Boy sacrificed to please god [Archive]

Netra

April 4th, 2001, 12:40 AM

Dear Dalit,

On one hand you say that Hinduism is the most barbaric religion on the other you say that Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life. Aren't you contradicting your own statement?

You should also modify your statement about Hindus practising untouchability by saying that "some" Hindus practise untouchability. Your statement reminds me of the statement which some Hindus make that Muslims are terrorists. Just because some Muslims are terrorists doesn't make all Muslims terrorists.

You don't care what Javed Akhtar says because you don't bother to listen to reason.

My dear, if Hindus were intolerant, would the Muslim population have gone up in the last 20 years? Would so many Muslims opt to stay in India rather than go to Pakistan? Would so many Missionaries dare to come to India to preach their religion? Did you not read the fate of the missionaries who decided to preach in the UAE?

As a woman I could have hated all Hindu men for the treatment handed out to women as far as the Sati system and dowry system is concerned.

Would it be fair if African Americans start hating all whites for the treatment handed out to them previously and maybe even now in some Southern states?

What surprises me is that inspite of being a follower of Buddha, you bear so much hatred and bitterness to a particular community. If I had not known the preachings of Buddha, I would have blamed Buddhism for teaching you hatred.

By the way you can hate me as much as you want. I am a Brahmin (Saraswat), but I don't hate anybody and therein lies my strength.

HATRED IS A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

Regards,

Netra

jay

April 4th, 2001, 02:28 AM

Tantrik Yogi and Netra ...

Both of your views, I guess would be shared by most of us.

But it has to be treated without a mindblock.

Dalit

April 4th, 2001, 07:06 AM

I am not a brother but a sister,

Why do you say i have hatred, when i am saying the truth. Yes i am a buddhist. If buddha hadn't seen the suffering caused Brahmins, he would have never got us solution in the form of Buddhism.

How many of you know that Buddhism came to being because of Brahamnism. Buddhism is for the masses with out any caste system.

I don't care what Hindus did for Muslims or other religion, all i care is what they did to fellow indians and what they are still doing.

many of you say that we are talking about the past, my dear friends we are talking about the present, please visit the http://www.ambedkar.org/crime.htm to know what are crimes committed in the name of caste system.

I want set things right, I am aggressive. I have no hatred. Almost all my friends are Hindus, I work with them, i have party with them and I am a part of the society.

What we are talking here is masses In India. The majority are still suffering in India, because of caste system and Hinduism is a cause for it and its because of Hinduism is barbaric.

I was told I was born a Hindu, but I am not a Hindu, I don't want to be associated with a religion which professes Caste System. India will never prospers as long as we have caste system, we have get rid of it.

All the crusaders of Hinduism ask your religious leaders to ban caste system in India.

aryaputra

April 4th, 2001, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Dalit
...
My fellow Dalit classmates had to wear "cross belt" to prove the external prof. they where brahimns so that they can get good marks. ....

what is the "cross belt" concept? never even heard of it in my life.

Netra

April 5th, 2001, 04:44 AM

Big-G said

LOL !!!!!!!!.... that's the problem with these uni$exual handle names....... I think this is a serious problem. Anyone wants to discuss this?

Big-G, I have the same problem with your name. Does G stand for what I think it stands for?

Cheers,

Netra

Shringarey

April 5th, 2001, 06:36 AM

Netra,

I would tend to agree with you on this one. I have travelled a lot, seen foreingn lands, studied their history. I feel that India is the MOST humanitarian and non-violent history in the whole world.

Dalit, you want to project us as villains and tyrants. But we have here a country that DID NOT INVADE ANY OTHER for over 5000 years!! Tyrants? Does not look like it.

Friends, India has a 5000 year history and a 22.5% tribal population. What has happenned to the tribals in Europe? Wiped out. Middle East? Wiped out. Even in Africa, the Black Bantus armed with steel and horces wiped out the Kosians. A brown Africa became a Black Africa (They want to now hush over it). But in India, the very fact that a 5000 yr old civilization has 22.5% tribals SHOWS our unhostility - our non-violence - our respect for other modes other people.

Today the tribals are poor and bitter. They blame us. They hate us. But we never impoverished them! They refused for generations to come to villages and cities. They wanted the 'free forest air'. Even today vthey have contempt for city dwellers as 'backward and weak'. But if they want to remain in the forest, they WILL be poor. Why blame us? Blame their own ancestors. But it is easy to blame - easy to hate. You divert the problem from yourself to others. That is the basic issue.

Rather than saying : "Hey our forefathers screwed up. We cannot live like this. f we cwant wealth we have to create it. Go to cities. Learn. Get jobs. Save, etc" they say "There Upper Castes screwed up. They have CORNERED all the wealth. We are the victims. Hate them. Revenge! Give us this.n Give us that."

That is my perception of the problem

Shring.

Big-G

April 5th, 2001, 12:37 PM

Netra said:
Big-G, I have the same problem with your name. Does G stand for what I think it stands for?

heck, and I thought my name exudes Masculinity, machoism, manliness and all those wonderful things :(

Netra, you are right if you think what I think you are thinking. Anyways, so what is it that you think it stands for ?

(Hint:It has a hole and it can make sounds)

smellyfinger

April 5th, 2001, 12:54 PM

Big-G

Several answers come to mind .. G**D being the obvious one. The one you are referring to, I think, is Gun.

There are others matching your hint ..

gaspipe
gutter
gadha
gainda
gubaara (baloon)
guitar

etc... list goes on. Did not want to spend more than a minute on this ..

Big-G

April 5th, 2001, 01:07 PM

Well... you are smart !!

GUN is the answer. But i'd have wanted to know what Netra thinks.

Netra

April 5th, 2001, 11:58 PM

I thought it stood for 'girl' or maybe 'God'. Plain and simple. ;).

Ciao

Netra

Big-G

April 6th, 2001, 08:50 AM

Girl ?? Well, that's kinda close too.

'Cos I have always maintained that I am lesbian trapped in a man's body !

tantric_yogi

April 6th, 2001, 04:29 PM

BIGG JEE, lagta hai hum kumbh mela ka bichra bhai hai
same here. Since childhood I'v felt am a women trapd in man's body. Unfortunatly my woman too lesbian.
so many times this woman inside me wana hug other woman and so many times wana go to woman's toilet...you too?

smellyfinger

April 6th, 2001, 04:33 PM

Thats a great idea .. TY and Big-G get together and make some music. It will satisfy both of the lesbians inside you ..

:D :D

Big-G

April 9th, 2001, 08:00 AM

Tantrik, kya tu sach bol raha hai ??? Kyon ki kitney saalon sey mujhey Kumbh Meley key Black&White sapney aatey hain... kya teri left jaangh (thigh) par Kuttey key daant key shape waala TIL hai ???

Well, I don't really get the urges to go to Ladies toilets and all..i guess I am a bit subtle in that area. But I do get weird looks from everyone around whenever I am purchasing my lingerie ...

Smelly, we'll make the music, you be the conducter... Together we'll make millions !!

:D :D

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 10th, 2001, 05:47 PM

Hi Dalit,
As you said that u have got your engineering with a reservation tag on you, can you just tell me is this justified. I have seen lots of asses who donot know what an integeral of sin(x) is and who do thier engineering in electronics i think you too are one of them.
well i have this hatred for the sc/st because of them i had to waste one year to get into engineering even after getting a good rank, since half the seats are reserved for lame asses like you.
well if you have guts do answer to the thread that i have started.
BTW how did u land up in USA, as far as i know they donot have reservation system for lame asses like you.
(i donot mean to hurt u but i am blaming the whole sc/st's who donot know what hardwork is)

http://echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1065
Are reservations needed in India even today (http://echarcha.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1065)

What i guess from u is that dalits are namak harimi sale hote he,bcos govt puts so much effort on them and so much funding even then they betray their country and come to lick USA's gand

Shringarey

April 10th, 2001, 07:24 PM

Dalit,

You are free to be a Budhist just I am free to be a Muslim, and I have nothing to say about your personal convictions. However I would like to dispute two assumptions that you state :

i) Budhists are always tolerant
ii) Budhism arose to fight Brahmanism

Budhism saw its grand rise in the reign of Ashoka the Great. What was the situation like when his grandfather ruled (ie Chandragupta Maurya) ? India was divided into more than 2oo independent kingdoms, some of which were democracies, all Hindus, all with a common language (Sanskrit), with uniform measures, identical system of weights, etc. How do we know this? Well a young Macedonian named Alexander who was clean shaven, (horror of horrors! clean shaven in an era when hair was a sign of manhood!!) came conquering to India. He would be later known as THE GREAT. His historians have left records. We also know this from records left by Persians under the reign of Cyrus I (Emperor Kushruh). Of these kingdoms, the empire of Magadh (Maurya, Ashoka's gradpa) was the largest with an area nearly half of Orrissa. What does this mean? That Hindus ruled by a concept of 'Commonwealth of Independent States'.

Thirty years later we find an emperor (Ashoke) who is lrd of all India but its Southern tip, right upto Afghanistan. He is not a nominal Lord, but a real Lord as there are records of a South Indian King seeking his permission to enlarge his fort. We find that Hinduism is all but destroyed, Budhism is the state religion. Brahmins are persecuted and run into the forest to carry their knowledge. The establishment of the 'Kuna Law' where for adultry a man pays 5 coins, a woman forfeits her hands and nose. The disappearance of Ayurveda. (It was banned! why?) What must have happenned? From the facts we can surmise that there was a war of conquest - in sort fundamentalism. Do you know what the goodly Brahmins did during that period? Hid in forests lived in penury, but kept their learning alive

They did this for 800 years! What sacrifice!! Finally when the Magadh empire collapsed because of invasion by Huns (MihirKula and Co) and Sthayu Worship (Shiva) they came out. They re-established themselves. Not by bloodshed, but mumbo-jumbo, a far mor effective way. They declared Budha as the ninth avataar of Vishnu, placed Krishna and Raam statues by his side. Slowly over a period of a hundred years, India became Hindu - without people realizing that they were being converted!!

If you think that ALL Budhists are gentle think again. In Japan, people look down on leather works as they kill animals. If he protests, he is wallopped for being violent in killing animals while the walloppers are gentle Budhists who would not hurt a soul (Ha! Ha! thats funny)

My dear friend all religions have their share of intolerants. Hindus have by far the least - thats the truth

Next time I'll tell you how Budhism never arose to fight Brahmanism.

Shring

Big-G

April 11th, 2001, 08:32 AM

What i guess from u is that dalits are namak harimi sale hote he,bcos govt puts so much effort on them and so much funding even then they betray their country and come to lick USA's gand

Babu, I guess the one year that you lost has really numbed your brains. Open your eyes and look carefully. How many Indians in the US are Dalits????
That's not a fair statement, rite?????
If you wanna make a statement like that, make it for all the Indians in the US, and then maybe we can have a discussion, cos government puts efforts and spends money on every engineer.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 12th, 2001, 08:44 AM

posted by big-g
Babu, I guess the one year that you lost has really numbed your brains. Open your eyes and look carefully. How many Indians in the US are Dalits????
That's not a fair statement, rite?????
If you wanna make a statement like that, make it for all the Indians in the US, and then maybe we can have a discussion, cos government puts efforts and spends money on every engineer.

well Big-g let me tell u as far as i have seen i have not seen a dalit or for that matter who has come on reservation except some bc guys who did justice to what the government spends on them.
they are given waiver in their fees and a stipend good enough for s student along with the hostel fees.

well to tell u the fact Mr.Big-g government spends only on the seats that are given by the givernment(called free seats) i studied in a private college paying 35,000 rs per year when the assholes dalits who got 50 times more rank than me were paying nothing but getting some money from the government. BTW where does all the money come from(its from taxes FYI).
well Mr.dalit u did not answer my question do u think merit should be the way of selecting students or the caste.
Waiting for your answer, answer me if u are born to a single father(i mean it do not run away from this question). i have waited a long to get an answer for this question from a guy who had used his reservation
and BTW dalit do u think that u or ur family still needs the reservation?as an engineer u or ur family do not need any type of reservations.

smellyfinger

April 12th, 2001, 08:54 AM

Babu,

Your statement that government only spends on free seats is wrong. Have you heard of an institution called IIT. On average, government spent 2 lakhs + Rupees per student (and this was back in the 80s) for his 4 years at IIT. Now tell me how many IITians are here in the US.

SO you are saying that we should shut down IIT also.

What about all the other govt run engg colleges ?? The fees are subsidised, did you not know that. Or is your exposure only limited to private colleges.

BTW, I am not for reservations, but the statements you made are baseless.

Big-G

April 12th, 2001, 09:14 AM

BABU...i fully agree with you when you say that it is indeed frustrating to study your a$$ off, just to see someone else walk away with the seat just 'cos he was born under a particulr surname. Even I have seen this phase, and I was really bitter about it.
During my batch, an SC got an admission in a medical college after getting ONE mark out of 800. It is indeed really frustrating.

What I don't agree with is the fact about them coming to the US. Smelly tells exactly what I was about to say in this regard.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 12th, 2001, 10:30 AM

Well Big-g
Originally Posted by Big-g What I don't agree with is the fact about them coming to the US. Smelly tells exactly what I was about to say in this regard.
I had said that bcos, well they had been granted a seat by snatching the opportunity from one well deserved individual. As a individual who had done some injustice to their fellow citizens they have to cleanse them selves of the sin.And i suppose its their duty to serve the country(its some thing like a dog biting its own master)
well smelly comming to your point, well there was a friend of mine who worked his way out into the iit securing 42 rank(second attempt as i am), well when i asked him would he stay in INDIA or goabroad he said he would not stay in india which does not respect his abilitys but respect the caste from which he comes from.
Well no body, I think its even me who donot want their children to suffer the same plight that they have suffered.
and its a good decision on their part to come to US.(well this is only one of the reason).
Well think of how will the future engineers/ doctors would be if a person is granted an engineering seat after getting negative marks in entrance test.
Well this happened in AP 4 years ago ,a son of a bank manager got a seat in electrical engineering even after getting -4.5 marks out of a total of 200 in entrance test.

Dalit

April 12th, 2001, 10:30 AM

Dear Babu,

Reservation is not a charity that you are giving the Dalits. Its the Deal made by Dr. Ambedkar with government in place of separate electorate system.

You said that you paid 35000 per year for your education, if i had to pay that much i would have not got my engg. because my family can not afford it. That is the difference. Dalits don't have money like others have. You guys have exploited Dalits have made enough money. so you pay, we don't.

You have used preety harsh words in your mails. I would not like to stoop to such low level and answer to you in the same language.

I think I have made my point very clear earlier. I don't think i will or my family will every use reservation, coz i can stand on my own legs now.

Babu, why is that you are blaming only dalits for you not getting the seat. when i was studying in bangalore. 50% seat was merit seat, which included reserved seats other 50% was donation seats. Why don't u blame all the rich fellow who took away your seat. why don't you compete with them.

22.5 % every thing in India belongs to Dalits. No one has any rights towards. If you guys want to fight, fight with rest of it.

I came to US with my own effort, only place i used reservation was in getting the seat. Please dont take you frustration on Dalits. you can not change anything.

Dalits we have reservation as long as they dont become equals.

FYI, in Tamil Nadu, there so much competetion that even reserved canidates have to get high scores to get seat.

I don't understand your argument about quality of Dalit Engg. & Doc. Buddy, reservation is there only for addmission not for passing the exams.

infact Dalits are made to fail in internal just because of thier caste.

If you think there is a problem, try to find a solution. Don't shout at it.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 12th, 2001, 11:08 AM

Well Mr/Mrs dalit,
Originally posted by Dalit You said that you paid 35000 per year for your education, if i had to pay that much i would have not got my engg. because my family can not afford it

Well what do u think u dalits are only poor, i too come from a poor family. Well i donot want to go to personal level but i have to tell u that my fathers retirement money was used for my study.
Reservation is not a charity that you are giving the Dalits. Its the Deal made by Dr. Ambedkar with government in place of separate electorate system.

Reservation is not a charity but stealing, stealing the right of the individuals who deserve it .Well can u tell me which country has these form of spoon feeding apart from INDIA. There are unrepresented minorities in every part of the world and no country does this sort of things. Well if you are that much inclined towards the technical study then u got to work hard for this. Well i accept that Ambedkar has created this for u bcos he was a lazy dalit and wanted all the dalits to be like him.

You have used preety harsh words in your mails. I would not like to stoop to such low level and answer to you in the same language.

yes i used such a harsh language bcos i had been one of the guys who had to face the truth that one lazy asshole who had written the constitution had made some arrangements for his brothers, and i had to suffer for that.
Babu, why is that you are blaming only dalits for you not getting the seat. when i was studying in bangalore. 50% seat was merit seat, which included reserved seats other 50% was donation seats. Why don't u blame all the rich fellow who took away your seat. why don't you compete with them.

well sir atleast they are paying their money for that waht the hell are u paying.Just filling your pockets instead from the stipend which u get

22.5 % every thing in India belongs to Dalits. No one has any rights towards. If you guys want to fight, fight with rest of it.

Well i accept the fact that 22.5% of the Indian population is Dalits but that dos'nt grant you the right to take it by force. as U said one has to fight for that.

Well sir i would like to ask u a question
suppose u start a company, would u like to employ a person who got negative marks and who got the degree in the reservation catagery.supposing he has just enough percentage to pass(in this case suppose 40%).

Dalits we have reservation as long as they dont become equals.

when the hell are u going to become equal(is it when the country is full of engineers who donot know what an integral of sin(x) is).
when will that day come.
I don't understand your argument about quality of Dalit Engg. & Doc. Buddy, reservation is there only for addmission not for passing the exams.

well sir, the argument which i said was for the entrance exam which checks wether the individual is capable of grasping the technical courses or not. well to tell u the fact did u by any chance go through employment news paper. there u would find that the initial stages of filtering candidates for any job requires a test and the cutoff mark for sc/st's is far low than the forward class candidates

infact Dalits are made to fail in internal just because of thier caste.
well sir this argument is not correct, they are not fit enough to grasp any technical stuff why the hell would they pass internals
If you think there is a problem, try to find a solution. Don't shout at it.
Well this was the only sentence in the whole post that was more intresting. Got to ponder over it.

Dalit

April 12th, 2001, 01:54 PM

Dear Babu,

You will be behind bars if you where to identify your self with your previous message.

If you have the guts and stand by every word you said by Dr. Ambedkar and Dalits. Please send me a signed document. I can assure you that you will be behind bars with out bail.

I think its not worth talking to a person with so much hatred.

Reservation is legal, whatever you say. Its there for a reason. If you are effected by it TOUGH, better learn to live with it.

I am sorry buddy, i just feel sorry for. I was just lucky....

smellyfinger

April 12th, 2001, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Dalit
Dear Babu,

You will be behind bars if you where to identify your self with your previous message.

If you have the guts and stand by every word you said by Dr. Ambedkar and Dalits. Please send me a signed document. I can assure you that you will be behind bars with out bail.

Dalit,

How do you figure that ?? What section of which country's penal code are you basing this assertion upon ?? There is such a thing as freedom of speech, you know. Now I know that you are full of crap.

More likely he will be in a bar. Drinking beer .. maybe thats what you meant .. huh ??

Shringarey

April 12th, 2001, 03:52 PM

Babu_Hyderabadi,

You don't want reservations because your natural rights which you have proven by getting high marks is trampled upon. Good. You want the best-marker to be rewarded? Good!! But let me ask you a critical question :

What makes you think that just becuase you got good marks you are eligible to receive education?

Education does not grow on trees. Some-one has to produce it that someone else may consume it. That someone who produces has to be rewarded for it. To reward him, someone who is working hard to create wealth has to be taxed that you be educated. Why should someone be taxed just for your education? Is it fair?

You want education? Earn the Money and Educate yourself - or take a loan. Whats wrong with that. When you show your HIGH MARKS and expect someone to pay for it (by law) are you not taking from him his right to enjoy the money he has earned?

Thanks

Shring

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 12th, 2001, 05:47 PM

originally quoted by Shringarey
What makes you think that just becuase you got good marks you are eligible to receive education?

Well sir, i was not talking about the marks in 11th or 12th standard i was talking about the marks in the entrance test.
How do u think a person who did not do any hard work in academics for the most important thing in his life(i mean the entrance exam) would work hard and grasp knowledge.
Do u know why the entrance exams are made compulsary for professional courses, bcos by that test they make a rough guess of how your basic understanding is.
Well to tell you the fact, in my class we used to have a ST student who used to work day and night, but the only thing he lacked was the understanding capability and he still is in his 3rd year of engineering.
Education does not grow on trees. Some-one has to produce it that someone else may consume it. That someone who produces has to be rewarded for it. To reward him, someone who is working hard to create wealth has to be taxed that you be educated. Why should someone be taxed just for your education? Is it fair?

well sir, i ahve never told that people should be taxed, rather in the opposite way i gave my money to the college.
You want education? Earn the Money and Educate yourself - or take a loan. Whats wrong with that. When you show your HIGH MARKS and expect someone to pay for it (by law) are you not taking from him his right to enjoy the money he has earned?
well why only me cant SC/St do it, why would i doit when they get it free of cost with out working and instead of them paying they are given money in the form of scholarships. as i have told u i hail from a lower middle class family and i know what all difficulties i and my family went through paying for my fees.
well sir, what i intend to say from this whole thing is that the system of reservation was created by a lameman for his lame brothers and now in this competetive world its not feasible.

well Mr/Mrs.Dalit you did not answer my question, answer me if u have guts.
Originally posted by Babu_hyderabadi

Well sir i would like to ask u a question
suppose u start a company, would u like to employ a person who got negative marks and who got the degree in the reservation catagery.supposing he has just enough percentage to pass(in this case suppose 40%) after studying 8 years in engineering college instead of four.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 12th, 2001, 05:49 PM

Thanks for your support Smelly:D :D :D :D

Shringarey

April 12th, 2001, 06:19 PM

Babu Hyderabadi,

. as i have told u i hail from a lower middle class family and i know what all difficulties i and my family went through paying for my fees.

I appreciate your problems Sir, and sympathise with them. The Dalits too have problems Sir. That is why they have special reservations (Kancha Illiah)

Shring

Big-G

April 13th, 2001, 11:32 AM

Shring wrote:
What makes you think that just becuase you got good marks you are eligible to receive education?

OK. And who in your opinion is eligible for receiving education ?????

Shringarey

April 14th, 2001, 10:53 AM

Big-G

What makes you think that just becuase you got good marks you are eligible to receive education?
OK. And who in your opinion is eligible for receiving education ?????

What I am saying is NOT my opinion. But there are alternate systems in the world which do not give complete credibility to Marks.

1. eg. the USA where all higher education is private. He gets educated who pays for it. If a poor wants education, he takes out a loan. And with the higher income pursuant to the education, he repays the loan. The US people/system feel that just because you are clever means nothing. What you do with that cleverness is something. If you are educated and can make use of that education then and only then you get it. Several children of millionnaires (I know atleast 3), who can afford to get money from parents refuse to do so. They work for some time, accumulate wealth, take loan and get education. There is no mass bunking in US colleges. US is the only country where educational institutions never had too much revolution. In India, education was free. Filled with intellectual arrogance they let loose an horro called socialism. One of the reasons why socialism never took root in US is that having to slog for your education showed you early on the realities of life. In India, because of a fetish for Degree (which is cheap), there is no linkage between what is taught and what the market wants. In US, because people pay for it they are careful and non-relevant courses are killed automatically. Because it is costly, there is a pressure to evolve innovative educational techniques too.We value that which we pay for.

2. In Ralegaon Sidhi in Maharashtra, Anna Hazare has started a NEW concept. In his colleges only the WEAKER-MARKED students get admission. The logic is this : Those who are clever don't need education - they can manage very well. The duffers need is more.

I do not subscribe to EITHER of these views. Neither to RESERVATION nor to BEST MARKS. So plz dont ask me to defend any of these systems. I only wanted to say that we have so hypnotized ourselves with the 'Best Marks Most Rights' syndrome that we refuse to accept that other systems too could exist.

Shring

Shringarey

April 14th, 2001, 11:38 AM

My Dear Dalit,

How many of you know that Buddhism came to being because of Brahamnism. Buddhism is for the masses with out any caste system.

I do not believe that Buddha started Budhism to counter casteism. Here is why :

1. There are four forms of Budhism - Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Navayana. Of these, the first three have existed for centuries while Navayana started in the 1950's by Ambedkar. The idea that Budhism should be a challenge to Casteism is an Ambedkarite idea of the Navayana Budhist ideology.

2. Bhikkus were Religious workers just as the Sangha was a religious order (like Christian Missionnaries). The idea of using Bhikkus as a social/political/economic tool was first pronounced by Ambedkar (in Buddha and his Dhamma)

3. Traditional Budhism believes that Gautama left his home to find the cause of sufferring. Ambedkar propounded the proposition that he left his palace because of a conflict between his Sakya clan and the Koliyas over water. This is now being used as 'evidence' against Dam building

4. Ambedkar himself accepted that the Buddha was a Sakya prince (Budha or Karl Marx). However, neo-neo-Budhists (note the 2 neos) have now started called him a Naga prince! Anyone can believe anything - but to use it to as 'historical evidence' to counter the RSS's 'Aryans are from India and did not come from outside' is ridiculous.

5. Traditional Budhism believes in the 4 Truths - Sorrow , the origin of Sorrow, Destruction of sorrow, and the way to the Destruction of sorrow . Ambedkar refuses to accept this and calls it the 4-Aryan-Falsehoods (Budha and his Dhamma). Navayana Budhists may believe it like Hindus believe in the Mahabharata - but to use it as Historical fact?

6. Budha talked about gyanpoth (realized the conquest of sorrow) and a-gyanpoth (not realized). He specifically stated that the ganpoths have NO MORAL RIGHT to rule over the a-gyanpoths. But Ambedkar has suddenly used the terms to mean 'Mahaajan' and 'Sabbajan/Bahujan'. This is then interpreted as Budhism is against Hinduism.

From this it is evident that Budhism as a counter to Brahmanism is a recent phenomena. Sir, I firmly believe that every one has a right to practice his own religion. But to use that religion to establish history? - that is not acceptable!

Shringarey

April 14th, 2001, 01:53 PM

Dear Babu_Hyderabadi,

Well i donot want to go to personal level but i have to tell u that my fathers retirement money was used for my study.

I can understand your pain. But there is something that you CAN DO about it. I see that you are in the US. So you must be making a bit of money. How about using the money to help some poor person? Please understand me fully. Take your time. You are young. There are a lot of delicious things in life that money can buy. Buy them. Enjoy. You have a house to build, a family to raise. Have a good time. Certainly.

But somewhere down in your life, how about helping a few people get educated? Help them yourself - or finance them. It is not too costly. You want to educate a poor nobody? Do so. Or someone only of your cste or religion? Do so. Or only of your country - do so. Maybe a poor relative? But do it. Let your pain not go wste in hatred. Let Ambedkarites do what they want. Maybe they are right - huh? (or Maybe not). But change a little in your life. Let the anguish that your parents went through be fed with your grace and generosity. Maybe you would not be recognized. Maybe amidst great leaders and their great work your puny work will not be seen. That is OK. For the great bridge that the Vanaras built to rescue Sita was held together by the small stones the squirrel put. Don't believe it? Look at the squirrel's back. Even today there are the three stripes to mark the Lords Grace.

May Allah be with you - always

Shring.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 15th, 2001, 01:49 PM

Hello Shring and fellow echarchans,
Well shring, i always wanted to say that the type of reservation that they are getting today is of no good either to them nor tothe nation, i repeat its either good to them nor to the nation in long term.
well what i say is that as a wellwisher of india i would like to hear from you the other ways that it can be implemented
1) Instead of giving direct seats, give them coaching and see to it that they work hard for what they deserve.
2) See to it that they get promotions at right time and enact tough laws for people who treat tem badly and implement them toughly
3) create political awareness in dalits.
4) provide free education for economically backward class people only

Well i would like to hear more about the various other form of implementing reservation.
well dalit sir i would like you to comment on the above said ones.well u have not answered my question the question was
Well sir i would like to ask u a question
suppose u start a company, would u like to employ a person who got negative marks and who got the degree in the reservation catagery.supposing he has just enough percentage to pass(in this case suppose 40%) after studying 8 years in engineering college instead of four.

well sir are u afraid of answering the answer for the above ?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Dalit

April 16th, 2001, 06:33 AM

Dear Babu,

For your kind information, I do have company which is successful, and even before that i was involved in recruiting people for other companies.

I do not go by the marks the candidates have obtained in their degree. I have always used my own method of finding the right people for my company and i have really found great people.

Even, when i was in college, the companies who came to our campus never bothered to know about our marks , all they did was to use their own method of testing people. I think its same all over the world. I guess to answer your question. I don't what their marks are as long as they are good people.

Coming to reservation, All i would like to say is. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO QUESTION THE RESERVATION, Its legal and it shall be legal as long the reservation is fulfilled.

Smelly questioned me as to what country's penal code can i get you arrested.

Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989 will put you behind bar for 7 years without bail, if i prove that you had made derogatory statements on Dalits.

So i there request you be careful when you are abusing Dalits or Dr. Ambedkar.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 16th, 2001, 07:49 PM

Dear dalit sir,
do u mean that all the guys who come under reservation quota are basically high IQ students and they just for the sake of comming under reservation quota donot study well and after getting seat they come back to their original status(hey who the hell told u to do so, if u are intelligent then why the hell dinit u score well, you are not asked to do something in astrophysics or aerospace technology's) what you are just asked is a set of questions that summarise what u studied in the 11th and 12th classes.
well sir take the case of SAT,GRE tests in USA, the bulletein(that which comes with the exams application form) says that from the previous knowledge that the students who scored well in the tests are able to perform well in their studies as well as work. What's your answer for that.
well do u mean to say the students who get 2 out of 800 in medicine exam are actually intelligent.well i do know that marks are not a perfect measure of intelligence but marks do measure understanding ability which inturn effects the ability to use the principles in a real time environment.
well sir best of luck to u and ur company.

Shringarey

April 16th, 2001, 08:15 PM

Babu,

well sir take the case of SAT,GRE tests in USA, the bulletein(that which comes with the exams application form) says that from the previous knowledge that the students who scored well in the tests are able to perform well in their studies as well as work. What's your answer for that.

What r u trying to say? Dont get the connection

Big-G

April 16th, 2001, 09:42 PM

Babu Bhai...Dalit ku Sir nakko bolo...uney Madam hai !! :D :D

Dalit

April 17th, 2001, 06:02 AM

Dear Babu,

Its Ms. Dalit, I think you are fighting a losing battle. I can tell one thing you cannot do anything about your problem. I don't agree with you that you have get great marks to get good jobs. We all know we have a out dated education system. Its not based on skills but on "Mugging" the fellow who a Mug can get good scores. The Industry does not need such people.

Let us take my example. I am a person who got second class marks on in 12th and got an average score in entrance for BE. If I was a non-reserved student I would have not got a seat in BE. I passed out of Engg. with a high second Class( i missed my first class because of my internals - I think its because of my caste). When it came to Campus recruitment, I got all the jobs i applied. Infact TISL( Now IBM) has set a cut-off of 60% for attempting their test. I fought and convinced them give me a chance, they got what i am saying and gave me a chance. I got that job too. For them my marks never mattered. Infact top 3 students did not make to IBM.

I started my own company latter. Now I am in US, working for Fortune 500 company, with my family taking care of my business. I am one of the best employee in this company.

What, I am trying to say is. If reservation can do good to me, then could be good to other dalits too.

Babu, get a life. accept the facts. Reservation is here to stay, as long as all Indians become equal. So work towards uplifting all people, irrespective of Caste, Religion or region.

I Promise you we can have a better India, if all Indians come together.

jay

April 17th, 2001, 06:30 AM

Dear Dalit,

******************************************

Dear Babu,

Its Ms. Dalit, I think you are fighting a losing battle.

******************************************

Let us not judge who is winning or losing.

Congratulations on your acheivements but we are not interested in the laurels you recieved in life.

Reservation does good to the reserved and vice versa to the others.

What was the post, by the way.

Senorita

April 17th, 2001, 06:56 AM

YAAAAAAAAAAWNNNNNNNNNNN

so what's new?

Ms Dalit with lotsa hangups about her illustrious (?) background and meritorious academic feats (?)...second class huh?...so who cares...there are ppl who never go beyond the primary education stage but still earn stupendous amts of bucks...the point is also not whether the existing education system caters properly to the industry demands as far as quality of skilled professionals supplied is concerned...this education system with all itz faults is a here-n-now kinda thing...everybody wants to do away with it ..till that utopia of education which is so fervently striven for is achieved we gotta make do with the present thingy...

and the fair n just deal though it might seem to be a bit harsh to you is that those who score emerge the tops...if u can't score u ought to keep out of the race...

where's ur fightin spirit woman?????

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 17th, 2001, 07:44 AM

Hello Fellow echarchans,
I donot understand what the dalit is trying to convince me and to u all, does he mean to say that in a democratic state where the preamble of the constitution itself says that it does not discriminate between any individual irrespective of caste creed race and sex, why is that just because of the surname a dalit gets to study what he wants and a poor brahmin boy does not get it because he did not score well in the exam.
why is this two way approach, and why the hell spoon feed these dalits.
Well Mr/Mrs dalit can u just tell me why the hell is that the IIT's are considered the best in the world because they have proved their mettle by going through the tough and the most ardous and cometetive exam in the whole world. Do u think its all foolish.
Yes i did said that marks donot matter and what u are talking is about the marks in the engineering exam and what i am concerned is about the entrance exams. Well most of the intelligent guys fail to make a good rank in the exam when the dalits who donot even get 1/10th of what they get make up to engineering that whta matters to me the most.

Originally posted by me
well sir take the case of SAT,GRE tests in USA, the bulletein(that which comes with the exams application form) says that from the previous knowledge that the students who scored well in the tests(i mean in SAT AND GRE) are able to perform well in their studies as well as work. What's your answer for that.

what i mean to say is that the entrance exam thing is a time tested one and we are none to question it.
To tell a fact one of my uncle who works for DRDO said most of the dalits who come to work under him(he is a senior scientist working for AGNI Project) are not good at basics, and the level of understanding is too poor and they are paid the money for nothing.
Well mr.dalit what ever you may say, one day INDIA will see a revolution what INDIA saw during mandal comision roits. that would be the dead end for the lazy dalits who with out sufficent knowledge make up to professional courses.And come out of it with out knowledge.
Finally what i would like to say is that reservation is a meaningless method for upbringing the dalits they should be made to work rather than be spoon fed, which would serve the intrests of the country in long run.

Big-G

April 17th, 2001, 07:47 AM

I STRONGLY SUPPORT RESERVATIONS

Yeah...i just can't understand the kind of people who are opposed to reservations. Without reservations, things can get so tough and complicated. In fact government should make reservations compulsory. I mean, without reservations, you'd have to travel in an unreserved compartment, and man, it stinks like hell. Plus the TT also screws you royally (at least five hundred buck) if you want a reserved seat.
Reservations are very very important and should be done at least 10 days in advance.

Dalit

April 17th, 2001, 08:19 AM

Dear Babu,

What do mean by spoon feeding. As i have said before. 22.5% belongs to Dalits. We are talking about reprsentation. No one can take that from us.

Can't u understand a simple fact. That reservation is a legal. It is mentioned in constitution that Dalits have to get reservation in order to uplift them.

Even in US they have affirmative action. Here they belive that Whites will participate in uplifting fellow Blacks. But In India the Caste Hindus can never be trusted that is the reason reservation is provided in the constitution.

Buddy, you talking about revolution. Even i see a revolution when Dalit Come to power. We will see to that every Indian becomes equal.

We will create an equal environment for everyone and we will remove reservation then.

I am saying again, you can not take away reservation in an ill legal way. It can be removed legally only if all Indians become equal.

Don't cry buddy. try to do something about.

mano

April 17th, 2001, 03:15 PM

By resorting to reservation dalits are insulting themselves. Its like normal people using priveleges of the handicapped. That your forefathers and ancestors were abused is fact, accepted. Also agreed that that might have contributed to dalits being poorer than others, but resorting to reservation is like a lazy self demeaning way to to compensate. If i were a dalit i would be ashamed to use reservation. I am not responsible for what my forefathers did and Its not my choice where i take birth.

History tells us that huge communities and masses have had problems and social repression/suppression but they came up with a fight, not with some lame reservation system. If you are poor you will have to work harder, get merit and use seats that are reserved for merit.

Reservation not only is demeaning it also discourages the dalits from progress. By rewarding people for what they are not worth you are only making sure of complacency. It is only logical that as long as reservation exists dalits wont progress.

Just the sheer idea of reservation is so separatist. It differentiates between people. Divides them. There is no point talking of people coming together while reservation exists.

Everybody starts life at different points. Some rich , some poor, some dumb, some smart, some healthy, some retarded. That you are dalit is also in the same vein. You have to fight harder just like so many others.

Dalit

April 17th, 2001, 04:16 PM

thank you Mano for your lecture. I guess we dalits know whats good and bad for us.

Please give this talk to people like Babu.

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 17th, 2001, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by MANO
By resorting to reservation dalits are insulting themselves. Its like normal people using priveleges of the handicapped. That your
forefathers and ancestors were abused is fact, accepted. Also agreed that that might have contributed to dalits being poorer than
others, but resorting to reservation is like a lazy self demeaning way to to compensate. If i were a dalit i would be ashamed to use
reservation. I am not responsible for what my forefathers did and Its not my choice where i take birth.
History tells us that huge communities and masses have had problems and social repression/suppression but they came up with a
fight, not with some lame reservation system. If you are poor you will have to work harder, get merit and use seats that are
reserved for merit.

Reservation not only is demeaning it also discourages the dalits from progress. By rewarding people for what they are not worth you
are only making sure of complacency. It is only logical that as long as reservation exists dalits wont progress.

Just the sheer idea of reservation is so separatist. It differentiates between people. Divides them. There is no point talking of people
coming together while reservation exists.

Everybody starts life at different points. Some rich , some poor, some dumb, some smart, some healthy, some retarded. That you
are dalit is also in the same vein. You have to fight harder just like so many others.

well said mano, keep it up. well dalit is now dumbfound and has no answer for that.
well dalit u dalits are like that and god save you and ur brothers(beggars)

Indian

April 17th, 2001, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Dalit
thank you Mano for your lecture. I guess we dalits know whats good and bad for us.

Please give this talk to people like Babu.

Some times you have to listen to lecture ..or else how people would get educated ?

This kind of remarks only shows the timidity of people who cannot accept the truth/fact. When people do not have any supporting argument for their baseless arguments , they resort to such political/escapist statements.

I hate them !

Ms.Dalit talked about winners and loosers here.

Now i see Dalit loosing :)

Cheerz guys

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 18th, 2001, 02:25 PM

Hello indian,
Well thnx for your supposrt, well i hope people of india would come together to fight this evil called reservation one day.
thnx for ur support guys.
babu_hyderabadi

Shringarey

April 19th, 2001, 09:10 PM

Dear Dalit,

Let us take my example. I am a person who got second class marks on in 12th and got an average score in entrance for BE. If I was a non-reserved student I would have not got a seat in BE. I passed out of Engg. with a high second Class( i missed my first class because of my internals - I think its because of my caste). When it came to Campus recruitment, I got all the jobs i applied. Infact TISL( Now IBM) has set a cut-off of 60% for attempting their test. I fought and convinced them give me a chance, they got what i am saying and gave me a chance. I got that job too. For them my marks never nattered. Infact top 3 students did not make to IBM.

I started my own company latter. Now I am in US, working for Fortune 500 company, with my family taking care of my business. I am one of the best employee in this company.

Wov! Wov!! I dunno what to say. Make that a double Wov!! Your story is very inspiring !!

You know Dalit, right now I am going through a lot of pain. I have fought and fought and solved half the problems. But balance half remains. Sometimes I forget to look at the problems solved and look at the fights yet to come and I lose perspective - I get scared. There are times I have cried and prayed-a lot. Sometimes just staring in dull despair into space. There are times when I want to get drunk and lie in a gutter - it hurts that much. Sometimes my wife's gentle hand on my shoulder does not help (tho usually it does) I want to throw in the towel.

When I hear stories like yours I feel inspired. Inspired enough to fight one more day - one more battle. To bear the hurt and pain with fortitude and to pick up my own pieces and to go on.

I dont know what to say more. I just hope you prosper even more and go to greater heights.

With deepest regards and fondest hopes.

Shring.

rationalthinker

April 20th, 2001, 02:24 AM

Dalit started this thread to denounce Hinduism, claiming that it was barbaric because it peddled casteism by birth. Since this forum is visited by essentially fairly well informed indivisuals, and since some of them have quite authoritively countered this canard, Dalit argues that her diatribe is based on the "Behaviour" of the Hindus, and not on what the texts say!! Mind you, if the christians and Muslims are intolerant and cussed, in fact, even if the Muslims indulge in narco terrorism, the glib spiel is that these are "Great" religions but have third rate followers! Such double standards must be appalling to most, but are part of the Dalit psyche, so I am not surprised by such perversity.
The uncharacteristically (by Hindu standards) shrill protestations and rejoinders by 'Babu let the cat out of the bag and confirmed what I have always maintained---the main goal of this diatribe against Hinduism is to somehow make the good natured and simple hearted Hindus feel 'guilty', and confused, so that the dalits and their campfollowers can go on sucking the blood of the hapless hindus and make it appear as 'perfectly justified'.
I think it is better to profess a 'BARBARIC' religion that
inculcates traditional values like self-respect, self-independence and respect for honest labour, instead of a 'SOPHISTICATED' religion that spews forth self centered, devious, lazy parasites.
As for Dalit's lofty proclamation that the dalits will stop reservations etc. 'after they have achieved equality', it is pure, unadulterated crap. To begin with, what kind of equality?-a) Hindus being pulled down to the level of the dalits?--but then who will feed and clothe the dalits?
b) Dalits rising to the level of the Hindus?--that's impossible. After all, Dalit is a state of the mind, otherwise all these Ambedkars and Paswans and Athavles, even after enjoying the spoils of power and various privileges, for decades on end, wouldn't have jostled to stand for elections as Dalits, very often, from 'reserved' constituencies?!!
Even Dalit's statement that she will never avail of more privileges, should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Unhappily for Dalit, the winds of change have started blowing over the country; privatisation and reduction in Govt. jobs is slowly but surely changing the equations.
Already the dalits have started coming on to the streets for rasta-rokos etc.. to ensure MORE Govt. jobs, no privatisation etc..
Who knows, some day our country might actually turn the corner and achieve all that we are actually capable of, and the 'Barbaric' Hindus will, as usual, be making a handsome contribution towards this goal.

:rolleyes:

tantric_yogi

April 20th, 2001, 03:18 AM

I have Dalit and F. Anal and Suhagini on IGNORE.
I find them ordinary people living mundane lives
coming here and pretending to be mensans.

tantric prefers company of NON-FDS Aurangia and Battoor Intelligent but ordinary and exciting...

Shringarey

April 21st, 2001, 03:45 PM

rational thinker,

After all, Dalit is a state of the mind, otherwise all these Ambedkars and Paswans and Athavles, even after enjoying the spoils of power and various privileges, for decades on end,

There was a study conducted called 'Peak Performance', to determine the influence of belief systems on material prosperity. This study conducted by an American Prof assistewd by an 18-yr old Indian assistant was conducted amongst Dalits in a community. The Dalits were as poor as doormice. Nearly 500 Dalits were interviewed and they were rated on confidence (Complete Apathy to Brimming Self-Confidence). It was found that the 'apathy cases' were whiling away their time, while the 'confident' cases were sending children to school at great difficulty. The young assistant proudly showed his results to the American Guru and demonstrated how mind affects personal effectiveness.

The Guru was wiser. He did not take the study at face value but insisted that more investigations be done. Why were there differences in mindset? Further study revealed something! The Dalits were not identical. Those with a 'positive mindset' usually had something that the others did not - a cow, or a sheep or 1/4 acre of land, a beedi-shop, etc given by some social worker. This thing, created a surplus (very small), security(very small) and enabled them to educate their children. So much for 'Dalit being a state of mind!'. If I have a couple of crores in the bank, see how my 'state of mind' soars!!

This story is true. I can vouch for it. After all, that young and foolish assistant was me.

Shring.
(PS: Not young any longer - foolish?Mebbe)

rationalthinker

April 22nd, 2001, 12:41 PM

Dear Shring'
The people I cited were 'leaders' who have been in the limelight and enjoyed privileges that VERY FEW (of ANY caste or community) have ever managed or will ever manage to enjoy.
YET they continue to parade as underprivileged, deprived DALITS-- This is either depraved super cynicism or (a more charitable inference) a state of the mind. I was merely giving them the benefit of doubt.
In a depressingly poor country like India, poverty and deprivation are the norm rather than an exception.
It exists in ALL communities and castes (maybe not amongst the brahmins---Agarkar and Shastri were mere showoffs!?!!). It is nobody's case that the underprivileged should not get any assistance to improve their lot.BUT HOW CAN CASTE BE THE CRITERION FOR SUCH HELP?
If privileges based on caste were wrong, then, concessions and reservations based on caste are just as wrong. How can two wrongs make a right? (This is not algebra!!)
What is particularly galling is that even though the Hindus, in their endeavour to help build a Modern, Progressive India, discarded Manu, Dayabhag, Mitakshara etc.., and adopted a Model Code principally prepared by a rabid Hindu-hater like Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, the non-Hindu leaders of virtually all communities, especially the various dalit factions, continue to berate them as 'Manuvadis' etc.. and demand more and more sops and goodies on the basis of caste. Is it moral?
Incidently, regarding the 'state of the mind' bit, Martin Page, in his best seller'The Company Savage", quotes the example of the Ibos from Nigeria: They form less than 10% of Nigeria, and had nothing to distinguish them from the more numerous Hausa and Yoruba, and yet, in less than 100 yrs. ,"rose to such a position of dominance over the whole nation that the Ibos commanded the armed forces, occupied most of the top jobs in the civil service, and ran the country's railways,education, medecine, the law, banking and trade at all levels". Later on he says"As an indivisual, an Ibo can have the most humble opinion of his own abilities. But to a large extent because of a thought process that goes:'Ibos are smarter than Yorubas and Hausas.I am an Ibo, so I must be smart', they were able self-confidently to move in on their neighbours under Pax Britannica and effectively took them over"

Shringarey

April 22nd, 2001, 01:02 PM

Rational Thinker,

I want to give an example of the Electronics Industry. As you know, the electronics are hand-made, low level of automation and reserved for the small-scale sector in India. The prices are hence very high. There is talk of dereserving the industry. But as most of the employees are Dalits, they would be affected and the Dalits are raising Holy Cain. If we go in for dereservation, the prices would fall by 50% (to half). Imagine a radio costing half the price! How many poor people in the villages would be able to buy a radio? There is a direct relation between radio consumption and AIDS (As radio increases awareness). In order to save 200,000 Dalit jobs how many poor people (incuding Dalits) are going to die? Think !!!

And when the people die - who will be blamed? Brahmins! Manuvaadis!! Continuation of the cycle!!!

Few Dalits prosper. Lots of poor die. Brahmins take the blame and get a Bamboo in their Tumboo. Shring sits back and sees it all.

Shring.

Shringarey

April 22nd, 2001, 01:23 PM

Dalit,

What, I am trying to say is. If reservation can do good to me, then could be good to other dalits too.

What sort of analysis is that? Suppose a man murders someone, takes his purse, feeds his family, looks at himself and says "Murder did good for me. It must be good" That is faulty analysis. You have to look at the sum total effect. I will give an example of effect of reservation in S/W sector :

1. Because a person got reserved seat, another lost it. If he got elsewhere, that person lost it. One gain, one loss. Equal so far.

2. Consider the % of non-reserved and reserved candidates who are on overseas projects.

Reserved = 20% overseas
Non-Reserved = 50% overseas

These are FICTITIOUS FIGURES. Im just talking about methodology here.

3. Based on these 'Differentials' the Dollar Exports would increase by $1.5 billion (Say - Fig. Fictitious)

4. Increase in $ Exports would strenthen Rupee from 1$=Rs 45 to 1$=Rs40 (say)

5. Cost of Kerosine would come down by 10% due to lower Dollar.

6. million poor families would get cheaper Kerosine. Their children would be able to study instead of foraging for food. Tree cover would improve. Literacy would improve, etcetc - a lot of them Dalits.

I am just giving an example. It could very well happen that Reservation HELPS THE CAUSE I dunno. But just saying that it helped me so it is good is wrong - faulty analysis.

This was the problem with Ambedkar. He talked and talked but never made any analysis. If he was any other leader, it is OK - no comment. But he was a product of LSE - a great and exalted institution. More is expected from its alumnii. He went to Columbia Univ before LSE. And the 'havaa' of CU never left him - they have such loose talk. Their chief economist is a poet!! You may have noticed that there is a bust of Dr Ambedkar in CU - there won't be one in LSE - you can bet on that!!

I remember one 'great leader' was justifying the nationalization of coal mines saying they provide good schools. Rs 8500 crores pa down the drain to provide 12 schools? What logic is that!! Its loose talk like this that gets India into trouble. Loose talk initiated by Nehru, Bhimrao, Menon, Mukherjee, Dange, etc.

Shring

Shringarey

April 22nd, 2001, 03:53 PM

RationalThinker,

Dalit argues that her diatribe is based on the "Behaviour" of the Hindus, and not on what the texts say!! Mind you, if the christians and Muslims are intolerant and cussed, in fact, even if the Muslims indulge in narco terrorism, the glib spiel is that these are "Great" religions but have third rate followers! Such double standards must be appalling to most, but are part of the Dalit psyche, so I am not surprised by such perversity.

I agree with you on this point. This 'double standard' is very noticeable amongst the Ambedkarites. Here are some eg.

Eg.1

1. When a Muslim hits a Hindu - Baal Thakrey says - 'these Muslims are like that. They have to be punished' But when a Hindu hits a Muslim he says 'The stronger man wins - law of the jungle'.
2. When a Jew stole, Hitler claimed 'he has to be punished - the thief!', when a German stole he claimed 'What can he do - poor fella, the Jews have taken all property'.
3. When a poor unemployed illiterate Brahmin, resorts to palmistry to ward off hunger, Ambedkar claimed it 'as an example of Brahminical cruelty'. When a Dalit stole or killed, he claimed 'What can he do - poor felaa. Give him a job - he will not steal!'

ALL these are examples of fundamentalism. You cannot say the first 2 are wrong and the 3rd is right!!

Eg.2

1.Hitler whipped up a frenzy against the jews citing an incident that took place 1900 years before (betrayal of Chritians in 64AD), and wanted reparations!!
2.Baal Thakrey cited an event that took place in 1692AD (Torture of Sambhajee) to claim reparations from Muslims and tyrannise them!!
3. RSS claimed an event that took place in 1460 (?) (Destruction of Raam Temple) and claimed reparations and rectifications of past wrong.
4. Ambedkar raised an issue that took place 4000 yrs ago (destruction of Eklavya's thumb) to whip up a frenzy and claim reparations.

Either all are right or all are wrong. You cannot claim first 3 wrong and the last one right!!

Eg 3.
Hitler : "All Jews are evil - they torture their fellow beings. Some liberals claim that there are some jews who are good and some Germans who are evil. True. But those jews who are good, I will classify them as Germans and those Germans who are evils are jewish in temperament. By jews I mean all people who are against the fatherland' (Mein Kamph)

Baal Thackerey : 'These Muslims have to be killed and destroyed. By Muslims I mean all those who are anti-India. If a Muslim is anti-India, I will not consider him a muslim, like the Bohris. And if a Hindu is anti-India, he is a Muslim for all practical purposes' (Saamanaa 1998)

Ambedkar : There are in my view two enemies which the workers of this country have to deal with. The two enemies are Brahmanism and Capitalism…By Brahmanism I do not mean the power, privileges and interests of the Brahmans as a community. By Brahmanism I mean the negation of the spirit of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. In that sense it is rampant in all classes and is not confined to the Brahmans alone, though they have been the originators of it” (TOI, February 14, 1938)

Sounds familiar ?

Eg 4

Germany, 1936 : The rule of Swastika. Idolization of Hitler. Treating him as God.
Mumbai, 1998 : Rule of Shivajee. His Idolization. Trating him as God. Treating Marathas as Shivajee's Children
India, 2001 : Rule of Ambedkar. His Idolization. Trating him as God.

Same frenzy, same craziness, same illogic.

Eg 5

1. Quamir Vazee pisses on the idol of Jaggannath
2. Baal Thackrey destroys the Quoran
3. Advani Destroys Babri Masjid
4. Hitler Burns Synagogues
5. Ambedkar burns Hindu Scriptures.

Somehow 1-4 are wrong and 5th is right!!

I can go on and on and on.....

It is important to understand whether I am being 'intellectual and smart' or genuine. Are these examples superficial - sounding wonderful but meaning nothing? Or are these examples genuine. Think. See the frenzy - Mayawati's Ambedkar statue binge - reservation - one sided laws - hatred , etc, etc. I believe that deep down it is a horrible 21st century fundamentalism !!!

Shring
(PS Next time note on how this fundamentalism will end. But I need comments OK?)

BABU_HYDERABADI

April 23rd, 2001, 12:06 PM

Wah Bhai wah,
Man gaye ustadd, iske liye lelo ek :beer:,man u are a true research scholar, kya mari he ustaad tumne Dalit madam ki ya jo kuch bi ho.:D:D
Yesterday night saw the match of lewis and rehman, the post u wote was like the last shot that rehman gave to lewis. Chelo take one more glass of :beer:
Shring bhai hats of to you and ur post.:D:D

Chelo i think this should shut the mouth of dalit madam. :p
Dalit madam apka answer kya he iske liye batao to sahi, aaj kal aap ke post dikayi nahi de rahe he kya sharam ke mare aapne mu chupake raka to nahi. are madam ji, aap to bade busdil nikle. Dar gaye kya:confused::confused: :confused: :confused: :

Shringarey

April 23rd, 2001, 01:00 PM

Babu_Hyderabadi,

Man gaye ustadd, iske liye lelo ek :beer:,man u are a true research scholar, kya mari he ustaad tumne Dalit madam ki ya jo kuch bi ho.

The objective is NOT to marofy Dalit Madam/Sir. I am writing because I am genuinely concerned for the country. There are some things I cannot say, dare not say openly because I could be jailed under the Untouchability Act. That is why the anonymous media.

Basically I am NOT against reservations per se. Ambedkarites T-I-M-I-N-G stinks!! There is NO analysis done. The fact is that if Indians consume fish as much as the US, they would eat the whole fish supply of the world. Ditto chicken. Ditto meat. That will not happen. Way before it happens food prices in Europe/US would rise. These countries WILL NOT allow it to happen. Guess what I am saying?

As long as 22.5% reservation for SC/ST was there - OK. But with OBC at an INCORRECT timing I am worrying. I feel we are going to see mass deaths in India in a couple of decades. See?

I tried talking to people I was ridiculed "We the people - not we the experts" they said. I persisted. I was threatened to be jailed for insult to Ambedkar. I kept quiet. No more talk. I know that I am a coward for keeping quiet. But Im an ordinary fella - not a politician. I see a mass-destruction of the poor coming - we predicted super-mortality in USSR and were ridiculed. See what happenned?

I feel sad. Really sad. Also guilty for being a coward. But this much I have sworn. I will open schools for STs in India. I had given myself till 2000, but I have escaped a near bankruptcy (Asian Flu wiped out my business) and I am starting over. It will take about 3 yrs for my school. I hope Allah favours me this time.

Allah Hafiz

Shring

rationalthinker

April 23rd, 2001, 07:46 PM

Dear Shring,
Basically I didn't know how to respond to you because you were agreeing with everything that I was saying AND reiterated it with examples etc..
Now that you talk of an ALTERNATIVE, which too I advocate I shall be able to 'respond'.
But for that we ought to start a new thread.
My only comment regarding the 22.5% Dalits etc.. is that a country,particularly a democracy, especially in these highly competitive times, should not be run by numbers alone. Quality ("informedness" and efficacy) should be the only criteria for a truly enlightening leadership. For this, the one man one vote policy is absolutely wrong. I have more bacteria inside my colon than are people in this world, but Iwill have to be a totally gone case to let them decide MY LIFE, let alone others'.
Anyway, as I said earlier on, lets open a new thread "to save INDIA!!!"
Jai Hind Phor That!:cool: :cool: :cool: :D