes against the then indian folks...of plundering our welath and defaming our 'hindu' heritage...why shouldn't they pay?? pay the hindu samaaj back what you took away in terms of our the then unblemished hindu identity, our material wealth and compunction for the mental agonies inflicted on us....Nay sir this isn't a balance sheet kinda stuff..You are out on a mission to bring to a par the 'liabilities' and the 'assets' and you have already established the identities of the 'creditors and the 'debtors'!!!!! no this doesn't work this way!
Seen with a jaundiced perspective
only the hindu uppercastes appear to be the culprits but was not everybody including muslims and christians subjected to the same dynamic changes over the period of centuries...you say you are being logical and rational .. how can you then make such categorisations and compartmentalised accusations...like it or not - Society Mr. Shring is not an aggregate of different sects but it's a whole living throbbing pulsating being and every appendage affects/is affected by changes/stimuli to others....

[Shringarey]

Senorita,

I don't know what you are talking about. Of course there were tumultous changes going on in the past. Who denies them? All I'm saying is this : Just because there were oppressors and oppressed in the past, does not mean that there should be revenge today. That is all.

The same people who say that Reservation is OK due to past wrongs by Brahmins also say that BREAKING OF BABRI MASJID is wrong. You can't have it BOTH ways. If you accept reservations as right for past wrongs then you will also have to accept the foll :

i) Brahmin right to detruct mosques.
ii) Goan Right to destroy Churches.
iii) Adi-Dravida right to rape Dalits (after all Dalits DID rape them in Kakana Kote in 8th cetury right?)
iv) Vaisya right to destroy Budhists (for rape of Vaisyas by Baladitya)
etc.etc.

How far can you go back?

Response Expected.

Shring.

[saverewaligadi]

har jagah jeen aharaam kar rakhha hain. School ho ya college, chale aatey hain yeh bhikhmange admission ke liye haath failaye.


Bhikari ko bheekh nahi dena chahte to nahi de sakte, parantu een bhikariyon ko to sarkar hi prasthapit karti hain. Bahut anyay hoga agar yeh bhangi apna kuda kachra lekar naukriya bhi hathiyane lage to.