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Indian
April 11th, 2001, 08:37 PM
Can the satellite being launched by the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle in the middle of this year be used for spying? This is the question worrying international space circles. In a couple of months, ISRO’s tested and proven launcher, the PSLV, will launch a remote sensing satellite called The Evaluation Satellite.

ISRO, of course, is very clear it will be used for remote sensing and related technologies. In fact, ISRO chairman Dr K Kasturirangan described it as an advanced technology satellite whose mission is to test various future remote sensing technologies that will be used in cartographic satellites. It has been listed, in ISRO’s own decade plan, under experimental or test satellites, along with the GSAT that is to go up on the GSLV in a week’s time.

Like all ISRO satellites, this one too is under production at the ISRO Satellite Centre in Bangalore. The issue of what purposes the data it generates can be used for arises now only because this satellite will be launched at a lower orbit than India's usual remote sensing satellites (of the Indian Remote Sensing series).

Until now, ISRO has maintained that data from its remote sensing satellites cannot be used for spying purposes as their resolution is not good enough to enable the detection of man movement or even troop movement. The IRS series has a resolution of about 5.8 metres, which means you can see the tree coverage in an area, but not the individual trees.

The question of whether the ISRO satellites’ imagery could be used for spying or detecting troop movement initially came up after the Kargil invasion two years ago. Suddenly, everyone was wondering why ISRO had never given the country’s armed forces any advance intimation about Pakistani movement on the Himalayan ranges.

The accusation made ISRO indignant. "We are purely a peace time programme devoted to achieving civilian objectives, economic development, communication and so on," ISRO chairman Dr K Kasturirangan had then told rediff.com. "We do not make or deploy spy satellites."

ISRO has always been wary of being linked with the Indian defence programme, a connection that is inevitable because the same rocket technology is used to make missiles and launchers. But scientists are now wondering how much longer the Indian space programme can remain completely sanitised and not help other government agencies like the defence establishment. Until now, ISRO genuinely did not have the wherewithal to facilitate aerial spying. After the next PSLV launch, though, that may no longer remain an issue.

In terms of technology enhancement, TES is certainly a quantum leap over its existing satellites. The very first IRS satellites provided a resolution of just 36 metres. The new under-development IRS-P5, which ISRO has named CARTOSAT, will have two panchromatic cameras with a spatial resolution of 2.5 metres.

This satellite will be placed in a 617 km polar sun-synchronous orbit that can give a revisit capacity of five days. That, in layman’s language, means the satellite can cover the same terrain every five days. Whoever sees the resulting data can easily detect any changes or movements that have occurred over those five days, making it possible for it to be used as a spy satellite. According to Dr Rangan, the CARTOSAT will be launched within the next two years.

ISRO has always maintained it does not directly supply images to Indian defence establishments or any other Government agencies. However, ISRO sources explain that anyone can easily buy satellite imagery from ISRO through the National Remote Sensing Agency at Hyderabad. Even international agencies can do so through the American Agency Space Imaging Centre.

However, neither ISRO nor its American distributor is willing to reveal whether Indian defence establishments have either bought or been given aerial imagery which could have been used as aerial surveillance for military purposes. ISRO clearly states it cannot disclose who its clients are, but admits that anyone can buy its imagery.

Spy satellites have been used the world over, especially in the US and the USSR, for a long time now. Reports indicate the new American dispensation under President George W Bush is even more inclined to facilitate the deployment of spy satellites and other weaponry in space and to legalise anti-satellite weaponry.

By some global estimates, about 1,500 new satellites will be launched internationally over the next decade to add to the estimated 600 that are now in orbit. Billions of dollars have already been invested in space by various countries, big and small. The US alone is known to have invested about $ 100 billion in space science so far. Russia has developed and tested 140 booster rockets while the US has only developed one new booster rocket over the past 20 years.

China and Japan are rapidly catching up with these advanced countries. And India, despite its smaller size and economic backwardness, is not far behind. China, which recently launched a high-resolution commercial imaging satellite, plans to place a human in orbit for the first time. Japan too has embarked on a satellite reconnaissance programme of its own that will give its military greater autonomy from the United States.

Meanwhile, everyone outside India is busy making anti-satellite laser weapons and new computer tools to disrupt or corrupt satellite data. Russia is believed to have developed anti-satellite weapons, while China is said to be aggressively pursuing them. The United States, too, will redouble its efforts to develop anti-satellite weapons as the Russian and Chinese space programmes grow.

The US Space Command mission statement clearly states: "Protecting our ability to launch and operate satellites -- and denying an enemy the same ability -- could be pivotal to the success of future US military operations. The increasing reliance of joint forces on space means we must achieve space superiority in times of conflict. Likewise, we must be able to preserve civil and commercial access to space."

Many Indian space scientists firmly believe it is this avowed American objective, of protecting its own ability to launch satellites even as it hinders that of others, that caused the US to impose economic sanctions against India almost a decade ago. This led to the stopping of the Glavkosmos technology transfer deal, through which Russia was to teach India how to make cryogenic engines and stages to fuel the GSLV launcher.

The US government may decide to enhance its satellite defenses and space control capabilities. It may call for renewed testing of the Mid Range Advanced Chemical Laser, a ground-based anti-satellite weapon that was last tested in 1997, in the face of widespread domestic and foreign criticism. Russian President Boris Yeltsin personally intervened to try and stop the tests, warning the US against the danger of weaponising space. The US Space Commission had even considered establishing a separate Space Force or Space Corps of 30,000 troops, but that proposal appears to have been shelved as too controversial.

The 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty prohibits the United States from deploying laser weapons in space. However, Bush has said he will either change or scrap the treaty with Russia. He has also pledged to develop a more comprehensive missile defense system, which could include the possibility of deploying weapons in space.

Given this changing global atmosphere, ISRO might soon find itself drawn into supporting India’s missile defence programme with its satellites and rocket technology, despite its clear current objective of being a peace time programme committed to national needs. Since defence is a national need, will the Indian space programme not have to oblige?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/11spec.htm

padhu
April 12th, 2001, 05:31 AM
Good thread Indian. I know the ISRO satellitles cannot be used much for spy sateltie imaging right now, but i dont think its too far off for isro to develop one. We have the technology and the capability. Point is we dont have much of funding for this. Spy satellite cannot be just one satellite, it has to be like a constelation of satellites operating together, for it takes time to get move a particular satellite into a particular movement to check the ground in a particular area. During war this is crucial and time is off the essence.

Right now, they may be able to use it for reconocance, even though they claim they dont.

As for anti-satelitle missiles, i had posted it quite a few months back that i had sketchy reports that india too is developing anti-satelitle missiles. Whether on its own or using the help or russians is another story. The US never really dropped the star wars program. Everybody knew that once bush was elected we would see US aggresively pushing defence technologies ahead, so what we are seeing now and goign to see was expected. The cold war is still alive just the rules have changed.

Indian
April 13th, 2001, 04:35 AM
We all know that future wars will be technology wars , with hi fi equipment. India has a vast boundary touching various countries and facing different kinds of threats.
I think it will be really great for indian defense to have a support mechanism like spy satelite.

Imagine we have pakistan moving their troops, toawrds some remote place in rajasthan where indian troops cannot be placed continuously to monitor , army could be easily put on alert with a signal from this satelite.
we all remember kargil situation , we shouldnt allow this kind of situation again.

China claims it has satelite imaging system , which is commercial. Who knows ..it may be actually used for spying.

Author Said..
"Many Indian space scientists firmly believe it is this avowed American objective, of protecting its own ability to launch satellites even as it hinders that of others, that caused the US to impose economic sanctions against India almost a decade ago. This led to the stopping of the Glavkosmos technology transfer deal, through which Russia was to teach India how to make cryogenic engines and stages to fuel the GSLV launcher.
"
This puts an interesting question on my brain.
If India is successfull in launching GSLV this month , will this indian technology substantiate for Cryogenic Engines technology of russia ?

will this technology make india self sufficient for launching satelites ?

what do you say padhu ?

padhu
April 13th, 2001, 07:09 AM
Indian, one has to realise that a luanch of GSLV goes into crores and crores of rupees. Maybe india is well off but not that well off to , to go ahead and launch a dozen spy sats. The IRS sats can be used up to a part for sat imagnery but not much. Problem is with resolution. But i beleive that with a little tweaking the next gen of sats can have a better imagenry system. If things are expensive for india, they can join hands with russia and share their unused kzar sat units for imaging.

As for self sufficient, in launching GSLV and cryogenic engines. that hurdle is still far off. I do know that our scientists have tried to reverse engineer 2 of the seven engines that were bought, but for them to be self sufficient in them is still far off. One has to realise that say what u may, russia still needs funding for stuff and it does go to the world bank for that, so it cant directly mess with the US in anyway.

kameena
April 17th, 2001, 06:26 PM
Well spy satellites have their own limitations. Remember how the Indian scientists fooled the american spy satellites who were watching Pokhran and noone even knew what was happening.

So the CIA is back to good old days of having informers on ground.

aurangzeb
April 17th, 2001, 06:34 PM
This will be another failure of India for sure.

Allah Hafiz

kafir
April 17th, 2001, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by aurangzeb
This will be another failure of India for sure.

Allah Hafiz

happy arabian nights

padhu
April 18th, 2001, 05:27 AM
angu...can u be specific on what you mean failure of india. For what i know, its your country who is the biggest failure in the history of mankind.

If its too much for me to ask, why dont u use your brains sometimes and contribute in an inteliggent way to a discussion rather than just talk moronic bullshit.

padhu
April 18th, 2001, 05:43 AM
Angu here is something about what you call india's failures.

India today succesfully launched the GSLV , which will be inducted into the country's regular satellite launch system after two more developmental flights. The ambitious Rs 1400 crore GSLV project would take India into the elite club of five space-faring nations-US, Russia, Japan, China and European union- which have already crossed the geostationary milestone. See the anme pakistan anywhere ?????

tantric_yogi
April 18th, 2001, 06:27 AM
Indian, Padu, Kameena, Kafir
thanks for this thread.
Could you please elaborate on following..

...Is ISRO a public or privatedly funded org.?

...I understand communication, what are other civilian and economic satelite objectives in direct relation to India?

>>ISRO has always been wary of being linked with the Indian defence programme<<

...Why?

>>However, neither ISRO nor its American distributor<<

...why Americal distributor and what role does the distributor play?


all this happening in the land of lallulal?

kameena
April 18th, 2001, 04:51 PM
Yogi,
ISRO is publicly funded organization, which reports to ministry of science and technology, Which is currently looked after by PM himself.
But in the recent past ISRO has not solely depended on funding from the government, it has established a company called Antrix corporation, which sells the data sent by satellites to interested parties.

Civilian and economic benefits. Lot of them, weather prediction is one. Satellite and radar images help a lot. You can predict cyclones or Monsoons (which can make or break Indian economy). Also remote sensing applications include monitoring soil conditions, forestry and land use etc etc. Helps in planning.

ISRO is wary of being linked with Indian Defense program. Simple reason is that it imports a lot of equipments which are classified as Dual use, that means can be used for civilian and military use. American laws strictly control export of such dual use technology. If ISRO is linked with Indian defense establishment then it wouldnt be able to get many of these dual use technologies, because they are generally banned for use in Military establishments by US Govt.

Distributor is more like a marketing man. ISRO sends the pictures of regions which are of no use to India, to this guy who finds buyers. For ex if satellite sends pictures of Brazil then Indians dont need it. But a mining company in Brazil might need it. This guy does that role of scouting for buyers for a small retainership. Why american? I dont know honestly.

tantric_yogi
April 18th, 2001, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by kameena
For ex if satellite sends pictures of Brazil then Indians dont need it. But a mining company in Brazil might need it. This guy does that role of scouting for buyers

Kameena thanks greatly appreciated:)

slight deviation from topic

with thousand of satellites circling the earth
must be a highly competitive field...
What would it take for India to become a launch
pad for satellites belonging to other countries?
more successful launches I guess ?

kameena
April 19th, 2001, 12:49 AM
Actually yogi if you read Jane's defense weekly, 68% of satellites launched in 1999 were for military use. Means uncle sam wants to see which toilet you use. Images from these satellites wont be available for public use for obvious reasons. The resolution of these satellites they claim is so much that they can read your car's license plate number from space.

Actually PSLV (which puts satellites weighing upto one tonne in a thousand km orbit) launched a south korean and german satellite.

Actually big companies like Shell have their own remote sensing satellites.

Anyway for India to make a dent in this market, first it has to proove itself, have some 8 to 10 successful launches. Most important factor is cost. US charges around $6000 per pound of payload for lauching, Russians around $5500 and Arianespace about $8000.

Arianespace has the biggest list of clients and largest number of successful launches and it has a 3 year waiting period.

Recently chinese entered this market and were charging a third less than americans. But their cause wasnt helped much when one of their launches carrying a costly satellite called Apstar blew up while launching. This happened in 97. After that they have had a few successful launches. But you know one bad mark is a big pain. But slowly they are making a dent in a market dominated by Arianespace and NASA, Russians are not in race anymore as their rockets never take on in time and have lot of problems related to their economic situation.

The cost for launching G-SAT1 was expected to be around $6000 a pound, which will reduce with more successful launches in future.

So the main factor for India to get a fair share of satellite launch market is brand equity and cost.

Indian
April 19th, 2001, 01:25 AM
From an Interview with ISRO chief kasturi rangan..

How far has the ISRO progressed in developing indigenous cryo engine technology?

It is going on. In the last 2-3 years, we have mastered several technologies related to cryo engine development including the materials, development of pumps, gas generators, processes for fabrication and assembling including vacuum raising. So there is a whole host of technologies that come along with this. We have evaluated all these processes, overcome the problems related to these aspects.


It is against this background that one should see the first engine that we tested last year. We got good data and results out of that engine. In fact, the engine even performed for a few seconds according to the expected specifications. Taking all this into account, we should be able to now complete in the coming months a series of tests on the engine, leading to a full level of testing in the next one year or so.

We are also working on the stage configuration. The stages, as you know, are more than just the engine. The engine is a propulsive element. The stage carries the fluids, the propellants, and it also has control walls, plumbing, regulators and a whole host of things that allow it to work as a whole propulsive model. This also we are now working on. We should start the testing of the stage also in a year or a year-and-a-half's time.

These are complex areas. As of now, once we move through a few tests and reach a level of confidence, we can set up a very concrete timeframe and a stage that is very indigenous. I am confident that by the time we use up the seven stages that are imported from Russia, we will be in a position to replace them with our own indigenous stages.


more interesting details here in the interview..
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/mar/28gslv.htm